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Bryce Brown anything to see here? (2 Viewers)

I like bb, and all that, but what makes dynasty guys think the bills won't simply draft their carlos hyde next year?

why is it assumed bb inherits the crown in '15?
exactly

If Spiller and FJax both walk, the cupboard behind Brown will be bare and they will draft a RB regardless
CJ only had something like 202 carries last year and only scored 2 combined TDs. F-Jax had 206 carries but scored a combined 10 TDs.

The argument for a rookie RB simply taking over the bulk of carries, um, well. I tend to look at past results to try and gauge reasonable projections for future rookie production.

If the Bills draft a rookie RB next year, just look at the rookie RB production from the last year.

Just like this year's draft in the 2013 draft their were no 1st round RBs taken. Their were 5 RBs taken in the 2nd round of the 2013 draft.

Giovani Bernard 170 carries 695 yards 5 rush TDs

Le'Veon Bell 244 carries 860 yards 8 rush TDs

Montee Ball 120 carries 559 yards 4 rush TDs

Eddie Lacy 284 carries 1,178 yards 11 rush TDs

Christine Michael 18 carries 79 yards 0 rush TDs

If the Bills let F-Jax walk in a cost cutting move that would leave 200 carries and his combined 10 TDs.

If they also cut CJ that is another 200 carries.

So even if they do draft a rookie RB and they get lucky and the guy is solid their would still be 200+ carries for BB.

Oh and of the other 18 RBs drafted in 2013 only one, Zac Stacy had over 200 carries so only 3 (Bell, Lacy, and Stacy) of the 23 rookie RBs taken in 2013 had over 200 rushing attempts,

I think the odds favor BB to land a large chunk of rush attempts even if the Bills cut F-Jax and/or CJ and wound up drafting one of the top rookie RBs in the 2015 draft.

 
* Brown signed a four year contract with PHI in 2012 (and must be very cheap as a seventh rounder),
so, if he's compared to barry sanders, adrian peterson, etc, why would a high volume run team like philly let him go?
So do you think that if the Bills wind up letting F-Jax and/or CJ Spiller go due to cost cutting concerns that they will draft a Barry Sanders or an Adrian Peterson?

You know both of those guys not only went in the 1st round they both were drafted in the top-ten picks.

Um, so the only possible way for the Bills to land a sure-fire Hall of Fame RB like Barry Sanders or Andrian Peterson would be to draft them in the top-ten picks.

I guess this is the time to remind you that the Bills not only traded away their 2015 1st round pick to move-up to draft WR Sammy Watkins, they also traded their 2015 4th round pick too which would leave them even a lower chance to land the sort of rookie RB to steal away the bulk of the carries from Bryce Brown in 2015 if the Bills cut either F-Jax or CJ Spiller in a cost cutting move.

The logic of making a cost cutting move is highly probable but having traded away two of their top-four 2015 draft picks makes it less-likely they would or could easily draft a rookie RB who would eat heavily into the carries that would become available.

The more I look into the trade that Buffalo made for Bryce Brown the more I like his chances to land a large bulk of 2015 carries.

 
* Brown signed a four year contract with PHI in 2012 (and must be very cheap as a seventh rounder),
so, if he's compared to barry sanders, adrian peterson, etc, why would a high volume run team like philly let him go?
The Sanders and Peterson comments were of the best since variety (not necessarily as good), and date back to high school. That was noted to convey a sense of the esteem with which scouts held him in at that time.

EBF already addressed this upthread, that Chip Kelly may be very particular in the kind of players he chooses to build around (see DeSean Jackson). He didn't draft him, Brown was picked by Reid in his final season.

 
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I like bb, and all that, but what makes dynasty guys think the bills won't simply draft their carlos hyde next year?

why is it assumed bb inherits the crown in '15?
And what makes you think the Niners won't draft Gurley, the Rams won't draft Gordon, and the Titans won't draft Mike Davis? You can drag out that bogeyman for any unproven prospect. I don't think the Bills would've kicked out a 3rd-4th rounder if they didn't intend to give him a chance to earn a prominent role. If you think he's talented enough to shine with a good opportunity, you should have been hoping for a development like this, not looking for reasons to be paranoid about what might happen in the future. Nobody short of the established elite has job security in dynasty leagues and you're not going to get one of those guys at RB50 in your startup draft.

 
Oh, and maybe the fact that they acquired Brown AFTER missing out on Hyde should be a clue as well. If you want to buy a Mercedes, but the best you can get is an Audi, that doesn't mean you're going to buy a new car next week. It just means you'll be driving an Audi for a while.

 
Bracie Smathers said:
The point about the Bills interest in trading-up trying to grab RB Carlos Hyde has been glossed over.

The Bills tried to trade up in the second round to select Ohio State RB Carlos Hyde.

The Bills couldn't make a deal work before the 49ers took Hyde at No. 57 overall, so they settled for a Bryce Brown trade. Regardless, their dogged pursuit of running back help doesn't instill much long-term confidence in C.J. Spiller, who can opt out of his rookie contract after this season. They've likely settled on Spiller as a complementary piece, scrapping the notion of using him as a true feature back. Fred Jackson is 33 years old and in the final year of his deal as well.

Source: buffalobills.com May 14 - 10:01 AM
The Bills not being able to pull off that deal and then trading for Bryce is a significant point IMHO.It means they felt they had a need that they had to fill.

The point over the age of F-Jax and the contract status of both CJ and F-Jax has been mentioned but they both are locked-in for this year and F-Jax has a lengthy history of holding off challengers and he replied in a fiesty tweet to PHI RB LeSean McCoy's tweet about Bryce being the day-1 starter.

10 May

Lesean McCoy @CutonDime25

@BryceBrown_34 my boy it's been fun... Good luck with everything and knowing what they got and knowing what they getting lol starter day 1

Fred Jackson @Fred22JacksonFollow

No disrespect to @BryceBrown_34 but @CutonDime25 starter day 1 huh? I think @CJSPILLER and I might wanna bet something on that! #BillsMafia

2:12 PM - 10 May 2014

-------------------------------------------------------

I think that F-Jax and Spiller hold onto the bulk of the carries this year but then age of F-Jax and both of those contracts become a huge issue.

Of the nearly $13 million paid to the entire Bills RB position, F-Jax and CJ eat up over $9 million.

-Spiller makes over 400% more than the average NFL RB and is being paid a top-5 salary.

- Fred Jackson will be 35 years old next year and he's making over $3 million per year.

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/10769/counting-the-bills-running-backs

Total cap value: $12,988,332

Compared to NFL average: 53.7 percent more

NFL positional rank: 4th

Portion of Bills' total cap number: 9.4 percent

2014 cap numbers:

C.J. Spiller: $5.916 million (5th on Bills, 9th among NFL running backs)

Fred Jackson: $3.85 million (Bills: 9th; NFL: 16th)

Anthony Dixon: $1.016 million (Bills: 30th; NFL: 55th)

Bryce Brown: $570,000 (Bills: tied for 47th; NFL: tied for 102nd)

Average per year:

Spiller: $5.219 million (6th on Bills, 10th among NFL running backs)

Jackson: $4.35 million (Bills: 9th; NFL: 12th)

Dixon: $1.166 million (Bills: 27th; NFL: 45th)

Summers: $570,000 (Bills: 51st; NFL: tied for 120th)

Brown: $537,720 (Bills: 57th; NFL: 149th)

Most overpaid: Spiller. This is probably more of a commentary on the state of the running back position in the NFL more than it is on Spiller. Teams aren't giving running backs large contracts these days. Currently, Spiller's cap number is 416 percent higher than the NFL average at his position. Among Bills players, only Mario Williams has a larger gap from his positional average. This all sets the table for the Bills' upcoming negotiations with Spiller, who can become a free agent after this season. Are the Bills willing to pay Spiller top-five money for his position? Or can they get by with a rotation of younger players? I think the Bills would love to have Spiller's speed and big-play ability around for several more years, but he might still need to prove that he can be the lead horse in the backfield. He's not Adrian Peterson.

Most underpaid: None. This will likely be the final year that the Bills have this much cap space tied up in their running backs. At 33, Jackson isn't going to command the same deal that he received in 2012. Even though Jackson's production hasn't declined -- if anything, he's coming off one of his best seasons -- the Bills will need to consider the future with Jackson, not the past. Will he be worth $4 million a year or more as a 35-year old back? That's unlikely. If the Bills re-sign Spiller, there might be less willingness to bring back Jackson. I think the Bills would like Brown to develop into one of their lead backs, and if that happens, then he'll be underpaid. But for right now, there's no player worthy of that distinction.
Some could synically say that Bryce Brown was acquired as leverage for CJ and F-Jax contracts but the fact the Bills tried and failed to trade-up for Hyde and then made the deal for Bryce indicates this he is more than merely a negotiating chit.

CJ doesn't seem built to be a work horse but both Hyde and Brown look the part.

I agree that with both CJ and F-Jax in place and under contract for this year that Bryce is likely to make his mark next year but I really like his long-term dynasty value. That is how I would target him.

He looks set to either be the starter or challenge for significant playing time in 2015.
We still talking about the guy beat out by Chris Polk as a starter?

 
We still talking about the guy beat out by Chris Polk as a starter?
"Beat out."

Chris Polk

2012 - 0 carries

2013 - 11 carries

Bryce Brown

2012 - 115 carries

2013 - 75 carries

Over their two seasons on the roster...190 carries for Bryce. 11 carries for Polk.

 
Oh, and maybe the fact that they acquired Brown AFTER missing out on Hyde should be a clue as well. If you want to buy a Mercedes, but the best you can get is an Audi, that doesn't mean you're going to buy a new car next week. It just means you'll be driving an Audi for a while.
Note to self: EBF thinks Carlos Hyde is the Mercedes of the 2014 rookie RBs. :hophead:

 
Oh, and maybe the fact that they acquired Brown AFTER missing out on Hyde should be a clue as well. If you want to buy a Mercedes, but the best you can get is an Audi, that doesn't mean you're going to buy a new car next week. It just means you'll be driving an Audi for a while.
that really doesn't make any kind of sense at all, but I understand how people like to try to use metaphors --- was that a metaphor?

anyway, my point isn't to knock anybody's pet player, and I think the pick traded was somewhat a vote of confidence, but I wonder if the same people would be on the hype train if they had simply drafted a guy in the 4th this year, and that's being overly generous as a 4th this year would be worth much more than they traded.

I'm willing to go with a working assumption that f-jax and spiller are gone next year, but that means that other players will be added, as they won't roll into a season with 1 or 2 backs.

the question becomes do they use this guy as a stud and backfill around him with lesser luminaries in the draft and fa, or do they get the guy they really want in the 2nd and send brown back to his philly role?

I'm just looking for reasons why it's obviously the former rather than the latter

the word's out on this guy, so I'd assume the market's adjusted accordingly --- maybe some dynasty players can weigh in with some concrete values of players you'd be passing up for brown as a measure of his opportunity cost.

you just can't stash every player bloom wants you to on his podcasts.

 
Spiller is listed at 5'11", 200 lbs. He is 26, will be 28 by the start of the 2015 season, but has relatively low mileage (like Brown). He has played in 61 of 64 possible games (but listed as a starter in just 31). He only had a combined 181 carries in his first two seasons, but 207 in 2012 and 202 last year. His high in receptions was 43 in 2012, and he does have 14 fumbles since his 2010 rookie season.

Jackson is 6'1", 216 lbs. and turns 34 in 2015. In the last three 16 game seasons (pre-Spiller 2009, 2010 & 2013) he had 237, 222 and 226 carries, respectively. He missed six games in both 2011 and 2012, when he had 170 and 115 carries. He had a career high 47 receptions in 2013 (maybe his penultimate season in BUF).

Brown is about 6'0", 220 lbs., closer in size to Jackson and a decade younger at 23.

If BUF moves on from Jackson after 2014, given his age, Brown has comparable size to replace him and be the complement to Spiller (if they retain him).

BUF has some holes, so as with any other rebuilding team, if Brown looks good in his opportunities, that could lessen the urgency to spend a pick, or at least a high pick (for a RB) on the position.

 
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anyway, my point isn't to knock anybody's pet player, and I think the pick traded was somewhat a vote of confidence, but I wonder if the same people would be on the hype train if they had simply drafted a guy in the 4th this year, and that's being overly generous as a 4th this year would be worth much more than they traded.
I don't think saying someone is a clear buy at RB50 equates to being on the hype train or ignoring the risk. If people felt he was a lock to become the starter or at least take the F-Jax role then they'd be ranking him a lot higher, but that's not the case. His June ADP on DLF is 158th overall and RB51. You don't have to think someone is a slam dunk lock to believe he represents a good risk/reward proposition at that cost. Far from it. There is plenty of "maybe he won't pan out" risk factored into that price tag, so the observation that he isn't a total lock to inherit an unquestioned prominent role is of limited value to the discussion.

Putting that aside, the point of my post was to show how people are inconsistent in applying the "maybe his team will draft competition" bogey man card. For example, several posters in this thread have already implied that the Bills giving up a 3rd-4th round pick for Brown doesn't mean they won't just dip back into the RB pool next year to find their "real" heir to Spiller/Jackson. Yet I don't hear that same argument nearly as often against LeVeon Bell (RB7 ADP), Montee Ball (RB8 ADP), Bishop Sankey (RB15 ADP), Carlos Hyde (RB21 ADP), Tre Mason (RB29 ADP), Devonta Freeman (RB30), or Terrance West (RB32 ADP). Why is it that a 4th rounder like Freeman or a late 3rd rounder like West is taken twenty spots higher than Bryce and not as frequently branded with the "they'll draft a real replacement next year" label?

It's an interesting inconsistency and I'm not sure where it all comes from. Maybe it's the short-term uncertainty caused by the presence of Spiller and Jackson (seeing a high opportunity for Bryce requires a shred of imagination and foresight). Maybe it's the fact that he was a 7th round pick out of college or that Chip Kelly jettisoned him after an inconsistent sophomore season. Ultimately, the "why" of it isn't that important. Only the recognition that at this point in time you can get him for far less than his risk/reward outlook dictates.

 
I like bb, and all that, but what makes dynasty guys think the bills won't simply draft their carlos hyde next year?

why is it assumed bb inherits the crown in '15?
exactly

If Spiller and FJax both walk, the cupboard behind Brown will be bare and they will draft a RB regardless
CJ only had something like 202 carries last year and only scored 2 combined TDs. F-Jax had 206 carries but scored a combined 10 TDs.

The argument for a rookie RB simply taking over the bulk of carries, um, well. I tend to look at past results to try and gauge reasonable projections for future rookie production.

If the Bills draft a rookie RB next year, just look at the rookie RB production from the last year.

Just like this year's draft in the 2013 draft their were no 1st round RBs taken. Their were 5 RBs taken in the 2nd round of the 2013 draft.

Giovani Bernard 170 carries 695 yards 5 rush TDs

Le'Veon Bell 244 carries 860 yards 8 rush TDs

Montee Ball 120 carries 559 yards 4 rush TDs

Eddie Lacy 284 carries 1,178 yards 11 rush TDs

Christine Michael 18 carries 79 yards 0 rush TDs

If the Bills let F-Jax walk in a cost cutting move that would leave 200 carries and his combined 10 TDs.

If they also cut CJ that is another 200 carries.

So even if they do draft a rookie RB and they get lucky and the guy is solid their would still be 200+ carries for BB.

Oh and of the other 18 RBs drafted in 2013 only one, Zac Stacy had over 200 carries so only 3 (Bell, Lacy, and Stacy) of the 23 rookie RBs taken in 2013 had over 200 rushing attempts,

I think the odds favor BB to land a large chunk of rush attempts even if the Bills cut F-Jax and/or CJ and wound up drafting one of the top rookie RBs in the 2015 draft.
Your logic is squirrelly at best... CJ had a bad ankle and could easily go well above 200 carries. Of last year's rookies, why consider the carries of a 3rd RB like Michael? Or Ball, who also had more experienced backs in front of him? Or even Bernard, in a time share at 170 carries. Fact is a rookie could easily push 300 carries as Lacy and Bell would have if not for injury. And Stacy too - had he been the starter from day 1 - and sometimes rookies do get that nod.

And, of course, Brown's chances are better if the Bills release all the backs in front of him and don't bring in anybody...

Brown looked like a world beater in limited 2012 action. Great combination of size and speed... But what happened after that? I'm more concerned about the Eagles giving up on him then I am optimistic in the Bills' interest.

 
anyway, my point isn't to knock anybody's pet player, and I think the pick traded was somewhat a vote of confidence, but I wonder if the same people would be on the hype train if they had simply drafted a guy in the 4th this year, and that's being overly generous as a 4th this year would be worth much more than they traded.
Putting that aside, the point of my post was to show how people are inconsistent in applying the "maybe his team will draft competition" bogey man card. For example, several posters in this thread have already implied that the Bills giving up a 3rd-4th round pick for Brown doesn't mean they won't just dip back into the RB pool next year to find their "real" heir to Spiller/Jackson. Yet I don't hear that same argument nearly as often against LeVeon Bell (RB7 ADP), Montee Ball (RB8 ADP), Bishop Sankey (RB15 ADP), Carlos Hyde (RB21 ADP), Tre Mason (RB29 ADP), Devonta Freeman (RB30), or Terrance West (RB32 ADP). Why is it that a 4th rounder like Freeman or a late 3rd rounder like West is taken twenty spots higher than Bryce and not as frequently branded with the "they'll draft a real replacement next year" label?
this one isn't a metaphor, but once again I think you're confusing yourself with comparisons --- or confusing both of us.

the bills gave up.....and I never read the details --- but I guess a 2016 4th?

that's the equivalent of maybe a current 6th, or maybe 5th round pick.

I just suggested that guy might get bumped by a 2nd rounder next year, so you wonder why a bunch of other backs don't get bumped by second rounders next year ---- could it be 'cuz they were already drafted in the 2nd round?

what would be your logic for bumping 2nd round backs with another 2nd round back?

why would it confuse you that a bunch of highly drafted backs --- and the 2nd round is often the first flight for rb --- would have a higher adp than some guy taken in the 7th, or whatever, and later traded for a 2016 4th?

I would seriously like to have the logic explained to me.

how do you connect the dots between bryce brown getting demoted for a 2nd rounder and carlos hyde, montee ball, et al finding themselves in similar positions?

 
the bills gave up.....and I never read the details --- but I guess a 2016 4th?

that's the equivalent of maybe a current 6th, or maybe 5th round pick.

I just suggested that guy might get bumped by a 2nd rounder next year, so you wonder why a bunch of other backs don't get bumped by second rounders next year ---- could it be 'cuz they were already drafted in the 2nd round?

what would be your logic for bumping 2nd round backs with another 2nd round back?

why would it confuse you that a bunch of highly drafted backs --- and the 2nd round is often the first flight for rb --- would have a higher adp than some guy taken in the 7th, or whatever, and later traded for a 2016 4th?

I would seriously like to have the logic explained to me.

how do you connect the dots between bryce brown getting demoted for a 2nd rounder and carlos hyde, montee ball, et al finding themselves in similar positions?
Brown was drafted in the 7th round, but the price of acquisition for the Bills was a conditional 3rd-4th rounder. I don't personally put any stock in the idea that a pick is worth less in the future, so the idea that he was acquired for the equivalent of a 6th-7th round pick doesn't really work for me. He was bought for a 3rd or 4th rounder. Period. That puts his range somewhere between guys like Tre Mason (3rd round), Terrance West (3rd round), and Andre Williams (4th round).

That's a good starting point, but the prices teams pay for a veteran RB are different than the prices they pay for rookies. It may seem counter-intuitive, but typically a veteran RB will be cheaper than a rookie of similar talent level. I'm not sure what's driving that exactly, but basically it's rare to see a veteran back command a high price in a trade. For reference, here's a list of recent RB trades that I compiled earlier in the thread:

Recent RB trades:

Darren Sproles to Philadelphia for a 2014 5th round pick

Trent Richardson to Cleveland for a 2014 1st round pick

Chris Ivory to New York for a 2013 4th round pick (106nd overall)

LeGarrette Blount to New England for Jeff Demps and a 2013 7th round pick

Marshawn Lynch to Seattle for a 2011 4th and a conditional pick that became a 2012 5th

Thomas Jones and the 63rd pick in 2007 for the 37th pick

Thomas Jones was also traded earlier in his career for Marquise Walker, a 2002 third round pick who didn't play a game for the Bucs in his rookie season and didn't survive training camp with Arizona after they acquired him.

There aren't a lot of trades for backs, but when they do happen it's usually a cut-rate deal. Trent Richardson pulled a 1st rounder a year after being the #3 pick in his draft and Clinton Portis reaped a major haul way back in the day when the Skins got him, but in general you don't see teams paying over the odds for a veteran back. It looks like veteran RBs actually come at a discount. Maybe due to salary reasons or simply wearing out their welcome.

In the context of what a veteran back will usually pull in a trade, the Stevie Johnson pick (a conditional 3rd/4th) that the Bills spent on Bryce Brown represents a fairly significant investment. Not in the ballpark of what Richardson or Portis cost, but similar to what Ivory and Lynch cost. That isn't a flyer price. It indicates pretty strong intent. I'd say they must be pretty optimistic that they can get good value out of him to spend that.

Given that veterans tend to pull lower prices in trades than rookies of equivalent talent, I don't think it's a stretch to look at Brown and his conditional 3rd/4th price tag as being roughly on par with a late 2nd/3rd round rookie. Even if you take the most pessimistic stance and say it's no better than a 4th round rookie, that puts him on level pegging with guys like Andre Williams and Devonta Freeman who are going somewhat high in FF leagues. He arguably has a more prototypical FF skill set since he's a 220+ pound back with 4.4 speed and conceivably more upside left in the tank (he's still very young and he has almost no carries in his entire college and NFL career).

You can argue what the price tag means exactly, but the general interpretation seems pretty clear to me. This is a price tag that indicates a pretty high degree of optimism. It's roughly equal to what the Jets paid for Ivory and he was their leading rusher last year.
I think that post explains my perspective pretty well. A 3rd-4th round pick is a relatively high investment in any RB, but especially for a veteran back. To me, Brown is very similar as an overall proposition to guys like Hyde, Mason, B Pierce, West, A Williams, and Sankey. All of them are young RBs with compelling potential who were acquired for a relatively high price. Not a single one of them is such an obvious beast talent that he's going to be handed the keys to a starting job for the next five years. It's probably more realistic to say that the level of investment committed to each of these players ensures that they'll be given a good chance to prove themselves and earn a prominent role, but also that any one of them will be at risk of being replaced if he doesn't deliver.

Maybe then you can see why I find the Brown skepticism inconsistent relative to the optimism for players like Pierce, Sankey, Hyde, West, and Mason. None of these guys are guaranteed anything other than an audition, yet for whatever reason there is more pessimism with Brown and more of an assumption that he's just keeping the seat warm for somebody else. That's pretty terrible analysis. If you think Sankey, Hyde, and Mason are any more secure, just look at what happened to Ben Tate, Montario Hardesty, Isaiah Pead, Ronnie Hillman, Daniel Thomas, and countless other 2nd-3rd round picks whose presumed inside track on workhorse duties didn't last.

Add it all up and there's very little difference in my view between Brown and players with a similar acquisition price for their NFL teams such as Hyde, Hill, Mason, West, Freeman, and Williams. I'm higher on some of those guys than others, but from a generic standpoint all of them fit the general mold of "young RB with upside and a decent pedigree who will be a given a good chance to earn a prominent role with his team." Most of those other guys have a market price around RB25-RB35, so Brown at his ~RB50 price tag represents a great opportunity to get an equivalent commodity at a greatly discounted price.

 
Brown was drafted in the 7th round, but the price of acquisition for the Bills was a conditional 3rd-4th rounder. I don't personally put any stock in the idea that a pick is worth less in the future, so the idea that he was acquired for the equivalent of a 6th-7th round pick doesn't really work for me. He was bought for a 3rd or 4th rounder. Period. That puts his range somewhere between guys like Tre Mason (3rd round), Terrance West (3rd round), and Andre Williams (4th round).

That's a good starting point, but the prices teams pay for a veteran RB are different than the prices they pay for rookies. It may seem counter-intuitive, but typically a veteran RB will be cheaper than a rookie of similar talent level. I'm not sure what's driving that exactly, but basically it's rare to see a veteran back command a high price in a trade. For reference, here's a list of recent RB trades that I compiled earlier in the thread:

Recent RB trades:

Darren Sproles to Philadelphia for a 2014 5th round pick

Trent Richardson to Cleveland for a 2014 1st round pick

Chris Ivory to New York for a 2013 4th round pick (106nd overall)

LeGarrette Blount to New England for Jeff Demps and a 2013 7th round pick

Marshawn Lynch to Seattle for a 2011 4th and a conditional pick that became a 2012 5th

Thomas Jones and the 63rd pick in 2007 for the 37th pick

Thomas Jones was also traded earlier in his career for Marquise Walker, a 2002 third round pick who didn't play a game for the Bucs in his rookie season and didn't survive training camp with Arizona after they acquired him.

There aren't a lot of trades for backs, but when they do happen it's usually a cut-rate deal. Trent Richardson pulled a 1st rounder a year after being the #3 pick in his draft and Clinton Portis reaped a major haul way back in the day when the Skins got him, but in general you don't see teams paying over the odds for a veteran back. It looks like veteran RBs actually come at a discount. Maybe due to salary reasons or simply wearing out their welcome.

In the context of what a veteran back will usually pull in a trade, the Stevie Johnson pick (a conditional 3rd/4th) that the Bills spent on Bryce Brown represents a fairly significant investment. Not in the ballpark of what Richardson or Portis cost, but similar to what Ivory and Lynch cost. That isn't a flyer price. It indicates pretty strong intent. I'd say they must be pretty optimistic that they can get good value out of him to spend that.

Given that veterans tend to pull lower prices in trades than rookies of equivalent talent, I don't think it's a stretch to look at Brown and his conditional 3rd/4th price tag as being roughly on par with a late 2nd/3rd round rookie. Even if you take the most pessimistic stance and say it's no better than a 4th round rookie, that puts him on level pegging with guys like Andre Williams and Devonta Freeman who are going somewhat high in FF leagues. He arguably has a more prototypical FF skill set since he's a 220+ pound back with 4.4 speed and conceivably more upside left in the tank (he's still very young and he has almost no carries in his entire college and NFL career).

You can argue what the price tag means exactly, but the general interpretation seems pretty clear to me. This is a price tag that indicates a pretty high degree of optimism. It's roughly equal to what the Jets paid for Ivory and he was their leading rusher last year.
I think that post explains my perspective pretty well. A 3rd-4th round pick is a relatively high investment in any RB, but especially for a veteran back. To me, Brown is very similar as an overall proposition to guys like Hyde, Mason, B Pierce, West, A Williams, and Sankey. All of them are young RBs with compelling potential who were acquired for a relatively high price. Not a single one of them is such an obvious beast talent that he's going to be handed the keys to a starting job for the next five years. It's probably more realistic to say that the level of investment committed to each of these players ensures that they'll be given a good chance to prove themselves and earn a prominent role, but also that any one of them will be at risk of being replaced if he doesn't deliver.

Maybe then you can see why I find the Brown skepticism inconsistent relative to the optimism for players like Pierce, Sankey, Hyde, West, and Mason. None of these guys are guaranteed anything other than an audition, yet for whatever reason there is more pessimism with Brown and more of an assumption that he's just keeping the seat warm for somebody else. That's pretty terrible analysis. If you think Sankey, Hyde, and Mason are any more secure, just look at what happened to Ben Tate, Montario Hardesty, Isaiah Pead, Ronnie Hillman, Daniel Thomas, and countless other 2nd-3rd round picks whose presumed inside track on workhorse duties didn't last.

Add it all up and there's very little difference in my view between Brown and players with a similar acquisition price for their NFL teams such as Hyde, Hill, Mason, West, Freeman, and Williams. I'm higher on some of those guys than others, but from a generic standpoint all of them fit the general mold of "young RB with upside and a decent pedigree who will be a given a good chance to earn a prominent role with his team." Most of those other guys have a market price around RB25-RB35, so Brown at his ~RB50 price tag represents a great opportunity to get an equivalent commodity at a greatly discounted price.
you might not personally put any stock in the time value of picks but the entire nfl does.

these things only seem inconsistent when you equate brown to a 2nd round pick in your imagination.

the 'whatever reason' you seem to want to look past is that they are not, in fact, players with a similar acquisition price, regardless of whether you want to equate up with down to make some pretzel like point.

btw, where are the 14 page threads on tre mason and devwhatever freeman?

I am not claiming my crystal ball says he won't be the lead back next year, I'm looking for reasons that he might other than the omnipresent 'anything is possible - stash everybody', and I already acknowledged the pick traded as a vote of confidence.

 
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you might not personally put any stock in the time value of picks but the entire nfl does.
these things only seem inconsistent when you equate brown to a 2nd round pick in your imagination.

the 'whatever reason' you seem to want to look past is that they are not, in fact, players with a similar acquisition price, regardless of whether you want to equate up with down to make some pretzel like point.
Okay, remove the 2nd round picks from the discussion and it's still the same conversation. The Bills spent a 3rd-4th rounder on Brown. The same price spent on Mason, Pierce, West, and Freeman (all ranked around RB30). He arguably has a better opportunity than the first three since Spiller and Jackson are out of contract after this season (no Ben Tate, Ray Rice, or Zac Stacy here). #1 recruit in the nation in high school, 4.6 career YPC in the NFL with some flashes of brilliance, traded for a 3rd-4th round pick to a team with a wide open long-term RB situation. This stuff isn't rocket science. Talent + opportunity = $$$.

I think the case for Brown at his current market price is pretty obvious. Whether you see it or not isn't really my concern. I'm worried about the accuracy of my own assessments, not whether or not I can convince other people to agree with them. If you think he's the equivalent of a 6th-7th round rookie then by all means draft accordingly. It's immaterial to me.

 
I agree the trade for pick shows some significant perceived value. I think EBF is right that veteran RBs go for less than rookies with similar talent levels (and submit the reason is that untested rookies might be the next Shady McCoy or ADP, whereas veterans who have had a chance and not looked to be elite talents no longer hold that allure). I agree with Larry that a future 3-4 doesn't carry the same weight in transactions between teams as a current 3-4, I'd think here the value was more like a current 4 though, as the possibility it becomes a future 3 means it could be really valuable.

I don't think Larry is going to find any further assurances that Brown will become a dominant NFL RB. I think BUF's trade says they know Freddie is about done and Brown is the best replacement piece they could come up with (post-Hyde effort). He has shown great skills, but has also fumbled and cut everything to the outside where his size suggests he should be a successful pounder as well. I think the price says he will get a full and fair chance to replace FJax. I am guessing from what I see that they will mix Brown in this year behind the starters, let Fred go next year and hope to run with a mix of Brown and CJ, which split will depend on what they see from both guys this year. whether they replace Brown next year with a rookie will likely depend completely on how he performs from here (within the restrictions of other team needs with their few '15 picks). I don't think we get any further read than brown will get a fair chance and his role will be determined by his production.

But I agree with EBF that you don't typically get that potential value in a RB50. (Edit for horrible grammar.)

 
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ROYALWITCHEESE said:
We still talking about the guy beat out by Chris Polk as a starter?
Coaches never make mistakes is your take then?

Who beat out Priest Holmes and how could Baltimore let him walk knowing how good he was. I mean Ozzie Newsome can't spy talent or?

Why'd Terrell Davis make it to the sixth round?

How could Arian Foster not get drafted?

Why'd Indy make Faulk split carries his last year there and then how could they trade Marshall Faulk in his prime before he blew up HOF style with STL?

How could any RB ever get cut or let go in a cut cutting move or be traded if he had any talent?

I'm not keen on asking rhetorical questions that could paint you in a corner because it looks like coaches and personnel men haven't always make perfect decisions.

Bryce is one of the rare NFL RBs who have been traded for even a conditional 3rd round pick. He has undeniable talent

This may not be a zero-sum game where the Eagles or the Bills are going to be proven 100% correct but I highly value fantasy RBs who have talent + opportunity and I think many people are not seeing the opportunity that should/will open up in 2015 for Bryce Brown.

DropKick said:
Your logic is squirrelly at best... CJ had a bad ankle and could easily go well above 200 carries. Of last year's rookies, why consider the carries of a 3rd RB like Michael? Or Ball, who also had more experienced backs in front of him? Or even Bernard, in a time share at 170 carries. Fact is a rookie could easily push 300 carries as Lacy and Bell would have if not for injury. And Stacy too - had he been the starter from day 1 - and sometimes rookies do get that nod.

And, of course, Brown's chances are better if the Bills release all the backs in front of him and don't bring in anybody...

Brown looked like a world beater in limited 2012 action. Great combination of size and speed... But what happened after that? I'm more concerned about the Eagles giving up on him then I am optimistic in the Bills' interest.
I didn't cherry pick the guys drafted or the round or their oppotunities, they are what they are. Rookie RBs simply don't tear-it-up just because they were drafted in the 2ns round. And you can't blow off that CJ got injured because the guy only has 31 starts out of a possible 64. He's had injury concerns but he's one of the top-five highest paid NFL RBs. F-Jax has consistently gotten over 200 carries and he scores but he's old and highly paid to boot. Add CJ isn't a goal-line back and hasn't ever gotten much production catching the ball either so his ridiculously high salary becomes a major concern since he's in his contract year.

We all know the key with RBs is talent + oppotunity and that rookie RBs have to prove they can pick up the blitz because pass-pro has kept many rookie RBs off the field their first NFL season.

I'm not nearly as concerned with BB not getting opportunities in Philly because LeSean McCoy was the best NFL RB last year and other RBs behind him weren't getting oppotunities.

He landed in Chip's doghouse. Chip let DeSean Jackson walk without getting any compensation but he got a conditional 3rd for BB.

Catbird said:
I agree the trade for pick shows some significant perceived value. I think EBF is right that veteran RBs go for less than rookies with similar talent levels (and submit the reason is that untested rookies might be the next Shady McCoy or ADP, whereas veterans who have had a chance and not looked to be elite talents no longer hold that allure). I agree with Larry that a future 3-4 doesn't carry the same weight in transactions between teams as a current 3-4, I'd think here the value was more like a current 4 though, as the possibility it becomes a future 3 means it could be really valuable.

I don't think Larry is going to find any further assurances that Brown will become a dominant NFL RB. I think BUF's trade says they know Freddie is about done and Brown is the best replacement piece they could come up with (post-Hyde effort). He has shown great skills, but has also fumbled and cut everything to the outside where his size suggests he should be a successful pounder as well. I think the price says he will get a full and fair chance to replace FJax. I am guessing from what I see that they will mix Brown in this year behind the starters, let Fred go next year and hope to run with a mix of Brown and CJ, which split will depend on what they see from both guys this year. whether they replace Brown next year with a rookie will likely depend completely on how he performs from here (within the restrictions of other team needs with their few '15 picks). I don't think we get any further read than brown will get a fair chance and his role will be determined by his production.

But I agree with EBF that you don't typically get that potential value in a RB50. (Edit for horrible grammar.)
Sorry but I have to take exception this because its simply not true to say that EVERY TIME Bryce Brown touched the ball he bounced it outside.

EBF has made a great point on how rare it is for NFL RBs to be traded and how often teams have gotten incredible value/talent with little investment.

I think the Bills saw an opportunity to land an incrdible talent at a bargain.

 
Just offered him to the Kelvin Benjamin owner who put up the ubiquitous "send me offers" message on the board. I think that's pretty close in value. Couple of young, unknowns both with serious bust potential. Let's not forget that Brown is a character risk and there is a reason he was not drafted. In light of the Gordon and Blackmon fiasco's even if Brown "makes it" there is still risk of implosion. The worst thing that can happen is the Gordon deal where you vault him into your RB1 spot and he ends up failing miserably and you don't have a viable replacement player.

 
Sorry but I have to take exception this because its simply not true to say that EVERY TIME Bryce Brown touched the ball he bounced it outside.

EBF has made a great point on how rare it is for NFL RBs to be traded and how often teams have gotten incredible value/talent with little investment.

I think the Bills saw an opportunity to land an incrdible talent at a bargain.
I know saying "every time" is an exaggeration, but that's the knock on him in Philly. East-West runner with a fumbling problem. Polk was going to beat him out in '14 for the back up role as Kelly prefers his running style to Brown's.

 
I'm not trying to tear posters off anybody's shrine, but before we anoint him the next priest holmes and marshall faulk could we acknowledge that before he took advantage of back ups to the bears already historically bad run defense in garbage time during the week 15 54-11 blowout the guy had 188 yds on 64 carries through the first 14 weeks -- that's less than 3 ypc

when you remind us that coaches and player personnel make mistakes and use poor judgement were you referring to philly or buffalo?

 
I'm not trying to tear posters off anybody's shrine, but before we anoint him the next priest holmes and marshall faulk could we acknowledge that before he took advantage of back ups to the bears already historically bad run defense in garbage time during the week 15 54-11 blowout the guy had 188 yds on 64 carries through the first 14 weeks -- that's less than 3 ypc

when you remind us that coaches and player personnel make mistakes and use poor judgement were you referring to philly or buffalo?
Behind one of the best O-lines in the league.

 
Just offered him to the Kelvin Benjamin owner who put up the ubiquitous "send me offers" message on the board. I think that's pretty close in value. Couple of young, unknowns both with serious bust potential. Let's not forget that Brown is a character risk and there is a reason he was not drafted. In light of the Gordon and Blackmon fiasco's even if Brown "makes it" there is still risk of implosion. The worst thing that can happen is the Gordon deal where you vault him into your RB1 spot and he ends up failing miserably and you don't have a viable replacement player.
Brown was drafted in the seventh round (229th overall) of the 2012 NFL Draft by the Philadelphia Eagles.[38] He signed a four-year contract with the team on May 11, 2012.

 
btw, I don't know if this was posted earlier in the thread, but apparently the pick that buffalo traded is the one they got from the niners for stevie.

 
I'm not trying to tear posters off anybody's shrine, but before we anoint him the next priest holmes and marshall faulk could we acknowledge that before he took advantage of back ups to the bears already historically bad run defense in garbage time during the week 15 54-11 blowout the guy had 188 yds on 64 carries through the first 14 weeks -- that's less than 3 ypc

when you remind us that coaches and player personnel make mistakes and use poor judgement were you referring to philly or buffalo?
Hyperboyle is used to attack stances on players quite often so saying EVERY TIME or your religious metaphor of shrine and omniprescence to diminish anyone who sees the value in Bryce Brown.

Should I turn that aroud to say you :tebow: GENUFLECT at the feet of Chip Kelly's precient knowledge that DeSean Jackson will fail and that Bryce Brown won't succeed?

More hyperboyle to put a cherry on top. So you think that Philly is the one who got this trade 100% correct and that Buffalo had 0% correct and used 100% poor judgement? Again turning it around on you is too simple but instead of going down that road.

I said, its not a zero-sum-game where either side got it 100% correct but we do know the following:

- Bryce Brown got traded for a conditional 3rd round pick

- Few trades of NFL RBs have occured in the past decade but of those that have occured the teams who acquired a RB have won by a wide margin on the minimal investment considering the high return

- Both Bills RBs are highly paid and in the final year of their contrracts

- Their will likely be an opportunity open in the Bills backfield next year

Add, Buffalo traded two of their top four draft picks away leaving less opportunity for a rookie RB to drafted let alone take over as the lead back and if you feel they don't know RB talent then any rookie they draft wouldn't have talent. Obviously someone in Buffalo knows how to spy RB talent since they have two solid RBs and I think they know what they got in RB Bryce Brown.

I feel Bryce Browns has got the talent and Buffalo knows he does too.

Bills will have to cut the salary of at least one of their current top backs which opens up an opportunity.

In spite of the hyperboyle that Bryce only has flaws or no talent/etc. I see talent + opportunity next year or even sooner if injuries occur.

 
Interesting to read some of the comments on his running style (bouncing outside) given the analysis of Spiller not running through the correct hole at times last year.

 
I feel Bryce Browns has got the talent and Buffalo knows he does too.

Bills will have to cut the salary of at least one of their current top backs which opens up an opportunity.

In spite of the hyperboyle that Bryce only has flaws or no talent/etc. I see talent + opportunity next year or even sooner if injuries occur.
He has talent. He's just very raw and needs experience and coaching. His college career was almost non-existent. And he has to show that he's coachable. Obviously the Bills feel they can coach him.

 
Yes, Brown was a character concern and drafted in the 7th round. He has had some real bad lapses on the field with ball security issues, bouncing outside too much etc. There are some real big positives though. He was considered by many the consensus #1 HS RB in his class. He is still very young, and he got to learn from one of the very best in McCoy the last couple of years. He now gets to continue to learn from a highly touted RB in Spiller, and a Pro's pro in Fred Jackson. I thought Bryce was a buy last year and may have just been a year early on that call. I am looking to add him to all of my keeper/dynasty teams if the cost is not prohibitive. I think at worst, he is part of a two headed monster next year.

 
Add, Buffalo traded two of their top four draft picks away leaving less opportunity for a rookie RB to drafted let alone take over as the lead back and if you feel they don't know RB talent then any rookie they draft wouldn't have talent. Obviously someone in Buffalo knows how to spy RB talent since they have two solid RBs and I think they know what they got in RB Bryce Brown.
btw, you do realize this guy isn't the one doing the drafting, right?

 
Yes, Brown was a character concern and drafted in the 7th round. He has had some real bad lapses on the field with ball security issues, bouncing outside too much etc. There are some real big positives though. He was considered by many the consensus #1 HS RB in his class. He is still very young, and he got to learn from one of the very best in McCoy the last couple of years. He now gets to continue to learn from a highly touted RB in Spiller, and a Pro's pro in Fred Jackson. I thought Bryce was a buy last year and may have just been a year early on that call. I am looking to add him to all of my keeper/dynasty teams if the cost is not prohibitive. I think at worst, he is part of a two headed monster next year.
Same here after seeing his break out games in '12. But he regressed last year when given the opportunity. It was frustrating watching him bounce most runs to the outside when the play was designed to go inside. Needs to set up his blockers better. There was speculation he was on the block prior to the draft as Polk had gained Kelly's trust more than BB.

 
Just offered him to the Kelvin Benjamin owner who put up the ubiquitous "send me offers" message on the board. I think that's pretty close in value. Couple of young, unknowns both with serious bust potential. Let's not forget that Brown is a character risk and there is a reason he was not drafted. In light of the Gordon and Blackmon fiasco's even if Brown "makes it" there is still risk of implosion. The worst thing that can happen is the Gordon deal where you vault him into your RB1 spot and he ends up failing miserably and you don't have a viable replacement player.
Brown was drafted in the seventh round (229th overall) of the 2012 NFL Draft by the Philadelphia Eagles.[38] He signed a four-year contract with the team on May 11, 2012.
My mistake.

 
Add, Buffalo traded two of their top four draft picks away leaving less opportunity for a rookie RB to drafted let alone take over as the lead back and if you feel they don't know RB talent then any rookie they draft wouldn't have talent. Obviously someone in Buffalo knows how to spy RB talent since they have two solid RBs and I think they know what they got in RB Bryce Brown.
btw, you do realize this guy isn't the one doing the drafting, right?
Really?

Hershel Walker? Thirty years ago.

Shrines, omniprescence, poking holes in what exactly here Larry?

Let me help ya. Why go for low hanging fruit and attack the countless spelling/grmatical errors in my posts?

The point why I like Bryce Brown remains the same.

Talent + Opportunity.

I haven't seen a convincing case against either of those points.

I like Bryce Brown to make a splash in 2015.

 
Add, Buffalo traded two of their top four draft picks away leaving less opportunity for a rookie RB to drafted let alone take over as the lead back and if you feel they don't know RB talent then any rookie they draft wouldn't have talent. Obviously someone in Buffalo knows how to spy RB talent since they have two solid RBs and I think they know what they got in RB Bryce Brown.
btw, you do realize this guy isn't the one doing the drafting, right?
Really?

Let me help ya. Why go for low hanging fruit and attack the countless spelling/grmatical errors in my posts?
can you link one post I made attacking your spelling/grmatical errors?

 
Add, Buffalo traded two of their top four draft picks away leaving less opportunity for a rookie RB to drafted let alone take over as the lead back and if you feel they don't know RB talent then any rookie they draft wouldn't have talent. Obviously someone in Buffalo knows how to spy RB talent since they have two solid RBs and I think they know what they got in RB Bryce Brown.
btw, you do realize this guy isn't the one doing the drafting, right?
Really?

Let me help ya. Why go for low hanging fruit and attack the countless spelling/grmatical errors in my posts?
can you link one post I made attacking your spelling/grmatical errors?
You seemed content to throw things out there other than the two reasons why Bryce Brown looks like a good fantasy football RB for 2015.

 
I'm not trying to tear posters off anybody's shrine, but before we anoint him the next priest holmes and marshall faulk could we acknowledge that before he took advantage of back ups to the bears already historically bad run defense in garbage time during the week 15 54-11 blowout the guy had 188 yds on 64 carries through the first 14 weeks -- that's less than 3 ypc

when you remind us that coaches and player personnel make mistakes and use poor judgement were you referring to philly or buffalo?
Most of us are saying he's good value at his current RB4 / RB5 pricetag in startups. Or that he's probably worth a late 1st round rookie pick. That's pretty far from the "next Faulk / Holmes strawman you keep bringing up.

 
EBF said:
Brown was drafted in the 7th round, but the price of acquisition for the Bills was a conditional 3rd-4th rounder. I don't personally put any stock in the idea that a pick is worth less in the future, so the idea that he was acquired for the equivalent of a 6th-7th round pick doesn't really work for me. He was bought for a 3rd or 4th rounder. Period. That puts his range somewhere between guys like Tre Mason (3rd round), Terrance West (3rd round), and Andre Williams (4th round).
That's a good starting point, but the prices teams pay for a veteran RB are different than the prices they pay for rookies. It may seem counter-intuitive, but typically a veteran RB will be cheaper than a rookie of similar talent level. I'm not sure what's driving that exactly, but basically it's rare to see a veteran back command a high price in a trade. For reference, here's a list of recent RB trades that I compiled earlier in the thread:

Recent RB trades:

Darren Sproles to Philadelphia for a 2014 5th round pick

Trent Richardson to Cleveland for a 2014 1st round pick

Chris Ivory to New York for a 2013 4th round pick (106nd overall)

LeGarrette Blount to New England for Jeff Demps and a 2013 7th round pick

Marshawn Lynch to Seattle for a 2011 4th and a conditional pick that became a 2012 5th

Thomas Jones and the 63rd pick in 2007 for the 37th pick

Thomas Jones was also traded earlier in his career for Marquise Walker, a 2002 third round pick who didn't play a game for the Bucs in his rookie season and didn't survive training camp with Arizona after they acquired him.

There aren't a lot of trades for backs, but when they do happen it's usually a cut-rate deal. Trent Richardson pulled a 1st rounder a year after being the #3 pick in his draft and Clinton Portis reaped a major haul way back in the day when the Skins got him, but in general you don't see teams paying over the odds for a veteran back. It looks like veteran RBs actually come at a discount. Maybe due to salary reasons or simply wearing out their welcome.

In the context of what a veteran back will usually pull in a trade, the Stevie Johnson pick (a conditional 3rd/4th) that the Bills spent on Bryce Brown represents a fairly significant investment. Not in the ballpark of what Richardson or Portis cost, but similar to what Ivory and Lynch cost. That isn't a flyer price. It indicates pretty strong intent. I'd say they must be pretty optimistic that they can get good value out of him to spend that.

Given that veterans tend to pull lower prices in trades than rookies of equivalent talent, I don't think it's a stretch to look at Brown and his conditional 3rd/4th price tag as being roughly on par with a late 2nd/3rd round rookie. Even if you take the most pessimistic stance and say it's no better than a 4th round rookie, that puts him on level pegging with guys like Andre Williams and Devonta Freeman who are going somewhat high in FF leagues. He arguably has a more prototypical FF skill set since he's a 220+ pound back with 4.4 speed and conceivably more upside left in the tank (he's still very young and he has almost no carries in his entire college and NFL career).

You can argue what the price tag means exactly, but the general interpretation seems pretty clear to me. This is a price tag that indicates a pretty high degree of optimism. It's roughly equal to what the Jets paid for Ivory and he was their leading rusher last year.
I think that post explains my perspective pretty well. A 3rd-4th round pick is a relatively high investment in any RB, but especially for a veteran back. To me, Brown is very similar as an overall proposition to guys like Hyde, Mason, B Pierce, West, A Williams, and Sankey. All of them are young RBs with compelling potential who were acquired for a relatively high price. Not a single one of them is such an obvious beast talent that he's going to be handed the keys to a starting job for the next five years. It's probably more realistic to say that the level of investment committed to each of these players ensures that they'll be given a good chance to prove themselves and earn a prominent role, but also that any one of them will be at risk of being replaced if he doesn't deliver.

Maybe then you can see why I find the Brown skepticism inconsistent relative to the optimism for players like Pierce, Sankey, Hyde, West, and Mason. None of these guys are guaranteed anything other than an audition, yet for whatever reason there is more pessimism with Brown and more of an assumption that he's just keeping the seat warm for somebody else. That's pretty terrible analysis. If you think Sankey, Hyde, and Mason are any more secure, just look at what happened to Ben Tate, Montario Hardesty, Isaiah Pead, Ronnie Hillman, Daniel Thomas, and countless other 2nd-3rd round picks whose presumed inside track on workhorse duties didn't last.

Add it all up and there's very little difference in my view between Brown and players with a similar acquisition price for their NFL teams such as Hyde, Hill, Mason, West, Freeman, and Williams. I'm higher on some of those guys than others, but from a generic standpoint all of them fit the general mold of "young RB with upside and a decent pedigree who will be a given a good chance to earn a prominent role with his team." Most of those other guys have a market price around RB25-RB35, so Brown at his ~RB50 price tag represents a great opportunity to get an equivalent commodity at a greatly discounted price.
I like Brown and think he has a chance to stick in Buffalo, but the bolded is just silly.

The Bills gave up a likely late 4th round pick a year from now for him. The only way it becomes a 3rd is if both Stevie Johnson and Brown hit incentives, but even then the 3rd wouldn't be until 2016. I don't know what those incentives are, but they are usually pretty steep, so it seems extremely unlikely that they will both hit them. You may not put any stock in the idea that a pick is worth less in the future, but everyone in the NFL does.

There is plenty to like about Brown and his situation, but his acquisition price was no where near most of the guys you listed (not to mention that this was the Bills making the deal, who almost certainly overpaid for him).

 
EBF said:
Brown was drafted in the 7th round, but the price of acquisition for the Bills was a conditional 3rd-4th rounder. I don't personally put any stock in the idea that a pick is worth less in the future, so the idea that he was acquired for the equivalent of a 6th-7th round pick doesn't really work for me. He was bought for a 3rd or 4th rounder. Period. That puts his range somewhere between guys like Tre Mason (3rd round), Terrance West (3rd round), and Andre Williams (4th round).

That's a good starting point, but the prices teams pay for a veteran RB are different than the prices they pay for rookies. It may seem counter-intuitive, but typically a veteran RB will be cheaper than a rookie of similar talent level. I'm not sure what's driving that exactly, but basically it's rare to see a veteran back command a high price in a trade. For reference, here's a list of recent RB trades that I compiled earlier in the thread:

Recent RB trades:

Darren Sproles to Philadelphia for a 2014 5th round pick

Trent Richardson to Cleveland for a 2014 1st round pick

Chris Ivory to New York for a 2013 4th round pick (106nd overall)

LeGarrette Blount to New England for Jeff Demps and a 2013 7th round pick

Marshawn Lynch to Seattle for a 2011 4th and a conditional pick that became a 2012 5th

Thomas Jones and the 63rd pick in 2007 for the 37th pick

Thomas Jones was also traded earlier in his career for Marquise Walker, a 2002 third round pick who didn't play a game for the Bucs in his rookie season and didn't survive training camp with Arizona after they acquired him.

There aren't a lot of trades for backs, but when they do happen it's usually a cut-rate deal. Trent Richardson pulled a 1st rounder a year after being the #3 pick in his draft and Clinton Portis reaped a major haul way back in the day when the Skins got him, but in general you don't see teams paying over the odds for a veteran back. It looks like veteran RBs actually come at a discount. Maybe due to salary reasons or simply wearing out their welcome.

In the context of what a veteran back will usually pull in a trade, the Stevie Johnson pick (a conditional 3rd/4th) that the Bills spent on Bryce Brown represents a fairly significant investment. Not in the ballpark of what Richardson or Portis cost, but similar to what Ivory and Lynch cost. That isn't a flyer price. It indicates pretty strong intent. I'd say they must be pretty optimistic that they can get good value out of him to spend that.

Given that veterans tend to pull lower prices in trades than rookies of equivalent talent, I don't think it's a stretch to look at Brown and his conditional 3rd/4th price tag as being roughly on par with a late 2nd/3rd round rookie. Even if you take the most pessimistic stance and say it's no better than a 4th round rookie, that puts him on level pegging with guys like Andre Williams and Devonta Freeman who are going somewhat high in FF leagues. He arguably has a more prototypical FF skill set since he's a 220+ pound back with 4.4 speed and conceivably more upside left in the tank (he's still very young and he has almost no carries in his entire college and NFL career).

You can argue what the price tag means exactly, but the general interpretation seems pretty clear to me. This is a price tag that indicates a pretty high degree of optimism. It's roughly equal to what the Jets paid for Ivory and he was their leading rusher last year.
I think that post explains my perspective pretty well. A 3rd-4th round pick is a relatively high investment in any RB, but especially for a veteran back. To me, Brown is very similar as an overall proposition to guys like Hyde, Mason, B Pierce, West, A Williams, and Sankey. All of them are young RBs with compelling potential who were acquired for a relatively high price. Not a single one of them is such an obvious beast talent that he's going to be handed the keys to a starting job for the next five years. It's probably more realistic to say that the level of investment committed to each of these players ensures that they'll be given a good chance to prove themselves and earn a prominent role, but also that any one of them will be at risk of being replaced if he doesn't deliver.

Maybe then you can see why I find the Brown skepticism inconsistent relative to the optimism for players like Pierce, Sankey, Hyde, West, and Mason. None of these guys are guaranteed anything other than an audition, yet for whatever reason there is more pessimism with Brown and more of an assumption that he's just keeping the seat warm for somebody else. That's pretty terrible analysis. If you think Sankey, Hyde, and Mason are any more secure, just look at what happened to Ben Tate, Montario Hardesty, Isaiah Pead, Ronnie Hillman, Daniel Thomas, and countless other 2nd-3rd round picks whose presumed inside track on workhorse duties didn't last.

Add it all up and there's very little difference in my view between Brown and players with a similar acquisition price for their NFL teams such as Hyde, Hill, Mason, West, Freeman, and Williams. I'm higher on some of those guys than others, but from a generic standpoint all of them fit the general mold of "young RB with upside and a decent pedigree who will be a given a good chance to earn a prominent role with his team." Most of those other guys have a market price around RB25-RB35, so Brown at his ~RB50 price tag represents a great opportunity to get an equivalent commodity at a greatly discounted price.
I like Brown and think he has a chance to stick in Buffalo, but the bolded is just silly.The Bills gave up a likely late 4th round pick a year from now for him. The only way it becomes a 3rd is if both Stevie Johnson and Brown hit incentives, but even then the 3rd wouldn't be until 2016. I don't know what those incentives are, but they are usually pretty steep, so it seems extremely unlikely that they will both hit them. You may not put any stock in the idea that a pick is worth less in the future, but everyone in the NFL does.

There is plenty to like about Brown and his situation, but his acquisition price was no where near most of the guys you listed (not to mention that this was the Bills making the deal, who almost certainly overpaid for him).
Regardless of any nitpicking on the acquisition price, it's eminently reasonable to put a similar FF value on Bryce Brown as those players. Brown has already shown that he can play at the NFL level as a primary RB, albeit for a very short stretch. Rookie 3rd / 4th round RBs are more likely than not to just be total busts and never do anything relevant. Brown is in the same tier as an asset as this year's second tier rookie RBs.

 
Regardless of any nitpicking on the acquisition price, it's eminently reasonable to put a similar FF value on Bryce Brown as those players. Brown has already shown that he can play at the NFL level as a primary RB, albeit for a very short stretch. Rookie 3rd / 4th round RBs are more likely than not to just be total busts and never do anything relevant. Brown is in the same tier as an asset as this year's second tier rookie RBs.
I didn't say it wasn't reasonable, I just don't think it makes sense to use acquisition price as a pro-Brown argument when they aren't really similar.

 
All depends on your perspective. Brown was acquired for a 3rd-4th round pick. I've never personally bought the time discount theory, whether it's the NFL or FF. There is no inflation with draft picks. A 1st round pick is a 1st round pick. A 2nd round pick is a 2nd round pick. And so on. I would apply a very slight premium to earlier picks, but the idea that "a pick this year in round X is worth a pick next year in round X-1" has always seemed silly to me. If anyone in my leagues disagrees and wants to test that, I welcome them to offer me future picks for a one round discount. I will automatically accept any offer of that sort.

As far as Brown goes, both sides are choosing to see what they want to see. I can say he's the equivalent of a 3rd-4th round pick or maybe more because veteran RBs are usually somewhat cheap compared with rookies. Skeptics can say he's "really" a 5th-6th round pick because of the time delay on the picks and that the trade should be viewed through a skeptical lens because the Bills are inept. The facts are mostly indisputable, but the interpretation of them is up for debate. People who already thought Brown had good potential are making an optimistic reading of the facts. People who didn't are making a skeptical reading of the facts. Par for the course around here, as this is what it boils down to in almost every player debate on these boards (see: Michael, Richardson, etc).

From my experience, it's not worth the trouble trying to convince people that you've got it right because nobody ever changes their mind until they're forced to by the actual outcome itself. I'll just say that being right is more important than having other people think you're right. My personal take is that a comparison with the likes of Mason, West, Pierce, and Freeman is perfectly fair and maybe even slanted in Bryce's favor. Already laid out my case and don't have much more to add for the time being. This will certainly be an interesting one to watch and I think with Jackson's age and Spiller's seeming inability to shoulder a full workload, we might get a little bit of movement on Bryce as early as this season.

 
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
We still talking about the guy beat out by Chris Polk as a starter?
Coaches never make mistakes is your take then?Who beat out Priest Holmes and how could Baltimore let him walk knowing how good he was. I mean Ozzie Newsome can't spy talent or?

Why'd Terrell Davis make it to the sixth round?

How could Arian Foster not get drafted?

Why'd Indy make Faulk split carries his last year there and then how could they trade Marshall Faulk in his prime before he blew up HOF style with STL?

How could any RB ever get cut or let go in a cut cutting move or be traded if he had any talent?

I'm not keen on asking rhetorical questions that could paint you in a corner because it looks like coaches and personnel men haven't always make perfect decisions.

Bryce is one of the rare NFL RBs who have been traded for even a conditional 3rd round pick. He has undeniable talent

This may not be a zero-sum game where the Eagles or the Bills are going to be proven 100% correct but I highly value fantasy RBs who have talent + opportunity and I think many people are not seeing the opportunity that should/will open up in 2015 for Bryce Brown.

DropKick said:
Your logic is squirrelly at best... CJ had a bad ankle and could easily go well above 200 carries. Of last year's rookies, why consider the carries of a 3rd RB like Michael? Or Ball, who also had more experienced backs in front of him? Or even Bernard, in a time share at 170 carries. Fact is a rookie could easily push 300 carries as Lacy and Bell would have if not for injury. And Stacy too - had he been the starter from day 1 - and sometimes rookies do get that nod.

And, of course, Brown's chances are better if the Bills release all the backs in front of him and don't bring in anybody...

Brown looked like a world beater in limited 2012 action. Great combination of size and speed... But what happened after that? I'm more concerned about the Eagles giving up on him then I am optimistic in the Bills' interest.
I didn't cherry pick the guys drafted or the round or their oppotunities, they are what they are. Rookie RBs simply don't tear-it-up just because they were drafted in the 2ns round. And you can't blow off that CJ got injured because the guy only has 31 starts out of a possible 64. He's had injury concerns but he's one of the top-five highest paid NFL RBs. F-Jax has consistently gotten over 200 carries and he scores but he's old and highly paid to boot. Add CJ isn't a goal-line back and hasn't ever gotten much production catching the ball either so his ridiculously high salary becomes a major concern since he's in his contract year.We all know the key with RBs is talent + oppotunity and that rookie RBs have to prove they can pick up the blitz because pass-pro has kept many rookie RBs off the field their first NFL season.

I'm not nearly as concerned with BB not getting opportunities in Philly because LeSean McCoy was the best NFL RB last year and other RBs behind him weren't getting oppotunities.

He landed in Chip's doghouse. Chip let DeSean Jackson walk without getting any compensation but he got a conditional 3rd for BB.

Catbird said:
I agree the trade for pick shows some significant perceived value. I think EBF is right that veteran RBs go for less than rookies with similar talent levels (and submit the reason is that untested rookies might be the next Shady McCoy or ADP, whereas veterans who have had a chance and not looked to be elite talents no longer hold that allure). I agree with Larry that a future 3-4 doesn't carry the same weight in transactions between teams as a current 3-4, I'd think here the value was more like a current 4 though, as the possibility it becomes a future 3 means it could be really valuable.

I don't think Larry is going to find any further assurances that Brown will become a dominant NFL RB. I think BUF's trade says they know Freddie is about done and Brown is the best replacement piece they could come up with (post-Hyde effort). He has shown great skills, but has also fumbled and cut everything to the outside where his size suggests he should be a successful pounder as well. I think the price says he will get a full and fair chance to replace FJax. I am guessing from what I see that they will mix Brown in this year behind the starters, let Fred go next year and hope to run with a mix of Brown and CJ, which split will depend on what they see from both guys this year. whether they replace Brown next year with a rookie will likely depend completely on how he performs from here (within the restrictions of other team needs with their few '15 picks). I don't think we get any further read than brown will get a fair chance and his role will be determined by his production.

But I agree with EBF that you don't typically get that potential value in a RB50. (Edit for horrible grammar.)
Sorry but I have to take exception this because its simply not true to say that EVERY TIME Bryce Brown touched the ball he bounced it outside.

EBF has made a great point on how rare it is for NFL RBs to be traded and how often teams have gotten incredible value/talent with little investment.

I think the Bills saw an opportunity to land an incrdible talent at a bargain.
My take is, the Eagles have more to lose (than gain) by trading him for a future pick and replacing him with a 31 year old and a guy who had 11 carries last year. It tells me they didn't think too much of him. They run their offense at a fast pace and need bodies--especially at RB--due to high likelihood of injury. If McCoy goes down they need a quality player in his place. It tells me the Brown wasn't quality enough in the present to warrant passing on a future 4th rounder. It tells me that, even though they are trying to win it all, and despite the fact that his cap number is super low, they felt a future pick was a better option for the 2014 season.

 
ROYALWITCHEESE said:
We still talking about the guy beat out by Chris Polk as a starter?
Coaches never make mistakes is your take then?Who beat out Priest Holmes and how could Baltimore let him walk knowing how good he was. I mean Ozzie Newsome can't spy talent or?

Why'd Terrell Davis make it to the sixth round?

How could Arian Foster not get drafted?

Why'd Indy make Faulk split carries his last year there and then how could they trade Marshall Faulk in his prime before he blew up HOF style with STL?

How could any RB ever get cut or let go in a cut cutting move or be traded if he had any talent?

I'm not keen on asking rhetorical questions that could paint you in a corner because it looks like coaches and personnel men haven't always make perfect decisions.

Bryce is one of the rare NFL RBs who have been traded for even a conditional 3rd round pick. He has undeniable talent

This may not be a zero-sum game where the Eagles or the Bills are going to be proven 100% correct but I highly value fantasy RBs who have talent + opportunity and I think many people are not seeing the opportunity that should/will open up in 2015 for Bryce Brown.

DropKick said:
Your logic is squirrelly at best... CJ had a bad ankle and could easily go well above 200 carries. Of last year's rookies, why consider the carries of a 3rd RB like Michael? Or Ball, who also had more experienced backs in front of him? Or even Bernard, in a time share at 170 carries. Fact is a rookie could easily push 300 carries as Lacy and Bell would have if not for injury. And Stacy too - had he been the starter from day 1 - and sometimes rookies do get that nod.

And, of course, Brown's chances are better if the Bills release all the backs in front of him and don't bring in anybody...

Brown looked like a world beater in limited 2012 action. Great combination of size and speed... But what happened after that? I'm more concerned about the Eagles giving up on him then I am optimistic in the Bills' interest.
I didn't cherry pick the guys drafted or the round or their oppotunities, they are what they are. Rookie RBs simply don't tear-it-up just because they were drafted in the 2ns round. And you can't blow off that CJ got injured because the guy only has 31 starts out of a possible 64. He's had injury concerns but he's one of the top-five highest paid NFL RBs. F-Jax has consistently gotten over 200 carries and he scores but he's old and highly paid to boot. Add CJ isn't a goal-line back and hasn't ever gotten much production catching the ball either so his ridiculously high salary becomes a major concern since he's in his contract year.We all know the key with RBs is talent + oppotunity and that rookie RBs have to prove they can pick up the blitz because pass-pro has kept many rookie RBs off the field their first NFL season.

I'm not nearly as concerned with BB not getting opportunities in Philly because LeSean McCoy was the best NFL RB last year and other RBs behind him weren't getting oppotunities.

He landed in Chip's doghouse. Chip let DeSean Jackson walk without getting any compensation but he got a conditional 3rd for BB.

Catbird said:
I agree the trade for pick shows some significant perceived value. I think EBF is right that veteran RBs go for less than rookies with similar talent levels (and submit the reason is that untested rookies might be the next Shady McCoy or ADP, whereas veterans who have had a chance and not looked to be elite talents no longer hold that allure). I agree with Larry that a future 3-4 doesn't carry the same weight in transactions between teams as a current 3-4, I'd think here the value was more like a current 4 though, as the possibility it becomes a future 3 means it could be really valuable.

I don't think Larry is going to find any further assurances that Brown will become a dominant NFL RB. I think BUF's trade says they know Freddie is about done and Brown is the best replacement piece they could come up with (post-Hyde effort). He has shown great skills, but has also fumbled and cut everything to the outside where his size suggests he should be a successful pounder as well. I think the price says he will get a full and fair chance to replace FJax. I am guessing from what I see that they will mix Brown in this year behind the starters, let Fred go next year and hope to run with a mix of Brown and CJ, which split will depend on what they see from both guys this year. whether they replace Brown next year with a rookie will likely depend completely on how he performs from here (within the restrictions of other team needs with their few '15 picks). I don't think we get any further read than brown will get a fair chance and his role will be determined by his production.

But I agree with EBF that you don't typically get that potential value in a RB50. (Edit for horrible grammar.)
Sorry but I have to take exception this because its simply not true to say that EVERY TIME Bryce Brown touched the ball he bounced it outside.

EBF has made a great point on how rare it is for NFL RBs to be traded and how often teams have gotten incredible value/talent with little investment.

I think the Bills saw an opportunity to land an incrdible talent at a bargain.
My take is, the Eagles have more to lose (than gain) by trading him for a future pick and replacing him with a 31 year old and a guy who had 11 carries last year. It tells me they didn't think too much of him. They run their offense at a fast pace and need bodies--especially at RB--due to high likelihood of injury. If McCoy goes down they need a quality player in his place. It tells me the Brown wasn't quality enough in the present to warrant passing on a future 4th rounder. It tells me that, even though they are trying to win it all, and despite the fact that his cap number is super low, they felt a future pick was a better option for the 2014 season.
Does Polk being a better fit for what Kelly wants than Brown mean that Polk is a better player, period? Or that Brown isn't good? Is Riley Cooper that much better than DeSean Jackson? Does Jackson suck? Or is Kelly just looking for specific things both on and off the field and Brown and Jackson didn't fit with his overall team concept?

 
All depends on your perspective. Brown was acquired for a 3rd-4th round pick. I've never personally bought the time discount theory, whether it's the NFL or FF. There is no inflation with draft picks. A 1st round pick is a 1st round pick. A 2nd round pick is a 2nd round pick. And so on. I would apply a very slight premium to earlier picks, but the idea that "a pick this year in round X is worth a pick next year in round X-1" has always seemed silly to me. If anyone in my leagues disagrees and wants to test that, I welcome them to offer me future picks for a one round discount. I will automatically accept any offer of that sort.

As far as Brown goes, both sides are choosing to see what they want to see. I can say he's the equivalent of a 3rd-4th round pick or maybe more because veteran RBs are usually somewhat cheap compared with rookies. Skeptics can say he's "really" a 5th-6th round pick because of the time delay on the picks and that the trade should be viewed through a skeptical lens because the Bills are inept. The facts are mostly indisputable, but the interpretation of them is up for debate. People who already thought Brown had good potential are making an optimistic reading of the facts. People who didn't are making a skeptical reading of the facts. Par for the course around here, as this is what it boils down to in almost every player debate on these boards (see: Michael, Richardson, etc).

From my experience, it's not worth the trouble trying to convince people that you've got it right because nobody ever changes their mind until they're forced to by the actual outcome itself. I'll just say that being right is more important than having other people think you're right. My personal take is that a comparison with the likes of Mason, West, Pierce, and Freeman is perfectly fair and maybe even slanted in Bryce's favor. Already laid out my case and don't have much more to add for the time being. This will certainly be an interesting one to watch and I think with Jackson's age and Spiller's seeming inability to shoulder a full workload, we might get a little bit of movement on Bryce as early as this season.
I know you tend to think anyone who disagrees with your opinion is a "hater", but once again you're wrong here- I like and own Brown, but I'm viewing it through a reasonable lens. They didn't get him for nothing, but it's far from the same cost as guys like Hyde, Hill, etc. It's silly to state otherwise.

Why are you talking about FF picks? This is about their NFL acquisition costs, so the analogy would be if Cincy would have traded the #55 pick this year (which they used on Hill) for the future conditional 4th rounder Buffalo gave up for Brown. There's nothing skeptical about that, no one in their right mind would think it's close.

 
He's basically worth a late first in rookie drafts I think. I have him right in there with Hyde and Hill. Not as high as Sankey and not as low as Carey or West. On the one hand he kind of washed out in Philly and on the other he's shown he can play at the NFL level. Maybe an early second but as an owner, I would trade him straight up for and Allen Robinson or Moncrief.

 
He's basically worth a late first in rookie drafts I think. I have him right in there with Hyde and Hill. Not as high as Sankey and not as low as Carey or West. On the one hand he kind of washed out in Philly and on the other he's shown he can play at the NFL level. Maybe an early second but as an owner, I would trade him straight up for and Allen Robinson or Moncrief.
I tend to agree. Even more if you happen to own Spiller and FJax. I'm sending my 2.03 offer out tonight.

 
Does Polk being a better fit for what Kelly wants than Brown mean that Polk is a better player, period? Or that Brown isn't good? Is Riley Cooper that much better than DeSean Jackson? Does Jackson suck? Or is Kelly just looking for specific things both on and off the field and Brown and Jackson didn't fit with his overall team concept?
bryce brown is making 11m now?

 
All depends on your perspective. Brown was acquired for a 3rd-4th round pick. I've never personally bought the time discount theory, whether it's the NFL or FF. There is no inflation with draft picks. A 1st round pick is a 1st round pick. A 2nd round pick is a 2nd round pick. And so on. I would apply a very slight premium to earlier picks, but the idea that "a pick this year in round X is worth a pick next year in round X-1" has always seemed silly to me. If anyone in my leagues disagrees and wants to test that, I welcome them to offer me future picks for a one round discount. I will automatically accept any offer of that sort.

As far as Brown goes, both sides are choosing to see what they want to see. I can say he's the equivalent of a 3rd-4th round pick or maybe more because veteran RBs are usually somewhat cheap compared with rookies. Skeptics can say he's "really" a 5th-6th round pick because of the time delay on the picks and that the trade should be viewed through a skeptical lens because the Bills are inept. The facts are mostly indisputable, but the interpretation of them is up for debate. People who already thought Brown had good potential are making an optimistic reading of the facts. People who didn't are making a skeptical reading of the facts. Par for the course around here, as this is what it boils down to in almost every player debate on these boards (see: Michael, Richardson, etc).

From my experience, it's not worth the trouble trying to convince people that you've got it right because nobody ever changes their mind until they're forced to by the actual outcome itself. I'll just say that being right is more important than having other people think you're right. My personal take is that a comparison with the likes of Mason, West, Pierce, and Freeman is perfectly fair and maybe even slanted in Bryce's favor. Already laid out my case and don't have much more to add for the time being. This will certainly be an interesting one to watch and I think with Jackson's age and Spiller's seeming inability to shoulder a full workload, we might get a little bit of movement on Bryce as early as this season.
I know you tend to think anyone who disagrees with your opinion is a "hater", but once again you're wrong here- I like and own Brown, but I'm viewing it through a reasonable lens. They didn't get him for nothing, but it's far from the same cost as guys like Hyde, Hill, etc. It's silly to state otherwise.

Why are you talking about FF picks? This is about their NFL acquisition costs, so the analogy would be if Cincy would have traded the #55 pick this year (which they used on Hill) for the future conditional 4th rounder Buffalo gave up for Brown. There's nothing skeptical about that, no one in their right mind would think it's close.
but what you don't account for is that to him, and in his mind, that 2013 #55 for a future conditional 4th would be a perfectly good trade.

 

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