Bullfighting - pretty effed up "sport" (1 Viewer)

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

It should have been beneath me, but it wasn't.

Beneath you?

Never.

The cheese stands alone. 

 

[FreeBaGeL]

So you've taken one subset of hunters and made them into the reason to dislike hunting.  That makes sense.  Have you considered working for the Trump administration in some sort of Press Secretary or Public Relations role?

I'm no anti-hunting guy but there are some weird comparisons in here.  The buying meat vs. hunting is particularly weird.  In the most recent study 35% of hunters said they hunt for the meat.  So that leaves plenty of folks killing for other reasons.  "Sport", "to be with family and friends", "to be close to nature", and "For a trophy" split the other 65%.  All great reasons to murder an animal, right?

Likewise, according to PETA (so maybe a biased source) 11% of deer that are hunted suffer for more than 15 minutes before dying so the idea that the bulls suffer and they don't doesn't always line up either.

 

[Henry Ford]

I'm no anti-hunting guy but there are some weird comparisons in here.  The buying meat vs. hunting is particularly weird.  In the most recent study 35% of hunters said they hunt for the meat.  So that leaves plenty of folks killing for other reasons.  "Sport", "to be with family and friends", "to be close to nature", and "For a trophy" split the other 65%.  All great reasons to murder an animal, right?

Likewise, according to PETA (so maybe a biased source) 11% of deer that are hunted suffer for more than 15 minutes before dying so the idea that the bulls suffer and they don't doesn't always line up either.

Well, two issues here:

1. Roughly 0% of people operating a bolt gun in a cattle house do it for the meat.  They do it for the paycheck. The fact that the meat is ultimately used leads to a discussion of:

2. 35% of hunters in that 2013 survey do it primarily for the meat - it's the "most important reason." 2.8 million pounds of meat were donated to shelters, soup kitchens, food banks, etc in 2010 (last year I see data for.). That's 11 million meals for the hungry donated by people whose primary motivation was not "the meat."  That doesn't take into account people who go to have a comraderie weekend and still eat what they've shot.  It's still a motivation for many people who hunt who didn't call it the primary motivation, and I'd venture to say they aren't the ###hole sport hunters most of the time. 

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I'm no anti-hunting guy but there are some weird comparisons in here.  The buying meat vs. hunting is particularly weird.  In the most recent study 35% of hunters said they hunt for the meat.  So that leaves plenty of folks killing for other reasons.  "Sport", "to be with family and friends", "to be close to nature", and "For a trophy" split the other 65%.  All great reasons to murder an animal, right?

Likewise, according to PETA (so maybe a biased source) 11% of deer that are hunted suffer for more than 15 minutes before dying so the idea that the bulls suffer and they don't doesn't always line up either.

I would be curious to see this study.  I suspect it cites one's primary reason, and not their sole reason.  I know of no hunter who does not tag, keep and remove the animal, and then either process it or have it processed.  In fact I can think of very few instances where failing to do so would not constitute a crime.  For instance when I hunt it is for the meat.  That said I love being out in nature, and when I grew up this was a family event involving three generations of family and included cousins and uncles as well.

With the passing of my grandfather, uncle, and a sibling and cousin I hunted less and less. Having moved from a rural area to a suburban one, even less, and now with a wife and daughter who are opposed to the practice and who do not eat game meat, even less.  I now do so mostly with a camera as opposed to a gun.  Occasionally I still help friends set up their camps and process their kill.  I have been out a handful of times in the last decade.  I no longer keep a deep freeze in the garage as I haven't the need.

I have little doubt about your second statistic. Not all kills are clean and some animals are able to flee and they bleed out slowly, sometimes, undoubtedly in pain and panic.  Never for me, but I have known it to happen and it could happen to me the next time I go out.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Myself, I do not belief in trophy hunting. I abhor what I would term virility hunting.  Still, I leave others to their own decisions if they are not hurting me or mine directly.   Note that within this latter belief I think you are hurting me directly when you move a species perceptibly closer to extinction.

 

[Henry Ford]

I would be curious to see this study.  I suspect it cites one's primary reason, and not their sole reason.  I know of no hunter who does not tag, keep and remove the animal, and then either process it or have it processed.  In fact I can think of very few instances where failing to do so would not constitute a crime.  For instance when I hunt it is for the meat.  That said I love being out in nature, and when I grew up this was a family event involving three generations of family and included cousins and uncles as well.

With the passing of my grandfather, uncle, and a sibling and cousin I hunted less and less. Having moved from a rural area to a suburban one, even less, and now with a wife and daughter who are opposed to the practice and who do not eat game meat, even less.  I now do so mostly with a camera as opposed to a gun.  Occasionally I still help friends set up their camps and process their kill.  I have been out a handful of times in the last decade.  I no longer keep a deep freeze in the garage as I haven't the need.

I have little doubt about your second statistic. Not all kills are clean and some animals are able to flee and they bleed out slowly, sometimes, undoubtedly in pain and panic.  Never for me, but I have known it to happen and it could happen to me the next time I go out.

Same survey, when given an open-ended question asking the respondent to just name the reasons (without giving choices), 56% of respondents answered "food/meat."

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Well, two issues here:

1. Roughly 0% of people operating a bolt gun in a cattle house do it for the meat.  They do it for the paycheck. The fact that the meat is ultimately used leads to a discussion of:

2. 35% of hunters in that 2013 survey do it primarily for the meat - it's the "most important reason." 2.8 million pounds of meat were donated to shelters, soup kitchens, food banks, etc in 2010 (last year I see data for.). That's 11 million meals for the hungry donated by people whose primary motivation was not "the meat."  That doesn't take into account people who go to have a comraderie weekend and still eat what they've shot.  It's still a motivation for many people who hunt who didn't call it the primary motivation, and I'd venture to say they aren't the ###hole sport hunters most of the time. 

I would be curious to see this study.  I suspect it cites one's primary reason, and not their sole reason.  I know of no hunter who does not tag, keep and remove the animal, and then either process it or have it processed.  In fact I can think of very few instances where failing to do so would not constitute a crime.  For instance when I hunt it is for the meat.  That said I love being out in nature, and when I grew up this was a family event involving three generations of family and included cousins and uncles as well.

With the passing of my grandfather, uncle, and a sibling and cousin I hunted less and less. Having moved from a rural area to a suburban one, even less, and now with a wife and daughter who are opposed to the practice and who do not eat game meat, even less.  I now do so mostly with a camera as opposed to a gun.  Occasionally I still help friends set up their camps and process their kill.  I have been out a handful of times in the last decade.  I no longer keep a deep freeze in the garage as I haven't the need.

I have little doubt about your second statistic. Not all kills are clean and some animals are able to flee and they bleed out slowly, sometimes, undoubtedly in pain and panic.  Never for me, but I have known it to happen and it could happen to me the next time I go out.

Of course we're talking about the primary reason, not the only reason.  You guys realize that the meat from the dead fighting bulls is used/eaten too, right?

Bull fighting: 100% do it primarily for sport, 100% of dead bulls are eaten

Hunting: 65% do it primarily for sport, some unknown percentage of dead deer are eaten

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Same survey, when given an open-ended question asking the respondent to just name the reasons (without giving choices), 56% of respondents answered "food/meat."

I have heard that in fully 7% of surveys, regardless of the question asked, or responses listed, that  9% of respondent answer "food/meat".

 

[FreeBaGeL]

And if anything that 65% number is low, because c'mon...

"What do you want to do for dinner tonight honey?"

"I'm kind of in the mood for venison.  I know you hate hunting and get no enjoyment out of it, but do you think you could go hang out in the woods for a few hours and get us some dinner to save me the 5 minutes running up to the store"?

 yeah, that's exactly how the conversation goes for everyone that I've ever met that hunts.

My whole wife's family is very rural.  They hunt allll the time.  It's involved in every family vacation.  Not a single one of them does it to feed their family and most anyone that implies otherwise is lying.  They do it because it's fun.  Venison and venison jerky is tasty, but no one thinks it's actually worth all that effort on its own.  Even if they use it it's just a bonus to something they'd be doing either way.

 

[Henry Ford]

And if anything that 65% number is low, because c'mon...

"What do you want to do for dinner tonight honey?"

"I'm kind of in the mood for venison.  I know you hate hunting and get no enjoyment out of it, but do you think you could go hang out in the woods for a few hours and get us some dinner"?

 yeah, that's exactly how the conversation goes for everyone that I've ever met that hunts.

My whole wife's family is very rural.  They hunt allll the time.  Not a single one of them does it to feed their family and most anyone that implies otherwise is lying.  They do it because it's fun.

How about "That deer meat is almost gone.  I'm going to go hunting again to process another and freeze it so we have venison for the next several months"?  Ever heard that or a variation of it?  I have.

 

[Henry Ford]

I have heard that in fully 7% of surveys, regardless of the question asked, or responses listed, that  9% of respondent answer "food/meat".

"What's the primary reason you enjoy reality television?"

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Of course we're talking about the primary reason, not the only reason.  You guys realize that the meat from the dead fighting bulls is used/eaten too, right?

Bull fighting: 100% do it primarily for sport, 100% of dead bulls are eaten

Hunting: 65% do it primarily for sport, some unknown percentage of dead deer are eaten

I understand that many find killing disturbing or distasteful.  I understand that those folks would prefer killing not seem to be sport or to be a joyful thing, that such seems barbaric.  I even appreciate those feelings.  I encourage those folks to have conviction in their beliefs and feelings and to conduct themselves consistently with their beliefs.I know many do. 

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

"What's the primary reason you enjoy reality television?"

Boobs.

 

[Henry Ford]

Boobs.

"Meat"

 

[The General]

As long as hunting is being regulated and not damaging the health of a species then I guess have at it. Weird hobby.

 

[Henry Ford]

I know a number of people whose primary sources of meat and fish are hunting and fishing.

Granted, at least one of them eats a lot of squirrel, but still.

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

I know a number of people whose primary sources of meat and fish are hunting and fishing.

Granted, at least one of them eats a lot of squirrel, but still.

I thought this was covered under our attorney-client privilege, Henry! 

You retainer bill may be a little late this month...

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

How about "That deer meat is almost gone.  I'm going to go hunting again to process another and freeze it so we have venison for the next several months"?  Ever heard that or a variation of it?  I have.

Until I left home for college at 17 I rarely (read less than 1 time a month, much less probably) had store bought or butcher bought meat, at least at home.  The same for dairy, except cheese, baked goods, or produce.  I did live in an unusual circumstance where beef, lamb, chicken, dairy and pork were available on our farm or on relative's farms close by.  We also had orchards, gardens, and ready access to woods and lakes and streams.

We did occasionally eat at restaurants, and friends homes, naturally, had store bought items.

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

In all seriousness, while I do abhor the "sport" of bullfighting, I fall squarely into the camp of Henry and DW in regards to hunting.

And for those who cannot accept such arguments, I would ask:

Are insects and plant life that much less "'taboo"' in regards  to "harvesting for consumption"?

Are they they not alive? Do they not "sense"? 

 

[Dedfin]

You gotta be a simple mother####er to think all people that hunt consider it sport.  Lots of them consider it getting food.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

In all seriousness, while I do abhor the "sport" of bullfighting, I fall squarely into the camp of Henry and DW in regards to hunting.

And for those who cannot accept such arguments, I would ask:

Are insects and plant life that much less "'taboo"' in regards  to "harvesting for consumption"?

Are they they not alive? Do they not "sense"? 

I think it is unnecessary and senseless mocking of the animal to have its executioner dress up like a drag queen in Carol Channing evening ware.  I also do not think of any kill in the bull ring as a "clean kill" since it often takes 15 or more minutes and the animal is invariably covered in blood long before the end. 

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

I think it is unnecessary and senseless mocking of the animal to have its executioner dress up like a drag queen in Carol Channing evening ware.  I also do not think of any kill in the bull ring as a "clean kill" since it often takes 15 or more minutes and the animal is invariably covered in blood long before the end. 

Exactly.

The "true intention" of ethical hunters, is a quick kill. If, for no other reason, than to shorten the distance they have to travel in order to retrieve the result. This is true in both "meat hunting" and "game hunting". While I am not a fan of "game hunting", I fully acknowledge that they are just as lazy/efficient as any other hunters. Thus, quick kill = quick access.

The prolonged agony of the kill in bullfighting, imo, is strictly "show"...and an inhumane display. I do not like to judge others, but in this case, I really wish this "sport" would just go away...quickly.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Exactly.

The "true intention" of ethical hunters, is a quick kill. If, for no other reason, than to shorten the distance they have to travel in order to retrieve the result. This is true in both "meat hunting" and "game hunting". While I am not a fan of "game hunting", I fully acknowledge that they are just as lazy/efficient as any other hunters. Thus, quick kill = quick access.

The prolonged agony of the kill in bullfighting, imo, is strictly "show"...and an inhumane display. I do not like to judge others, but in this case, I really wish this "sport" would just go away...quickly.

I understand respecting other's cultures.  Still, I would probably speak up and perhaps take action if I saw some culture tossing virgins in a volcano.  Given that I understand why folks speak up against matters I would consider further down the scale though they may not, matters like bull fighting, #### fighting, bear baiting, monkey knife fights, and of course slow boiling frogs to see if that old canard is true.  

 

[Henry Ford]

I understand respecting other's cultures.  Still, I would probably speak up and perhaps take action if I saw some culture tossing virgins in a volcano.  Given that I understand why folks speak up against matters I would consider further down the scale though they may not, matters like bull fighting, #### fighting, bear baiting, monkey knife fights, and of course slow boiling frogs to see if that old canard is true.  

It is not.

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

I understand respecting other's cultures.  Still, I would probably speak up and perhaps take action if I saw some culture tossing virgins in a volcano.  Given that I understand why folks speak up against matters I would consider further down the scale though they may not, matters like bull fighting, #### fighting, bear baiting, monkey knife fights, and of course slow boiling frogs to see if that old canard is true.  

This reminds me of what I consider to be my most inhumane act in regards to animals.

I was a biology/chemistry guy in college, and in one of my upper level physiology classes we were asked to perform a certain experiment on a frog. This was in the early 90's, and even then, it was a topic of controversy. Thus, it was not "required". I was the only one in my class who opted to actually perform the experiment.

It required us (me) to incrementally remove portions of the frog's brain, while testing neuro-electrical and behavioral results. 

Science.

Inhumane.

Condemn the whole process.

I am being snaky in my above 3 lines, as science has come a long way since then in regards to "animal rights", but humanity as whole has often overlooked and disregarded  the suffering of other species in many, many ways. (And still does.)

This is in no way meant to absolve any actions, but rather just an observation on how and why many find a way to rationalize such things.

The ethical hunting for food does not rank high on my list of things to be outraged about.

 

[Otis]

I haven't.  I've used it as a justification for hunting and not for other types of hunters.  In fact, you may notice that I mentioned there are a number of ###holes who are sport hunters.  I don't support that.  But subsistence hunting I definitely support.  And necessary population control hunting, which I think would be best served by donating meat to food banks.  

How many people are really doing this?

Honestly, how many people out there are like "####, the Walmart is 3 hours away, I need to do this to feed my family," or "I can't afford to shop at the Walmart," or "McDonald's closed early tonight and I'm starving so I better go shoot me some food"?

This "subsistence hunting" you speak of is interesting, but I'm willing to guess that in 2017, to the extent there is any eating of the kill, 90% of that is an afterthought/post-hoc justification for big men with small wieners having a chance to feel like they have big wieners. 

And the food bank idea is really neat. I'd love to hear how many real life examples there are of that. 

 

[Otis]

You gotta be a simple mother####er to think all people that hunt consider it sport.  Lots of them consider it getting food.

Yeah. I'm the simple mother####er. 

 

[Otis]

I know a number of people whose primary sources of meat and fish are hunting and fishing.

Granted, at least one of them eats a lot of squirrel, but still.

I know a number of deer whose primary source of stress is small peenie men with too much free time and not enough responsibility carrying guns and shooting at them. 

YMMV

 

[Henry Ford]

I know a number of deer whose primary source of stress is small peenie men with too much free time and not enough responsibility carrying guns and shooting at them. 

YMMV

Name one deer you know in that situation. 

 

[Henry Ford]

How many people are really doing this?

Honestly, how many people out there are like "####, the Walmart is 3 hours away, I need to do this to feed my family," or "I can't afford to shop at the Walmart," or "McDonald's closed early tonight and I'm starving so I better go shoot me some food"?

This "subsistence hunting" you speak of is interesting, but I'm willing to guess that in 2017, to the extent there is any eating of the kill, 90% of that is an afterthought/post-hoc justification for big men with small wieners having a chance to feel like they have big wieners. 

And the food bank idea is really neat. I'd love to hear how many real life examples there are of that. 

2.8 million pounds in 2010 in the US.  That's how many examples. 

And since you don't know many hunters, I don't really put much stock in your guess regarding why they eat their kills. I know a lot of hunters.  And if meat wasn't involved most would go bowling. Much like fishermen. 

It's not a "dinner tonight, let's go hunting" situation.  It's a "hunt, clean, pack into a chest freezer for the year" situation.

 

[Otis]

2.8 million pounds in 2010 in the US.  That's how many examples. 

And since you don't know many hunters, I don't really put much stock in your guess regarding why they eat their kills. I know a lot of hunters.  And if meat wasn't involved most would go bowling. Much like fishermen. 

I know enough about people, and people who like guns, and people who like killing stuff, to feel comfortable forming an opinion. 

 

[Otis]

Name one deer you know in that situation. 

Bob the deer. 

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

How many people are really doing this?

Honestly, how many people out there are like "####, the Walmart is 3 hours away, I need to do this to feed my family," or "I can't afford to shop at the Walmart," or "McDonald's closed early tonight and I'm starving so I better go shoot me some food"?

1) Do you really equate fresh, well kept, hunted meat with "Walmart" or "McDonalds"? It's not about starving, its about providing for your family the best you can. Believe me, I would take well maintained hunted meat over these options 99% of the time.

This "subsistence hunting" you speak of is interesting, but I'm willing to guess that in 2017, to the extent there is any eating of the kill, 90% of that is an afterthought/post-hoc justification for big men with small wieners having a chance to feel like they have big wieners

2) This is surrealism. Paint a picture of it and have it hung on your wall. That is as "real" as this perspective will get imo.

And the food bank idea is really neat. I'd love to hear how many real life examples there are of that. 

Well, my friends donate to it every single year. As above, if surrealism is your thing, you've got a point.

 

[Henry Ford]

I know enough about people, and people who like guns, and people who like killing stuff, to feel comfortable forming an opinion. 

There's big difference between city folk buying guns and country folk buying guns.  There really is. 

Also, some hunters like killing stuff about as much as you do.  But they like to eat.  And they accept what eating meat is. And they look down on people who forget it involves death because it's disrespectful. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Bob the deer. 

"Some of my best friends are deer."

 

[Cowboysfan8]

Yeah. I'm the simple mother####er. 

You sure are 

 

[Otis]

There's big difference between city folk buying guns and country folk buying guns.  There really is. 

Also, some hunters like killing stuff about as much as you do.  But they like to eat.  And they accept what eating meat is. And they look down on people who forget it involves death because it's disrespectful. 

I'd love to meet all these many people who hunt but hate killing. They probably have a huge Facebook group. 

"I can't help it because Golden Corral was booked up and I hate hate hate shooting my gun but I just had no choice but to take it off the mantle and shoot a 5 point buck and mount the head on my fireplace JK I mean make a venison casserole."

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

I'd love to meet all these many people who hunt  eat flesh but hate killing. They probably have a huge Facebook group. 

FYP

 

[Henry Ford]

I'd love to meet all these many people who hunt but hate killing. They probably have a huge Facebook group. 

"I can't help it because Golden Corral was booked up and I hate hate hate shooting my gun but I just had no choice but to take it off the mantle and shoot a 5 point buck and mount the head on my fireplace JK I mean make a venison casserole."

http://www.hcn.org/issues/49/1504

 

[Cowboysfan8]

http://www.hcn.org/issues/49/1504

I enjoyed that. Thanks 

 

[Otis]

http://www.hcn.org/issues/49/1504

Welp, there's one guy. 22 years ago. In a story that was only newsworthy because of the headline suggesting he's not the norm.

I'M SOLD. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Welp, there's one guy. 22 years ago. In a story that was only newsworthy because of the headline suggesting he's not the norm.

I'M SOLD. 

K. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Welp, there's one guy. 22 years ago. In a story that was only newsworthy because of the headline suggesting he's not the norm.

I'M SOLD. 

http://forum.expeditionportal.com/threads/12697-I-am-a-hunter-yet-I-do-not-like-to-kill-animals

http://blog.marchesiphoto.com/why-i-hunt-how-did-an-animal-lover-like-me-became-a-hunter-a-cold-blooded-killer-has-my-heart-gone-rotten/

There are dozens of links available.  It's okay to be willfully ignorant if you want to be.  Much of the country is right now. Just on varying subjects. 

 

[Otis]

http://forum.expeditionportal.com/threads/12697-I-am-a-hunter-yet-I-do-not-like-to-kill-animals

http://blog.marchesiphoto.com/why-i-hunt-how-did-an-animal-lover-like-me-became-a-hunter-a-cold-blooded-killer-has-my-heart-gone-rotten/

There are dozens of links available.  It's okay to be willfully ignorant if you want to be.  Much of the country is right now. Just on varying subjects. 

Citations to three blogs.  Now there's overwhelming evidence if I've ever seen it. 

Gun nerds like guns. 

Gun nerds like to shoot guns at stuff and kill stuff. 

Sry

 

[Otis]

But Otis, what about all the school shooting...

SHHH DON'T TAKE MY GUNZ

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Bob the deer. 

I know Bob.  He is much more concerned about crossing the road at night.  Those car headlights mesmerize him.  He knows they represent death, but he is drawn to them and this causes him stress.  Well that and that Doug always gets a harem of does every fall while he gets no action yet again.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Bob the deer. 

All i can think of reading this is that old espn commercial where the knowledge hairball ran around saying bob lanier bob lanier.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Otis.  You are a good man, a man formed by your upbringing and surroundings. You are also one separated from the realities of producing the food you eat.  All that said I acknowledge that there are what I call virility hunters and what you call guys with small wieners. (You forgot that those small wieners are also limp).  Certainly there are hunters who derive great satisfaction from killing.  There are some who do it not for food, but for empowerment.  I have met them.  They are more prevalent living in Cities, from my experience, than living in the country.  Actually it is likely more accurate to say it is more prevalent among those who have always lived in a City than simply their current residence. I worry about those not raised in the habit who suddenly, as adults, decide for the first time to buy a gun and go hunting.  They are unsafe, almost always unschooled in what to do if they happen to be successful.  I saw this type every year as they would stumble onto our land with no idea about land boundaries or safety. It was a yearly event, us removing them from our property.  See we did not want drunks shooting towards our home or livestock.  Often things got quite confrontational.  Often the sheriff had to be called.  Often we had to disarm those drunken half frozen fools.  

We called these folks Flatlanders, Chicagoans.  Had I been raised in the Catskills or Poconos we would have called them asswipes from "The City".

 

[Tom Skerritt]

 And if meat wasn't involved most would go bowling. Much like fishermen. 

I will respectfully disagree here. Most fisherpeople I know are catch and release fishers. And to me, this is torture and akin to thrill of the kill and trophy hunting.

I do not like fishing, but I can respect the fact that it "puts meat on the table" for those who actually clean and cook the fish. But many/most don't do this.

 

[Henry Ford]

Citations to three blogs.  Now there's overwhelming evidence if I've ever seen it. 

Gun nerds like guns. 

Gun nerds like to shoot guns at stuff and kill stuff. 

Sry

"There's no evidence"

"Here's an article"

"One article from 22 years ago isn't enough, loser"

"Here's a message board with a bunch of people discussing it and another article from two years ago"

"FAKE NEWS ALL CAPS"

Lovely chatting with you, Otis.