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Bondo didn't make it (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Greco
- Start date
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Japanese voters 1
U.S. voters 0
U.S. voters 0
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Oppenheimer 1
Japan 0
Japan 0
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Maybe he should go back to being Baldo Bondo.
![[icon]](/data/avatars/m/5/5167.jpg?1660313464){kind=avatar}
[icon]
Insoxicated
Okajima Deserved it
VORP:
Okajima: 22.8 (36th)
Bonderman: 18.6 (50th)
RP (Runs Prevented):
Okajima: 17.8
Bonderman: 6.5
HR/9
Okajima: 0.22
Bonderman: 0.83
PK_RA (Park Adjusted Run Average):
Okajima: 0.87
Bonderman: 4.19
Okajima has been just NASTY. Sheffield was quoted as saying he was the toughest lefty he's ever faced. That's crazy....
VORP:
Okajima: 22.8 (36th)
Bonderman: 18.6 (50th)
RP (Runs Prevented):
Okajima: 17.8
Bonderman: 6.5
HR/9
Okajima: 0.22
Bonderman: 0.83
PK_RA (Park Adjusted Run Average):
Okajima: 0.87
Bonderman: 4.19
Okajima has been just NASTY. Sheffield was quoted as saying he was the toughest lefty he's ever faced. That's crazy....
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bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
what the hell is VORP?
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Value over replacement player. And [icon] you are incorrect if you think a set-up reliever deserves an all-star spot over a starting pitcher that is 9-1. That's just crazy talk and comparing a starting pitcher with a guy who gets called in sometimes with one out and the bases empty to get two batters is fairly ridiculous. You should know better.ETA: And I don't want to hear about VORP or anything else. This is like saying a guy who comes off the bench in basketball and hits two shots a game in three attempts deserves to be on the All-Star team over the guy who averages 26 because his FG, 3PT, and assist to turnover ratio is better. Thank the island of Japan for Okajima's election because that's the only way he was getting in.
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bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
oh ok. Man baseball has made up stats for everything. Park Adjusted run average?
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Park adjustments are figured into all historical stats like OPS+, OAV+, and many other statistics to try and measure the contributions of players who played in different eras and different parks. That's why many people like me will use park adjusted numbers to compare Rogers Hornsby with say Wade Boggs. You can also use park factors to try and determine the difference in range factors for two given players.
[icon]
Insoxicated
With all due respect I disagree. You're implying that Okajima has pitched a fraction of the innings that Bonderman has... when he's pitched quite a few (41 vs 98.. nearly half in 38g vs Bondermans 15 starts). I'd argue that high-level guys like Okajima get brought in with tougher situations more frequently than your average middle reliever as well. OK has been brought into some pretty tough spots this year to get some big outs and has come up very well. The argument about being brought in with bases empty to get 3 outs is a bit absurd as a starter ilke Bonderman starts every inning with the bases empty just like Okajima. Bonderman, however, is never inserted into a rough spot like 2nd and 3rd with 1 out and expected to get out of the jam. I don't have OK's inherited runner stats in front of me but he's been VERY good in those situations.Point is... the AL is LOADED with top shelf starters this year... all a good bit better than Bonderman. Whereas Okajima is one of the top setup men in all of baseball right now. I think dismissing his insertion as simply a product of his native country's vote is just as absurd as asserting that Bonderman's votes coming only from his hometown. Both are excellent pitchers, but Okajima is better at his job than Bonderman is at his.
ThisGuy
Ignored by Nipsey
If Okajima didin't play in Boston, [icon] wouldn't be posting this.
MrJimmy
Footballguy
Bah. This is like arguing whether a DH can win the MVP.
Both are deserving, and I'd tend to come down on the side of the 9-1 guy on a first place team, but Okajima can hardly have been expected to be any better than he has been. It's more a matter of defining the relative importance of a SU vs. SP.
Both are deserving, and I'd tend to come down on the side of the 9-1 guy on a first place team, but Okajima can hardly have been expected to be any better than he has been. It's more a matter of defining the relative importance of a SU vs. SP.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
I doubt it. Seriously. I hope they release the voting statistics on this.
Under this theory you are telling me that a relief pitcher is worth more than a starter or at least is worth the same. So I would imagine that from here on out we will see more relief pitchers as top prospects and more relief pitchers getting 100 million dollar contracts. Correct?
Not really.
Code:
IP K/9 WHIP W-L ERA+Bonderman 98 .91 1.184 9-1 122Beckett 102 .90 1.137 12-2 130Sabathia 133 .86 1.170 12-3 121Verlander 109 .89 1.147 10-3 140Lackey 113 .77 1.189 11-5 140Santana 121 1.0 1.033 10-6 158Haren 123 .80 0.984 10-2 195
the moops
Footballguy
Yes, really. Besides Sabathia, the others are having much, much better years than Bonderman. 8 points of ERA+ is quite a significant margin. Not to mention the 18 points to the other 2, or the 36 and 73 to Santana and Haren.And yes, no doubt Haren should get the start.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Lackey? Seriously? Might want to look again. Haren>Santana>>Verlander>Beckett>Sabathia>Lackey>Bonderman. But in the end Bonderman is still more important to his team than Okajima will ever be. Same with Halliday who also deserves it more than Okajima. Anyway if 8 ERA+ is significant (which I don't believe is so) then Verlander is having a much, much better season than Josh Beckett. Your call.
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the moops
Footballguy
I don't think, nor have I ever said that Josh Beckett is having a better season than Verlander. I may be a Sox fan, but I'm not an idiot.
However, I think Okajima may deserve it because he is the best middle reliever in the AL this season. If they are going to take middle relievers, as seems to be the case, then you gotta go with him.I don't think anyone is arguing that Okajima is more valuable than Bonderman. That would be a ridiculous argument to try and make. But this isn't an MVP argument, so it is irrelevant who is more valuabke.
[icon]
Insoxicated
I don't think, nor have I ever said that Josh Beckett is having a better season than Verlander. I may be a Sox fan, but I'm not an idiot.
However, I think Okajima may deserve it because he is the best middle reliever in the AL this season. If they are going to take middle relievers, as seems to be the case, then you gotta go with him.
I don't think anyone is arguing that Okajima is more valuable than Bonderman. That would be a ridiculous argument to try and make. But this isn't an MVP argument, so it is irrelevant who is more valuabke.
Exactly.This isn't a MVP race.. it's an all star game. OK is the best set up man in the game right now and one of the best relievers overall. To automatically assume his impact on the Red Sox isn't very big would be erroneous at best and foolish at worst.
RELIEVERS EXPECTED WINS ADDED (WXRL)
Win Expectation above Replacement, Lineup-adjusted.
# NAME TEAM LG YEAR G IP WX WXL WXR WXRL LEV
1. J.j. Putz SEA AL 2007 37 40.0 3.768 3.813 4.531 4.575 1.62
2. Takashi Saito LAN NL 2007 35 35.7 3.125 3.195 3.852 3.930 1.90
3. Jonathan Papelbon BOS AL 2007 31 32.0 2.751 2.964 3.456 3.641 1.65
4. Rafael Betancourt CLE AL 2007 34 37.7 2.829 2.956 3.351 3.469 1.59
5. Hideki Okajima BOS AL 2007 38 41.0 2.383 2.640 2.947 3.176 1.23
6. Heath Bell SDN NL 2007 41 49.7 2.423 2.579 2.977 3.112 1.60
7. Billy Wagner NYN NL 2007 35 37.3 2.329 2.415 2.946 3.043 1.56
8. Matt Capps PIT NL 2007 46 48.3 1.841 2.178 2.709 3.005 1.78
9. Tony Pena ARI NL 2007 39 47.0 2.253 2.412 2.831 2.974 1.47
10. Rafael Soriano ATL NL 2007 39 37.7 2.121 2.306 2.733 2.911 1.40
11. Pat Neshek MIN AL 2007 40 41.3 2.104 2.208 2.523 2.627 1.25
That means OK has had a greater impact on Boston's win total than all but 4 other relievers in the game... 1 being Boston's Closer (Papelbon).
Okajima deserves to be in this game.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
I'll agree that we disagree but I've stated my case and believe it to be true. I wanted Bonderman to get in but at the same time not having him flying all over and getting a little rest isn't a bad thing. Plus maybe he'll have a little chip on his shoulder (not in his shoulder!) for the rest of the season. Hopefully he takes his displeasure out on the Red Sox tomorrow.I don't think, nor have I ever said that Josh Beckett is having a better season than Verlander. I may be a Sox fan, but I'm not an idiot.
However, I think Okajima may deserve it because he is the best middle reliever in the AL this season. If they are going to take middle relievers, as seems to be the case, then you gotta go with him.
I don't think anyone is arguing that Okajima is more valuable than Bonderman. That would be a ridiculous argument to try and make. But this isn't an MVP argument, so it is irrelevant who is more valuabke.
This isn't a MVP race.. it's an all star game. OK is the best set up man in the game right now and one of the best relievers overall. To automatically assume his impact on the Red Sox isn't very big would be erroneous at best and foolish at worst.
RELIEVERS EXPECTED WINS ADDED (WXRL)
Win Expectation above Replacement, Lineup-adjusted.
# NAME TEAM LG YEAR G IP WX WXL WXR WXRL LEV
1. J.j. Putz SEA AL 2007 37 40.0 3.768 3.813 4.531 4.575 1.62
2. Takashi Saito LAN NL 2007 35 35.7 3.125 3.195 3.852 3.930 1.90
3. Jonathan Papelbon BOS AL 2007 31 32.0 2.751 2.964 3.456 3.641 1.65
4. Rafael Betancourt CLE AL 2007 34 37.7 2.829 2.956 3.351 3.469 1.59
5. Hideki Okajima BOS AL 2007 38 41.0 2.383 2.640 2.947 3.176 1.23
6. Heath Bell SDN NL 2007 41 49.7 2.423 2.579 2.977 3.112 1.60
7. Billy Wagner NYN NL 2007 35 37.3 2.329 2.415 2.946 3.043 1.56
8. Matt Capps PIT NL 2007 46 48.3 1.841 2.178 2.709 3.005 1.78
9. Tony Pena ARI NL 2007 39 47.0 2.253 2.412 2.831 2.974 1.47
10. Rafael Soriano ATL NL 2007 39 37.7 2.121 2.306 2.733 2.911 1.40
11. Pat Neshek MIN AL 2007 40 41.3 2.104 2.208 2.523 2.627 1.25
That means OK has had a greater impact on Boston's win total than all but 4 other relievers in the game... 1 being Boston's Closer (Papelbon).
Okajima deserves to be in this game.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
I've always had this theory that it helps a player and his team not to make the all-star team for these same two reasons.
redman
Footballguy
So sorry, but I take issue with your math.-Nagasaki
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Good point. Fixed.
Greco
Footballguy
Sal Bando was the ####.
jabarony
Footballguy
Not bashing Okajima, but just a thought about relievers in general compared to starting pitchers.1A - Bonderman has to face the entire lineup. There is no coming in for L-L R-R matchups that favor a relief pitcher. 1B - Bonderman has to face the same hitters multiple times throughout the game which is absolutely a disadvantage as the hitters can get the timing and pitches down. Okajima + innings = Hideo Nomo (j/k)2 - As far as tough situations go, you are right about the pressure. However, men on base is not necessarily bad for a reliever as far as individual statistics go. His ERA only depends on the batter, so double plays, runners-out stretching hits etc. can only help an individual.
[icon]
Insoxicated
Valid points.... but wanted to say:1A = Somewhat true for many relievers (like LOOGYs, and middle relief situtational specialists like Mike Myers) but OK is a setup guy who's usually brought in just for the 8th (or 9th)... or brought in to kill a budding rally (ie 1st and 3rd with 1 out). His use is substantially more about situation (runners/inning) than it is about exploiting situational matchups. His stats actually support that he is a balanced guy:ERALH: 0.64 (14 IP)RH: 1.00 (27 IP)WHIPLH: 0.93RH: 0.70SLG%LH: .204RH: 185OBALH: .241RH: .196While the ERA favors LH slightly... Righties are actually having a little more trouble getting on base (or extra bases) against him. This are not the numbers of a guy who's brought in based on the orientation (LH/RH) of the hitter. 1B: This is certainly a factor2: Correct but I mentioned earlier that OK is no Mike Timlin when it comes to letting inherited runners to score. IIRC He's only allowed one or so all season.... he's clearly dominant in those situations as well as he's boston's go-to guy in a pinch in the late 7th or 8th. Again.. I certainly see the differences but given the high leverage situations that these guys are brought in for, but a guy like OK who not only has insane regular metrics, but also strands tons of guys on base in these high leverage situations is seeing tougher at bats on average than a starter. Again.. IMHO. Good debate though... certainly a way to see both sides.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Bonderman proved he is one of the top pitchers in the game tonight. As I said before starting pitcher>relief pitcher and it's not even close. Okajima's vote count almost equaled the other 4 candidates combined and Japan got him in. I'll take Bonderman over him or over any other starter in baseball not named Santana and I mean that. 24 years old and he's just incredible. Too bad a relief pitcher is going in instead of him. Just a shame.
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Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Nice job by Okajima tonight also. Screw it, Gil Meche should be bumped. 
[icon]
Insoxicated
Dude... you gotta quit with the crying about the japanese vote...seriously. Bonderman did well but come on... 7 hits, 2 runs, and 3BB in 8 innings in your own house isn't exactly the performance you're making this out to be. I know you're excited but let's take off the Old English Skivvies for a second and be just a LITTLE objective.
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