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Bitcoins - anyone else mining? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Charlie Frown
- Start date
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
dparker713
Footballguy
This is so naïve. The US would not need to shut everyone off. It merely needs to make examples. It hardly shut down all the poker sites, and only 1 it went after closed its doors. But casual players left in droves. And no matter how decentralized you want to claim this will be, there will be businesses and people in the US that the government could tax/prosecute to chill the entire market.
Whitetail Hunter
Footballguy
I don't think anyone wants to fight the US Government. That's why they hired a lobbyist and why embracing regulation is a common theme.
Whitetail Hunter
Footballguy
The founder asked me to get involved with the company.
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Whitetail Hunter
Footballguy
TbdI have 20 years in investment banking which is an uncommon skill set in the bitcoin world.
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
I like their benefits pitch:
Benefits
- Meaningful equity at an early stage company
- Own your own projects from conception to launch
- Excellent health insurance
- Free food (lunch and dinners)
- A new MacBook computer
- The option of getting paid in Bitcoin
- Work whenever you work best (flexible hours)
- No vacation policy - take time off when you need it
- Work in the heart of San Francisco's SoMA neighborhood (with easy access to the Caltrain)
- Work on a big idea that is changing the world
sporthenry
Footballguy
That seems dumb, lack of regulation is the reason people use these things.....
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Mob: You people that believe in bitcoins are so dumb it's Tulip 2.0, the Government won't stand for currency that isn't regulated.
Bitcoin-bugs: The backers of Bitcoin want regulation.
Mob: That's so dumb, why would anyone want bitcoins if they are regulated!
Bitcoin-bugs: The backers of Bitcoin want regulation.
Mob: That's so dumb, why would anyone want bitcoins if they are regulated!
sporthenry
Footballguy
I don't know if it'll fail or not but at this point, the value to get in just seems too high. If I mined a few to start, that'd be great. But at this point, the costs associated with mining seems ridiculous and the speculative nature has made buying them a costly venture.
And considering I'm not someone who distrusts the government and thinks if the US Gov't pulled a Cyprus, there'd be a lot more issues that Bitcoin wouldn't resolve or if you really dislike government regulation. But I have no interest going back to the Gold standard or something similar. Heck, I appreciate Keynesian economics at least to a point. So it really doesn't do much for me. Wherever I can use bitcoins, I'll still use money and maybe Bitcoins rise in value relative to the dollar but it could just as easily crash.
And considering I'm not someone who distrusts the government and thinks if the US Gov't pulled a Cyprus, there'd be a lot more issues that Bitcoin wouldn't resolve or if you really dislike government regulation. But I have no interest going back to the Gold standard or something similar. Heck, I appreciate Keynesian economics at least to a point. So it really doesn't do much for me. Wherever I can use bitcoins, I'll still use money and maybe Bitcoins rise in value relative to the dollar but it could just as easily crash.
dparker713
Footballguy
Dude, I realize you're standing on your soap-box screaming at the top of your lungs cheerleading Bitcoins, but your "opposition" isn't some galvanized force up in arms dying to suppress the upcoming revolution.Jojo the circus boy said:
Oh, and if Bitcoins are so decentralized and immune to all the ills of fiat currency, why does it need backers?
dparker713
Footballguy
Don't see how you regulate it without destroying the aspects of Bitcoin that make it more desirable to a consumer.Whitetail Hunter said:
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Yeah you are not standing on a soap box across the street...
the people making the most noise against bitcoin *cough* really are clueless about the technology and think just by using bitcoin their transactions are anonymous and untraceable by the government
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Politician Spock
Footballguy
The Banking Acts are not an obstacle to bitcoin. They are example of what congress is capable of regarding currencies in circulation in the Union.Jojo the circus boy said:If you are going to cite the National Banking Acts of 1863 and 1864 then you'll have to explain the leap you are making from wildcat banking to bitcoins, I'm not seeing it and never heard of this being a legitimate obstacle to bitcoins which is no where close to state sponsored.The Banking Act of 1863 placed a 10% tax on notes of non-federally issued currencies. This essentially pushed all non-federally issued currencies out of circulation, which was the whole point of the tax, and the act for that matter.You forgot theIf you don't think Big Brother is already watching you, check out the AP phone records thread. And pointing out that the US Congress has the power to largely destroy the value of Bitcoins whenever they so desire is hardly Orwellian.Jojo the circus boy said:I am grouping you in with stbugs since you seem to share the same Orwellian viewpoints.dparker713 said:Downloaded, no, I have not. Streamed, well a man has to eat. And I've never compared it to a Ponzi scheme or tulip inflation. Nor does my skepticism about this particular product mean I dismiss anything that is not already mainstream.Jojo the circus boy said:I just enjoy laughing at people like you trying to compare it to Ponzi schemes and tulip inflation.I get it, you're not early adopters, you scoff at anything that is not already mainstream, it just wreaks of ignorance to dismiss it. I'm sure you never illegally downloaded anything either.dparker713 said:After all your cheerleading, we all assumed you were on Big Bitcoin payroll somehow.Jojo the circus boy said:You don't think bitcoin is a payment provider?https://bitpay.com/Where did I state I was getting rich off bitcoin?stbugs said:Jojo thinks he is getting rich off this and somehow saying a couple of dudes who accept bitcoins and buy things for you on Amazon with US dollars/credit cards = Amazon accepting bitcoins. And then above, trying to compare it to Paypal as a payment service. Funny, his best argument against my old shoes Amazon purchasing web site it to try and act like us non-Koolaid adicts are old fashioned because we aren't paying for things in bitcoins yet.
Additionally, my tweaking of you has nothing to do with Bitcoin. Its entirely about you resurrecting this thread on multiple occasions anytime Bitcoin pops up on your Google alerts.
I think Google Alerts is too advanced for someone like you, you should stick to getting your news from newspapers.
Also, being skeptical of Bitcoins hardly makes someone a Luddite. Plenty of new things are merely fads and not monumental shifts in the world.
How does the US Congress destroy bitcoin? I'm all ears to your expertise on the matter.
I'll even throw you the first pitch
All congress would have to do is extend the act to include currencies such as Bitcoin too.
Download the paper I linked above if you want to understand the legal hurdles, he does a good job explaining what the potential ones are.
It would not take much for congress to pass a new act, or extend an existing one, to essentially #### Bitcoin over just like congress has ####ed other non-federally issued currencies. Anyone holding Bitcoins when congress flexes its muscle against Bitcoin will be screwed, just like people who were holding non-federally issued currencies in the past were screwed when congress did the same in the past. To think Bitcoin is immune to this is insane.
And this is coming from a poster who believes the dollar's days in existence are numbered. The dollar will die soon, but believe me congress won't just let go of it's power regarding currency. The dollar will be replaced by another centralized currency. Congress has no desire to allow non-centralized currencies to have any place in the union.
bagger
Footballguy
bitdollars?I am in.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Pretty much.
The Secret Service would have an easier time doing its job in a cashless society.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
when you say 'they' hired a lobbyist, who is 'they'?
sporthenry
Footballguy
I thought when you meant the dollar's days were numbered, you meant along the same way the Franc and Mark's days were numbered. Even in a cashless society, I'd think things would still be in dollars, just no physical dollars but we already have a relatively cashless society with things like Credit and Debit cards and most transactions just being done on computers. And as you mention, the government will have its hands all over that so if that is why you want the Bitcoin, you probably won't get it with the Bitcoin.
From what I gather, the two biggest benefits, which are sort of the same is that the government won't be able to touch it like Cyprus and a corollary to that is that it isn't fiat money. But like I said, if the US Govt' pulls a Cyprus, it would do irreparable harm that Bitcoins wouldn't solve. And it seems like a way of going back to the Silver/Gold standard which I just don't think will catch on.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
When I say the dollar’s days are numbered, I’m saying that change is imminent. The direction of that change could be any number of directions, so I’m not suggesting I know WHICH direction will be chosen, only that current direction is coming to an end.
What direction is chosen could be an entire thread in itself. The change could still use the word “dollar” as the name of the currency, just like the change in 1971kept the same word, and the change in 1944 kept the same word, and the change that occurred in 1933 kept the same word, and the change that occurred in 1913 kept the same word, etc, etc…
I wouldn’t be surprised at all however that when the mechanics of how dollars (or the new currency name if they choose to call it something different) come into existence changes in the near future, the opportunity to move to a cashless society is also included as part of the change… not that it is entirely necessary, but because it’s a good opportunity to force people who would reject a cashless society to accept it given they will still have old currency and would need to accept a cashless society to begin using new currency.
And I agree for the most part with your assessment of Bitcoin. Like gold, it has to be mined (in one respect or another) and there is an upper limit on how much can possibly be mined. Like gold, central banks don't like that people believe it to be a currency, but unlike gold (and silver for that matter) central banks don't have a way of naked short selling it.... at least yet. They will find a way, and when they do, Bitcoins will become less appealing than gold and silver, because at least gold and silver can be used in jewelry and other industrial purposes. Bitcoins have no purpose at all, other than to be a currency.
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
...yeah no purpose other than a low fee payment provider, people always seem to forget about that part.
Just wait until the porn industry fuels the growth of bitcoin.
http://biterotic.com/
http://pornforcoin.com/
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/banks-porn-stars-your-moneys-not-welcome-1C9967366
sporthenry
Footballguy
So you are banking on the porn industry fueling bitcoin? Who the hell still pays for porn anyways?
You are hysterical in this thread. We aren't clueless and not up on technology, we are just amused at your cheerleading. You just keep posting misleading stuff trying to cheerlead bitcoins. First, posting something about someone suggesting it would be interesting for Facebook to do something and making it seem like there was a partnership. Then you post that you can buy anything on Amazon with bitcoins and that is complete BS. My analogy of oldshoes is 100% correct, because it is a buying service that takes bitcoins and they could take anything. LOL at your "who cares about returns, I never have to do that." Crazy old school me actually shops online, shocking huh? I am an Amazon prime member and I just returned something this week that was past the return date, but Amazon being awesome as always let me return it when I sent support and email about the issues I had. Lastly, you throw up the chart of bitcoin value as some sort of proof and then laugh it off when I throw up a very similar chart of a market crash that actually happened. Keep living in your bubble and ignore the possibility that it may crash.
Yeah you are not standing on a soap box across the street...
the people making the most noise against bitcoin *cough* really are clueless about the technology and think just by using bitcoin their transactions are anonymous and untraceable by the government
My last, last point is that the reason I am very skeptical is because everyone rah-rahing bitcoins in all your links are guys who have a vested interest in bitcoins. The Winklevosses own lots of bitcoins, the board members in your foundation include people who own businesses that depend on bitcoins. If you don't see any similarity to the owners of MLM schemes then you are ignoring the potential risks. Not saying it is a Ponzi scheme, but if you think the "founders" of bitcoins aren't going to cash in well if they take off is silly. Anyone posting anything negative riles you up so I don't see someone who is open to discussion, just a cheerleader. Happy mining.
pittstownkiller
Footballguy
Jojo, I am interested in the concept of a bitcoin, though I freely admit that there is much I do not understand about them. If it is an electronically created "item", what would stop the Chinese from devoting resources to produce these for themselves. It would seem that even with my limited knowledge, that anyone producing vast quantities would alter the value of these; even the wampum the Indians used, had a "rarity" that assured that there was a limited supply. The Chinese were/are using prison labor to run up credits on video games to convert into cash; why would they not be involved here?
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Read the last part of what you bolded again.
pittstownkiller
Footballguy
Couldn't that be argued for a paper dollar?
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Until you realize paypal is not a currency and bitcoin provides a similar service to paypal at a much lower fee structure and that the network created by bitcoins as well as the utility of the service it provides is valuable and that all of this is completely separate from the currency aspect of bitcoin than you will not understand what I'm saying.
People point to the poor as an example that will never be able to use bitcoins, but even in Africa I read on average one out of two people have access to a cell phone with internet service (usually blackberrys). This type of technology is a hell of a lot more far reaching than just the U.S. which people in this thread can't seem to wrap their heads around.
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Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
The production of bitcoins are capped, the full history of each coin is embedded within itself, cannot be duplicated or created from scratch. The chinese would be welcome to mine bitcoins like everyone else but the production of those coins are capped over time so that it is inflation-proof. Unlike the USD where they print as much of it as is needed.
You don't have to worry about running out of bitcoins for a very long time since they are divisible into one hundred million discreet units (from 1 bitcoin). So, similar to a stock that is no longer issued or split, the more demand there is for it the higher the value will go.
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Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
You call it cheerleading, I call it pointing out ignorance and trying to educate the masses that are afraid of bitcoins. I never said there was a partnership with Facebook, but keep spewing that nonsense. If all you have access to is bitcoins yes you can buy anything you want on Amazon, that is true. I never said it couldn't crash, in fact I had asked what the odds that the value of the bitcoin market cap could surpass the market cap of the US money supply of the USD, but keep thinking those mean the same thingsYou are hysterical in this thread. We aren't clueless and not up on technology, we are just amused at your cheerleading. You just keep posting misleading stuff trying to cheerlead bitcoins. First, posting something about someone suggesting it would be interesting for Facebook to do something and making it seem like there was a partnership. Then you post that you can buy anything on Amazon with bitcoins and that is complete BS. My analogy of oldshoes is 100% correct, because it is a buying service that takes bitcoins and they could take anything. LOL at your "who cares about returns, I never have to do that." Crazy old school me actually shops online, shocking huh? I am an Amazon prime member and I just returned something this week that was past the return date, but Amazon being awesome as always let me return it when I sent support and email about the issues I had. Lastly, you throw up the chart of bitcoin value as some sort of proof and then laugh it off when I throw up a very similar chart of a market crash that actually happened. Keep living in your bubble and ignore the possibility that it may crash.My last, last point is that the reason I am very skeptical is because everyone rah-rahing bitcoins in all your links are guys who have a vested interest in bitcoins. The Winklevosses own lots of bitcoins, the board members in your foundation include people who own businesses that depend on bitcoins. If you don't see any similarity to the owners of MLM schemes then you are ignoring the potential risks. Not saying it is a Ponzi scheme, but if you think the "founders" of bitcoins aren't going to cash in well if they take off is silly. Anyone posting anything negative riles you up so I don't see someone who is open to discussion, just a cheerleader. Happy mining.
the people making the most noise against bitcoin *cough* really are clueless about the technology and think just by using bitcoin their transactions are anonymous and untraceable by the government
However I will say you are learning, because in fact you did say it reminds you of a ponzi scheme, so even someone as thick skulled as yourself, if you get corrected enough times you finally see the light. Why should I care if someone owns more bitcoins than me, you make it sound like it is dumb to invest in gold because people own more of it than I do, you probably think gold is a ponzi sheme too. Have you learned what a ponzi scheme is yet and recognize it is impossible for bitcoins to be a ponzi scheme so drawing parallels to it is ignorant?
A few more "scary" links for you:
World Money Supply vs. Industrial Production
One more since you are so fascinated with this "pattern"
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/SBASENS_Max_630_378.png]a third...
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Whitetail Hunter
Footballguy
Played easy hold em and turned 2000 lite coin units into 13000. 
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Now accepting applications to BCA (Bitcoin Cheerleading Academy):
http://player.vimeo.com/video/66482225
http://player.vimeo.com/video/66482225
Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
The distribution of bitcoins seems especially attractive to destitute nerds.
Whitetail Hunter
Footballguy
http://gigaom.com/2013/05/17/the-future-of-bitcoin-3-predictions-from-experts/
Decent summary of the meetup I attended on Thursday night.
Decent summary of the meetup I attended on Thursday night.
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Whitetail Hunter
Footballguy
It was part of the conference in San Jose. I only attended the Thursday night meetup--not any other part of the conference.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
YES! Very much so!
The difference being the paper dollar has the US government on its side.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. It's only use is to be a method of exchange.
At least a paper dollar has the intrinsic value of the heat that can be produced from it when it is burned. A Bitcoin does not even have that.
You can split hairs all you want regarding the "purposes" it has, but all of its purposes are within the context of exchange. It has no other purpose outside of that.
So, in regards to the original question that produced this tangent, Bitcoin is similar to gold in a lot of ways, but at least gold has intrinsic value in that it can be used in jewelry and industrial purposes.
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Now you are comparing dollar bills to firewood? Can't argue with that sound logic.
Gold is only useful in jewelry due to its perceived value, the value in industrial purposes is less than 10% of it's perceived market value and that's being generous. So yeah if you are ok with your gold being worth 10 cents on the dollar instead of nothing yep you win but you are still broke as a joke.
We're experiencing a paradigm shift so I don't expect people grounded in today's beliefs (because it has always been that way so why should anything change) to embrace the potential of bitcoins, I assume your solution is to invent a new mineral that doesn't exist to replace gold since at least you can touch it and it has weight so it has intrinsic value in being a paper weight! so it is more real than these internet 0's and 1's which are meaningless to you.
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Politician Spock
Footballguy
Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing.
Sporthenry made the comment "And it seems like a way of going back to the Silver/Gold standard which I just don't think will catch on". Anyone being intellectually honest can say it has similarities to a silver/gold standard, but is also different.
That is niether a bad thing, nor a good thing. It shouldn't bother you as an evangelist for Bitcoin one way or the other.
You are bothered because you have a Bitcoin on your shoulder and want nothing more than for someone to knock it off.
Instead of being an antagonistic evangelist, you could instead be an intellectually honest evangelist... but that would require admitting that it's not perfect, which is something you don't seem willing to accept.
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Nowhere do I state Bitcoins are perfect, I'm merely pointing out flaws in your statements (as well as others) when you make simplistic all or nothing arguments such as "Bitcoins have no purpose other than a currency" to which you still have not admitted to your shortsightedness. Creating a peer-to-peer network that is not centrally controlled, that is divisible by one hundred million units, and has a very low fee structure when used by merchants certainly has value, certainly more value than using a dollar bill as kindling as you give as an example of the dollar's dominance over Bitcoins
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Politician Spock
Footballguy
Oh my!Nowhere do I state Bitcoins are perfect, I'm merely pointing out flaws in your statements (as well as others) when you make simplistic all or nothing arguments such as "Bitcoins have no purpose other than a currency" to which you still have not admitted to your shortsightedness. Creating a peer-to-peer network that is not centrally controlled, that is divisible by one hundred million units, and has a very low fee structure when used by merchants certainly has value, certainly more value than using a dollar bill as kindling as you give as an example of the dollar's dominance over Bitcoins
Enjoy the abyss.
sporthenry
Footballguy
This is going to be a hilarious bump in a few years. The kind that probably sends people into hibernation one way or another.
But I keep hearing about this low fee structure P2P network similar to PayPal but better. I'm not sure what is better other than the lower fees. And you know what happens when competition occurs, PayPal will more than likely adapt and lower its fees. Then what?
But I keep hearing about this low fee structure P2P network similar to PayPal but better. I'm not sure what is better other than the lower fees. And you know what happens when competition occurs, PayPal will more than likely adapt and lower its fees. Then what?
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
Bitcoin adoption, http://www.thegenesisblock.com/mapping-bitcoin-adoption-a-global-perspective/]11 graphs, China woke up in the past 30 days.
Jojo the circus boy
Footballguy
More likely than not some variant of Bitcoin will still be around when all of the posters come back in 5 years to claim victory over Bitcoin's demise, whether it be Litecoin, PPcoin, Terracoin or some other virtual currency that hasn't been invented yet and I think it is pretty sad for you to look forward to such a hollow victory.
Paypal would be cutting the majority of their profits if they tried to price match, a more likely scenario is that PayPal would work with Bitcoin as a funding instrument.
https://bitpay.com/pricing
I just heard about WebMoney which I believe is the European equivalent to PayPal in which there seems to already be adoption of Bitcoin. I was listening to a podcast where it was possible to pay your credit card bills through WebMoney using Bitcoin. WebMoney's fee structure is much cheaper compared to PayPal.
Reading up on WebMoney (wiki) - very closely parallels Bitcoin for anyone interested in learning more.
WM has been around since 1998 and has 11 million users.
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You call it cheerleading, I call it pointing out ignorance and trying to educate the masses that are afraid of bitcoins. I never said there was a partnership with Facebook, but keep spewing that nonsense. If all you have access to is bitcoins yes you can buy anything you want on Amazon, that is true. I never said it couldn't crash, in fact I had asked what the odds that the value of the bitcoin market cap could surpass the market cap of the US money supply of the USD, but keep thinking those mean the same thingsYou are hysterical in this thread. We aren't clueless and not up on technology, we are just amused at your cheerleading. You just keep posting misleading stuff trying to cheerlead bitcoins. First, posting something about someone suggesting it would be interesting for Facebook to do something and making it seem like there was a partnership. Then you post that you can buy anything on Amazon with bitcoins and that is complete BS. My analogy of oldshoes is 100% correct, because it is a buying service that takes bitcoins and they could take anything. LOL at your "who cares about returns, I never have to do that." Crazy old school me actually shops online, shocking huh? I am an Amazon prime member and I just returned something this week that was past the return date, but Amazon being awesome as always let me return it when I sent support and email about the issues I had. Lastly, you throw up the chart of bitcoin value as some sort of proof and then laugh it off when I throw up a very similar chart of a market crash that actually happened. Keep living in your bubble and ignore the possibility that it may crash.My last, last point is that the reason I am very skeptical is because everyone rah-rahing bitcoins in all your links are guys who have a vested interest in bitcoins. The Winklevosses own lots of bitcoins, the board members in your foundation include people who own businesses that depend on bitcoins. If you don't see any similarity to the owners of MLM schemes then you are ignoring the potential risks. Not saying it is a Ponzi scheme, but if you think the "founders" of bitcoins aren't going to cash in well if they take off is silly. Anyone posting anything negative riles you up so I don't see someone who is open to discussion, just a cheerleader. Happy mining.
the people making the most noise against bitcoin *cough* really are clueless about the technology and think just by using bitcoin their transactions are anonymous and untraceable by the government
However I will say you are learning, because in fact you did say it reminds you of a ponzi scheme, so even someone as thick skulled as yourself, if you get corrected enough times you finally see the light. Why should I care if someone owns more bitcoins than me, you make it sound like it is dumb to invest in gold because people own more of it than I do, you probably think gold is a ponzi sheme too. Have you learned what a ponzi scheme is yet and recognize it is impossible for bitcoins to be a ponzi scheme so drawing parallels to it is ignorant?
A few more "scary" links for you:
World Money Supply vs. Industrial Production
One more since you are so fascinated with this "pattern"
a third...
Wow, you really are just an ###. Thickskulled? You have no idea who I am and what I do, but keep thinking you are smarter than me.Saying it reminds me of a ponzi scheme <> me saying it is a ponzi scheme. Is it really that hard to admit that the founders/spokespeople of bitcoins will benefit the most from the market cap of bitcoins going up? Hmm, what happens in MLMs and Ponzi schemes? Gee, I think the first ones to develop it are the ones that actually make money off of it and the newbies are the ones left holding the bag. Did you look at the people running that foundation and did you notice that most own/are involved with businesses that would profit the most? Can you wrap your head around that one? Seems pretty simple to me.
I also still can't believe you are holding on to the Amazon paying with bitcoins thing. Pretty sure there are some bright people in this thread, including me, that are laughing at a buying service that accepts bitcoins as not being the same thing as Amazon actually accepting bitcoins at Amazon.com. Oh well, no sense arguing with someone like you. I get the concept, I thought (and still do think) that your links and cheerleading were misleading if you actually looked at the fine print.
