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Brouhaha at the dentist this morning over xrays (1 Viewer)

Walking Boot said:
Why would you make a "cleaning only" appointment? What's the point of that? Paying someone else to brush your teeth for you?

No reason for a "cleaning only" without the "and check-up" added in.
I would imagine that the thinking is you are getting at least a decent surface checkup as well with the "cleaning only." The assumption being that the chances are pretty good that if there's a problem, the hygienist will be able to see it and recommend you have the consultation with the dentist.

To the OP and anyone else who would choose the "cleaning only" option: would you still pick it if they clearly stated that it was indeed cleaning only and the hygienist would not alert you to any potential issues he/she would notice during the cleaning?

 
Walking Boot said:
Why would you make a "cleaning only" appointment? What's the point of that? Paying someone else to brush your teeth for you?

No reason for a "cleaning only" without the "and check-up" added in.
I would imagine that the thinking is you are getting at least a decent surface checkup as well with the "cleaning only." The assumption being that the chances are pretty good that if there's a problem, the hygienist will be able to see it and recommend you have the consultation with the dentist.

To the OP and anyone else who would choose the "cleaning only" option: would you still pick it if they clearly stated that it was indeed cleaning only and the hygienist would not alert you to any potential issues he/she would notice during the cleaning?
Sure although that would never happen.

 
How much does the average dentist make? Serious question.
Look it up on glass door, the numbers are out there.What you don't see is the immense student debt and business debt. It's a high overhead business which is one reason chains are taking over, and that's a bad trend for you the patient

 
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I had an appointment for a cleaning this morning. When I showed up they made me fill out a two page medical form because I hadn't been in for a while. No problem. They take me back where we stop at the x-ray room. They tell me because it's been over a year I need to get 20 or so x-rays done to "make sure there are no viruses in the teeth and roots". I tell them my teeth feel fine, that I'm only there for a cleaning and that I'll begrudgingly do the minimum amount of x-rays but 20 or so isn't going to happen. I broke my elbow in April and have had a ton of x-rays this year already. The assistant goes out and talks to the dentist. She comes back and says the x-rays are a necessity. I ask if I can just have my scheduled cleaning done without getting x-rays today. She leaves again, comes back and says no. I shake my head, say thanks a lot and walk out.

Did I do anything wrong here? I made an appointment specifically for a cleaning, not a check-up, no x-rays. I've read that the effect of x-rays are cumulative over time and that the recommended amount of x-rays are "as few as possible". Shouldn't I have just been able to get my teeth cleaned without being forced to submit to 20 x-rays? I took time out of my day to go to the appointment, now I have to do it all over again at a new place. Can I use the steam coming out of my ears to clean my teeth?
They are really cracking down in the world of medical litigation on the issue of "standard of care" and it does not hold up in the court of law to allow a patient to select service that is below the standard of care.

Let's say for instance that you had an infection that you didn't know about. And let's say the really low odds type of thing happened that the infection got so bad you were sent to the hospital and spent several days in for an oral infection.

Now let's say you decided someone should be responsible for it. Well your attorney asks... have you been to the dentist recently? You say "yes" Well did they take the necessary x-rays? You say.. nope, I denied them. They say.. "hey, no problem.. it's ok as a patient you should not be allowed to choose something below the standard of care" And so you sue... and guess what... you'll win.

It doesn't even work if someone signs the paperwork saying they denied the x-rays. for my defense.

Regardless if your teeth "feel" fine there is still the chance out there for oral pathology in your bone, for dental decay to be lurking in between your teeth (that's what we look for in the bitewings), and infection.

We also look to "get rid of" patients who deny x-rays because the medic-legal risk is too high to treat them.

There's also no "cleaning only" package offered... I'd lose money on that. Without the built in price of at a minimum an exam... and some x-rays... there's no profit.. no one is going to do that.
I've looked but have been unable to find any citation of any successful litigation against a dentist for failing to perform radiographs as part of a preventative care visit (regardless of whether the patient waived them).

Are you certain of the validity of that legal argument?

Of course, if the patient comes in with an actual problem, for which x-rays would be part of the standard diagnostic process, well that is an entirely different issue.
I did a very quick search for legal opinions on the issue and there are a lot of cases where dentists testify as experts that complying with the legal standard of care requires at least some imaging for an initial visit, even where the patient has no complaints. The one opinion I clicked on involved a lawsuit by a woman who sued her dentist because he didn't do initial X-rays that would have caught a tumor. So I don't doubt Dentist (or the OP's dentist) at all when they say that they need to take X-rays to protect themselves legally.

 
How much does the average dentist make? Serious question.
Look it up on glass door, the numbers are out there.What you don't see is the immense student debt and business debt. It's a high overhead business which is one reason chains are taking over, and that's a bad trend for you the patient
In my limited experience in the industry, those chains are evil evil places.... Clear Choice is attempting to enforce protocols like sawing off a huge chunk of jaw bone instead of pulling teeth because it's easier.... when preserving healthy bone should be a restorative docs top priority. Scary stuff... .

 
X Rays are the worst. I have a super sensitive gag reflex (I'll even gag while brushing my teeth sometimes), so whenever the dentist does X rays and they shove those godawful cardboard things into the back of my mouth I reward him with a couple good dry heaves.
Find a dentist with a digital machine, rather than the old-fashioned films. The part that goes in the mouth is much more tolerable.

 
Walking Boot said:
Why would you make a "cleaning only" appointment? What's the point of that? Paying someone else to brush your teeth for you?

No reason for a "cleaning only" without the "and check-up" added in.
I would imagine that the thinking is you are getting at least a decent surface checkup as well with the "cleaning only." The assumption being that the chances are pretty good that if there's a problem, the hygienist will be able to see it and recommend you have the consultation with the dentist.

To the OP and anyone else who would choose the "cleaning only" option: would you still pick it if they clearly stated that it was indeed cleaning only and the hygienist would not alert you to any potential issues he/she would notice during the cleaning?
Sure although that would never happen.
Really? You expect a hygenist to perform a dental exam? You are nuts.

 
Walking Boot said:
Why would you make a "cleaning only" appointment? What's the point of that? Paying someone else to brush your teeth for you?

No reason for a "cleaning only" without the "and check-up" added in.
I would imagine that the thinking is you are getting at least a decent surface checkup as well with the "cleaning only." The assumption being that the chances are pretty good that if there's a problem, the hygienist will be able to see it and recommend you have the consultation with the dentist.

To the OP and anyone else who would choose the "cleaning only" option: would you still pick it if they clearly stated that it was indeed cleaning only and the hygienist would not alert you to any potential issues he/she would notice during the cleaning?
Sure although that would never happen.
Really? You expect a hygenist to perform a dental exam? You are nuts.
Huh? He said if they noticed any obvious issues. They've always pointed out stuff if they see it. Not a full exam.

 
How much does the average dentist make? Serious question.
Look it up on glass door, the numbers are out there.What you don't see is the immense student debt and business debt. It's a high overhead business which is one reason chains are taking over, and that's a bad trend for you the patient
says 135k? no way it is that low
the numbers ctsu posted seem pretty in line with everything i've seen the ADA and Dental Economics post.

remember that many dentists are small business owners... so the income is very variable by area, by hours chosen to work, by procedures they perform etc.

This isn't shift work, or hourly rate.

 
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Not only overhead and how many pts you have and procedures you do, but insurance payments as well. My aunt is a dentist in Iran. She studied here in the late 60s and went back to Iran to practice. She's rich over there. Not only is she a woman but she speaks english, which takes care of european pts nicely. And to boot, she doesn't take any insurance. It's cash only. She's always very busy and manages to travel around the world with her husband, a reknown architect over there. Their kids have been here for over 20 years. They would love to live here but laugh at the salaries dentist makes, and well architects too. So they are there until they can work no more before they pick up and move here.

Over there, doctors like my aunt are treated with respect like royals. Shopkeepers call you dr, you are bumped to the top of whatever list you are on. It's a totally different environment over there. Great place to live even now, if you are already there and established, if you are highly educated in a needed field. That's why we lived there. Dad got beyond his PhD in Civil and Structural Engineering and off we went. Lived quite a life. Came back here and felt demoted. lol

 
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My dog's breath is horrific, and dog dentistry costs a fortune. Do you think I could slip her some Xanax or something, buy the tools online and do the cleanings myself? We're talking a few of those hooks and little mirrors, the fancy spinbrush and fluoride paste, right? That can't be too expensive.

 
Kicked out a patient this morning because we hadn't seen them in 5 years, they were a huge jerk to my employees, and he demanded a cleaning only with no x-rays or examination.

Even dumber was that he had insurance and those services were going to cost him nothing.

Either way, I told him that I completely respect his wishes, but we just don't provide that type of service, which we consider below the standard of care.   I wished him the best of luck at finding an office that will provide that service for him.    (Which he may find, but 95% of offices aren't doing to do what he wants.. it just puts you at too high of a legal risk)

 
Kicked out a patient this morning because we hadn't seen them in 5 years, they were a huge jerk to my employees, and he demanded a cleaning only with no x-rays or examination.
Sounds like you did the right thing. What you describe is completely different than my situation though.

 
Sounds like you did the right thing. What you describe is completely different than my situation though.


I'm fully aware,  but when i kicked out someone over x-rays/exams, this was the first thread I thought of.

I already blessed your situation as you being in the right and the office being in the wrong.

 
Dentist said:
Kicked out a patient this morning because we hadn't seen them in 5 years, they were a huge jerk to my employees, and he demanded a cleaning only with no x-rays or examination.

Even dumber was that he had insurance and those services were going to cost him nothing.

Either way, I told him that I completely respect his wishes, but we just don't provide that type of service, which we consider below the standard of care.   I wished him the best of luck at finding an office that will provide that service for him.    (Which he may find, but 95% of offices aren't doing to do what he wants.. it just puts you at too high of a legal risk)
Would you categorize this as a brouhaha?

 
Dentist said:
I'm fully aware,  but when i kicked out someone over x-rays/exams, this was the first thread I thought of.

I already blessed your situation as you being in the right and the office being in the wrong.
amen

 
Would you categorize this as a brouhaha?
a noisy and overexcited reaction or response to something.. as defined?

No.    More of a polite way of delivering unfavorable news in a professional way.

A brouhaha might have been me telling him to GTFO, and him yelling about it on the way out and then giving me a 1 star yelp reivew

 
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@Dentist - at what age do you start referring kids to orthodontists?

 
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