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Brandon Marshall On Side Kick Recovery (1 Viewer)
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
CalBear
Footballguy
Interseptopus
Footballguy
SOURCE:
http://www.nflgsis.com/gsis/documentation/stadiumguides/guide_for_statisticians.pdf
KICKOFF RETURNS
If a kickoff is caught by a receiving team player, the spot of his possession is the point at which the impetus of the kickoff ends and he is able to initiate forward progress. This includes the end zone area. For example, if a player catches the kickoff at the 1, runs back to the -2, then advances, the spot of possession is the 1. If a player catches the kickoff at the 1, but retreats to the -2 because the impetus of the kickoff requires him to do so, the spot of possession is the -2. (NOTE, “spot of possession” is defined differently here than in the playing rules.)
A kickoff return begins at the spot where a receiving team player first gains possession of the ball, and then attempts to advance the ball. If a player gains possession and then fumbles the ball, he is considered to have attempted to advance. If no receiving team player attempts to advance the ball (including the case where no receiving team player gains possession), the following rules apply:
(1) If the player who fields an onside kickoff does not attempt to advance the ball, no kickoff return is credited.
(2) If, prior to the receiving team gaining possession of the kickoff, the ball is muffed or touched by a receiver who is trying to gain possession, and the loose ball is recovered by a teammate who does not attempt to advance the ball, then the kickoff return (for 0 yards) begins and ends at the spot of the muff or touch. A fumble is also charged to the player who muffed or touched the ball. Note that if the teammate who recovers the loose ball does attempt to advance the ball, the kickoff return begins at the spot of his possession, and the first player is not charged with a fumble.
(3) If, prior to the receiving team gaining possession of the kickoff, the ball goes out of bounds or is recovered by the kicking team after touching (or having been touched by) a receiving team player, and the first such touching is more than 19 yards from the spot of the kick, the kickoff return (for 0 yards) begins and ends at the spot of the touch. A fumble is also charged to the player on the receiving team who touched (or was touched by) the ball if the ball was recovered by the kicking team. Do not charge a fumble if the ball goes out of bounds before any player gains possession.
(4) If the receiving team gains possession, and Rules 1 and 2 do not apply, the kickoff return begins at the spot where the ball is possessed by the last player on the receiving team to gain possession. (For example, if there is a series of backward passes between players who do not attempt to advance, the return begins at the spot where the last backward pass is received.)
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Note that a kickoff return is credited on any kickoff that is first touched by the receivers more than 19 yards from the spot of the kick.
EXCEPTION: If the receiving team never possesses the ball outside of its own end zone, and the play ends with a touchback, no kickoff return is credited.
The player who begins the kickoff return is the player who is in possession of the ball at the point that the kickoff return begins (as defined by the rules, above.) The kickoff return continues until the play ends, or a player loses possession of the ball unless he recovers his own fumble, or laterals to a teammate. (If a player recovers his own fumble, his yardage continues to accumulate as if the fumble had not occurred, although he is charged with a fumble and credited with a fumble recovery.) The kickoff, therefore, will be returned by a series of one or more runners. Each runner in the series will get kickoff return yardage (possibly 0), but only one of the players will get credited with the kickoff return.
If a runner receives the ball beyond the point where the kickoff return began, or a previous runner has done so, then his yardage is measured from the point at which he receives the ball.
If a runner receives the ball at, or behind, the point where the kickoff return began, and all previous runners have also received the ball at, or behind, this point, then his negative yardage begins at the point he receives the ball, but his positive yardage begins at the point that the kickoff return began. Yardage he gains up to the point where the kickoff return began is applied to reducing the yardage lost by previous runners in the series.
The kickoff return is credited to the first runner in the series who is credited with more than 9 yards. If there is no such player, the return is credited to the first runner in the series who is credited with the maximum yardage gained by any runner, if that number is positive. If there is no such player, the return is credited to the first runner in the series. (This implies that if no runner gains positive yardage, the return goes to the first runner in the series.)
Example I: Kickoff bounces off hands or leg of receiver on his own 20, and rolls out of bounds at 22 before any player from either team gains possession. Scoring: one kickoff return for no yards, since the first touching of the kickoff was more than 20 yards from the kickoff spot.
Example II: Kickoff receiver muffs ball at his own 12, and it rolls forward. He recovers at the 16, and returns to midfield. Scoring: a 34-yard kickoff return; the yardage is computed from the spot of possession, not the spot of first touching. No fumble is charged.
Example III: A player receives a kickoff on the 20, does not attempt to advance, but laterals to a teammate on the 15, who then advances to the 17. The first player is not credited with a kickoff return or yardage, but his teammate is credited with one return for 2 yards.
Example IV: A player receives the kickoff on the 20, does not attempt to advance, but laterals to a teammate on the 15. The teammate then retreats and is tackled on the 12. The first player is not credited with a return, but the teammate is credited with one return for MINUS 3 yards.
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Example V: A player receives the kickoff on the 20 and then runs laterally across the field and hands off to a teammate on the 18. The teammate returns to the 25 and is credited with one return for 7 yards.
Example VI: A player receives the kickoff on the 20, then advances to the 22 before lateralling to a teammate on the 15. The teammate is tackled on the 17. The first player is credited with one kickoff return for MINUS 3 yards and second player is not credited with a return or yardage.
Example VII: A player receives a kickoff on the 20, then advances to the 22 before handing off to a teammate. The teammate then runs to the 30. In this instance, the first player is credited with no return for 2 yards and the second player one return for 8 yards.
Example VIII: A player receives a kickoff on the 20, then advances to the 22 before handing off to a teammate, who then retreats and is tackled on the 19. The first player is credited with one kickoff return for 2 yards and the second player with no kickoff return with MINUS 3 yards
Example IX: A player receives a kickoff on the 20, does not attempt to advance, but laterals to a teammate on the 15, who then retreats (trying to advance the ball) and laterals to a teammate at the 10 who is tackled at the 12. The second player gets a return for -3 yards.
Example X: A player receives a kickoff on the 20, does not attempt to advance, but laterals to a teammate on the 22, who then retreats (trying to advance the ball) and laterals to a teammate at the 15 who is tackled at the 10. The second player gets a return for -7 yards. The third player gets -5 yards. (No player gained positive yardage, so the return goes to the first player in the series.)
Example XI: A player receives a kickoff on the 20, tries to advance the ball and then laterals to a teammate on the 15, who laterals to a teammate at the 10 who is tackled at the 18. The first player gets a -2 yard return. (Yards gained by the third player before the point where the kickoff return began is used to cancel yardage lost be the first two players.)
Example XII: A player receives a kickoff on the 20, tries to advance and then laterals to a teammate on the 15, who laterals to a teammate at the 10 who laterals to a teammate at the 25 who is tackled at the 32. The third player gets 5 kickoff return yards; the fourth player gets a 7 yard kickoff return.
Example XIII: Kickoff receiver muffs ball at his own 12, and it rolls forward. He recovers at the 16, but makes no attempt to advance, just covers up the ball. Scoring: a 0-yard kickoff return; the yardage is computed from the spot of possession, not the spot of first touching. No fumble is charged because the player recovered the ball himself and the ball rolled forward.
EXCEPTION: (This applies to punt returns as well) On the final play of a game, if the receiving team laterals the ball several (more than once) times in a last ditch effort to score, kick return statistics should be scored as follows:
1. If the play ends beyond the spot of the first possession, credit the player who gained the most positive yardage with the return and yards gained to the spot where the play ends. Exception: If a return man scores but does not have the majority return yards, credit the player with the majority
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return yards with a return and yards to the point where the scorer received the ball. The scorer gets his actual return yards but no return.
2. If the play ends behind the spot of the first possession, give the last player to handle the ball a return for no yards.
3. If there is a fumble on the play and loss of possession behind the first spot of possession, give the last player who touched the ball a return, a fumble, and no yards. If the fumble occurs beyond the first spot of possession, credit the last player who had possession with a fumble. Apply rule 1 above to determine who gets the return and yardage.
4. If there is a penalty on the play (i.e. illegal forward pass) and the penalty is behind the first spot of possession, give the last player who incurred the penalty a return for no yards. If the penalty occurs beyond the spot of the first possession, apply rule 1 to determine who gets the return and yardage.
For fumbles on kickoff returns, see Fumbles section, p. 33.
The general provisions for scoring a fair catch, which appear in the Punt Returns section, also apply to kickoff returns.
http://www.nflgsis.com/gsis/documentation/stadiumguides/guide_for_statisticians.pdf
KICKOFF RETURNS
If a kickoff is caught by a receiving team player, the spot of his possession is the point at which the impetus of the kickoff ends and he is able to initiate forward progress. This includes the end zone area. For example, if a player catches the kickoff at the 1, runs back to the -2, then advances, the spot of possession is the 1. If a player catches the kickoff at the 1, but retreats to the -2 because the impetus of the kickoff requires him to do so, the spot of possession is the -2. (NOTE, “spot of possession” is defined differently here than in the playing rules.)
A kickoff return begins at the spot where a receiving team player first gains possession of the ball, and then attempts to advance the ball. If a player gains possession and then fumbles the ball, he is considered to have attempted to advance. If no receiving team player attempts to advance the ball (including the case where no receiving team player gains possession), the following rules apply:
(1) If the player who fields an onside kickoff does not attempt to advance the ball, no kickoff return is credited.
(2) If, prior to the receiving team gaining possession of the kickoff, the ball is muffed or touched by a receiver who is trying to gain possession, and the loose ball is recovered by a teammate who does not attempt to advance the ball, then the kickoff return (for 0 yards) begins and ends at the spot of the muff or touch. A fumble is also charged to the player who muffed or touched the ball. Note that if the teammate who recovers the loose ball does attempt to advance the ball, the kickoff return begins at the spot of his possession, and the first player is not charged with a fumble.
(3) If, prior to the receiving team gaining possession of the kickoff, the ball goes out of bounds or is recovered by the kicking team after touching (or having been touched by) a receiving team player, and the first such touching is more than 19 yards from the spot of the kick, the kickoff return (for 0 yards) begins and ends at the spot of the touch. A fumble is also charged to the player on the receiving team who touched (or was touched by) the ball if the ball was recovered by the kicking team. Do not charge a fumble if the ball goes out of bounds before any player gains possession.
(4) If the receiving team gains possession, and Rules 1 and 2 do not apply, the kickoff return begins at the spot where the ball is possessed by the last player on the receiving team to gain possession. (For example, if there is a series of backward passes between players who do not attempt to advance, the return begins at the spot where the last backward pass is received.)
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Note that a kickoff return is credited on any kickoff that is first touched by the receivers more than 19 yards from the spot of the kick.
EXCEPTION: If the receiving team never possesses the ball outside of its own end zone, and the play ends with a touchback, no kickoff return is credited.
The player who begins the kickoff return is the player who is in possession of the ball at the point that the kickoff return begins (as defined by the rules, above.) The kickoff return continues until the play ends, or a player loses possession of the ball unless he recovers his own fumble, or laterals to a teammate. (If a player recovers his own fumble, his yardage continues to accumulate as if the fumble had not occurred, although he is charged with a fumble and credited with a fumble recovery.) The kickoff, therefore, will be returned by a series of one or more runners. Each runner in the series will get kickoff return yardage (possibly 0), but only one of the players will get credited with the kickoff return.
If a runner receives the ball beyond the point where the kickoff return began, or a previous runner has done so, then his yardage is measured from the point at which he receives the ball.
If a runner receives the ball at, or behind, the point where the kickoff return began, and all previous runners have also received the ball at, or behind, this point, then his negative yardage begins at the point he receives the ball, but his positive yardage begins at the point that the kickoff return began. Yardage he gains up to the point where the kickoff return began is applied to reducing the yardage lost by previous runners in the series.
The kickoff return is credited to the first runner in the series who is credited with more than 9 yards. If there is no such player, the return is credited to the first runner in the series who is credited with the maximum yardage gained by any runner, if that number is positive. If there is no such player, the return is credited to the first runner in the series. (This implies that if no runner gains positive yardage, the return goes to the first runner in the series.)
Example I: Kickoff bounces off hands or leg of receiver on his own 20, and rolls out of bounds at 22 before any player from either team gains possession. Scoring: one kickoff return for no yards, since the first touching of the kickoff was more than 20 yards from the kickoff spot.
Example II: Kickoff receiver muffs ball at his own 12, and it rolls forward. He recovers at the 16, and returns to midfield. Scoring: a 34-yard kickoff return; the yardage is computed from the spot of possession, not the spot of first touching. No fumble is charged.
Example III: A player receives a kickoff on the 20, does not attempt to advance, but laterals to a teammate on the 15, who then advances to the 17. The first player is not credited with a kickoff return or yardage, but his teammate is credited with one return for 2 yards.
Example IV: A player receives the kickoff on the 20, does not attempt to advance, but laterals to a teammate on the 15. The teammate then retreats and is tackled on the 12. The first player is not credited with a return, but the teammate is credited with one return for MINUS 3 yards.
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Example V: A player receives the kickoff on the 20 and then runs laterally across the field and hands off to a teammate on the 18. The teammate returns to the 25 and is credited with one return for 7 yards.
Example VI: A player receives the kickoff on the 20, then advances to the 22 before lateralling to a teammate on the 15. The teammate is tackled on the 17. The first player is credited with one kickoff return for MINUS 3 yards and second player is not credited with a return or yardage.
Example VII: A player receives a kickoff on the 20, then advances to the 22 before handing off to a teammate. The teammate then runs to the 30. In this instance, the first player is credited with no return for 2 yards and the second player one return for 8 yards.
Example VIII: A player receives a kickoff on the 20, then advances to the 22 before handing off to a teammate, who then retreats and is tackled on the 19. The first player is credited with one kickoff return for 2 yards and the second player with no kickoff return with MINUS 3 yards
Example IX: A player receives a kickoff on the 20, does not attempt to advance, but laterals to a teammate on the 15, who then retreats (trying to advance the ball) and laterals to a teammate at the 10 who is tackled at the 12. The second player gets a return for -3 yards.
Example X: A player receives a kickoff on the 20, does not attempt to advance, but laterals to a teammate on the 22, who then retreats (trying to advance the ball) and laterals to a teammate at the 15 who is tackled at the 10. The second player gets a return for -7 yards. The third player gets -5 yards. (No player gained positive yardage, so the return goes to the first player in the series.)
Example XI: A player receives a kickoff on the 20, tries to advance the ball and then laterals to a teammate on the 15, who laterals to a teammate at the 10 who is tackled at the 18. The first player gets a -2 yard return. (Yards gained by the third player before the point where the kickoff return began is used to cancel yardage lost be the first two players.)
Example XII: A player receives a kickoff on the 20, tries to advance and then laterals to a teammate on the 15, who laterals to a teammate at the 10 who laterals to a teammate at the 25 who is tackled at the 32. The third player gets 5 kickoff return yards; the fourth player gets a 7 yard kickoff return.
Example XIII: Kickoff receiver muffs ball at his own 12, and it rolls forward. He recovers at the 16, but makes no attempt to advance, just covers up the ball. Scoring: a 0-yard kickoff return; the yardage is computed from the spot of possession, not the spot of first touching. No fumble is charged because the player recovered the ball himself and the ball rolled forward.
EXCEPTION: (This applies to punt returns as well) On the final play of a game, if the receiving team laterals the ball several (more than once) times in a last ditch effort to score, kick return statistics should be scored as follows:
1. If the play ends beyond the spot of the first possession, credit the player who gained the most positive yardage with the return and yards gained to the spot where the play ends. Exception: If a return man scores but does not have the majority return yards, credit the player with the majority
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return yards with a return and yards to the point where the scorer received the ball. The scorer gets his actual return yards but no return.
2. If the play ends behind the spot of the first possession, give the last player to handle the ball a return for no yards.
3. If there is a fumble on the play and loss of possession behind the first spot of possession, give the last player who touched the ball a return, a fumble, and no yards. If the fumble occurs beyond the first spot of possession, credit the last player who had possession with a fumble. Apply rule 1 above to determine who gets the return and yardage.
4. If there is a penalty on the play (i.e. illegal forward pass) and the penalty is behind the first spot of possession, give the last player who incurred the penalty a return for no yards. If the penalty occurs beyond the spot of the first possession, apply rule 1 to determine who gets the return and yardage.
For fumbles on kickoff returns, see Fumbles section, p. 33.
The general provisions for scoring a fair catch, which appear in the Punt Returns section, also apply to kickoff returns.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Who is his side kick and what was wrong with them?
Not if its a possession but to me kickoff implies you already have possession that's why it's a live ball. So when you recover a onside kick when do you get credit for a fumble? If the returning team touches the ball?
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3) If, prior to the receiving team gaining possession of the kickoff, the ball goes out of bounds or is recovered by the kicking team after touching (or having been touched by) a receiving team player, and the first such touching is more than 19 yards from the spot of the kick, the kickoff return (for 0 yards) begins and ends at the spot of the touch. A fumble is also charged to the player on the receiving team who touched (or was touched by) the ball if the ball was recovered by the kicking team. Do not charge a fumble if the ball goes out of bounds before any player gains possession.
Sounds like it
CalBear
Footballguy
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Yea sounds like if it's within 19yards it's not a fumble but if it is 2 or more it's a fumble
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Yeah. Thanks. A kick is not a fumble.
It seems that the rule reads that a fumble is charged to the receiving team if:
They gain possession and then subsequently lose possession on the return
If a kick is recovered 20 yds or more beyond the point where to ball was kicked from, or
If a player on the receiving team touches the ball prior to the recovery.
I didn't see the play. Does the last condition apply in this case?
Absolutely ... I hope your right that it is either of those conditions
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2015102503/2015/REG7/jets@patriots#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A0ap3000000565233&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Yes, the highlight video shows it touching a NE player and Marshall recovering. Per statistician guidelines, that would qualify as a FUMBLE. The fantasy side of this is, Unless you're in a yahoo league that has individual defensive players, you won't get the fumble recovery stat. That will be given to the NYJ D/ST. Individual offensive players don't get those stats. Similarly, if Marshall played on FG/Punt defense and blocked a kick, you wouldn't get points for that for Marshall, only the defense would.
This was my complaint to the commish in my league... We get return yards, but you also get them on the D/ST,. So if I have Pit and Antonio Brown, I double dip those points. His response was lowering the return yards slightly. Whatever, I'll just play within this scoring gimmick!
Imo the stat correction will be given to the NYJ D/ST, who currently in yahoo does not have a fumble recovery in their stat line
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LittlePhatty
Footballguy
Was the NE player credited with a fumble? To fumble the ball you need to have posession of it. Maybe it's considered a muff?http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/fumble
If there is a loose ball, and 5 different people touch it before the 6th player actually holds on and retains posession, the other 5 guys didn't fumble, they muffed. A kickoff isn't exactly a "loose ball", but it seems like the same definition should apply.
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
Maybe. I'm basing my opinion off of what I posted above...3) If, prior to the receiving team gaining possession of the kickoff, the ball goes out of bounds or is recovered by the kicking team after touching (or having been touched by) a receiving team player, and the first such touching is more than 19 yards from the spot of the kick, the kickoff return (for 0 yards) begins and ends at the spot of the touch. A fumble is also charged to the player on the receiving team who touched (or was touched by) the ball if the ball was recovered by the kicking team. Do not charge a fumble if the ball goes out of bounds before any player gains possession.
However... That seems like the ball has to go 20 yards to qualify as a fumble. It did not
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Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Squintz82
Footballguy
For what it's worth, this exact scenario happened back in 2013 with Marshall on the Bears. I missed the playoffs by 0.15 points and hoped all week that Marshall would get some sort of scoring for receiving an onside kick. It didn't happen.
Chicago Bears at 00:06
5-D.Bailey kicks onside 24 yards from DAL 35 to CHI 41, fair catch by 15-B.Marshall.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013120900/2013/REG14/cowboys@bears#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A0ap2000000296376&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay
Chicago Bears at 00:06
5-D.Bailey kicks onside 24 yards from DAL 35 to CHI 41, fair catch by 15-B.Marshall.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013120900/2013/REG14/cowboys@bears#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A0ap2000000296376&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
bostonfred
Footballguy
Yeah there are no simple rules. A fumble that goes out of bounds goes to the team that last possessed it at the current spot, unless it goes out of the back of the end zone, then it goes to the defense, and they get an extra 20 yards from the current spot, but only if the ball travels more than 10 yards from the fumblers hand out the back of the end zone, which usually means it was deliberately poked hard by the defender, which is fine, as long as they don't poke it again, or else the ball goes back to the offense, but if they deliberately try to recover the ball and knock it out, then the offense gets the ball back at the one, but if they accidently knock it out, they get it at the 20, as opposed to when they actually recover it in the end zone, when they, well, get it at the 20, and really as long as their intent cannot be ascertained, it goes back to the defense and they get twenty bonus yards.
Because the most important thing is that the defense not try to make a play on a live ball in the end zone. That's when we reward you the most.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Joe Summer
Footballguy
Players should be rewarded and penalized for every football move they make during the game, but as of yet the technology has not reached a point where that is possible.
VikingFrog
Footballguy
When you go up to a girl at a bar and say "Hey, I used to be a high school quarterback...want to act like my center?"
:dunno:
LittlePhatty
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Squintz82
Footballguy
DropKick
Footballguy
You know what he meant. why be so obtuse?CalBear said:
Technically, it isn't a fumble since the receiving team never had possession of the ball. I believe this qualifies as a "muff". Does the league or cognizant scoring system treat a muff like a fumble (as far as points go)? The more common case of a muff is a botched punt where the receiving player loses control of the ball without ever gaining possession.
ETA: If anyone gets credit, it may be the Jets defense/special teams and not Marshall individually.
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