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First point: The NFL is a competitive league. Very few teams have ever gone through a season without the opportunity for a 4th quarter comeback. Achieving them is not always a mixture of poor early play and late-game heroics.Second point: As most of your other posts in this thread share a common theme of dismissing Ben's accomplishments, I expected this was as well. If it's not, then my conclusion was wrong. I'm pretty confident I'm perceiving this one correctly, however.
It's not a question. Favre's first pass WAS completed to himself.
First point: Again, I don't see how this makes my point any less valid. A 4th quarter comeback is no better or worse than a blowout win. A win is a win is a win. If quarterback A's team controls the game from the start, and they win, and quarterback B's team needs a 4th quarter comeback to win, is one of those necessarily better or worse than the other? You may think so, but I do not. I've never believed that 4th quarter comebacks are particularly relevant in a discussion of how good a QB is. Maybe you do, but I will respectfully disagree.Second point: "Most of most of your other posts in this thread share a common theme of dismissing Ben's accomplishments..." Really? The red "X" I responded with when someone claimed that Big Ben was on the fastest road to the HOF after 2 seasons than any other QB ever? That's "most of my other posts?" And respectfully disagreeing with that claim is "dismissing Ben's accomplishments?" Is that seriously what you think? I'll give you a chance to re-read this thread from the start and confirm that this is really what you think before I respond.
So it's your opinion that I didn't answer the question, not because I didn't wish to engage in a lengthly debate that I wasn't particularly interested in about who is the most HOF worthy QB after two seasons, but because I wanted to take a shot at Big Ben and dismiss his accomplishments? Is that your position here?By the way, the QB I had in mind when I put down that red X was, in fact, Kurt Warner (Incidentally, the guy who originally made that claim about Roethlisberger ended up conceding that Big Ben would be 3rd behind Marino and Warner, without even being provoked to do so. Was he taking a shot at Big Ben too?). I hope you will believe me when I say that Warner's 41 TD passes in his 2nd season had more to do with my opinion than my supposed desire to tear down Big Ben for no particular reason.But, like you said, you're pretty sure that you're perceiving this one correctly, so I'll be interested to see what your take is from here.
So all of this would have been avoided if you had just said Kurt Warner, who of course was still stocking shelves and playing for the Barnstormers or an equivalent when he was 23 years old.Warner's first two seasons clearly outshine Ben's first two statistically, but wasn't he also the product of a system and surrounding talent? The passage of five years has shown that pretty clearly by my estimation, which might also happen to Ben.
No, apparently, all of this could not have been avoided if I'd just said Kurt Warner, since you apparently now feel the need to make the case for Roethlisberger over Warner. I wasn't interested in this rather silly debate (no offense, Chase) last night, and I'm not interested in it now. Big Ben is two years into his career. Two years! He has had a very, very impressive first two years, but I'm simply not interested in discussing his HOF potential at this point. I have an opinion, yes; but I'm just not interested in debating it.
Great summary. I clearly see your side now, and it's not "dismissing" Ben's accomplishments. Thanks.
You just wanted to force me into praising Roethlisberger, didn't you?Great summary. I clearly see your side now, and it's not "dismissing" Ben's accomplishments. Thanks.
The ironic part of this exchange is that despite being a Steeler fan, I'm not as high on Roethlisberger as most of theYou just wanted to force me into praising Roethlisberger, didn't you?
crowd. I think he's got a huge ego and is overpublicized by the media both in Pittsburgh and nationally. However, I cannot ignore what he has accomplished already in his career, specifically in the three AFC playoff games last year. The simplest way to put it is that he consistently makes plays that win games. Still, we're many years away from seriously mentioning HoF with respect to Ben.
:crickets:
Fla\/\/ed said:
I'm actually surprised it took so long for someone to ask who caught Favre's first completion.
I thought about it for 15 minutes or so last night.I am Shuked.
I gave it a stab.
You meant that all of these guys were on one team's roster at the same time, right? So your looking for both a team and a year in the answer.
San Francisco?
Not as far as I know.
As far as I know, JU was not on that team. Close, but no cigar.Doug B said:
Missed it by one year -- shoulda said 1958 Steelers. Forgot Bobby Lane was on the Steelers for a spell. HOFers Lane and Dawson, plus Earl Morral (QB of SB V champion Colts).
Looking at this two seasons later, you may well get the last laugh. Nice work.Of the top 100 QBs (in passing yards) through two seasons, only four of them have QB ratings above 90, and all four are above 98. There's Kurt Warner, Dan Marino, Ben Roethlisberger, Daunte Culpepper....and then a big gap. Roethlisberger has the highest YPA of the group, and won a Super Bowl. I'd probably say the best ever start to a career belongs to Marino, with Warner next, and Roethlisberger third. So I'll revise it and say Roethlisberger has had the third best career of any QB after two seasons.That's still lofty, lofty company. He led the NFL in adjusted yards per attempt last year. And I can't think of any non-active QB that won a Super Bowl and isn't in the HOF, that Roethlisberger won't end up passing on the passing yards list.Agreed. All I can say is, he had better keep winning. Extraordinary numbers in the W-L column will be the only way he gets in, unless Cowher retires in short order. He simply won't put up the eye-popping stats in that offense which most HoF voters will look at.Of course, I could be selling WINNING way too short, but Dilfer and Brad Johnson ain't gettin' in either.I'm not opening that can of worms. I'm just going to say that I disagree with you, and move on.Name one.X(I've always wanted to do that...)Roethlisberger is on a faster HOF track than any QB outside of Dan Marino after two seasons.
Regardless, it's way too premature to even discuss Ben's chances.
It's way too early to say he's going to be a HOFer, but you'd be hard pressed to think of a better way to start your caree than Big Ben. He holds a ton of rookie records, and his efficiency ratings are through the roof. He's also only 24, five years younger than Warner was.
i was just coming here to post thisMissed it by one year -- shoulda said 1958 Steelers. Forgot Bobby Lane was on the Steelers for a spell. HOFers Lane and Dawson, plus Earl Morral (QB of SB V champion Colts).
I'm glad we didn't look at this a year ago.Looking at this two seasons later, you may well get the last laugh. Nice work.Of the top 100 QBs (in passing yards) through two seasons, only four of them have QB ratings above 90, and all four are above 98. There's Kurt Warner, Dan Marino, Ben Roethlisberger, Daunte Culpepper....and then a big gap. Roethlisberger has the highest YPA of the group, and won a Super Bowl. I'd probably say the best ever start to a career belongs to Marino, with Warner next, and Roethlisberger third. So I'll revise it and say Roethlisberger has had the third best career of any QB after two seasons.That's still lofty, lofty company. He led the NFL in adjusted yards per attempt last year. And I can't think of any non-active QB that won a Super Bowl and isn't in the HOF, that Roethlisberger won't end up passing on the passing yards list.Agreed. All I can say is, he had better keep winning. Extraordinary numbers in the W-L column will be the only way he gets in, unless Cowher retires in short order. He simply won't put up the eye-popping stats in that offense which most HoF voters will look at.Of course, I could be selling WINNING way too short, but Dilfer and Brad Johnson ain't gettin' in either.I'm not opening that can of worms. I'm just going to say that I disagree with you, and move on.Name one.X(I've always wanted to do that...)
Regardless, it's way too premature to even discuss Ben's chances.
It's way too early to say he's going to be a HOFer, but you'd be hard pressed to think of a better way to start your caree than Big Ben. He holds a ton of rookie records, and his efficiency ratings are through the roof. He's also only 24, five years younger than Warner was.
it was
