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Bonds (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Wrigley
- Start date
commisholio
Come out with your pants down!
The best hitter in a high offense steroid-using era.
ThisGuy
Ignored by Nipsey
Probably as a pretty good investment. Municipal bonds are ridiculously safe to invest in
SeveredHorseHeads
Footballguy
Probably on some kind of high-tech super fancy TV.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
The Ty Cobb of his generation. Except he's black.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
I'm 100 percent sure Ty Cobb just rolled over in his grave.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
baseball won't be nearly as popular and we won't really care much about Bonds. Football and basketball will be by far the two biggest sports. Baseball will be on par with hockey.
Right, and they'll all be behind soccer and poker.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
Doctor Detroit said:
...although that's probably the best comparison I've seen. I actually think most of the steriod stuff will be seen as pretty mundane in 100 years since by then we'll (and yes I'm planning on being here) genetically altering/medicating/etc. everything (i.e. we're sort of living in the era pre-electricity now). Hell in 30 years the stuff going on now will be mundane.
Wrigley
Footballguy
So what you're saying is that Bonds is kind of a pioneer of sorts?Oh, and Cobb was a dirty player......and Bonds is a cheater.Doctor Detroit said:...although that's probably the best comparison I've seen. I actually think most of the steriod stuff will be seen as pretty mundane in 100 years since by then we'll (and yes I'm planning on being here) genetically altering/medicating/etc. everything (i.e. we're sort of living in the era pre-electricity now). Hell in 30 years the stuff going on now will be mundane.
prefontaine
Footballguy
I'm certainly not a Bonds fan but I find it interesting when people use words like cheater about him. Here is a list of MVP winners from 96-04. How many of them do you think didn't juice?ALSo what you're saying is that Bonds is kind of a pioneer of sorts?Oh, and Cobb was a dirty player......and Bonds is a cheater.Doctor Detroit said:...although that's probably the best comparison I've seen. I actually think most of the steriod stuff will be seen as pretty mundane in 100 years since by then we'll (and yes I'm planning on being here) genetically altering/medicating/etc. everything (i.e. we're sort of living in the era pre-electricity now). Hell in 30 years the stuff going on now will be mundane.
2004 Vladimir Guerrero Anaheim RF
2003 Alex Rodriguez Texas SS
2002 Miguel Tejada Oakland SS (Publicly Acused/Outed)
2001 Ichiro Suzuki Seattle RF
2000 Jason Giambi Oakland 1B (Confirmed)
1999 Ivan Rodriguez Texas C (Publicly Acused/Outed)
1998 Juan Gonzalez Texas OF (Publicly Acused/Outed)
1997 Ken Griffey, Jr. Seattle OF
1996 Juan Gonzalez Texas OF (Publicly Acused/Outed)
NL
2004 Barry Bonds San Francisco LF (Publicly Acused/Outed)
2003 Barry Bonds San Francisco LF (Publicly Acused/Outed)
2002 Barry Bonds San Francisco LF (Publicly Acused/Outed)
2001 Barry Bonds San Francisco LF (Publicly Acused/Outed)
2000 Jeff Kent San Francisco 2B
1999 Chipper Jones Atlanta 3B
1998 Sammy Sosa Chicago OF (Publicly Acused/Outed)
1997 Larry Walker Colorado OF
1996 Ken Caminiti San Diego 3B (Confirmed)
Other than Ichiro, I have strong suspicions of all of them. I'd like to think A-Rod and Vlady are clean but this is a lot like the Lance Armstrong argument to me. When a player dominates a group of people that are confirmed to be taking performance enhancing drugs, it's hard to believe that they are so much better than their juiced up counterparts that they dominate them without such help. A-Rod, Vlad and interestingly enough, Bonds, are the only ones that really have been dominant players since testing began. Many of them have had a lot of injuries. Most had very suspicious drop offs once testing began. Most aren't old enough to see this kind of drop naturally.
If the best were doing this, do you really think the marginal players were not? I'm not a fan of Bonds. But I'm also realistic. I can't hate Bonds (for this) or I have to hate all of baseball.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
They were also the best player of their generation.So what you're saying is that Bonds is kind of a pioneer of sorts?Oh, and Cobb was a dirty player......and Bonds is a cheater.Doctor Detroit said:...although that's probably the best comparison I've seen. I actually think most of the steriod stuff will be seen as pretty mundane in 100 years since by then we'll (and yes I'm planning on being here) genetically altering/medicating/etc. everything (i.e. we're sort of living in the era pre-electricity now). Hell in 30 years the stuff going on now will be mundane.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Bonds also won MVPs in 90, 92, and 93. Consider that in 1993 a very skinny Bonds hit 46 home runs. He also was 336/448/624 (1.136 OPS) and had 126 BBs. He also has eight gold gloves, twelve silver sluggers, two batting titles, is the all time leader in walks, was in the top ten in stolen bases nine times, has a career OBP of .443, and is a 13 time All Star.I'm certainly not a Bonds fan but I find it interesting when people use words like cheater about him. Here is a list of MVP winners from 96-04. How many of them do you think didn't juice?ALSo what you're saying is that Bonds is kind of a pioneer of sorts?Oh, and Cobb was a dirty player......and Bonds is a cheater.Doctor Detroit said:
2004 Vladimir Guerrero Anaheim RF
2003 Alex Rodriguez Texas SS
2002 Miguel Tejada Oakland SS (Publicly Acused/Outed)
2001 Ichiro Suzuki Seattle RF
2000 Jason Giambi Oakland 1B (Confirmed)
1999 Ivan Rodriguez Texas C (Publicly Acused/Outed)
1998 Juan Gonzalez Texas OF (Publicly Acused/Outed)
1997 Ken Griffey, Jr. Seattle OF
1996 Juan Gonzalez Texas OF (Publicly Acused/Outed)
NL
2004 Barry Bonds San Francisco LF (Publicly Acused/Outed)
2003 Barry Bonds San Francisco LF (Publicly Acused/Outed)
2002 Barry Bonds San Francisco LF (Publicly Acused/Outed)
2001 Barry Bonds San Francisco LF (Publicly Acused/Outed)
2000 Jeff Kent San Francisco 2B
1999 Chipper Jones Atlanta 3B
1998 Sammy Sosa Chicago OF (Publicly Acused/Outed)
1997 Larry Walker Colorado OF
1996 Ken Caminiti San Diego 3B (Confirmed)
Other than Ichiro, I have strong suspicions of all of them. I'd like to think A-Rod and Vlady are clean but this is a lot like the Lance Armstrong argument to me. When a player dominates a group of people that are confirmed to be taking performance enhancing drugs, it's hard to believe that they are so much better than their juiced up counterparts that they dominate them without such help. A-Rod, Vlad and interestingly enough, Bonds, are the only ones that really have been dominant players since testing began. Many of them have had a lot of injuries. Most had very suspicious drop offs once testing began. Most aren't old enough to see this kind of drop naturally.
If the best were doing this, do you really think the marginal players were not? I'm not a fan of Bonds. But I'm also realistic. I can't hate Bonds (for this) or I have to hate all of baseball.
Look at his range factors in LF from early in his career. Hell look at his range factors from 2002. He has only led the league in homers twice and was going to be considered one of the greatest players of his generation regardless. At least in those alleged steroid years he had some of the best hitting seasons in Major League history. He out hit, out fielded, and out ran guys who were also jacked up. He out hit, out fielded and out ran guys when he was skinny.
How will he be remembered? By all those who hate him just for being Barry Bonds probably not all that well. These people didn't like Bonds in 1995. I'm a neutral baseball enthusiast when it comes to Bonds and he is the best player I've ever seen play and then some.
Wrigley
Footballguy
DD, so when your kids ask you about Bonds, and the records he has broken, what are you going to tell them?
That he was the greatest player you have ever seen......or that he cheated to get to were he is?
I agree, before Bonds went on the juice, he was the greatest player on the planet........now he is nothing more than a cheat in the eyes.
And that is what I'll tell my kids.
That he was the greatest player you have ever seen......or that he cheated to get to were he is?
I agree, before Bonds went on the juice, he was the greatest player on the planet........now he is nothing more than a cheat in the eyes.
And that is what I'll tell my kids.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
The home run record and him being the best player I've ever seen are mutually exclusive. I will listen to people who take issue with the home run record but I pretty much ignore anyone who denies that he wasn't one of the best players to ever play the game. As far as the cheating goes it was a sign of the times and he wasn't in the minority. He just worked out harder, continued to hone his game, and was already as gifted as anyone not named Ted Williams as far as hand and eye coordination. Considering baseball took no action to stop this trend of using performance enhancing drugs I have always considered anything the players did that was not banned by the sport to be part of the game. From using pine tar, to Vaseline, to razor blades, to amphetamines, to cocaine, to spikes, to reflectors in centerfield, to stealing signs, and so on. If baseball was concerned about the problem they would have tested or at least dug deeper. I also take issue with Mark McGuire not getting more scrutiny in this whole conversation. Bonds knew he was a better player and a Grand Jury testimony says Bonds resorted to using some enhancers based on all the McGuire hub-bub in 1998. What Bonds should have done is nibble on the edges of the performance enhancing world and just kept playing the way he was playing. All these statistics compiled over the past two decades are outside of the norm. IMO they would have to take every record since 1986 and throw it out or start the stat ledger anew just to make sure. But baseball is very cyclical in nature and there have been advantages for certain payers from the beginning. From higher pitching mounds, to dead baseballs, to live baseballs, to not allowing blacks or Latinos to play, to free agency, to the center field fence at Navin Field and the Polo Grounds. To me in the end, everything averages out. That’s just baseball. It’s a strange and wonderful game.
commisholio
Come out with your pants down!
Some damn good posting there. Right on, almost exactly how I feel about the whole thing.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
That he is one of the greatest players I've ever seen.
