Boilers - A cry for help (1 Viewer)

[Nick Vermeil]

I'm in need of some boiler advice. We bought a house in NY state 5 years back and it has an oil boiler, which I despise. It's noisy, expensive to fuel and from my limited research it is not particularly efficient. I have tried to get natural gas run to the house, but the utility isn't cooperating and it looks unlikely even though there is gas service less than 50 yards from my house in two directions. Ultimately, I would love to get away from oil, but with gas not likely an option, electric or heat pumps are my only real options. For what it's worth, the current boiler is in fine condition and would likely last another 10-20 years.

So my problem is, there is an indirect water tank tied to the boiler that provides our hot water. Last week, that tank began leaking. As it turns out, the fittings on the coil have started to corrode and the thing needs to be replaced. So I'm forced with making a decision now that will ultimately affect my choices for dealing with the boiler.

I've had a couple companies come out and it looks like I have these options:

A) Commit to oil fuel and replace the current storage tank, upgrade some thermostats and controls which should increase efficiency about 15% - $6,700. I'm told the water storage portion of this setup is extremely efficient.

B) Begin moving away from oil by replacing the tank with an electric or heat pump water heater - $5,500-$8,500 includes all electrical work and permits. Both companies claim these options are not as efficient as the current indirect storage and do not provide as much readily available hot water. Both also steered me away from tankless units as they only last abut 7 years.

C) Replace the boiler and tank right now with a quiet, high efficiency Resolute direct vent oil boiler (can be converted to gas in future) and water tank - $17,500. This set up is 91.3% efficient cutting fuel usage 30-40%

D) Heat pumps. I don't have quotes yet for this and it may be too big of a job for my current timeline. Though we currently have ducts for AC, I'm being told they are too large for this application and would have to be replaced. The current base board heaters also are likely not compatible. But I'm happy to be convinced.

Paging @ChiefD and other experts or homeowners who have faced similar decisions.

 

[Eephus]

I opened this thread thinking it would be tips for dealing with a beer belly

 

[El Floppo]

Blacklungdot.

Wish I knew more about this stuff relative to the stuff I actually know a lot about, so I could help.

But let me know and I'll make sure to advise if it's pretty enough or not.

 

[El Floppo]

I opened this thread thinking it would be tips for dealing with a beer belly

I thought it was cooking related.

 

[Sullie]

I opened this thread thinking it was something about the Purdue Boilermakers. . ..carry on.

 

[ChiefD]

I'm in need of some boiler advice. We bought a house in NY state 5 years back and it has an oil boiler, which I despise. It's noisy, expensive to fuel and from my limited research it is not particularly efficient. I have tried to get natural gas run to the house, but the utility isn't cooperating and it looks unlikely even though there is gas service less than 50 yards from my house in two directions. Ultimately, I would love to get away from oil, but with gas not likely an option, electric or heat pumps are my only real options. For what it's worth, the current boiler is in fine condition and would likely last another 10-20 years.

So my problem is, there is an indirect water tank tied to the boiler that provides our hot water. Last week, that tank began leaking. As it turns out, the fittings on the coil have started to corrode and the thing needs to be replaced. So I'm forced with making a decision now that will ultimately affect my choices for dealing with the boiler.

I've had a couple companies come out and it looks like I have these options:

A) Commit to oil fuel and replace the current storage tank, upgrade some thermostats and controls which should increase efficiency about 15% - $6,700. I'm told the water storage portion of this setup is extremely efficient.

B) Begin moving away from oil by replacing the tank with an electric or heat pump water heater - $5,500-$8,500 includes all electrical work and permits. Both companies claim these options are not as efficient as the current indirect storage and do not provide as much readily available hot water. Both also steered me away from tankless units as they only last abut 7 years.

C) Replace the boiler and tank right now with a quiet, high efficiency Resolute direct vent oil boiler (can be converted to gas in future) and water tank - $17,500. This set up is 91.3% efficient cutting fuel usage 30-40%

D) Heat pumps. I don't have quotes yet for this and it may be too big of a job for my current timeline. Though we currently have ducts for AC, I'm being told they are too large for this application and would have to be replaced. The current base board heaters also are likely not compatible. But I'm happy to be convinced.

Paging @ChiefD and other experts or homeowners who have faced similar decisions.

Is Propane an option in your neck of the woods?

 

[Nick Vermeil]

I'm in need of some boiler advice. We bought a house in NY state 5 years back and it has an oil boiler, which I despise. It's noisy, expensive to fuel and from my limited research it is not particularly efficient. I have tried to get natural gas run to the house, but the utility isn't cooperating and it looks unlikely even though there is gas service less than 50 yards from my house in two directions. Ultimately, I would love to get away from oil, but with gas not likely an option, electric or heat pumps are my only real options. For what it's worth, the current boiler is in fine condition and would likely last another 10-20 years.

So my problem is, there is an indirect water tank tied to the boiler that provides our hot water. Last week, that tank began leaking. As it turns out, the fittings on the coil have started to corrode and the thing needs to be replaced. So I'm forced with making a decision now that will ultimately affect my choices for dealing with the boiler.

I've had a couple companies come out and it looks like I have these options:

A) Commit to oil fuel and replace the current storage tank, upgrade some thermostats and controls which should increase efficiency about 15% - $6,700. I'm told the water storage portion of this setup is extremely efficient.

B) Begin moving away from oil by replacing the tank with an electric or heat pump water heater - $5,500-$8,500 includes all electrical work and permits. Both companies claim these options are not as efficient as the current indirect storage and do not provide as much readily available hot water. Both also steered me away from tankless units as they only last abut 7 years.

C) Replace the boiler and tank right now with a quiet, high efficiency Resolute direct vent oil boiler (can be converted to gas in future) and water tank - $17,500. This set up is 91.3% efficient cutting fuel usage 30-40%

D) Heat pumps. I don't have quotes yet for this and it may be too big of a job for my current timeline. Though we currently have ducts for AC, I'm being told they are too large for this application and would have to be replaced. The current base board heaters also are likely not compatible. But I'm happy to be convinced.

Paging @ChiefD and other experts or homeowners who have faced similar decisions.

Is Propane an option in your neck of the woods?

It is.

 

[ChiefD]

I'm in need of some boiler advice. We bought a house in NY state 5 years back and it has an oil boiler, which I despise. It's noisy, expensive to fuel and from my limited research it is not particularly efficient. I have tried to get natural gas run to the house, but the utility isn't cooperating and it looks unlikely even though there is gas service less than 50 yards from my house in two directions. Ultimately, I would love to get away from oil, but with gas not likely an option, electric or heat pumps are my only real options. For what it's worth, the current boiler is in fine condition and would likely last another 10-20 years.

So my problem is, there is an indirect water tank tied to the boiler that provides our hot water. Last week, that tank began leaking. As it turns out, the fittings on the coil have started to corrode and the thing needs to be replaced. So I'm forced with making a decision now that will ultimately affect my choices for dealing with the boiler.

I've had a couple companies come out and it looks like I have these options:

A) Commit to oil fuel and replace the current storage tank, upgrade some thermostats and controls which should increase efficiency about 15% - $6,700. I'm told the water storage portion of this setup is extremely efficient.

B) Begin moving away from oil by replacing the tank with an electric or heat pump water heater - $5,500-$8,500 includes all electrical work and permits. Both companies claim these options are not as efficient as the current indirect storage and do not provide as much readily available hot water. Both also steered me away from tankless units as they only last abut 7 years.

C) Replace the boiler and tank right now with a quiet, high efficiency Resolute direct vent oil boiler (can be converted to gas in future) and water tank - $17,500. This set up is 91.3% efficient cutting fuel usage 30-40%

D) Heat pumps. I don't have quotes yet for this and it may be too big of a job for my current timeline. Though we currently have ducts for AC, I'm being told they are too large for this application and would have to be replaced. The current base board heaters also are likely not compatible. But I'm happy to be convinced.

Paging @ChiefD and other experts or homeowners who have faced similar decisions.

Is Propane an option in your neck of the woods?

It is.

OK, here are my thoughts:

1. If you have ductwork for air conditioning you can use the same ductwork for heating. When HVAC ductwork is designed it is designed for cooling because cold air is heavier. So the ductwork needs to be larger to accommodate the air flow necessary to push that cold air. Hot air is lighter, and you can most definitely push hot air through ductwork designed for cooling. So it also means you already have an air handler for the air conditioner? I'm going to assume that.

2. So a heat pump is basically an air conditioner that has a reversing valve on it so it can provide heat in the winter. The problem is, it is only really effective until the outdoor temp gets down to about 32 degrees. At that point you will need a backup heat source. That can be oil, electric, or a gas/propane furnace. So in your area, if your winter temps get below that frequently, a heat pump with backup electric heat is going to be really expensive. With that being said, an electric water heater is also really expensive because it's pulling 220 power every time it goes to heat up water. If I were you I would avoid this option altogether.

If natural gas is truly not an option (and I cannot believe this, especially with options less than 50 yards away in both directions), then that leaves you oil. Or propane.

We have propane at our house. It's relatively simple. There is a tank on my property. I lease the tank from the propane company but if I exceed a certain amount of propane a year they waive the lease amount (it's like $50 a year to lease the tank, so no biggie. Plus they are responsible for it). My tank is about 30' from my house. You can put them farther but it's easier for the propane guy to get to it. So the downside is you have to look at the tank, but I'm out in the country so out here it's like looking at a tree. They are everywhere.

If you do this you are basically looking at a propane furnace and water heater. And the cost of getting the propane line to your house. And the heat feels like a normal gas heat. You just have to fill it a few times a year. If you truly hate the oil experience this might be a viable option.

Otherwise you are stuck with the remaining two options: A or C. And that just really depends on you. Do you want to stomach the cost now to get rid of noise and inefficiency? If your current boiler is older, that's the way to go in my opinion.

 

[titusbramble]

As long as you don't go for the heat pump you'll be alright

 

[Nick Vermeil]

I'm in need of some boiler advice. We bought a house in NY state 5 years back and it has an oil boiler, which I despise. It's noisy, expensive to fuel and from my limited research it is not particularly efficient. I have tried to get natural gas run to the house, but the utility isn't cooperating and it looks unlikely even though there is gas service less than 50 yards from my house in two directions. Ultimately, I would love to get away from oil, but with gas not likely an option, electric or heat pumps are my only real options. For what it's worth, the current boiler is in fine condition and would likely last another 10-20 years.

So my problem is, there is an indirect water tank tied to the boiler that provides our hot water. Last week, that tank began leaking. As it turns out, the fittings on the coil have started to corrode and the thing needs to be replaced. So I'm forced with making a decision now that will ultimately affect my choices for dealing with the boiler.

I've had a couple companies come out and it looks like I have these options:

A) Commit to oil fuel and replace the current storage tank, upgrade some thermostats and controls which should increase efficiency about 15% - $6,700. I'm told the water storage portion of this setup is extremely efficient.

B) Begin moving away from oil by replacing the tank with an electric or heat pump water heater - $5,500-$8,500 includes all electrical work and permits. Both companies claim these options are not as efficient as the current indirect storage and do not provide as much readily available hot water. Both also steered me away from tankless units as they only last abut 7 years.

C) Replace the boiler and tank right now with a quiet, high efficiency Resolute direct vent oil boiler (can be converted to gas in future) and water tank - $17,500. This set up is 91.3% efficient cutting fuel usage 30-40%

D) Heat pumps. I don't have quotes yet for this and it may be too big of a job for my current timeline. Though we currently have ducts for AC, I'm being told they are too large for this application and would have to be replaced. The current base board heaters also are likely not compatible. But I'm happy to be convinced.

Paging @ChiefD and other experts or homeowners who have faced similar decisions.

Is Propane an option in your neck of the woods?

It is.

OK, here are my thoughts:

1. If you have ductwork for air conditioning you can use the same ductwork for heating. When HVAC ductwork is designed it is designed for cooling because cold air is heavier. So the ductwork needs to be larger to accommodate the air flow necessary to push that cold air. Hot air is lighter, and you can most definitely push hot air through ductwork designed for cooling. So it also means you already have an air handler for the air conditioner? I'm going to assume that.

2. So a heat pump is basically an air conditioner that has a reversing valve on it so it can provide heat in the winter. The problem is, it is only really effective until the outdoor temp gets down to about 32 degrees. At that point you will need a backup heat source. That can be oil, electric, or a gas/propane furnace. So in your area, if your winter temps get below that frequently, a heat pump with backup electric heat is going to be really expensive. With that being said, an electric water heater is also really expensive because it's pulling 220 power every time it goes to heat up water. If I were you I would avoid this option altogether.

If natural gas is truly not an option (and I cannot believe this, especially with options less than 50 yards away in both directions), then that leaves you oil. Or propane.

We have propane at our house. It's relatively simple. There is a tank on my property. I lease the tank from the propane company but if I exceed a certain amount of propane a year they waive the lease amount (it's like $50 a year to lease the tank, so no biggie. Plus they are responsible for it). My tank is about 30' from my house. You can put them farther but it's easier for the propane guy to get to it. So the downside is you have to look at the tank, but I'm out in the country so out here it's like looking at a tree. They are everywhere.

If you do this you are basically looking at a propane furnace and water heater. And the cost of getting the propane line to your house. And the heat feels like a normal gas heat. You just have to fill it a few times a year. If you truly hate the oil experience this might be a viable option.

Otherwise you are stuck with the remaining two options: A or C. And that just really depends on you. Do you want to stomach the cost now to get rid of noise and inefficiency? If your current boiler is older, that's the way to go in my opinion.

Thanks my friend. So the comment from the one vendor about the duct work not being compatible for heat is bunk?

I think I'll make a few more passes at the natural gas utility before I pull the trigger.

 

[ChiefD]

Thanks my friend. So the comment from the one vendor about the duct work not being compatible for heat is bunk?

I think I'll make a few more passes at the natural gas utility before I pull the trigger.

Yeah. If your house currently has air conditioning that goes through ductwork you should be able to do heat. Now, in your area there may be some special kind of ductwork that is AC only, so I would defer to their expertise.

But if your ductwork for AC is normal metal ductwork you should be fine.

 

[Redwes25]

I'm in need of some boiler advice. We bought a house in NY state 5 years back and it has an oil boiler, which I despise. It's noisy, expensive to fuel and from my limited research it is not particularly efficient. I have tried to get natural gas run to the house, but the utility isn't cooperating and it looks unlikely even though there is gas service less than 50 yards from my house in two directions. Ultimately, I would love to get away from oil, but with gas not likely an option, electric or heat pumps are my only real options. For what it's worth, the current boiler is in fine condition and would likely last another 10-20 years.

So my problem is, there is an indirect water tank tied to the boiler that provides our hot water. Last week, that tank began leaking. As it turns out, the fittings on the coil have started to corrode and the thing needs to be replaced. So I'm forced with making a decision now that will ultimately affect my choices for dealing with the boiler.

I've had a couple companies come out and it looks like I have these options:

A) Commit to oil fuel and replace the current storage tank, upgrade some thermostats and controls which should increase efficiency about 15% - $6,700. I'm told the water storage portion of this setup is extremely efficient.

B) Begin moving away from oil by replacing the tank with an electric or heat pump water heater - $5,500-$8,500 includes all electrical work and permits. Both companies claim these options are not as efficient as the current indirect storage and do not provide as much readily available hot water. Both also steered me away from tankless units as they only last abut 7 years.

C) Replace the boiler and tank right now with a quiet, high efficiency Resolute direct vent oil boiler (can be converted to gas in future) and water tank - $17,500. This set up is 91.3% efficient cutting fuel usage 30-40%

D) Heat pumps. I don't have quotes yet for this and it may be too big of a job for my current timeline. Though we currently have ducts for AC, I'm being told they are too large for this application and would have to be replaced. The current base board heaters also are likely not compatible. But I'm happy to be convinced.

Paging @ChiefD and other experts or homeowners who have faced similar decisions.

Given this is NY state I would rule out the heat bump as it gets too cold for them to be really efficient on cold days. You would also need to make sure your house is fully insulated properly for a heat pump as your only heat source and unless newly built (which sounds like it isn’t) that would be a costly additional expense.

I would go with option a or c - depending on how big an improvement the new boiler would be.

 

[The Duff Man]

There are cold climate heat pumps that work down to -20F. Not advocating for them necessarily, but they exist.

I believe New York put in laws restricting natural gas hookup to new buildings, perhaps those laws apply to any new hookup and are why they won’t do it.

A, C or Propane all look like good options given the circumstances. See what the heat pump guy says.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

There are cold climate heat pumps that work down to -20F. Not advocating for them necessarily, but they exist.

I believe New York put in laws restricting natural gas hookup to new buildings, perhaps those laws apply to any new hookup and are why they won’t do it.

A, C or Propane all look like good options given the circumstances. See what the heat pump guy says.

@Nick Vermeil there's an article in the WaPo today about this tech. It's behind a paywall, but the topic should be searchable. The important bit:

Modern heat pumps, including those designed specifically for cold climates, often don’t switch to backup heat until the temperature is much lower, typically around 5 degrees, he said.
“That means for most of the country you don’t need backup heat if you use a cold climate heat pump,” he said.

Carrier, one of the companies that participated in the Energy Department’s heat pump challenge, said its technology could operate at full capacity at zero degrees Fahrenheit. Trial units of these heat pumps were field tested in homes in Syracuse, New York, and the company said they operated reliably, though not at full capacity, down to minus-13 degrees. In lab testing, the units were able to operate down to minus-23 degrees.

Hope this helps.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I opened this thread thinking it was something about the Purdue Boilermakers. . ..carry on.

They need lots of help too.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

A quick update on this: the gas utility looked like they were going to run me a line as the main is only 200 feet away. But now they are saying I have to get one other homeowner between that main and my house to sign up too and they couldn't do it until Spring. There are only two houses that could do so. Bunch of BS if you ask me.

Will take another look at the heat pumps.

 

[urbanhack]

"Boilers - A cry for help"​

Purdue Football???

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Another bump on this. Calling in @ChiefD and the rest of y'all.

After limping along with my problems, I finally got Central Hudson to run the gas line and it looks like I'll have it in 2 weeks. Before I received word on the gas line, I had one vendor who is recommending I replace my boiler and baseboard heat and my ac with Fujitsu split system comprised of an outdoor compressor and two mid static air handlers in the attic creating 2 zones. He did not mention a gas backup for low temps so that is suspect. Also of note, the duct work in my house is 8" flexible hose, kind of like a dryer vent. He seems to think this will work fine. I would add a gas water heater, or possible 2 tankless heaters and a gas stove and gas generator.

I like this option as I can rip out the baseboard units. But I remembered ChiefD's comments about duct size and wanted to poll the experts here. The price for the heating and hot water portion is the same as replacing the oil system plus the water heater(s).

Thoughts?

 

[beer 30]

Another bump on this. Calling in @ChiefD and the rest of y'all.

After limping along with my problems, I finally got Central Hudson to run the gas line and it looks like I'll have it in 2 weeks. Before I received word on the gas line, I had one vendor who is recommending I replace my boiler and baseboard heat and my ac with Fujitsu split system comprised of an outdoor compressor and two mid static air handlers in the attic creating 2 zones. He did not mention a gas backup for low temps so that is suspect. Also of note, the duct work in my house is 8" flexible hose, kind of like a dryer vent. He seems to think this will work fine. I would add a gas water heater, or possible 2 tankless heaters and a gas stove and gas generator.

I like this option as I can rip out the baseboard units. But I remembered ChiefD's comments about duct size and wanted to poll the experts here. The price for the heating and hot water portion is the same as replacing the oil system plus the water heater(s).

Thoughts?

Do it and don't look back. Boilers suck ***.

 

[ChiefD]

Another bump on this. Calling in @ChiefD and the rest of y'all.

After limping along with my problems, I finally got Central Hudson to run the gas line and it looks like I'll have it in 2 weeks. Before I received word on the gas line, I had one vendor who is recommending I replace my boiler and baseboard heat and my ac with Fujitsu split system comprised of an outdoor compressor and two mid static air handlers in the attic creating 2 zones. He did not mention a gas backup for low temps so that is suspect. Also of note, the duct work in my house is 8" flexible hose, kind of like a dryer vent. He seems to think this will work fine. I would add a gas water heater, or possible 2 tankless heaters and a gas stove and gas generator.

I like this option as I can rip out the baseboard units. But I remembered ChiefD's comments about duct size and wanted to poll the experts here. The price for the heating and hot water portion is the same as replacing the oil system plus the water heater(s).

Thoughts?

Do the flex lines come off of a main trunk line that is metal?

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Another bump on this. Calling in @ChiefD and the rest of y'all.

After limping along with my problems, I finally got Central Hudson to run the gas line and it looks like I'll have it in 2 weeks. Before I received word on the gas line, I had one vendor who is recommending I replace my boiler and baseboard heat and my ac with Fujitsu split system comprised of an outdoor compressor and two mid static air handlers in the attic creating 2 zones. He did not mention a gas backup for low temps so that is suspect. Also of note, the duct work in my house is 8" flexible hose, kind of like a dryer vent. He seems to think this will work fine. I would add a gas water heater, or possible 2 tankless heaters and a gas stove and gas generator.

I like this option as I can rip out the baseboard units. But I remembered ChiefD's comments about duct size and wanted to poll the experts here. The price for the heating and hot water portion is the same as replacing the oil system plus the water heater(s).

Thoughts?

Do the flex lines come off of a main trunk line that is metal?

Good question. Honestly don't know but I'll check.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Another bump on this. Calling in @ChiefD and the rest of y'all.

After limping along with my problems, I finally got Central Hudson to run the gas line and it looks like I'll have it in 2 weeks. Before I received word on the gas line, I had one vendor who is recommending I replace my boiler and baseboard heat and my ac with Fujitsu split system comprised of an outdoor compressor and two mid static air handlers in the attic creating 2 zones. He did not mention a gas backup for low temps so that is suspect. Also of note, the duct work in my house is 8" flexible hose, kind of like a dryer vent. He seems to think this will work fine. I would add a gas water heater, or possible 2 tankless heaters and a gas stove and gas generator.

I like this option as I can rip out the baseboard units. But I remembered ChiefD's comments about duct size and wanted to poll the experts here. The price for the heating and hot water portion is the same as replacing the oil system plus the water heater(s).

Thoughts?

Do the flex lines come off of a main trunk line that is metal?

Final bump as I have to pull the trigger today or tomorrow. The main trunk line now is a big flex line. They are going to replace it with metal, included in the price.

I have two final options:

Option 1: Gas Furnace with Heat Pump
Equipment
• Bosch 92% gas furnace
• New 4.0-ton coil
• Bosch 4-ton 20 SEER heat pump condenser
• New gas line, PVC venting, and proper ductwork modifications

Option 2: Bosch Heat Pump System
Equipment
• Bosch 5-ton Ultra 20 SEER heat pump condenser
• Bosch 5-ton M20 air handler with variable speed blower
• 10kW strip heater
• Proper ductwork modifications
• New condensate drain
• Smart thermostat with room sensors
• Heat pump riser pad
• New air handler pan with float switch

After rebates and tax credits, the two options are essentially the same price. $16k out the door. (Hot water is either a tankless gas or an electric heat pump water heater. I'm leaning to ward the 50 gallon gas tank to save $2k, but I could be convinced.)

The guy seems to think Option 2 will be the best. I just have that lingering fear that if it gets super cold it will struggle. He says that is outdated thinking, but I thought I would ask my FBG expert for any thoughts.

 

[ChiefD]

Another bump on this. Calling in @ChiefD and the rest of y'all.

After limping along with my problems, I finally got Central Hudson to run the gas line and it looks like I'll have it in 2 weeks. Before I received word on the gas line, I had one vendor who is recommending I replace my boiler and baseboard heat and my ac with Fujitsu split system comprised of an outdoor compressor and two mid static air handlers in the attic creating 2 zones. He did not mention a gas backup for low temps so that is suspect. Also of note, the duct work in my house is 8" flexible hose, kind of like a dryer vent. He seems to think this will work fine. I would add a gas water heater, or possible 2 tankless heaters and a gas stove and gas generator.

I like this option as I can rip out the baseboard units. But I remembered ChiefD's comments about duct size and wanted to poll the experts here. The price for the heating and hot water portion is the same as replacing the oil system plus the water heater(s).

Thoughts?

Do the flex lines come off of a main trunk line that is metal?

Final bump as I have to pull the trigger today or tomorrow. The main trunk line now is a big flex line. They are going to replace it with metal, included in the price.

I have two final options:

Option 1: Gas Furnace with Heat Pump
Equipment
• Bosch 92% gas furnace
• New 4.0-ton coil
• Bosch 4-ton 20 SEER heat pump condenser
• New gas line, PVC venting, and proper ductwork modifications

Option 2: Bosch Heat Pump System
Equipment
• Bosch 5-ton Ultra 20 SEER heat pump condenser
• Bosch 5-ton M20 air handler with variable speed blower
• 10kW strip heater
• Proper ductwork modifications
• New condensate drain
• Smart thermostat with room sensors
• Heat pump riser pad
• New air handler pan with float switch

After rebates and tax credits, the two options are essentially the same price. $16k out the door. (Hot water is either a tankless gas or an electric heat pump water heater. I'm leaning to ward the 50 gallon gas tank to save $2k, but I could be convinced.)

The guy seems to think Option 2 will be the best. I just have that lingering fear that if it gets super cold it will struggle. He says that is outdated thinking, but I thought I would ask my FBG expert for any thoughts.

The first immediate question I have is why he is offering two different sized heat pump condensers.

Option 1 has a 4 ton.
Option 2 has a 5 ton.

Not a huge deal until you get to cooling season, because an extra ton of cooling could allow the air conditioner to short cycle. In that situation you would be pulling less humidity out of the air so you house ends up feeling more sticky.

Now, I am guessing both of those heat pumps have two stage compressors, which means when they are running in first stage you will get half of the output (so 2 ton and 2.5 tons of cooling respectively). So on those days that are 85 degrees with a ton of humidity that will work great since they will run a little longer and remove more humidity out of the air.

I am also guessing he quoted 5 ton for option two so you have more heat since it's an all electric system. But I would still clarify it's a two stage compressor.

As for the best option: that's hard for me to say. For me personally I like option one simply for the flexibility it gives me for both gas and electric heat. I'm guessing (and this is just me) gas and electric utilities are going to be volatile for the next however many of years. So I want options and flexibility there.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Another bump on this. Calling in @ChiefD and the rest of y'all.

After limping along with my problems, I finally got Central Hudson to run the gas line and it looks like I'll have it in 2 weeks. Before I received word on the gas line, I had one vendor who is recommending I replace my boiler and baseboard heat and my ac with Fujitsu split system comprised of an outdoor compressor and two mid static air handlers in the attic creating 2 zones. He did not mention a gas backup for low temps so that is suspect. Also of note, the duct work in my house is 8" flexible hose, kind of like a dryer vent. He seems to think this will work fine. I would add a gas water heater, or possible 2 tankless heaters and a gas stove and gas generator.

I like this option as I can rip out the baseboard units. But I remembered ChiefD's comments about duct size and wanted to poll the experts here. The price for the heating and hot water portion is the same as replacing the oil system plus the water heater(s).

Thoughts?

Do the flex lines come off of a main trunk line that is metal?

Final bump as I have to pull the trigger today or tomorrow. The main trunk line now is a big flex line. They are going to replace it with metal, included in the price.

I have two final options:

Option 1: Gas Furnace with Heat Pump
Equipment
• Bosch 92% gas furnace
• New 4.0-ton coil
• Bosch 4-ton 20 SEER heat pump condenser
• New gas line, PVC venting, and proper ductwork modifications

Option 2: Bosch Heat Pump System
Equipment
• Bosch 5-ton Ultra 20 SEER heat pump condenser
• Bosch 5-ton M20 air handler with variable speed blower
• 10kW strip heater
• Proper ductwork modifications
• New condensate drain
• Smart thermostat with room sensors
• Heat pump riser pad
• New air handler pan with float switch

After rebates and tax credits, the two options are essentially the same price. $16k out the door. (Hot water is either a tankless gas or an electric heat pump water heater. I'm leaning to ward the 50 gallon gas tank to save $2k, but I could be convinced.)

The guy seems to think Option 2 will be the best. I just have that lingering fear that if it gets super cold it will struggle. He says that is outdated thinking, but I thought I would ask my FBG expert for any thoughts.

The first immediate question I have is why he is offering two different sized heat pump condensers.

Option 1 has a 4 ton.
Option 2 has a 5 ton.

Not a huge deal until you get to cooling season, because an extra ton of cooling could allow the air conditioner to short cycle. In that situation you would be pulling less humidity out of the air so you house ends up feeling more sticky.

Now, I am guessing both of those heat pumps have two stage compressors, which means when they are running in first stage you will get half of the output (so 2 ton and 2.5 tons of cooling respectively). So on those days that are 85 degrees with a ton of humidity that will work great since they will run a little longer and remove more humidity out of the air.

I am also guessing he quoted 5 ton for option two so you have more heat since it's an all electric system. But I would still clarify it's a two stage compressor.

As for the best option: that's hard for me to say. For me personally I like option one simply for the flexibility it gives me for both gas and electric heat. I'm guessing (and this is just me) gas and electric utilities are going to be volatile for the next however many of years. So I want options and flexibility there.

Thanks GB. Appreciate the insight.

 

[Kanil]

Another bump on this. Calling in @ChiefD and the rest of y'all.

After limping along with my problems, I finally got Central Hudson to run the gas line and it looks like I'll have it in 2 weeks. Before I received word on the gas line, I had one vendor who is recommending I replace my boiler and baseboard heat and my ac with Fujitsu split system comprised of an outdoor compressor and two mid static air handlers in the attic creating 2 zones. He did not mention a gas backup for low temps so that is suspect. Also of note, the duct work in my house is 8" flexible hose, kind of like a dryer vent. He seems to think this will work fine. I would add a gas water heater, or possible 2 tankless heaters and a gas stove and gas generator.

I like this option as I can rip out the baseboard units. But I remembered ChiefD's comments about duct size and wanted to poll the experts here. The price for the heating and hot water portion is the same as replacing the oil system plus the water heater(s).

Thoughts?

Do the flex lines come off of a main trunk line that is metal?

Final bump as I have to pull the trigger today or tomorrow. The main trunk line now is a big flex line. They are going to replace it with metal, included in the price.

I have two final options:

Option 1: Gas Furnace with Heat Pump
Equipment
• Bosch 92% gas furnace
• New 4.0-ton coil
• Bosch 4-ton 20 SEER heat pump condenser
• New gas line, PVC venting, and proper ductwork modifications

Option 2: Bosch Heat Pump System
Equipment
• Bosch 5-ton Ultra 20 SEER heat pump condenser
• Bosch 5-ton M20 air handler with variable speed blower
• 10kW strip heater
• Proper ductwork modifications
• New condensate drain
• Smart thermostat with room sensors
• Heat pump riser pad
• New air handler pan with float switch

After rebates and tax credits, the two options are essentially the same price. $16k out the door. (Hot water is either a tankless gas or an electric heat pump water heater. I'm leaning to ward the 50 gallon gas tank to save $2k, but I could be convinced.)

The guy seems to think Option 2 will be the best. I just have that lingering fear that if it gets super cold it will struggle. He says that is outdated thinking, but I thought I would ask my FBG expert for any thoughts.

I don't have any real knowledge about the heating systems but can tell you about the tankless water heater we have.

TLDR: Tankless takes longer to heat up but lasts forever. If you currently have a traditional tank water heater, and rarely run out of hot water, tankless is probably worse. But, if you are regularly running out of hot water, tankless is awesome.


Tankless heaters take a little while to start heating water which means a longer wait time for you to get fully hot water. The way they "mitigated" this for our house is a recirculation line that they constantly store hot water in. The only problem I have is that line is usually not the same temp as the freshly heated water. So, what you end up with is:

• A period of time (depending on distance from the water heater) where you are pushing out the previously cooled water from the pipe.
  • This is the same for tankless and traditional tank heaters
• A period of time where you have semi-hot water from the recirc line (again depending on the distance from the water heater)
• Then finally the fully heated water

The full process for me, with my water heater in the basement, and my shower on the opposite side of the second floor, takes about 90 seconds to get to the fully heated water. For the bathtub that's 15 feet from the water heater, it takes about 30-40 seconds.

For us, the true benefit of the tankless is that we can all take long showers without ever running out of hot water (our heater has the capacity to run three showers at once). We are a pretty active family and between everyone getting ready at the same time every morning, and things like hiking, golfing, skiing, etc..., we probably have three showers running at the same time 5-8 times a week. Before the tankless, we had to really coordinate when we were all showering, along with things like the dishwasher/laundry.

If it was just my wife and I, we would probably never get any benefit out of the tankless but since we still have several years with a mooching kid at home, I'm super glad we have it.