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Bitcoins - anyone else mining? (1 Viewer)

Actually, here's the original paper by the RSA guys.

http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bithogs.pdf

Page 11 talks about basically every large transaction stemming from a single 90K transaction made on November 10th 2010.

Other findings (Page 7):

- 78% were in savings accounts that never did any transactions.

- 36% of all owners recieved less than 1 BTC in their lifetime, 52% fewer than 10, and 88% fewer than 100.

- 4 owners received over 800,000 BTC's and 80 received over 400,000. And based on the findings from that 90K transaction, those owners seemed to like to pass around large amounts of them back and forth, never letting them hit the general public.

I wonder if there's any way to bring these guys up for fraud if they can prove they intentionally swindled people out of piles of money...and actually prove who this "Satoshi" entity is...
So you are citing a document from a year ago? (October 18, 2012) That references transactions from 3 years ago? (November 8th 2010)

Is your assertion from this document that when a quantum computer is built that bitcoin is doomed?

If you are referring to mixing bitcoins (into various wallets) this is also a pretty well known procedure.

There's quite a few comments on the paper you linked here (again from a year ago)

I'm not going to comment about the bitcoin market from 2010 - to be honest nothing would surprise me, the market was very immature then - what was btc trading at in the cents per bitcoin or something? However if you want to provide some sort of evidence / proof / anything credible that the market today in 2013 is being manipulated then please do. You are talking about stuff that happened in the first few months of bitcoin - price history when a bitcoin was valued at less than a cent to as high as 8 cents.

It wasn't until:

Feb 2011 – April 2011 $1 Bitcoin takes parity with US dollar

.
Also, on this one, as I've noted - the bitcoins weren't actually trading for several cents a piece. Maybe a few - people claim to have bought some in 2009 - but the first "recognized transaction" was the Laszlo pizza deal which may or may not have actually happened.

They floated the slashdot mention of v.3 on July 11th of 2010 and then launched Mt Gox almost immediately afterwards. But even then none of them were actually moving. The raw data on the number of BTC traded is available here, click load raw data at the bottom and you'll see very few of them really moving during that time: http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#tgSzm1g10zm2g25zv

A couple thousand a day here, a couple thousand a day there, a day where it went above 10K was rare. Mind you - there's 6 million of these things out there at this point, so that's less than .1% of the current amount "in circulation". Until all of the sudden starting in early October of 2010 they started trading in the 10's of thousands a day while the price just shoots up. Here's a look at the number of transactions per block at Garzik's site, indicating a very clear pattern of unusual activity around October/November of 2010 where things start jumping there: https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-per-block?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=

The spike in activity after the slashdot v.3 mention is somewhat explainable. You see a spike in the sourceforge downloads, we know slashdot can bring a lot of people in, great (though it is strange the volume traded stayed the same or accelerated even after that flurry of transactions had passed). The late 2010 activity that happened right as it starts running up (and right where this 90K transaction comes from) isn't explainable. There is no jump in the sourceforge download history to justify this. There is no subsequent activity that looks anything like it - it drops back to almost 0, and they don't trade again at that rate until 2012. Nothing all that significant happened to bring people in until the "Parity with US Dollar" article. Looks pretty clearly like someone's forcing a jump with their large pile of coins...and there's only a couple accounts that are even capable of moving these coins like this.

http://sourceforge.n...1 to 2013-12-20

 
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I do like this quote from Garzik though:

"Any bitcoins that are permanently lost, due to wallet deletion, also appear within the data as old, unmoved coins. One cannot distinguish between unspent "coins under the mattress" and lost/destroyed coins."

So when we say that 50 guys control xxx%, that doesn't even take into account that many of these technically don't even exist anymore. So it's actually worse than that. :lmao:
How is that a bad thing?Between lost btc's and only half way through the 21MM release cycle it kind of nullifies your point.
Because each person's share is larger than what is described by the number issued. And no one even knows how much.
Exactly, it is more likely the losses come from the larger holders.

What % of the world's gold does the U.S. "control"? and why doesn't this concern you regarding the gold market...

Finally nobody is saying regulation for btc is a bad thing.

It just seems you like to say the sky is falling because you were not an early investor, neither was I.

 
I do like this quote from Garzik though:

"Any bitcoins that are permanently lost, due to wallet deletion, also appear within the data as old, unmoved coins. One cannot distinguish between unspent "coins under the mattress" and lost/destroyed coins."

So when we say that 50 guys control xxx%, that doesn't even take into account that many of these technically don't even exist anymore. So it's actually worse than that. :lmao:
How is that a bad thing?Between lost btc's and only half way through the 21MM release cycle it kind of nullifies your point.
Because each person's share is larger than what is described by the number issued. And no one even knows how much.
Exactly, it is more likely the losses come from the larger holders.

What % of the world's gold does the U.S. "control"? and why doesn't this concern you regarding the gold market...

Finally nobody is saying regulation for btc is a bad thing.

It just seems you like to say the sky is falling because you were not an early investor, neither was I.
No, I'm saying this is a hoax because of the information I'm finding on this. I'd be more than happy to discuss the merit of any of this data, but you don't seem capable of holding that sort of conversation.

 
yeah, I don't understand your thinking at all.

everybody piling on is simply throwing money at a get rich quick scheme, same as buying scratch tix --- you aren't taking anyone's money, they're giving it, and that's assuming you cash out and the thing actually crashes instead of continuing upwards.

I think most playing poker would regard it as a game of skill, and that's basically what playing markets is.

do you avoid 'investing' in any market 'cuz some guy loses money in it?
I'm not some final authority on any of this, so do whatever you're comfortable with. There's a thread from around the April point of this year on their forums called "Mistakes you've made with bitcoin". One of the guys said his friend was retiring around the time these were at $5 and asked him if it would be a good idea to put $5,000 into this to diversify his portfolio. He advised against it. I'd hate to be the guy that causes you to not be rich when they're the new world currency and worth 1 million dollars each and the dollar no longer exists. Especially if that's what will make you happy in life. But to me, it just doesn't seem all that honest. As for Litecoins - just realize, the world's not big enough for 2 currencies and everything you own might evaporate overnight if you don't get this right. So choose wisely.
you did see that link that there are like 100 or so of these now, right?

 
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I do like this quote from Garzik though:

"Any bitcoins that are permanently lost, due to wallet deletion, also appear within the data as old, unmoved coins. One cannot distinguish between unspent "coins under the mattress" and lost/destroyed coins."

So when we say that 50 guys control xxx%, that doesn't even take into account that many of these technically don't even exist anymore. So it's actually worse than that. :lmao:
How is that a bad thing?Between lost btc's and only half way through the 21MM release cycle it kind of nullifies your point.
Because each person's share is larger than what is described by the number issued. And no one even knows how much.
Exactly, it is more likely the losses come from the larger holders.

What % of the world's gold does the U.S. "control"? and why doesn't this concern you regarding the gold market...

Finally nobody is saying regulation for btc is a bad thing.

It just seems you like to say the sky is falling because you were not an early investor, neither was I.
No, I'm saying this is a hoax because of the information I'm finding on this. I'd be more than happy to discuss the merit of any of this data, but you don't seem capable of holding that sort of conversation.
I don't see the value in arguing over things that might have happened 3 years ago especially when you are talking about a technology that was in its infancy when btc's were trading for 1/10,000th of what they are this year.

I'm still waiting for your link showing us that today's price is manipulated but you keep going back to your speculations from 3 years ago. :shrug:

 
I do like this quote from Garzik though:

"Any bitcoins that are permanently lost, due to wallet deletion, also appear within the data as old, unmoved coins. One cannot distinguish between unspent "coins under the mattress" and lost/destroyed coins."

So when we say that 50 guys control xxx%, that doesn't even take into account that many of these technically don't even exist anymore. So it's actually worse than that. :lmao:
How is that a bad thing?Between lost btc's and only half way through the 21MM release cycle it kind of nullifies your point.
Because each person's share is larger than what is described by the number issued. And no one even knows how much.
Exactly, it is more likely the losses come from the larger holders.

What % of the world's gold does the U.S. "control"? and why doesn't this concern you regarding the gold market...

Finally nobody is saying regulation for btc is a bad thing.

It just seems you like to say the sky is falling because you were not an early investor, neither was I.
No, I'm saying this is a hoax because of the information I'm finding on this. I'd be more than happy to discuss the merit of any of this data, but you don't seem capable of holding that sort of conversation.
I don't see the value in arguing over things that might have happened 3 years ago especially when you are talking about a technology that was in its infancy when btc's were trading for 1/10,000th of what they are this year.

I'm still waiting for your link showing us that today's price is manipulated but you keep going back to your speculations from 3 years ago. :shrug:
What changed between now and then to prevent the same things from continuing to happen?

 
...then TigerDirect

...then NewEgg

I'd guess PayPal would integrate it by Q1 of 2015 which of course would include eBay, possibly late 2014.

Not sure on Amazon time table, Gyft is already working on a chrome extension I believe that would allow you to purchase an Amazon gift card for the exact amount of your purchase and apply it seamlessly.

 
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DrJ said:
Jojo the circus boy said:
DrJ said:
5 digit know nothing said:
DrJ said:
5 digit know nothing said:
DrJ said:
I do like this quote from Garzik though:

"Any bitcoins that are permanently lost, due to wallet deletion, also appear within the data as old, unmoved coins. One cannot distinguish between unspent "coins under the mattress" and lost/destroyed coins."

So when we say that 50 guys control xxx%, that doesn't even take into account that many of these technically don't even exist anymore. So it's actually worse than that. :lmao:
How is that a bad thing?Between lost btc's and only half way through the 21MM release cycle it kind of nullifies your point.
Because each person's share is larger than what is described by the number issued. And no one even knows how much.
Exactly, it is more likely the losses come from the larger holders.

What % of the world's gold does the U.S. "control"? and why doesn't this concern you regarding the gold market...

Finally nobody is saying regulation for btc is a bad thing.

It just seems you like to say the sky is falling because you were not an early investor, neither was I.
No, I'm saying this is a hoax because of the information I'm finding on this. I'd be more than happy to discuss the merit of any of this data, but you don't seem capable of holding that sort of conversation.
I don't see the value in arguing over things that might have happened 3 years ago especially when you are talking about a technology that was in its infancy when btc's were trading for 1/10,000th of what they are this year.

I'm still waiting for your link showing us that today's price is manipulated but you keep going back to your speculations from 3 years ago. :shrug:
What changed between now and then to prevent the same things from continuing to happen?
Trading rules for one, MtGox has matured significantly since it's launch - you don't have nearly the same liquidity as when it first launched. Do you really think nothing has changed between when MtGox launched and today? :lmao:

 
Last edited by a moderator:
DrJ said:
Jojo the circus boy said:
DrJ said:
5 digit know nothing said:
DrJ said:
5 digit know nothing said:
DrJ said:
I do like this quote from Garzik though:

"Any bitcoins that are permanently lost, due to wallet deletion, also appear within the data as old, unmoved coins. One cannot distinguish between unspent "coins under the mattress" and lost/destroyed coins."

So when we say that 50 guys control xxx%, that doesn't even take into account that many of these technically don't even exist anymore. So it's actually worse than that. :lmao:
How is that a bad thing?Between lost btc's and only half way through the 21MM release cycle it kind of nullifies your point.
Because each person's share is larger than what is described by the number issued. And no one even knows how much.
Exactly, it is more likely the losses come from the larger holders.

What % of the world's gold does the U.S. "control"? and why doesn't this concern you regarding the gold market...

Finally nobody is saying regulation for btc is a bad thing.

It just seems you like to say the sky is falling because you were not an early investor, neither was I.
No, I'm saying this is a hoax because of the information I'm finding on this. I'd be more than happy to discuss the merit of any of this data, but you don't seem capable of holding that sort of conversation.
I don't see the value in arguing over things that might have happened 3 years ago especially when you are talking about a technology that was in its infancy when btc's were trading for 1/10,000th of what they are this year.

I'm still waiting for your link showing us that today's price is manipulated but you keep going back to your speculations from 3 years ago. :shrug:
What changed between now and then to prevent the same things from continuing to happen?
Trading rules for one, MtGox has matured significantly since it's launch - you don't have nearly the same liquidity as when it first launched. Do you really think nothing has changed between when MtGox launched and today? :lmao:
So basically - "it's better".

 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Rove! said:
...then TigerDirect

...then NewEgg

I'd guess PayPal would integrate it by Q1 of 2015 which of course would include eBay, possibly late 2014.

Not sure on Amazon time table, Gyft is already working on a chrome extension I believe that would allow you to purchase an Amazon gift card for the exact amount of your purchase and apply it seamlessly.
Damn, I'm all out of bitcoins, but I'm sure the system will also accept LiteCoins, DigiCoins, Bottcaps, Gold Bullion Coins, World Coins, and Peer Coins as well so I should be alright.

 
DrJ said:
Jojo the circus boy said:
DrJ said:
5 digit know nothing said:
DrJ said:
5 digit know nothing said:
DrJ said:
I do like this quote from Garzik though:

"Any bitcoins that are permanently lost, due to wallet deletion, also appear within the data as old, unmoved coins. One cannot distinguish between unspent "coins under the mattress" and lost/destroyed coins."

So when we say that 50 guys control xxx%, that doesn't even take into account that many of these technically don't even exist anymore. So it's actually worse than that. :lmao:
How is that a bad thing?Between lost btc's and only half way through the 21MM release cycle it kind of nullifies your point.
Because each person's share is larger than what is described by the number issued. And no one even knows how much.
Exactly, it is more likely the losses come from the larger holders.

What % of the world's gold does the U.S. "control"? and why doesn't this concern you regarding the gold market...

Finally nobody is saying regulation for btc is a bad thing.

It just seems you like to say the sky is falling because you were not an early investor, neither was I.
No, I'm saying this is a hoax because of the information I'm finding on this. I'd be more than happy to discuss the merit of any of this data, but you don't seem capable of holding that sort of conversation.
I don't see the value in arguing over things that might have happened 3 years ago especially when you are talking about a technology that was in its infancy when btc's were trading for 1/10,000th of what they are this year.

I'm still waiting for your link showing us that today's price is manipulated but you keep going back to your speculations from 3 years ago. :shrug:
What changed between now and then to prevent the same things from continuing to happen?
Trading rules for one, MtGox has matured significantly since it's launch - you don't have nearly the same liquidity as when it first launched. Do you really think nothing has changed between when MtGox launched and today? :lmao:
So basically - "it's better".
The DDoS attacks which manipulated the prices has been fixed, they fixed the issue with multiple small transactions going through (via DDoS). I'm not sure if this is the same thing you are pointing to. But lack of any new information you can provide to show prices are being manipulated today I'm writing off your concern as a non-issue. I don't even want to bother digging through the stuff you found about what might have happened when BTC's were trading in the cents, like I said there were problems with the exchanges in the early days, this is not new news, everyone knows about the early spikes and drops at MtGox due to DDoS attacks. Having prices fluctuate on news announcements like China is certainly not price manipulation by some puppeteers. Online retailers do not need to wait until btc price stabilizes to use it as a payment platform since they are not holding on to btc's and don't have to worry about losing money, they will only save money in a much lower fee structure.

 
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Jojo the circus boy said:
Rove! said:
...then TigerDirect

...then NewEgg

I'd guess PayPal would integrate it by Q1 of 2015 which of course would include eBay, possibly late 2014.

Not sure on Amazon time table, Gyft is already working on a chrome extension I believe that would allow you to purchase an Amazon gift card for the exact amount of your purchase and apply it seamlessly.
Damn, I'm all out of bitcoins, but I'm sure the system will also accept LiteCoins, DigiCoins, Bottcaps, Gold Bullion Coins, World Coins, and Peer Coins as well so I should be alright.
You are really ignorant on this subject. You have no idea about the infrastructure required nor do you understand the current gap that exists between bitcoin and the #2 digital currency's network.

 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Rove! said:
...then TigerDirect...then NewEggI'd guess PayPal would integrate it by Q1 of 2015 which of course would include eBay, possibly late 2014.Not sure on Amazon time table, Gyft is already working on a chrome extension I believe that would allow you to purchase an Amazon gift card for the exact amount of your purchase and apply it seamlessly.
Damn, I'm all out of bitcoins, but I'm sure the system will also accept LiteCoins, DigiCoins, Bottcaps, Gold Bullion Coins, World Coins, and Peer Coins as well so I should be alright.
You are really ignorant on this subject. You have no idea about the infrastructure required nor do you understand the current gap that exists between bitcoin and the #2 digital currency's network.
You're the one that's clearly ignorant. I don't even think you're capable of grasping the technical aspects of this system or it's currency, honestly. I've been a Linux geek for 15 years and even I'm not entirely capable of understanding what a lot of these security geeks talk about without some research, and here you are entirely clueless and still willing to spout off a bunch of crap.
 
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If you want a more recent "quirk", how about Dec 6 2013?

http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/06/bitcoin-value-loses-its-mind-as-trading-lags-on-the-mt-gox-exchange/

40 minute lags and the value bouncing up and down in a nice little pattern? Now, not even getting into that strange trading pattern, how is this going to scale when all of these online retailers are causing more transactions. That's still a problem that as far as I know hasn't been solved.
And how is this proof of manipulation? Doesn't the price need to go up or down for it to be manipulated? Jeebus, whenever there is a blip on the chart you are going to come in here crying manipulation?

 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Rove! said:
...then TigerDirect...then NewEggI'd guess PayPal would integrate it by Q1 of 2015 which of course would include eBay, possibly late 2014.Not sure on Amazon time table, Gyft is already working on a chrome extension I believe that would allow you to purchase an Amazon gift card for the exact amount of your purchase and apply it seamlessly.
Damn, I'm all out of bitcoins, but I'm sure the system will also accept LiteCoins, DigiCoins, Bottcaps, Gold Bullion Coins, World Coins, and Peer Coins as well so I should be alright.
You are really ignorant on this subject. You have no idea about the infrastructure required nor do you understand the current gap that exists between bitcoin and the #2 digital currency's network.
You're the one that's clearly ignorant. I don't even think you're capable of grasping the technical aspects of this system or it's currency, honestly. I've been a Linux geek for 15 years and even I'm not entirely capable of understanding what a lot of these security geeks talk about without some research, and here you are entirely clueless and still willing to spout off a bunch of crap.
I'm not the one listing off irrelevant alt's assuming any website accepting orders in Bitcoin will accept your alt thinking you are just using silver instead of gold. :doh:

 
If you want a more recent "quirk", how about Dec 6 2013?http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/06/bitcoin-value-loses-its-mind-as-trading-lags-on-the-mt-gox-exchange/40 minute lags and the value bouncing up and down in a nice little pattern? Now, not even getting into that strange trading pattern, how is this going to scale when all of these online retailers are causing more transactions. That's still a problem that as far as I know hasn't been solved.
And how is this proof of manipulation? Doesn't the price need to go up or down for it to be manipulated? Jeebus, whenever there is a blip on the chart you are going to come in here crying manipulation?
I said I was willing to overlook the strange trading pattern. So, about that scalability problem.

 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Rove! said:
...then TigerDirect

...then NewEgg

I'd guess PayPal would integrate it by Q1 of 2015 which of course would include eBay, possibly late 2014.

Not sure on Amazon time table, Gyft is already working on a chrome extension I believe that would allow you to purchase an Amazon gift card for the exact amount of your purchase and apply it seamlessly.
"It's a possibility"

"How bad do you want it? #RT this and show us...GO!"

Pretty solid confirmations there. :)

 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Rove! said:
...then TigerDirect

...then NewEgg

I'd guess PayPal would integrate it by Q1 of 2015 which of course would include eBay, possibly late 2014.

Not sure on Amazon time table, Gyft is already working on a chrome extension I believe that would allow you to purchase an Amazon gift card for the exact amount of your purchase and apply it seamlessly.
Damn, I'm all out of bitcoins, but I'm sure the system will also accept LiteCoins, DigiCoins, Bottcaps, Gold Bullion Coins, World Coins, and Peer Coins as well so I should be alright.
You are really ignorant on this subject. You have no idea about the infrastructure required nor do you understand the current gap that exists between bitcoin and the #2 digital currency's network.
Typical bitloon deflections :lol:

 
If you want a more recent "quirk", how about Dec 6 2013?http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/06/bitcoin-value-loses-its-mind-as-trading-lags-on-the-mt-gox-exchange/40 minute lags and the value bouncing up and down in a nice little pattern? Now, not even getting into that strange trading pattern, how is this going to scale when all of these online retailers are causing more transactions. That's still a problem that as far as I know hasn't been solved.
And how is this proof of manipulation? Doesn't the price need to go up or down for it to be manipulated? Jeebus, whenever there is a blip on the chart you are going to come in here crying manipulation?
I said I was willing to overlook the strange trading pattern. So, about that scalability problem.
:lmao: you don't think the bitcoin network scales? You do understand that the Mt.Gox trading exchange ≠ the bitcoin network, right?
 
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Jojo the circus boy said:
Rove! said:
...then TigerDirect

...then NewEgg

I'd guess PayPal would integrate it by Q1 of 2015 which of course would include eBay, possibly late 2014.

Not sure on Amazon time table, Gyft is already working on a chrome extension I believe that would allow you to purchase an Amazon gift card for the exact amount of your purchase and apply it seamlessly.
"It's a possibility"

"How bad do you want it? #RT this and show us...GO!"

Pretty solid confirmations there. :)
Why would you doubt they are working on solutions to lower their current costs? Overstock has come forward to say they are working on integrating it. PayPal CEO has already spoke about integrating BTC. Keep your head in the sand, it is working well for you. :thumbup:

 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Rove! said:
...then TigerDirect...then NewEggI'd guess PayPal would integrate it by Q1 of 2015 which of course would include eBay, possibly late 2014.Not sure on Amazon time table, Gyft is already working on a chrome extension I believe that would allow you to purchase an Amazon gift card for the exact amount of your purchase and apply it seamlessly.
Damn, I'm all out of bitcoins, but I'm sure the system will also accept LiteCoins, DigiCoins, Bottcaps, Gold Bullion Coins, World Coins, and Peer Coins as well so I should be alright.
You are really ignorant on this subject. You have no idea about the infrastructure required nor do you understand the current gap that exists between bitcoin and the #2 digital currency's network.
You're the one that's clearly ignorant. I don't even think you're capable of grasping the technical aspects of this system or it's currency, honestly. I've been a Linux geek for 15 years and even I'm not entirely capable of understanding what a lot of these security geeks talk about without some research, and here you are entirely clueless and still willing to spout off a bunch of crap.
I'm not the one listing off irrelevant alt's assuming any website accepting orders in Bitcoin will accept your alt thinking you are just using silver instead of gold. :doh:
They're all worth the same thing, the other ones just have more room to deflate.

 
If you want a more recent "quirk", how about Dec 6 2013?http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/06/bitcoin-value-loses-its-mind-as-trading-lags-on-the-mt-gox-exchange/40 minute lags and the value bouncing up and down in a nice little pattern? Now, not even getting into that strange trading pattern, how is this going to scale when all of these online retailers are causing more transactions. That's still a problem that as far as I know hasn't been solved.
And how is this proof of manipulation? Doesn't the price need to go up or down for it to be manipulated? Jeebus, whenever there is a blip on the chart you are going to come in here crying manipulation?
I said I was willing to overlook the strange trading pattern. So, about that scalability problem.
:lmao: you don't think the bitcoin network scales? You do understand that the Mt.Gox trading exchange ≠ the bitcoin network, right?
No, I don't. Do you know what the scalability concerns are from a technical perspective, in even the slightest?

 
And mojo, I'm going to be nice and give you a hint. Right now the peak is 600 transactions per block. I have a 20Mb/s Internet connection and it took me a few hours to download even the Litecoin block chain. What happens when there's a million per block? 10 million? 100 million?

I'll give you extra credit for finding Satoshi's answer to this concern.

 
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If you want a more recent "quirk", how about Dec 6 2013?http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/06/bitcoin-value-loses-its-mind-as-trading-lags-on-the-mt-gox-exchange/40 minute lags and the value bouncing up and down in a nice little pattern? Now, not even getting into that strange trading pattern, how is this going to scale when all of these online retailers are causing more transactions. That's still a problem that as far as I know hasn't been solved.
And how is this proof of manipulation? Doesn't the price need to go up or down for it to be manipulated? Jeebus, whenever there is a blip on the chart you are going to come in here crying manipulation?
I said I was willing to overlook the strange trading pattern. So, about that scalability problem.
:lmao: you don't think the bitcoin network scales? You do understand that the Mt.Gox trading exchange ≠ the bitcoin network, right?
No, I don't. Do you know what the scalability concerns are from a technical perspective, in even the slightest?
So long as hardware advances outpace Bitcoin usage there will be no scalability concerns. How many tps do you need? Visa handles about 2000tps with a daily peak of 4000tps, busiest points of the holiday period are about ~8500tps.

PayPal, in contrast, handles around 4 million transactions per day for an average of 46 tps or a probably peak rate of 100 tps.

Bitcoin: as of late 2012 the network is handling 0.5 transactions/second, and as of 2013 this has doubled to 1 transaction/second.

What is your concern, CPU, Network, or Storage?

CPU

The protocol has two parts. Nodes send "inv" messages to other nodes telling them they have a new transaction. If the receiving node doesn't have that transaction it requests it with a getdata.

The big cost is the crypto and block chain lookups involved with verifying the transaction. Verifying a transaction means some hashing and some ECDSA signature verifications. RIPEMD-160 runs at 106 megabytes/sec (call it 100 for simplicity) and SHA256 is about the same. So hashing 1 megabyte should take around 10 milliseconds and hashing 1 kilobyte would take 0.01 milliseconds - fast enough that we can ignore it.

Bitcoin is currently able (with a couple of simple optimizations that are prototyped but not merged yet) to perform around 8000 signature verifications per second on an quad core Intel Core i7-2670QM 2.2Ghz processor. The average number of inputs per transaction is around 2, so we must halve the rate. This means 4000 tps is easily achievable CPU-wise with a single fairly mainstream CPU.

As we can see, this means as long as Bitcoin nodes are allowed to max out at least 4 cores of the machines they run on, we will not run out of CPU capacity unless Bitcoin is handling 100 times as much traffic as PayPal. As of late 2012 the network is handling 0.5 transactions/second, so even assuming enormous growth in popularity we will not reach this level for a long time.

Network

Let's assume an average rate of 2000tps, so just VISA. Transactions vary in size from about 0.2 kilobytes to over 1 kilobyte, but it's averaging half a kilobyte today.

That means that you need to keep up with around 8 megabits/second of transaction data (2000tps * 512 bytes) / 1024 bytes in a kilobyte / 1024 kilobytes in a megabyte = 0.97 megabytes per second * 8 = 7.8 megabits/second.

This sort of bandwidth is already common for even residential connections today, and is certainly at the low end of what colocation providers would expect to provide you with.

When blocks are solved, the current protocol will send the transactions again, even if a peer has already seen it at broadcast time. Fixing this to make blocks just list of hashes would resolve the issue and make the bandwidth needed for block broadcast negligable. So whilst this optimization isn't fully implemented today, we do not consider block transmission bandwidth here.

Storage

At very high transaction rates each block can be over half a gigabyte in size.

It is not required for most fully validating nodes to store the entire chain. In Satoshi's paper he describes "pruning", a way to delete unnecessary data about transactions that are fully spent. This reduces the amount of data that is needed for a fully validating node to be only the size of the current unspent output size, plus some additional data that is needed to handle re-orgs. As of October 2012 (block 203258) there have been 7,979,231 transactions, however the size of the unspent output set is less than 100MiB, which is small enough to easily fit in RAM for even quite old computers.

Only a small number of archival nodes need to store the full chain going back to the genesis block. These nodes can be used to bootstrap new fully validating nodes from scratch but are otherwise unnecessary.

The primary limiting factor in Bitcoin's performance is disk seeks once the unspent transaction output set stops fitting in memory. It is quite possible that the set will always fit in memory on dedicated server class machines, if hardware advances faster than Bitcoin usage does.

 
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Jojo the circus boy said:
Rove! said:
...then TigerDirect...then NewEggI'd guess PayPal would integrate it by Q1 of 2015 which of course would include eBay, possibly late 2014.Not sure on Amazon time table, Gyft is already working on a chrome extension I believe that would allow you to purchase an Amazon gift card for the exact amount of your purchase and apply it seamlessly.
Damn, I'm all out of bitcoins, but I'm sure the system will also accept LiteCoins, DigiCoins, Bottcaps, Gold Bullion Coins, World Coins, and Peer Coins as well so I should be alright.
You are really ignorant on this subject. You have no idea about the infrastructure required nor do you understand the current gap that exists between bitcoin and the #2 digital currency's network.
You're the one that's clearly ignorant. I don't even think you're capable of grasping the technical aspects of this system or it's currency, honestly. I've been a Linux geek for 15 years and even I'm not entirely capable of understanding what a lot of these security geeks talk about without some research, and here you are entirely clueless and still willing to spout off a bunch of crap.
I'm not the one listing off irrelevant alt's assuming any website accepting orders in Bitcoin will accept your alt thinking you are just using silver instead of gold. :doh:
They're all worth the same thing, the other ones just have more room to deflate.
They all provide the same value? They all have similar networks of users? They all have the same merchant relations already setup? You can just as easily get in and out of the other currencies? You have access to each of them equally across competing exchanges?

 
If you want a more recent "quirk", how about Dec 6 2013?http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/06/bitcoin-value-loses-its-mind-as-trading-lags-on-the-mt-gox-exchange/40 minute lags and the value bouncing up and down in a nice little pattern? Now, not even getting into that strange trading pattern, how is this going to scale when all of these online retailers are causing more transactions. That's still a problem that as far as I know hasn't been solved.
And how is this proof of manipulation? Doesn't the price need to go up or down for it to be manipulated? Jeebus, whenever there is a blip on the chart you are going to come in here crying manipulation?
I said I was willing to overlook the strange trading pattern. So, about that scalability problem.
:lmao: you don't think the bitcoin network scales? You do understand that the Mt.Gox trading exchange ≠ the bitcoin network, right?
No, I don't. Do you know what the scalability concerns are from a technical perspective, in even the slightest?
So long as hardware advances outpace Bitcoin usage there will be no scalability concerns. How many tps do you need? Visa handles about 2000tps with a daily peak of 4000tps, busiest points of the holiday period are about ~8500tps.PayPal, in contrast, handles around 4 million transactions per day for an average of 46 tps or a probably peak rate of 100 tps.Bitcoin: as of late 2012 the network is handling 0.5 transactions/second.What is your concern, CPU, Network, or Storage?CPUThe protocol has two parts. Nodes send "inv" messages to other nodes telling them they have a new transaction. If the receiving node doesn't have that transaction it requests it with a getdata.The big cost is the crypto and block chain lookups involved with verifying the transaction. Verifying a transaction means some hashing and some ECDSA signature verifications. RIPEMD-160 runs at 106 megabytes/sec (call it 100 for simplicity) and SHA256 is about the same. So hashing 1 megabyte should take around 10 milliseconds and hashing 1 kilobyte would take 0.01 milliseconds - fast enough that we can ignore it.Bitcoin is currently able (with a couple of simple optimizations that are prototyped but not merged yet) to perform around 8000 signature verifications per second on an quad core Intel Core i7-2670QM 2.2Ghz processor. The average number of inputs per transaction is around 2, so we must halve the rate. This means 4000 tps is easily achievable CPU-wise with a single fairly mainstream CPU.As we can see, this means as long as Bitcoin nodes are allowed to max out at least 4 cores of the machines they run on, we will not run out of CPU capacity unless Bitcoin is handling 100 times as much traffic as PayPal. As of late 2012 the network is handling 0.5 transactions/second, so even assuming enormous growth in popularity we will not reach this level for a long time.NetworkLet's assume an average rate of 2000tps, so just VISA. Transactions vary in size from about 0.2 kilobytes to over 1 kilobyte, but it's averaging half a kilobyte today.That means that you need to keep up with around 8 megabits/second of transaction data (2000tps * 512 bytes) / 1024 bytes in a kilobyte / 1024 kilobytes in a megabyte = 0.97 megabytes per second * 8 = 7.8 megabits/second.This sort of bandwidth is already common for even residential connections today, and is certainly at the low end of what colocation providers would expect to provide you with.When blocks are solved, the current protocol will send the transactions again, even if a peer has already seen it at broadcast time. Fixing this to make blocks just list of hashes would resolve the issue and make the bandwidth needed for block broadcast negligable. So whilst this optimization isn't fully implemented today, we do not consider block transmission bandwidth here.StorageAt very high transaction rates each block can be over half a gigabyte in size.It is not required for most fully validating nodes to store the entire chain. In Satoshi's paper he describes "pruning", a way to delete unnecessary data about transactions that are fully spent. This reduces the amount of data that is needed for a fully validating node to be only the size of the current unspent output size, plus some additional data that is needed to handle re-orgs. As of October 2012 (block 203258) there have been 7,979,231 transactions, however the size of the unspent output set is less than 100MiB, which is small enough to easily fit in RAM for even quite old computers.Only a small number of archival nodes need to store the full chain going back to the genesis block. These nodes can be used to bootstrap new fully validating nodes from scratch but are otherwise unnecessary.The primary limiting factor in Bitcoin's performance is disk seeks once the unspent transaction output set stops fitting in memory. It is quite possible that the set will always fit in memory on dedicated server class machines, if hardware advances faster than Bitcoin usage does.
Every single node in this network that is mining / processing / making transactions needs to get the full set of all transactions that take place and agree on a consensus among them, and then incorporate that into the new block chain. This is entirely negligible at 600 transactions each block and a small number of nodes. It's not at 100 million transactions taking place across millions of devices around the entire globe.
 
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Jojo the circus boy said:
Rove! said:
...then TigerDirect

...then NewEgg

I'd guess PayPal would integrate it by Q1 of 2015 which of course would include eBay, possibly late 2014.

Not sure on Amazon time table, Gyft is already working on a chrome extension I believe that would allow you to purchase an Amazon gift card for the exact amount of your purchase and apply it seamlessly.
"It's a possibility"

"How bad do you want it? #RT this and show us...GO!"

Pretty solid confirmations there. :)
Why would you doubt they are working on solutions to lower their current costs? Overstock has come forward to say they are working on integrating it. PayPal CEO has already spoke about integrating BTC. Keep your head in the sand, it is working well for you. :thumbup:
How is your bet that Newegg and Amazon will accept these by July 2013 going? Accepting payment and losing 10% on it the next day isn't going to cut costs.

 
Every single node in this network that is mining / processing / making transactions needs to get the full set of all transactions that take place and agree on a consensus among them, and then incorporate that into the new block chain. This is entirely negligible at 600 transactions each block and a small number of nodes. It's not at 100 million transactions taking place across millions of devices around the entire globe.
You are wrong.

Read this

Also 100 million transactions per day would put it on par with Visa which does about 150 million.

 
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Jojo the circus boy said:
Rove! said:
...then TigerDirect

...then NewEgg

I'd guess PayPal would integrate it by Q1 of 2015 which of course would include eBay, possibly late 2014.

Not sure on Amazon time table, Gyft is already working on a chrome extension I believe that would allow you to purchase an Amazon gift card for the exact amount of your purchase and apply it seamlessly.
"It's a possibility"

"How bad do you want it? #RT this and show us...GO!"

Pretty solid confirmations there. :)
Why would you doubt they are working on solutions to lower their current costs? Overstock has come forward to say they are working on integrating it. PayPal CEO has already spoke about integrating BTC. Keep your head in the sand, it is working well for you. :thumbup:
How is your bet that Newegg and Amazon will accept these by July 2013 going? Accepting payment and losing 10% on it the next day isn't going to cut costs.
Funny you mention BitcoinStore's bet (it wasn't my prediction) - they are the one's being tweeted about by TigerDirect above.

How's your prediction about bitcoin coming along? Oh right you never made one, you just come in here and talk ####.

 
Every single node in this network that is mining / processing / making transactions needs to get the full set of all transactions that take place and agree on a consensus among them, and then incorporate that into the new block chain. This is entirely negligible at 600 transactions each block and a small number of nodes. It's not at 100 million transactions taking place across millions of devices around the entire globe.
You are wrong.

Read this

Also 100 million transactions per day would put it on par with Visa which does about 150 million.
:lmao:

So if ordinary users start using SPV clients instead of full-blown Bitcoin clients, what will that do to the structure of the Bitcoin network?

We don't have great metrics, to be honest. There are thousands and thousands of nodes today. But what's happening is that over time the structure of the network is changing. The composition of nodes has been moving away from temporary nodes running at home to long-term nodes running in data centers.
"Yeah, this seems like it'll work. We haven't really though through the full ramifications entirely... and it seems like only people that are rich enough to afford data centers can run our nodes anymore... but buy our money for liberty and freedom and stuff".

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jojo the circus boy said:
Rove! said:
...then TigerDirect

...then NewEgg

I'd guess PayPal would integrate it by Q1 of 2015 which of course would include eBay, possibly late 2014.

Not sure on Amazon time table, Gyft is already working on a chrome extension I believe that would allow you to purchase an Amazon gift card for the exact amount of your purchase and apply it seamlessly.
"It's a possibility"

"How bad do you want it? #RT this and show us...GO!"

Pretty solid confirmations there. :)
Why would you doubt they are working on solutions to lower their current costs? Overstock has come forward to say they are working on integrating it. PayPal CEO has already spoke about integrating BTC. Keep your head in the sand, it is working well for you. :thumbup:
How is your bet that Newegg and Amazon will accept these by July 2013 going? Accepting payment and losing 10% on it the next day isn't going to cut costs.
Funny you mention BitcoinStore's bet (it wasn't my prediction) - they are the one's being tweeted about by TigerDirect above.

How's your prediction about bitcoin coming along? Oh right you never made one, you just come in here and talk ####.
:lol:

It's a well designed bubble, not a currency. That has been my stance all along. Falling in half over the last week just helps show that more.

 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Rove! said:
...then TigerDirect

...then NewEgg

I'd guess PayPal would integrate it by Q1 of 2015 which of course would include eBay, possibly late 2014.

Not sure on Amazon time table, Gyft is already working on a chrome extension I believe that would allow you to purchase an Amazon gift card for the exact amount of your purchase and apply it seamlessly.
"It's a possibility"

"How bad do you want it? #RT this and show us...GO!"

Pretty solid confirmations there. :)
Why would you doubt they are working on solutions to lower their current costs? Overstock has come forward to say they are working on integrating it. PayPal CEO has already spoke about integrating BTC. Keep your head in the sand, it is working well for you. :thumbup:
How is your bet that Newegg and Amazon will accept these by July 2013 going? Accepting payment and losing 10% on it the next day isn't going to cut costs.
Funny you mention BitcoinStore's bet (it wasn't my prediction) - they are the one's being tweeted about by TigerDirect above.

How's your prediction about bitcoin coming along? Oh right you never made one, you just come in here and talk ####.
:lol:

It's a well designed bubble, not a currency. That has been my stance all along. Falling in half over the last week just helps show that more.
So you have some vague prediction with no timetable, got it.

 
What about the guys that had thousands of them stolen from their wallets? How did Bitcoin fare for them?
About as well as the guy that had his wallet stolen with thousands of dollars in it? It's pretty dumb comparison for you to make. If you leave that kind of scratch unprotected you deserve to get robbed.
Bitcoin should have just gotten the transaction reversed. Oh wait - theft is entirely anonymous and irreversible in the bitcoin system.

 
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Every single node in this network that is mining / processing / making transactions needs to get the full set of all transactions that take place and agree on a consensus among them, and then incorporate that into the new block chain. This is entirely negligible at 600 transactions each block and a small number of nodes. It's not at 100 million transactions taking place across millions of devices around the entire globe.
You are wrong.

Read this

Also 100 million transactions per day would put it on par with Visa which does about 150 million.
:lmao:

So if ordinary users start using SPV clients instead of full-blown Bitcoin clients, what will that do to the structure of the Bitcoin network?

We don't have great metrics, to be honest. There are thousands and thousands of nodes today. But what's happening is that over time the structure of the network is changing. The composition of nodes has been moving away from temporary nodes running at home to long-term nodes running in data centers.
"Yeah, this seems like it'll work. We haven't really though through the full ramifications entirely... and it seems like only people that are rich enough to afford data centers can run our nodes anymore... but buy our money for liberty and freedom and stuff".
You are just trolling at this point, immediately above that:

When I started using Bitcoin in 2011, it took around a day for my Bitcoin software to download all Bitcoin transactions from Bitcoin's origins in 2009 until 2011. By 2013, every time I started the client after a few days of inactivity it would take hours just to catch up to a few days of activity. Isn't this problem going to get worse and worse as the network gets busier?

End users are not running this software [e.g. software that downloads the whole blockchain] any more. One of the things we've been doing is transitioning users away from Bitcoin-Qt, the software you have [which downloads the entire blockchain], toward applications like Multibit. Multibit will synchronize with the blockchain in a few seconds. [Getting that to work] has been a massive pile of work. If you have a computer which is running all the time, connected to the Internet, you can help out the system by running [the full Bitcoin] software, but if you just want to use it, then you use this sort of lighter-weight software.

There are different degrees of lightness, In 2011, the choice was Bitcoin-Qt or a Web wallet. Since then, we've developed something described by [bitcoin creator] Satoshi [Nakamoto] in his original paper. It uses a slightly weaker trust model than Bitcoin-Qt. In SPV mode, with clients like Multibit and Hive, it still scans the blockchain, and what it assumes is whatever blockchain has the majority of miners on it [is correct]. Instead of verifying the entire contents, it just trusts that the majority of miners are honest. It's still peer to peer. There's no central server that tells you what to do or what your balance is or whatever. As long as the majority is honest, it works.

Basically, [an SPV node] has a list of blocks which are known to be a part of the best chain as of a few months ago, and then downloads just a small part of the block. It downloads the block header, and then downloads transactions that are relevant. It connects to a random peer [on the Bitcoin network]. The SPV client doesn't do a direct query. Instead, it uploads what's called a noisy Bloom filter, a garbled view of what the wallet [e.g. the SPV client] needs. The node sends back some subset of the blockchain. The SPV client does some mathematical proof-checking to make sure the node isn't forging all this stuff.

 
Why do you need to back up this offline storage in 3 different places and make sure that continue to make more backups periodically to avoid bit rot causing you to lose everything?

 
Why is it that I have to follow this procedure to save my stuff offline? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/How_to_set_up_a_secure_offline_savings_wallet

  1. Set up a Wuala account, or other cloud backup service of your choice.
  2. Create a strong and unique password offline (manually). This password should be at least 20 characters long; it should contain numbers, upper and lower case letters, and symbols. It should be as random as possible, ie it should look something like this: Zr%8qL03&cvwS9@05AatdP71. Never use this password elsewhere.
  3. Do not forget this password. Recite it several times a day. It is easy to overestimate your ability to remember a password several months in the future. To be on the safe side, write it down and store the piece of paper in a safety deposit box. :lmao:
  4. Download Bitcoin Linux binary and save it on a USB drive.
  5. Shut down your computer, and boot Ubuntu (or Linux distribution of you choice) from a liveCD. This will not affect your current operating system.
  6. Disconnect machine from the internet. Unplug any network cables and disable wireless. Verify that wireless is disabled in the icon on the upper right corner (Ubuntu). Double check that machine is disconnected by opening the web browser. :lmao:
  7. Run bitcoin while disconnected to the internet. The client will show 0 connections and 0 blocks, but it will still generate a wallet.dat file and a bitcoin address.
  8. Encrypt your wallet using the strong and unique password from step 2 above. (Bitcoin Client > Settings > Encrypt wallet)
  9. Copy wallet.dat (found in hidden folder .bitcoin in your home directory) to USB drive.
  10. Save bitcoin address to a text file and copy it to USB drive.
  11. Shut down system and turn off computer. Before switching your computer on again, remove all power sources for about 1 minute. Physically remove battery from laptop. :lmao:
  12. Backup encrypted wallet.dat file in several places:
    • Send it to your 5 best friends by email attachment and ask them to save it for you.
    • Save it on your Wuala account created in step 1.
    • Save it on several USB drives and CDs and store them in different geographic locations.
  13. Send bitcoins to the address saved on the USB drive. Double check in the block explorer that they have been sent.
 
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Why is it that I need to repeat this procedure every time I sent bitcoins?

Notes
  • This procedure is only secure if you perform steps 1-13 in this exact order.
  • Perform one or two trial runs of the above procedure with a few bitcents, and make sure that you know how to successfully retrieve them, before making a bulk transfer.
  • Every time you retrieve bitcoins from your savings wallet, create a fresh savings wallet by repeating the above procedure, and send all your remaining savings balance there.
  • There is more than one way to do it. Similar procedures have been suggested on the forums here and here.
  • Beware that even savings wallets have limited lifetimes. New, backwards incompatible versions of bitcoin might come out in future, AES might be broken, bit rot might destroy your wallets, etc. Update to fresh savings wallets every couple of years, or as needed.
 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Rove! said:
...then TigerDirect

...then NewEgg

I'd guess PayPal would integrate it by Q1 of 2015 which of course would include eBay, possibly late 2014.

Not sure on Amazon time table, Gyft is already working on a chrome extension I believe that would allow you to purchase an Amazon gift card for the exact amount of your purchase and apply it seamlessly.
"It's a possibility"

"How bad do you want it? #RT this and show us...GO!"

Pretty solid confirmations there. :)
Why would you doubt they are working on solutions to lower their current costs? Overstock has come forward to say they are working on integrating it. PayPal CEO has already spoke about integrating BTC. Keep your head in the sand, it is working well for you. :thumbup:
How is your bet that Newegg and Amazon will accept these by July 2013 going? Accepting payment and losing 10% on it the next day isn't going to cut costs.
Funny you mention BitcoinStore's bet (it wasn't my prediction) - they are the one's being tweeted about by TigerDirect above.

How's your prediction about bitcoin coming along? Oh right you never made one, you just come in here and talk ####.
:lol:

It's a well designed bubble, not a currency. That has been my stance all along. Falling in half over the last week just helps show that more.
So you have some vague prediction with no timetable, got it.
Hard to tell how long it takes people to realize they're being scammed.

 
Why do you need to back up this offline storage in 3 different places and make sure that continue to make more backups periodically to avoid bit rot causing you to lose everything?
Stupid questions for $100?

Why don't you carry around your entire savings account balance in cash in your wallet?

You don't have to do anything. Hell you can use a paper wallet for bitcoin and store just like cash / deeds / precious metals in your safe deposit box.

 
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