Bounty-gate (1 Viewer)

[32 Counter Pass]

It does not surprise me that the Saints are struggling without Payton. I just did not anticipate that their play would slip so far. The loss at home to the Chiefs was shocking.

I understand that Goodell had to punish the Saints to nip this issue in the bud, but I am now beginning to wonder if Goodell went too far.

I now suspect that ultimately the fans are going to suffer much more than any of the people involved in this mess.

Interested to hear the community thoughts on this issue.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Goodell has a second lawsuit on his hands:

"A New Orleans Saints fan is taking NFL commissioner Roger Goodell to federal court, seeking in excess of $5,000,000 in the damages. (See lawsuit)

David James Macina, a St. Tammany resident and Saints season ticket holder, filed a class-action lawsuit against Goodell and the National Football League in the U.S. District Court for the punishments meted against Saints players, coaches and management for their roles in the bounty scandal."

"“(D)ue to the unfair, prejudicial, unreasonable, and vindictive” actions by Goodell and the NFL, those suspensions severely damaged the on-field product and the value of the season tickets to Macina and other Saints fans."

http://www.wwltv.com/news/Saints-fans-file-class-action-lawsuit-against-NFL-Goodell-174400261.html

Well, Rog, the good news is you took your little test case to the most labor unfriendly state in the nation. The bad news is you landed in front of teh most labor friendly judge on that court.

And in the first lawsuit - Vilma's, since joined by Hargrove formerly of the Packers, Fujita of the Browns, and Will Smith - the FEDERAL judge is now asking for documents:

"A federal magistrate judge has ordered NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell to provide the court with documents related to the league's bounty investigation of the New Orleans Saints."

http://www.wwltv.com/news/Judges-wants-to-see-NFL-bounty-documents-174422661.html

So that's progress.

And meanwhile, Vilma is coming back to play linebacker versus the Bucs.

"On Oct. 9, Goodell again levied suspensions on the players, giving Vilma the final 11 games of the season. But the linebacker, along with the other players, again are appealing the ruling, keeping them eligible for now. Goodell will hear the appeals on Oct. 23."

http://www.wwltv.com/sports/New-Orleans-Saints-NFL-bounty-linebacker-Jonathan-Vilma-defensive-coordinator-Steve-Spagnuolo-Oct152012-174258981.html

 

[cobalt_27]

Man, how seriously stupid of that saints fan. Nice way to tie up resources on frivolous lawsuits.

Worse part about the saints players actually engaging in a pay to injure scheme is the number of saints fans coming out and acting like complete knuckleheads. Stain on the organization spreading to its fanbase.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Man, how seriously stupid of that saints fan. Nice way to tie up resources on frivolous lawsuits.

Worse part about the saints players actually engaging in a pay to injure scheme is the number of saints fans coming out and acting like complete knuckleheads. Stain on the organization spreading to its fanbase.

Dude, this is LOUISIANA: we lead the country in frivolous lawsuits and frivolous is what we do.Good place to get mired. This whole situation was totally predictable from the NFL's perspective at the beginning of the year.

But, in all honesty, people, fans here, as someone else pointed out, are feeling genuinely like the most harmed parties here. First and second round draft picks for multiple years gone, a team coming off three dominating to near-dominating seasons, eviscerated from the top down. It's too much. It's been said elsewhere but Goodell could have acted appropriately, drawn the line, sent a message and accomplished what needed to be accomplished without decimating the franchise and the team the fans love to see, and yes here there is a very strong connection.

 

[GregR]

Man, how seriously stupid of that saints fan. Nice way to tie up resources on frivolous lawsuits.

Worse part about the saints players actually engaging in a pay to injure scheme is the number of saints fans coming out and acting like complete knuckleheads. Stain on the organization spreading to its fanbase.

Dude, this is LOUISIANA: we lead the country in frivolous lawsuits and frivolous is what we do.Good place to get mired. This whole situation was totally predictable from the NFL's perspective at the beginning of the year.

But, in all honesty, people, fans here, as someone else pointed out, are feeling genuinely like the most harmed parties here. First and second round draft picks for multiple years gone, a team coming off three dominating to near-dominating seasons, eviscerated from the top down. It's too much. It's been said elsewhere but Goodell could have acted appropriately, drawn the line, sent a message and accomplished what needed to be accomplished without decimating the franchise and the team the fans love to see, and yes here there is a very strong connection.

Think you got confused there. Giving up 2012 and 2013 2nd round picks was a punishment.

Giving up a 2012 1st round pick to get Mark Ingram the year before only feels like a punishment.

 

[netmau5]

As a long time Saints fan, I felt robbed by Goodell and I don't find this lawsuit by season ticket holders extreme at all. I, for one, sold all my tickets this year at firesale. As much as I love the Saints, I just didn't have the heart to travel 8 hours 8 times this season to watch a gutted team. Greg Williams? Fine. Some player suspensions? Ok with that too. Head coach and GM? WTF. Draft picks? That is insane.

I'm sure I'll go to more NFL games in the future. My lifelong quest to visit every stadium is still only 25% complete. But I will never be a season ticket holder again.

 

[Disc Shark]

Man, how seriously stupid of that saints fan. Nice way to tie up resources on frivolous lawsuits.

Worse part about the saints players actually engaging in a pay to injure scheme is the number of saints fans coming out and acting like complete knuckleheads. Stain on the organization spreading to its fanbase.

Dude, this is LOUISIANA: we lead the country in frivolous lawsuits and frivolous is what we do.Good place to get mired. This whole situation was totally predictable from the NFL's perspective at the beginning of the year.

But, in all honesty, people, fans here, as someone else pointed out, are feeling genuinely like the most harmed parties here. First and second round draft picks for multiple years gone, a team coming off three dominating to near-dominating seasons, eviscerated from the top down. It's too much. It's been said elsewhere but Goodell could have acted appropriately, drawn the line, sent a message and accomplished what needed to be accomplished without decimating the franchise and the team the fans love to see, and yes here there is a very strong connection.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Man, how seriously stupid of that saints fan. Nice way to tie up resources on frivolous lawsuits.

Worse part about the saints players actually engaging in a pay to injure scheme is the number of saints fans coming out and acting like complete knuckleheads. Stain on the organization spreading to its fanbase.

Dude, this is LOUISIANA: we lead the country in frivolous lawsuits and frivolous is what we do.Good place to get mired. This whole situation was totally predictable from the NFL's perspective at the beginning of the year.

But, in all honesty, people, fans here, as someone else pointed out, are feeling genuinely like the most harmed parties here. First and second round draft picks for multiple years gone, a team coming off three dominating to near-dominating seasons, eviscerated from the top down. It's too much. It's been said elsewhere but Goodell could have acted appropriately, drawn the line, sent a message and accomplished what needed to be accomplished without decimating the franchise and the team the fans love to see, and yes here there is a very strong connection.

Think you got confused there. Giving up 2012 and 2013 2nd round picks was a punishment.

Giving up a 2012 1st round pick to get Mark Ingram the year before only feels like a punishment.

Thank you. Now, see, we can still laugh (and cry).

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

This just in:

he NFL Players Association filed papers in federal court pointing out that the NFL permitted a 1996 incentive program for big hits funded by then-Green Bay defensive lineman Reggie White.

In papers filed Thursday in U.S. District Court, the union questioned why NFL commissioner Roger Goodell should now be able to suspend former Saints linebacker Scott Fujita for offering then-New Orleans teammates rewards for big plays during the 2009 season.

The filing cited media reports about White's "smash-for-cash" program that paid $500 for big plays, including big hits.The reports, now nearly 16 years old, include players from other teams discussing similar pools climbing into the thousands of dollars. In one report by ESPN, Troy Vincent, then a defensive back with Philadelphia, discusses a similar player-funded incentive program run by Eagles players.

Vincent now works for the NFL as a vice president overseeing player engagement.

In the reports, an NFL spokesman is quoted as saying the incentive programs are permitted as long as players use their own money and the amounts players pledge are not exorbitant.

The union said that while the NFL's player safety goals may have evolved since 1996, it is unfair to punish players for behavior it previously permitted without formally spelling out that such behavior is no longer allowed.

"The fact that the NFL has a different agenda today than it did in 1996 cannot change the unequivocal language of the NFL Constitution & Bylaws, which has never prohibited this type of behavior," the union wrote in its legal briefs. "The commissioner's attempt to nonetheless suspend and scapegoat Mr. Fujita for conduct -- incentivizing undisputed, legitimate plays -- never before punished or prohibited by the NFL not only violates the 'essence of the (collective bargaining) agreement' but further demonstrates the commissioner's evident partiality."

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8522434/nflpa-files-papers-federal-court-cites-nfl-permitted-incentive-program-1996

Former Giants DT Jimmy Kennedy issued a statement in which he called Roger Goodell a liar for naming him as a rat:

The Commissioner of the NFL recently distributed a memo to all 32 NFL teams regarding the alleged Saints bounty program that contained blatant lies about me, thereby adding me to the list of men whose reputations and character have been irreparably damaged by the shoddy, careless, shameful so-called investigation behind this sham proceeding. Roger Goodell identifies me as the “whistleblower” who approached former Viking coach Brad Childress about an alleged bounty on Brett Favre in the NFC Championship game.

That is a lie. I had no knowledge about any alleged bounty to reveal to anyone, and I never informed anyone that I did. Contrary to the false information disseminated by the NFL, Coach Childress approached me and asked me if I knew anything about such an allegation, and I told him the truth: I did not. I had no knowledge of any such alleged bounty.

Roger Goodell also states that I was interviewed by the NFL about the alleged bounty. That is another lie; I was never interviewed by the NFL, unless the NFL considers two 30-second conversations when I told NFL Security that I had no knowledge of any such allegations “interviews.” I certainly do not.

After the second phone call that I received from NFL, in which I once again told the person that I had absolutely no knowledge of any alleged bounty, I called my agent, who then retained an attorney for me. We informed the NFL Security person that further contact with me should occur through my attorney, and interestingly, we never heard from the NFL again.

The third lie that Roger Goodell told about me is perhaps the most upsetting because it involves a man for whom I have great respect and affection, Anthony Hargrove. The NFL states that Anthony Hargrove told me about the alleged bounty on Brett Favre. That is an utter lie; it simply never happened. I never discussed an alleged bounty with Anthony Hargrove before, during or after the NFC Championship game. The only discussion I have had with Anthony about the alleged bounty occurred when we recently spoke about the NFL’s egregiously flawed and unjust investigation and proceeding.

I am not one of the players who has been officially disciplined by the NFL as part of this sham, but I now know that I too have been damaged by the NFL’s complete disregard for truth and integrity.

http://sulia.com/channel/new-york-giants/f/8d847a3a-9d48-428c-a008-2ec58bbe175e/?source=twitter

Redskins, Bills, Rams, Packers, Eagles, Browns, Giants, several teams besides the Saints involved in this.

And the above speak for themselves: there was precedent in the NFL and the integrity of the Commissioner and the League are now on the line.

And now for the first time ever (am I wrong on that?) the Commissioner has been forced to step aside on the basis of a lack of impartiality. This is a huge, huge deal.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

In today's version of crazy #### Roger does:

ProFootballTalk.com reported Tuesday the NFLPA will ask Tagliabue to step aside, too, considering the Goodell mentor unfit for the role of objective arbitrator in bounty punishment appeal hearings for Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma, defensive end Will Smith, Browns linebacker Scott Fujita and free agent Anthony Hargrove.

The basis for the objection includes Taglibue's employment at Covington and Burling, a law firm that represents the NFL in the bounty litigation. Tagliabue is also considered a potential witness based on the NFL condoning programs that toed the line of "pay for performance" in the 1990s when he was the league's commissioner.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/football/nfl/10/23/paul-tagliabue-nflpa/index.html#ixzz2AA5alEcD

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/football/nfl/10/23/paul-tagliabue-nflpa/index.htmlGee, it just so happens that the ex-Commish who everyone respects just happens to be working at the firm actually defending the NFL in the very same case(s) at the very same moment.

Objective, impartial, fair arbiter. Not.

 

[delusional]

I am tired of the guy, he needs to go.

The hiring of Tags was just unreal considering how connected he is to this case thru the NFL side.

 

[psychobillies]

This just in:

he NFL Players Association filed papers in federal court pointing out that the NFL permitted a 1996 incentive program for big hits funded by then-Green Bay defensive lineman Reggie White.

In papers filed Thursday in U.S. District Court, the union questioned why NFL commissioner Roger Goodell should now be able to suspend former Saints linebacker Scott Fujita for offering then-New Orleans teammates rewards for big plays during the 2009 season.

The filing cited media reports about White's "smash-for-cash" program that paid $500 for big plays, including big hits.The reports, now nearly 16 years old, include players from other teams discussing similar pools climbing into the thousands of dollars. In one report by ESPN, Troy Vincent, then a defensive back with Philadelphia, discusses a similar player-funded incentive program run by Eagles players.

Vincent now works for the NFL as a vice president overseeing player engagement.

In the reports, an NFL spokesman is quoted as saying the incentive programs are permitted as long as players use their own money and the amounts players pledge are not exorbitant.

The union said that while the NFL's player safety goals may have evolved since 1996, it is unfair to punish players for behavior it previously permitted without formally spelling out that such behavior is no longer allowed.

"The fact that the NFL has a different agenda today than it did in 1996 cannot change the unequivocal language of the NFL Constitution & Bylaws, which has never prohibited this type of behavior," the union wrote in its legal briefs. "The commissioner's attempt to nonetheless suspend and scapegoat Mr. Fujita for conduct -- incentivizing undisputed, legitimate plays -- never before punished or prohibited by the NFL not only violates the 'essence of the (collective bargaining) agreement' but further demonstrates the commissioner's evident partiality."

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8522434/nflpa-files-papers-federal-court-cites-nfl-permitted-incentive-program-1996

Former Giants DT Jimmy Kennedy issued a statement in which he called Roger Goodell a liar for naming him as a rat:

The Commissioner of the NFL recently distributed a memo to all 32 NFL teams regarding the alleged Saints bounty program that contained blatant lies about me, thereby adding me to the list of men whose reputations and character have been irreparably damaged by the shoddy, careless, shameful so-called investigation behind this sham proceeding. Roger Goodell identifies me as the “whistleblower” who approached former Viking coach Brad Childress about an alleged bounty on Brett Favre in the NFC Championship game.

That is a lie. I had no knowledge about any alleged bounty to reveal to anyone, and I never informed anyone that I did. Contrary to the false information disseminated by the NFL, Coach Childress approached me and asked me if I knew anything about such an allegation, and I told him the truth: I did not. I had no knowledge of any such alleged bounty.

Roger Goodell also states that I was interviewed by the NFL about the alleged bounty. That is another lie; I was never interviewed by the NFL, unless the NFL considers two 30-second conversations when I told NFL Security that I had no knowledge of any such allegations “interviews.” I certainly do not.

After the second phone call that I received from NFL, in which I once again told the person that I had absolutely no knowledge of any alleged bounty, I called my agent, who then retained an attorney for me. We informed the NFL Security person that further contact with me should occur through my attorney, and interestingly, we never heard from the NFL again.

The third lie that Roger Goodell told about me is perhaps the most upsetting because it involves a man for whom I have great respect and affection, Anthony Hargrove. The NFL states that Anthony Hargrove told me about the alleged bounty on Brett Favre. That is an utter lie; it simply never happened. I never discussed an alleged bounty with Anthony Hargrove before, during or after the NFC Championship game. The only discussion I have had with Anthony about the alleged bounty occurred when we recently spoke about the NFL’s egregiously flawed and unjust investigation and proceeding.

I am not one of the players who has been officially disciplined by the NFL as part of this sham, but I now know that I too have been damaged by the NFL’s complete disregard for truth and integrity.

http://sulia.com/channel/new-york-giants/f/8d847a3a-9d48-428c-a008-2ec58bbe175e/?source=twitter

Redskins, Bills, Rams, Packers, Eagles, Browns, Giants, several teams besides the Saints involved in this.

And the above speak for themselves: there was precedent in the NFL and the integrity of the Commissioner and the League are now on the line.

And now for the first time ever (am I wrong on that?) the Commissioner has been forced to step aside on the basis of a lack of impartiality. This is a huge, huge deal.

Sorry, but cobalt27 was in the locker room when all of the Saints(and only Saints) pledged thousands of dollars to try and motivate each other to break the necks of the opposition. He saw it. Not only that, he talks to Goodell on a regular basis, so he knows better than any stupid Saints fans that he acted with a pure heart and would never do anything that wasn't 100% grounded in moral superiority. Really, Saints fans are just embarrassing themselves at this point, because the obscene amount of evidence is overwhelming at this point. There is absolutely no way Rodger has said anything that can be contested in any way.This is the NFL. They don't care about money. Nobody in the NFL ever tries to hurt anybody. Ever. Except the Saints. Cobalt _27 isn't putting up with that ####, so put away the tin foil hats, and baseless conspiracy theories And just be glad they didn't indict you too for watching it.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Well, in today's news....

Judge Helen Berrigan issued an order in Vilma v. Goodell as follows (long): "In light of the CBA Appeal Panel’s Decision of September 7, 2012, that “pay for performance” discipline was within the exclusive jurisdiction of the Systems Arbitrator, anticipating that the forthcoming decision by Mr. Tagliabue may be subject to an expedited review as to its fundamental fairness, and assuming as undisputed the testimony by the New Orleans Saints players and coaches that only “legal hits” were used to intimidate and/or injure opposing players, the parties shall brief the following: 1. Does Articles 43 and 46 of the CBA exclude discipline by the Commissioner for “legal” contact? 2. Does the CBA give the players and coaches adequate notice as to what conduct could be sanctioned as “conduct detrimental?” In other words, is that portion of the CBA ambiguous, hence unenforceable? Counsel should discuss the significance, if any, of the separate provision for sanctions upon players for “unnecessary roughness or unsportsmanlike conduct on the playing field with respect to an opposing player” in Article 46, Section 1(b) from “[a]ll disputes involving a fine or suspension imposed upon a player for conduct on the playing field” and “conduct detrimental” in Section 1(a). Reference to relevant NFL rules defining “legal” and “illegal” contact is welcomed, as well as a discussion of

examples of “conduct detrimental” provided in the CBA and related documents."

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/k685q7Locally, this is being viewed as GOOD NEWS FOR THE SAINTS, reason being...

...the Judge is suggesting that "conduct detrimental" is too damned arbitrary, or (for you folks in Ville Plate) open to subjective discretion and personal prejudice and self-serving predetermined preferential outcomes...

...which is FUNNY because Commissioner Judge Prosecutor Executioner Goodell decided to hold appeal hearings on the day BEFORE the Saints-Falcons games, such that folks like Vilma and Smith and anyone else involved still with the Saints had to choose between travelling and preparing for a huge game or being available to personally assist their lawyers in defending themselves from the very same accusation, i.e. "conduct detrimental."

Basically: a federal judge has told the NFL to 'splain themselves.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Well, in today's news....

Judge Helen Berrigan issued an order in Vilma v. Goodell as follows (long): "In light of the CBA Appeal Panel’s Decision of September 7, 2012, that “pay for performance” discipline was within the exclusive jurisdiction of the Systems Arbitrator, anticipating that the forthcoming decision by Mr. Tagliabue may be subject to an expedited review as to its fundamental fairness, and assuming as undisputed the testimony by the New Orleans Saints players and coaches that only “legal hits” were used to intimidate and/or injure opposing players, the parties shall brief the following: 1. Does Articles 43 and 46 of the CBA exclude discipline by the Commissioner for “legal” contact? 2. Does the CBA give the players and coaches adequate notice as to what conduct could be sanctioned as “conduct detrimental?” In other words, is that portion of the CBA ambiguous, hence unenforceable? Counsel should discuss the significance, if any, of the separate provision for sanctions upon players for “unnecessary roughness or unsportsmanlike conduct on the playing field with respect to an opposing player” in Article 46, Section 1(b) from “[a]ll disputes involving a fine or suspension imposed upon a player for conduct on the playing field” and “conduct detrimental” in Section 1(a). Reference to relevant NFL rules defining “legal” and “illegal” contact is welcomed, as well as a discussion ofexamples of “conduct detrimental” provided in the CBA and related documents."

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/k685q7Locally, this is being viewed as GOOD NEWS FOR THE SAINTS, reason being......the Judge is suggesting that "conduct detrimental" is too damned arbitrary, or (for you folks in Ville Plate) open to subjective discretion and personal prejudice and self-serving predetermined preferential outcomes......which is FUNNY because Judge Prosecutor Executioner Goodell decided to hold appeal hearings on the day BEFORE the Saints-Falcons games, such that folks like Vilma and Smith and anyone else involved still with the Saints had to choose between travelling and preparing for a huge game or being available to personally assist their lawyers in defending themselves from the very same accusation, i.e. "conduct detrimental."Basically: a federal judge has told the NFL to 'splain themselves.

 

[Goldalene]

No one's been to prison over this, so it wasn't severe enough.

 

[Doug B]

Tagliabue weighs in:

https://twitter.com/gregaiello

https://twitter.com/gregaiello

‏@LarryHolder

Wow! NFL vacates all player discipline in #Saints bounty case via @gregaiello.

will update as it posts.

 

[Doug B]

Scott Fujita ‏@scottfujita99 @judybattista don't worry Judy, there's a big BUT coming

 

[Doug B]

Here's an actual news-site link, but details are apparently forthcoming: http://www.wwltv.com...-183022981.html

EDIT: Another link.

 

[Doug B]

Vilma's defamation suit expected to proceed -- he wants his name publicly cleared.

 

[Doug B]

Preliminary PFT article:

From the Twitter account of NFL spokesman Greg Aiello comes the league’s statement regarding the outcome of the bounty appeal hearing.

The players have won. We think.

“Tagliabue affirms factual findings of Commissioner Goodell concludes Hargrove, Smith, Vilma “engaged in conduct detrimental” and vacates all player discipline,” Aiello says, using “and” where perhaps “but” would have been the better choice.

Regardless, the suspensions imposed on Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma, Saints defensive end Will Smith, Browns linebacker Scott Fujita, and free-agent defensive end Anthony Hargrove have been overturned.

He also offers this quote from former Commissioner Paul Tagliabue, who issued the ruling: “Unlike Saints’ broad organizational misconduct, player appeals involve sharply focused issues of alleged individual player misconduct in several different aspects. My affirmation of Commissioner Goodell’s findings could certainly justify the issuance of fines. However, this entire case has been contaminated by the coaches and others in the Saints’ organization.”

In other words, Tagliabue had decided that the players should not be punished, even though he thinks they did something wrong.

The bolded is ridiculous ... the NFL needs to show the courage of its convictions. If you're 100% in the right, you go to court with confidence.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

What a complete unadulterated, sad, pathetic joke of a TRAVESTY this has been!

I have total respect for all the posters here who have backed Goodell in this, I do, you cannot know what you do not know and you have only heard what you have been told - but what you have been told has all been a sick lie.

Here is the truth:

- The Commissioner of the National Football League made a conscious decision to sacrifice a year of several men's careers, not just the players and coaches suspended, but every player on the team and the dollars and passions of the Saints fans and those who make a living off the Saints in ways great and small, ALL so that the League can have a trumped up exhibit in what they perceive to be the forthcoming concussion damages litigation.

The league - Goodell - decided he was willing to literally scapegoat others for his own selfish gain and protection.

He is killing this game and he must go. This has wrong and he has shamed and besmirched the league.

GOODELL MUST GO.

 

[Doug B]

What a complete unadulterated, sad, pathetic joke of a TRAVESTY this has been!

Don't say that yet -- Vilma's defamation case is still to come.The Saints can't get the 2012 season back, but Goodell can still fall from his perch.

EDIT:

Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer

Just spoke w/Vilma's lawyer, Peter Ginsberg. Told me, "Jonathan intends to continue to pursue the defamation lawsuit in order to reclaim ...

(Ginsberg cont): "... his reputation. We’re pleased that the unjust penalties have been overturned, but this is only one piece in ..."

(Ginsberg cont): "... remedying the situation for Jonathan.”