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Broncos Shop Lelie for Walker -- (1 Viewer)

kringkoolkong

Footballguy
The Denver Post reports according to an NFL source, Denver has offered WR Ashley Lelie to the Packers for WR Javon Walker, but Green Bay has been reluctant. Lelie - picked one spot ahead of Walker in the first round in 2002 - has asked for a trade, and his agents and the team have been shopping him. If Denver acquires Walker, it may lower its demands in return for Lelie. The team would like a second-round pick for Lelie. Teams that may be interested in Lelie include New England, Tampa Bay and Kansas City.

http://www.ffmastermind.com/quickbits.php

 

Wolfpacker

Footballguy
I hope this happens. Then I can offer Lelie to the Walker owner in my league and have something to back me up. "You see! It's a fair trade. Even NFL teams think they're equal!"

 

-OZ-

Footballguy
The Denver Post reports according to an NFL source, Denver has offered WR Ashley Lelie to the Packers for WR Javon Walker, but Green Bay has been reluctant.
Reluctant? More like laughing their ### off at the horrible offer.
 

Sabertooth

Footballguy
The Denver Post reports according to an NFL source, Denver has offered WR Ashley Lelie to the Packers for WR Javon Walker, but Green Bay has been reluctant. Lelie - picked one spot ahead of Walker in the first round in 2002 - has asked for a trade, and his agents and the team have been shopping him. If Denver acquires Walker, it may lower its demands in return for Lelie. The team would like a second-round pick for Lelie. Teams that may be interested in Lelie include New England, Tampa Bay and Kansas City.

http://www.ffmastermind.com/quickbits.php
:lmao: This is the type of pertinent info I expect!
 

Doggler

Footballguy
The Denver Post reports according to an NFL source, Denver has offered WR Ashley Lelie to the Packers for WR Javon Walker, but Green Bay has been reluctant.
Reluctant? More like laughing their ### off at the horrible offer.
Armchair GMing here, but I'd think that Walker + GB's 4th for Lelie + SF's 2nd would get it done, no?Lelie kinda screwed the Donkeys out of getting full value for him with his antics, much the same way Walker has. Nowhere else do I think the Pack could get (or improve) a pick plus an OK WR for just Walker.

 

-OZ-

Footballguy
The Denver Post reports according to an NFL source, Denver has offered WR Ashley Lelie to the Packers for WR Javon Walker, but Green Bay has been reluctant.
Reluctant? More like laughing their ### off at the horrible offer.
Armchair GMing here, but I'd think that Walker + GB's 4th for Lelie + SF's 2nd would get it done, no?Lelie kinda screwed the Donkeys out of getting full value for him with his antics, much the same way Walker has. Nowhere else do I think the Pack could get (or improve) a pick plus an OK WR for just Walker.
Yeah, that would probably work.
 

packersfan

Footballguy
The Denver Post reports according to an NFL source, Denver has offered WR Ashley Lelie to the Packers for WR Javon Walker, but Green Bay has been reluctant.
Reluctant? More like laughing their ### off at the horrible offer.
Armchair GMing here, but I'd think that Walker + GB's 4th for Lelie + SF's 2nd would get it done, no?
Take away the inclusion of a draft pick from the Packers and it's a done deal.
 

Doggler

Footballguy
The Denver Post reports according to an NFL source, Denver has offered WR Ashley Lelie to the Packers for WR Javon Walker, but Green Bay has been reluctant.
Reluctant? More like laughing their ### off at the horrible offer.
Armchair GMing here, but I'd think that Walker + GB's 4th for Lelie + SF's 2nd would get it done, no?
Take away the inclusion of a draft pick from the Packers and it's a done deal.
I *think* that may be a bit optimistic, as 2.02 or whatever is a pretty high pick...but we'll find out within 24 hours I geuss.
 

packersfan

Footballguy
The Denver Post reports according to an NFL source, Denver has offered WR Ashley Lelie to the Packers for WR Javon Walker, but Green Bay has been reluctant.
Reluctant? More like laughing their ### off at the horrible offer.
Armchair GMing here, but I'd think that Walker + GB's 4th for Lelie + SF's 2nd would get it done, no?
Take away the inclusion of a draft pick from the Packers and it's a done deal.
I *think* that may be a bit optimistic, as 2.02 or whatever is a pretty high pick...but we'll find out within 24 hours I geuss.
Lelie for Walker straight up is a joke. Walker would be the No. 1 WR in this draft if he entered it. He'd likely be a Top 15 pick. That alone makes him worth the high second and something else. In this case, the "something else" is Lelie, who the Broncos want to get rid of. Even taking into consideration the knee situation with Walker this is a fair trade IMO. And it works for both teams. I'm not a big fan of Lelie but he'd immediately become Green Bay's No. 2 WR because only Driver and maybe Gardner (maybe) are more talented. And the second gives Green Bay back-to-back picks in the second round and a chance to add more talent which they badly need. Walker gives the Broncos the heir apparent to Smith they've been trying to find for the past several seasons. It also enables them to spend their first-round pick on another position.
 

Doggler

Footballguy
The Denver Post reports according to an NFL source, Denver has offered WR Ashley Lelie to the Packers for WR Javon Walker, but Green Bay has been reluctant.
Reluctant? More like laughing their ### off at the horrible offer.
Armchair GMing here, but I'd think that Walker + GB's 4th for Lelie + SF's 2nd would get it done, no?
Take away the inclusion of a draft pick from the Packers and it's a done deal.
I *think* that may be a bit optimistic, as 2.02 or whatever is a pretty high pick...but we'll find out within 24 hours I geuss.
Lelie for Walker straight up is a joke. Walker would be the No. 1 WR in this draft if he entered it. He'd likely be a Top 15 pick. That alone makes him worth the high second and something else. In this case, the "something else" is Lelie, who the Broncos want to get rid of. Even taking into consideration the knee situation with Walker this is a fair trade IMO. And it works for both teams. I'm not a big fan of Lelie but he'd immediately become Green Bay's No. 2 WR because only Driver and maybe Gardner (maybe) are more talented. And the second gives Green Bay back-to-back picks in the second round and a chance to add more talent which they badly need. Walker gives the Broncos the heir apparent to Smith they've been trying to find for the past several seasons. It also enables them to spend their first-round pick on another position.
As a Pack fan I'd be all about it, but it really does seem that the ACL concern has really trashed Walkers value. Or, any potential suitors can hammer on that point to diminish Walkers value. I know I would.
 
You guys are quick to slam players if they don't perform accoarding to your fantasy expectations. Walker has had his fair share of problems, many of which are much more risky than Lelie's.

Walker

-Scored very poorly on his wonderlic

-Took him a while to pick up the GB offense

-Off season trouble maker the last two seasons

-Constantly complaining about his rookie contract.

-Sucess was in large part due to a Strong Armed QB with a Very Solid WR -playing accross from him

-Torn ACL, Could limit him for this year and possible future years.

Lelie

Playing for a Run first offense

Deep threat vertical WR, played for a team that rarely took shots down field.

No injury history

Walker had one great season and seemed to be a great talent. But things have changed. I would not be suprised if Lelie went to Green Bay and a had a very sucessful season there.

 

packersfan

Footballguy
You guys are quick to slam players if they don't perform accoarding to your fantasy expectations.
I've never been a Lelie owner and wasn't taking fantasy considerations into account with my comment about Lelie. The Broncos have certainly tired of Lelie otherwise they wouldn't be so interested in moving him. I think he's talented but he has not progressed (it could be argued he actually regressed last season). Perhaps a fresh start is what he needs but I think the concerns about Lelie are justified and extend far beyond his fantasy production or lack thereof.I do think your comments about Walker are right on the money, however. He's only had one standout season and there are no guarantees he'll be able to succeed away from Favre. Quite a few WRs have had great seasons with Favre and been dogs with anyone else.

 
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cstu

Footballguy
Ok, I'll be the one to defend Lelie I guess...

Here's are Lelie's and Walker's stats the past two years:

Lelie

2004 - 54 1084 20.1 72005 - 42 770 18.3 1Walker
Code:
2005 - 89   1382  15.5   12
In those years the Broncos were 16th and 25th in passing attempts while the Packers were 1st in pass attempts in 2004. Lelie caught 53.5% and 47.7% of the passes thrown to him but led the league in YPC both years while Walker caught 61.8% in 2004. The passes thrown to Lelie are generally not high percentage ones and he had Plummer throwing the ball not a great passer like Walker had in Favre. As far as Lelie's lack of TD's, I attribute that more to Denver's style of play than to Lelie. Denver would prefer to run the ball in than pass in it the redzone and with MA they had a great goal line back. I don't think Lelie's strength is being a redzone target but he could be used better in other situations. On top of that, he's only 26 (2 years younger than Walker) and not coming off a torn ACL.

I'm not to argue that Lelie is a better WR than Walker - he isn't - but the difference is much smaller than what people think. Had they switched places I think there's a good chance that Lelie would be considered the better WR now. That's pure speculation but it's not unimaginable. You can't discount the benefit that Walker has had playing with Favre or ignore the limitations put on Lelie by the Broncos offense.

 

cstu

Footballguy
You guys are quick to slam players if they don't perform accoarding to your fantasy expectations. Walker has had his fair share of problems, many of which are much more risky than Lelie's.

Walker

-Scored very poorly on his wonderlic

-Took him a while to pick up the GB offense

-Off season trouble maker the last two seasons

-Constantly complaining about his rookie contract.

-Sucess was in large part due to a Strong Armed QB with a Very Solid WR -playing accross from him

-Torn ACL, Could limit him for this year and possible future years.

Lelie

Playing for a Run first offense

Deep threat vertical WR, played for a team that rarely took shots down field.

No injury history

Walker had one great season and seemed to be a great talent. But things have changed. I would not be suprised if Lelie went to Green Bay and a had a very sucessful season there.
Finally, someone else who get it.
 

Bears_Man2

Footballguy
Ok, I'll be the one to defend Lelie I guess...

Here's are Lelie's and Walker's stats the past two years:

Lelie

2004 - 54 1084 20.1 72005 - 42 770 18.3 1Walker
Code:
2005 - 89   1382  15.5   12
In those years the Broncos were 16th and 25th in passing attempts while the Packers were 1st in pass attempts in 2004. Lelie caught 53.5% and 47.7% of the passes thrown to him but led the league in YPC both years while Walker caught 61.8% in 2004. The passes thrown to Lelie are generally not high percentage ones and he had Plummer throwing the ball not a great passer like Walker had in Favre. As far as Lelie's lack of TD's, I attribute that more to Denver's style of play than to Lelie. Denver would prefer to run the ball in than pass in it the redzone and with MA they had a great goal line back. I don't think Lelie's strength is being a redzone target but he could be used better in other situations. On top of that, he's only 26 (2 years younger than Walker) and not coming off a torn ACL.

I'm not to argue that Lelie is a better WR than Walker - he isn't - but the difference is much smaller than what people think. Had they switched places I think there's a good chance that Lelie would be considered the better WR now. That's pure speculation but it's not unimaginable. You can't discount the benefit that Walker has had playing with Favre or ignore the limitations put on Lelie by the Broncos offense.
Most of these people #####ing about Lelie are the same ones that were burned this past year. :yes: Walker is unquestionably a better WR than Lelie, but Ashley still can be a fine #2.

 

Doggler

Footballguy
Ok, I'll be the one to defend Lelie I guess...

Here's are Lelie's and Walker's stats the past two years:

Lelie

2004 - 54   1084  20.1    72005 - 42    770  18.3    1Walker
Code:
2005 - 89   1382  15.5   12
In those years the Broncos were 16th and 25th in passing attempts while the Packers were 1st in pass attempts in 2004.  Lelie caught 53.5% and 47.7% of the passes thrown to him but led the league in YPC both years while Walker caught 61.8% in 2004.  The passes thrown to Lelie are generally not high percentage ones and he had Plummer throwing the ball not a great passer like Walker had in Favre.  As far as Lelie's lack of TD's, I attribute that more to Denver's style of play than to Lelie.  Denver would prefer to run the ball in than pass in it the redzone and with MA they had a great goal line back.  I don't think Lelie's strength is being a redzone target but he could be used better in other situations.  On top of that, he's only 26 (2 years younger than Walker) and not coming off a torn ACL.

I'm not to argue that Lelie is a better WR than Walker - he isn't - but the difference is much smaller than what people think.  Had they switched places I think there's a good chance that Lelie would be considered the better WR now.  That's pure speculation but it's not unimaginable.  You can't discount the benefit that Walker has had playing with Favre or ignore the limitations put on Lelie by the Broncos offense.
Most of these people #####ing about Lelie are the same ones that were burned this past year. :yes: Walker is unquestionably a better WR than Lelie, but Ashley still can be a fine #2.
IMO the Packers with Lelie are better than the Packers with a disgruntled Walker.My only concern is whether this is the best we can get in return for him. i.e. would an unhappy Stallworth be better? I personally agree that Lelie could be utilized better in GB than he was in Denver, although he's still frustratingly inconsistent and drops too many balls that he shouldn't.

 
Here's the point. The Packers do not have to part with Walker right now. They can hold him and at worst get a couple of third round compensatory picks if he leaves or maybe sell him later on after a camp injury takes out Smith, or Owens, or Johnson or Ward.

The Broncos have a narrow window of opportunity. They are aging rapidly along the lines, Plummer is no spring chicken, and certainly Smith, Lynch, and Wilson are long in the tooth. They need to win now or retool. Now who are they going to get at #15 that can help them win now? Jackon? Not hardly. It would take them three years to get Jackson up to Walker's ability, and that assumes he is not one of the 3 out of 4 W.R.'s who come up giant busts. There is actually value to the Broncos even at #15.

Conterposed to the real value is Walker's disgruntled nature and a well rehabbed ACL. True 10 years ago ACL's were career threatening, and we still think of them that way, but recent history says otherwise. It's a good ploy to try to force Walker's value down but the reason he has generated so very many threads is that we all know damn well he is going to be back and extremely effective. The Broncos, and other similarly situated teams (Eagles, Pats maybe, K.C.) are in a game where they have to act before the Packers do. Those teams have a current window, the perception is that Green Bay does not.

 

Traders2001

Footballguy
Lelie value aint no more then a 4th or 5th round pick.

SO if Walker is worth a 2nd round pick then you need 3 or 4 Lelies to get Walker .

Aniway who would want Lelie he is worthless.

 
I must say, though I do not agree with the conclusion having seen every game Lelie and Walker have played, that cstu presented an interesting and well thought out argument. Absent having personally viewed both every play of their careers I would have been persuaded by the presentation. A very :goodposting: by cstu.

 

Traders2001

Footballguy
Ok, I'll be the one to defend Lelie I guess...

Here's are Lelie's and Walker's stats the past two years:

Lelie

2004 - 54   1084  20.1    72005 - 42    770  18.3    1Walker
Code:
2005 - 89   1382  15.5   12
In those years the Broncos were 16th and 25th in passing attempts while the Packers were 1st in pass attempts in 2004.  Lelie caught 53.5% and 47.7% of the passes thrown to him but led the league in YPC both years while Walker caught 61.8% in 2004.  The passes thrown to Lelie are generally not high percentage ones and he had Plummer throwing the ball not a great passer like Walker had in Favre.  As far as Lelie's lack of TD's, I attribute that more to Denver's style of play than to Lelie.  Denver would prefer to run the ball in than pass in it the redzone and with MA they had a great goal line back.  I don't think Lelie's strength is being a redzone target but he could be used better in other situations.  On top of that, he's only 26 (2 years younger than Walker) and not coming off a torn ACL.

I'm not to argue that Lelie is a better WR than Walker - he isn't - but the difference is much smaller than what people think.  Had they switched places I think there's a good chance that Lelie would be considered the better WR now.  That's pure speculation but it's not unimaginable.  You can't discount the benefit that Walker has had playing with Favre or ignore the limitations put on Lelie by the Broncos offense.
Most of these people #####ing about Lelie are the same ones that were burned this past year. :yes: Walker is unquestionably a better WR than Lelie, but Ashley still can be a fine #2.
Wow , you must smoke good stuff.Lelie has nt proven he can be a #3 yet so how do you see him as a good #2.

 

Bears_Man2

Footballguy
Ok, I'll be the one to defend Lelie I guess...

Here's are Lelie's and Walker's stats the past two years:

Lelie

2004 - 54 1084 20.1 72005 - 42 770 18.3 1Walker
Code:
2005 - 89   1382  15.5   12
In those years the Broncos were 16th and 25th in passing attempts while the Packers were 1st in pass attempts in 2004. Lelie caught 53.5% and 47.7% of the passes thrown to him but led the league in YPC both years while Walker caught 61.8% in 2004. The passes thrown to Lelie are generally not high percentage ones and he had Plummer throwing the ball not a great passer like Walker had in Favre. As far as Lelie's lack of TD's, I attribute that more to Denver's style of play than to Lelie. Denver would prefer to run the ball in than pass in it the redzone and with MA they had a great goal line back. I don't think Lelie's strength is being a redzone target but he could be used better in other situations. On top of that, he's only 26 (2 years younger than Walker) and not coming off a torn ACL.

I'm not to argue that Lelie is a better WR than Walker - he isn't - but the difference is much smaller than what people think. Had they switched places I think there's a good chance that Lelie would be considered the better WR now. That's pure speculation but it's not unimaginable. You can't discount the benefit that Walker has had playing with Favre or ignore the limitations put on Lelie by the Broncos offense.
Most of these people #####ing about Lelie are the same ones that were burned this past year. :yes: Walker is unquestionably a better WR than Lelie, but Ashley still can be a fine #2.
Wow , you must smoke good stuff.Lelie has nt proven he can be a #3 yet so how do you see him as a good #2.
:yawn: So the 1000 yards he had in 2004 as the 2 must not count then right? How many other #2 accomplished that?

Perhaps I do smoke....what's your excuse?

 

Doggler

Footballguy
Ok, I'll be the one to defend Lelie I guess...
Most of these people #####ing about Lelie are the same ones that were burned this past year. :yes: Walker is unquestionably a better WR than Lelie, but Ashley still can be a fine #2.
Wow , you must smoke good stuff.Lelie has nt proven he can be a #3 yet so how do you see him as a good #2.
This coming from the guy who thinks Wells is better than Lendale White.
 

DWidmar

Footballguy
Ok, I'll be the one to defend Lelie I guess...

Here's are Lelie's and Walker's stats the past two years:

Lelie

2004 - 54   1084  20.1    72005 - 42    770  18.3    1Walker
Code:
2005 - 89   1382  15.5   12
You can't discount the benefit that Walker has had playing with Favre or ignore the limitations put on Lelie by the Broncos offense.
Here is where I disagree. I do not think the Broncos offense is responsible for putting the limitations on Lelie. I think Lelie did that all by himself. For the past two years everybody was expecting him to beat out Rod Smith for the #1 WR there. He failed to beat him out. IMHO, if Walker was there then he would have been able to beat Smith out for the #1 WR role. Here is the stat line from Smith the last two years. He had 79 and 85 catches in the last two years. Walker had 89 as the #1 in Green Bay. Him and Smith were very close. So IMHO the offense did not hold him back, he held himself back. He was given every opportunity to become the #1 guy regardless of who was throwing to him. Year Team G GS No Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ FD

2004 Denver Broncos 16 16 79 1144 14.5 85 7 14 3 52

2005 Denver Broncos 16 16 85 1105 13.0 72 6 15 1 55

TOTAL 167 142 797 10877 13.6 85 65 139 21

 

Doggler

Footballguy
All this talk of "#1" and "#2" WRs gets me hot n bothered.

Lelie is and always has been primarily a deep threat. If you put Rod Smith and Lelie on a team that likes to chuck it, Lelie becomes the "#1", whereas a ball-control offense that only takes one or two stabs a game will provide a burner like Lelie with a lot less opportunities.

No, I'm not saying he's better than Smith. Smith has been an amazing model of consistency. However, their styles are extremely different.

 

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