Buster Olney: (1 Viewer)

[Raider Nation]

Craig Calcaterra - NBC Sports

I scoffed this morning when I read George Vecsey's statement this morning that, 600 homers or no, A-Rod will never get into the Hall of Fame. But maybe he's not wrong. Buster Olney -- who is on record as saying he will vote for A-Rod when he comes up for consideration -- takes a look around the BBWAA and the veteran's committee and thinks that Rodriguez's chances are grim:

I've voted for McGwire, and I will vote for Clemens and Bonds and Rodriguez, because within the context of their era -- a time when most of the best players were probably using drugs -- they were the best players . . . But that view is clearly in the minority among voting members of the Baseball Writers' Association. And that means that Rodriguez, an acknowledged user for performance-enhancing drugs, is never getting into the Hall of Fame, no matter if he hits 600 or 6,000 homers.

I sure hope he's wrong. Not because I care so much about Rodriguez's fate for its own sake, but because I'd hate to see the Hall of Fame become an utterly irrelevant institution. Which is exactly what it would be if it completely ignores the accomplishments of an entire era's best players.Olney nails it here: Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod all used, but so too did a great number of their peers. By some estimates the majority of them. While we can argue about some borderline cases like Rafael Palmiero and maybe even McGwire, to think that, PEDs or not, that Alex Rodriguez wouldn't have still been among the best of his era is rather silly.

 

[Limp Ditka]

IMO, all of the writers should shut their collective mouth on these questionable / guilty guys and let the veterans committee sort them out as they see fit.

It should be up to their peers

 

[Eephus]

If there are still newspapers around by then, there will be many pompous, self-righteous columns written by BBWAA members. None will make any difference in the grand scheme of things.

 

[pollardsvision]

I wouldn't be surprised if they never get in. I'd vote for them all, but I don't vote. MLB is lucky enough to have a bunch of pencil neck sportswriters "protecting the game".

 

[Polar Dude]

Rodriguez, an acknowledged user for performance-enhancing drugs, is never getting into the Hall of Fame, no matter if he hits 600 or 6,000 homers.

I have a feeling that if A-Rod knocked out 5,400 more homers in the remaining years of his career that he might squeak in.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Rodriguez, an acknowledged user for performance-enhancing drugs, is never getting into the Hall of Fame, no matter if he hits 600 or 6,000 homers.

I have a feeling that if A-Rod knocked out 5,400 more homers in the remaining years of his career that he might squeak in.

Yes, but not on the first ballot.

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

At some point, maybe a long way off, writers will catch up with reality. Everybody in baseball uses PED's. The only way to evaluate players from any era is against their peers and ARod clearly was an elite player of his era.

 

[Michael Brown]

At some point, maybe a long way off, writers will catch up with reality. Everybody in baseball uses PED's. The only way to evaluate players from any era is against their peers and ARod clearly was an elite player of his era.

I've heard this argument a lot, but I don't think I agree with it. Reason being, when Bonds decided to start using PEDs his numbers were on another planet -- not just in the context of history, but against his peers of the day. He was walking 232 times and hitting .370 and 73 HR and slugging .850 or whatever it was. Those numbers utterly dwarfed everyone else. Even in his prime during a non-PED era, his numbers were better but not on another plane.What I'm saying is, without the drugs Barry was the best in the game but others were in the neighborhood. But when he started juicing, he was doing impossible things. I think the PEDs helped the users way more than people are giving credit for when they say things like "everyone was using". If EVERYONE was in fact using, then Bonds' stats should've only been just a little bit better than the other elite guys -- not twice as good as the next-best guy.

 

[Smack Tripper]

A-Rod's HOF candidacy will not be news. He's not retiring any time soon I don't think, he's on a 7 year deal for great money, and records and health should permit him to play for another 3-5 years easily. So we are looking at this HOF question coming up 8-10 years down the road. By then, we should know exactly how HOF candidates are being managed and judged.

A-Rod and Clemens should be interesting litmus tests as guys who would have made the hall before that seeming late career spike into the elite. Both had won multiple MVPs/Cy Youngs, so we'll see how they are judged, although the voting won't be all the tale. It seems in America, and in sports, we put so much value in contrition, its a strange obsession, bordering on the masochistic. Like, if we WATCH you suffer, you can be redeemed. Clemens and Bonds were both so defiant in their defenses that they didn't juice, against overwhelming evidence to the contrary, I think that will be held against them. They both have time before they are eligible, and both have pending legal cases in regard to their matters, so maybe they'll never fess up, but I figure that will be inevitable.

To that point, A-Rod has confessed and told the truth. Was it the whole truth and nothing but the truth? We'll never know and can really never know given that he lied to us. He claims he did it in Texas, and we can all say he WOULD have likewise been in the Hall, but do we really KNOW that? I don't, and interestingly about A-Rod, his numbers never really spiked to insane levels. He went from a 40 hr guy to a 50 hr guy, but playing in Texas, thats not an insane thing. Ok, 54 homers as a righty in old yankee stadium is pretty telling, but who knows.

So the bottom line, its too early to worry about his HOF stuff and when we do know, there will be a whole bunch of other guys vetted so we should know where he stands.

What I do object to, and I'll be curious to see how its remembered by the press, but you have certain roid poster boys: A-Rod, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Palmiero, Sosa, who were HOF contenders and much is made of their use, rightfully and fairly so, and if they never sniff the hall, I'll have no sympathy for them.

But my issue with the guys who've used, maybe briefly, maybe more, and we KNOW about, like Ivan Rodriegez, where this isn't really part of their resume, beyond minor footnote. If the "big ones" don't make it, the Pudge's of the world shouldn't make it either. Even lately, I'm hearing Pettite get more mention of that. Even Manny who had a suspension for it, doesn't seem to get the same brush. I have no problem with activist voters for the Hall, but they should be consistent with their ire.

 

[Spike]

The study I'd like to see in the historical context for homeruns isn't a PED one it would be solely based on the size of the ballparks.

I think at one point Yankee Stadium was on the order of 480 to center field (as an example).

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

At some point, maybe a long way off, writers will catch up with reality. Everybody in baseball uses PED's. The only way to evaluate players from any era is against their peers and ARod clearly was an elite player of his era.

I've heard this argument a lot, but I don't think I agree with it. Reason being, when Bonds decided to start using PEDs his numbers were on another planet -- not just in the context of history, but against his peers of the day. He was walking 232 times and hitting .370 and 73 HR and slugging .850 or whatever it was. Those numbers utterly dwarfed everyone else. Even in his prime during a non-PED era, his numbers were better but not on another plane.What I'm saying is, without the drugs Barry was the best in the game but others were in the neighborhood. But when he started juicing, he was doing impossible things. I think the PEDs helped the users way more than people are giving credit for when they say things like "everyone was using". If EVERYONE was in fact using, then Bonds' stats should've only been just a little bit better than the other elite guys -- not twice as good as the next-best guy.

Bonds was that much better. Before he started he was till going against pitchers who were. Steroids have helped Pitchers way more than hitters.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

What I do object to, and I'll be curious to see how its remembered by the press, but you have certain roid poster boys: A-Rod, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Palmiero, Sosa, who were HOF contenders and much is made of their use, rightfully and fairly so, and if they never sniff the hall, I'll have no sympathy for them.But my issue with the guys who've used, maybe briefly, maybe more, and we KNOW about, like Ivan Rodriegez, where this isn't really part of their resume, beyond minor footnote. If the "big ones" don't make it, the Pudge's of the world shouldn't make it either. Even lately, I'm hearing Pettite get more mention of that. Even Manny who had a suspension for it, doesn't seem to get the same brush. I have no problem with activist voters for the Hall, but they should be consistent with their ire.

There is no such thing as PED "poster boys" and you have to look at the strength of the resume and the entire era. How many deadball era pitchers who used the spitball, even as a 4th pitch, should be included into the hall of fame based on this standard? How many other guys in other sports will be affected? What percentage of football players have been on PEDs over the past 20 years? How may in baseball? The answer is countless. So if you lack sympathy for the poster boys you better take a long, hard look at sports in general and at who else entering the baseball hall was on the juice. Bonds should be in, period. A-Rod should be in, period. Clemens should be in, period. Those guys impacted the sport as premium players on and off the juice. Take the over the top numbers produced above their career average numbers of Bonds, A-Rod and Clemens and they still have HOF numbers. What about all those PED pitchers that threw Bonds 95 mph sinkers? Any consideration for that? Bonds and the others were on PEDs playing against guys on PEDs so the field wasn't completely unlevel which is something people rarely consider. Now McGuire and Sosa and some others? Maybe not. Those players lived and died on the juice, probably for a significant part of their careers. But Buster Olney and others have to sit back and look at the big picture and consider that if they keep Bonds or Clemens out, then no one should get in. Maybe Greg Maddux, but other than him I think we have to reasonably assume that a majority of players were on PEDs in this era. Is it unfair to Alan Trammell and Bert Blyleven? Sure. Is it unfair to Edgar Martinez, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell and Barry Larkin? Dunno, do we know they never used? I mean besides Frank Thomas and Greg Maddux there are a lot of question marks and we can’t even be 100% sure they didn’t use once or twice. Mike Piazza? Pedro? Jeff Kent? Bagwell? What if we put some of those guys in instead of Bonds or ARod and then we find out ten years later they were on the juice also? Do they get removed? It's a mess. So IMO you throw out only those that you are sure whould not have made the hall without the juice. Sosa and Palmiero for sure, McGuire maybe. Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Glavine, Maddux, Thomas, Alomar and Pedro should all get in regardless.

 

[wilked]

Pedro?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Pedro?

Amphetamines?

 

[wilked]

link?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Exactly, glad you can keep up for a change.

 

[Sea Bass]

Why the drop in numbers for this fellow? Age?

 

[Spartans Rule]

But Buster Olney and others have to sit back and look at the big picture and consider that if they keep Bonds or Clemens out, then no one should get in. Maybe Greg Maddux, but other than him I think we have to reasonably assume that a majority of players were on PEDs in this era. Is it unfair to Alan Trammell and Bert Blyleven? Sure. Is it unfair to Edgar Martinez, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell and Barry Larkin? Dunno, do we know they never used? I mean besides Frank Thomas and Greg Maddux there are a lot of question marks and we can’t even be 100% sure they didn’t use once or twice. Mike Piazza? Pedro? Jeff Kent? Bagwell? What if we put some of those guys in instead of Bonds or ARod and then we find out ten years later they were on the juice also? Do they get removed? It's a mess. So IMO you throw out only those that you are sure whould not have made the hall without the juice. Sosa and Palmiero for sure, McGuire maybe. Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Glavine, Maddux, Thomas, Alomar and Pedro should all get in regardless.

It shouldn't be the job of HOF voters to sort the mess out, because we're never going to know for sure who did and who didn't use. The HOF should be based on what happened on the field.

 

[wilked]

Exactly, glad you can keep up for a change.

ahh, gotchaI am of the mind that you will never know who did and did not, so remove PED use as a criterion

 

[Snotbubbles]

But Buster Olney and others have to sit back and look at the big picture and consider that if they keep Bonds or Clemens out, then no one should get in. Maybe Greg Maddux, but other than him I think we have to reasonably assume that a majority of players were on PEDs in this era. Is it unfair to Alan Trammell and Bert Blyleven? Sure. Is it unfair to Edgar Martinez, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell and Barry Larkin? Dunno, do we know they never used? I mean besides Frank Thomas and Greg Maddux there are a lot of question marks and we can’t even be 100% sure they didn’t use once or twice. Mike Piazza? Pedro? Jeff Kent? Bagwell? What if we put some of those guys in instead of Bonds or ARod and then we find out ten years later they were on the juice also? Do they get removed? It's a mess. So IMO you throw out only those that you are sure whould not have made the hall without the juice. Sosa and Palmiero for sure, McGuire maybe. Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Glavine, Maddux, Thomas, Alomar and Pedro should all get in regardless.

It shouldn't be the job of HOF voters to sort the mess out, because we're never going to know for sure who did and who didn't use. The HOF should be based on what happened on the field.

We know Bonds, ARod, McGwire, Palmeiro and Manny did. Those players without a doubt should be banned from the HOF just on character issues. Their numbers post 1992 should be erased from the record books as well.

 

[Eephus]

But Buster Olney and others have to sit back and look at the big picture and consider that if they keep Bonds or Clemens out, then no one should get in. Maybe Greg Maddux, but other than him I think we have to reasonably assume that a majority of players were on PEDs in this era. Is it unfair to Alan Trammell and Bert Blyleven? Sure. Is it unfair to Edgar Martinez, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell and Barry Larkin? Dunno, do we know they never used? I mean besides Frank Thomas and Greg Maddux there are a lot of question marks and we can’t even be 100% sure they didn’t use once or twice. Mike Piazza? Pedro? Jeff Kent? Bagwell? What if we put some of those guys in instead of Bonds or ARod and then we find out ten years later they were on the juice also? Do they get removed?

It's a mess. So IMO you throw out only those that you are sure whould not have made the hall without the juice. Sosa and Palmiero for sure, McGuire maybe. Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Glavine, Maddux, Thomas, Alomar and Pedro should all get in regardless.

It shouldn't be the job of HOF voters to sort the mess out, because we're never going to know for sure who did and who didn't use. The HOF should be based on what happened on the field.

We know Bonds, ARod, McGwire, Palmeiro and Manny did. Those players without a doubt should be banned from the HOF just on character issues. Their numbers post 1992 should be erased from the record books as well.

It's still real to me, damn it

 

[Doctor Detroit]

But Buster Olney and others have to sit back and look at the big picture and consider that if they keep Bonds or Clemens out, then no one should get in. Maybe Greg Maddux, but other than him I think we have to reasonably assume that a majority of players were on PEDs in this era. Is it unfair to Alan Trammell and Bert Blyleven? Sure. Is it unfair to Edgar Martinez, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell and Barry Larkin? Dunno, do we know they never used? I mean besides Frank Thomas and Greg Maddux there are a lot of question marks and we can’t even be 100% sure they didn’t use once or twice. Mike Piazza? Pedro? Jeff Kent? Bagwell? What if we put some of those guys in instead of Bonds or ARod and then we find out ten years later they were on the juice also? Do they get removed? It's a mess. So IMO you throw out only those that you are sure whould not have made the hall without the juice. Sosa and Palmiero for sure, McGuire maybe. Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Glavine, Maddux, Thomas, Alomar and Pedro should all get in regardless.

It shouldn't be the job of HOF voters to sort the mess out, because we're never going to know for sure who did and who didn't use. The HOF should be based on what happened on the field.

We know Bonds, ARod, McGwire, Palmeiro and Manny did. Those players without a doubt should be banned from the HOF just on character issues. Their numbers post 1992 should be erased from the record books as well.

Yeah, that is just dumb. Bonds didn't even start allegedly using PEDs until 2000. In 1999 the Sporting News ranked him as the 34th greatest ever player, Bill James said he was the second best active player. Why the #### should we wipe out all those years? Because you don't like him? Because you started watching baseball in 2000? Because Philadelphia talk radio tells you that is logical? Your post should be erased from the internet.

 

[Smack Tripper]

What I do object to, and I'll be curious to see how its remembered by the press, but you have certain roid poster boys: A-Rod, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Palmiero, Sosa, who were HOF contenders and much is made of their use, rightfully and fairly so, and if they never sniff the hall, I'll have no sympathy for them.But my issue with the guys who've used, maybe briefly, maybe more, and we KNOW about, like Ivan Rodriegez, where this isn't really part of their resume, beyond minor footnote. If the "big ones" don't make it, the Pudge's of the world shouldn't make it either. Even lately, I'm hearing Pettite get more mention of that. Even Manny who had a suspension for it, doesn't seem to get the same brush. I have no problem with activist voters for the Hall, but they should be consistent with their ire.

There is no such thing as PED "poster boys" and you have to look at the strength of the resume and the entire era. How many deadball era pitchers who used the spitball, even as a 4th pitch, should be included into the hall of fame based on this standard? How many other guys in other sports will be affected? What percentage of football players have been on PEDs over the past 20 years? How may in baseball? The answer is countless. So if you lack sympathy for the poster boys you better take a long, hard look at sports in general and at who else entering the baseball hall was on the juice. Bonds should be in, period. A-Rod should be in, period. Clemens should be in, period. Those guys impacted the sport as premium players on and off the juice. Take the over the top numbers produced above their career average numbers of Bonds, A-Rod and Clemens and they still have HOF numbers. What about all those PED pitchers that threw Bonds 95 mph sinkers? Any consideration for that? Bonds and the others were on PEDs playing against guys on PEDs so the field wasn't completely unlevel which is something people rarely consider. Now McGuire and Sosa and some others? Maybe not. Those players lived and died on the juice, probably for a significant part of their careers. But Buster Olney and others have to sit back and look at the big picture and consider that if they keep Bonds or Clemens out, then no one should get in. Maybe Greg Maddux, but other than him I think we have to reasonably assume that a majority of players were on PEDs in this era. Is it unfair to Alan Trammell and Bert Blyleven? Sure. Is it unfair to Edgar Martinez, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell and Barry Larkin? Dunno, do we know they never used? I mean besides Frank Thomas and Greg Maddux there are a lot of question marks and we can’t even be 100% sure they didn’t use once or twice. Mike Piazza? Pedro? Jeff Kent? Bagwell? What if we put some of those guys in instead of Bonds or ARod and then we find out ten years later they were on the juice also? Do they get removed? It's a mess. So IMO you throw out only those that you are sure whould not have made the hall without the juice. Sosa and Palmiero for sure, McGuire maybe. Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Glavine, Maddux, Thomas, Alomar and Pedro should all get in regardless.

You're preaching to the choir on the other sports issue. I've been quick to defend baseball in general in the FFA and other places when attacks start on baseball. But to answer your question, baseball gets flack because it HAS a reputation. The NFL, on PED's, is the wild west. To think that Merriman, as a face of the league and the best defensive player in football, could get suspended and its just a blip on the sports news cycle while every time a baseball player goes through it, ESPN breaks into programming and has a whole dog and pony show, is absurd. Looking objectively and looking at physiques, I have no doubt roid and/or HGH use and abuse is rampant in the NBA, NHL, NCAA football and Hoops, Tennis and Golf. For some reasons, the other sports skate, but maybe I'm biased, but in many respects, the other sports are a joke. Roid abuse in the NFL, ref scandals and lifestyle issues in the NBA. Yet MLB, which actually is proactive about maintaining some integrity, is continually impuned. And to that end, the other sports HOF's are kind of jokes. I don't think any are taken as seriously, by and large, as MLB's. There is a standard beyond statistics and the HOF is a privilege, not a right. The 95mph sinkers? None of them redefined our record books, so to that end, maybe Bonds was TOO good. Bonds, Sosa, McGwire redefined virtually a century of records, between the 60 and 61 homers. I guess conceptually, these guys smashed these records in a manner consistent with chasing a legacy. And I will be completely honest, if they were upfront about their "enhancements"(which they all kept in the dark during their pursuits) I would think about them much differently. The question I always ask in regard to these guys is, if they were doing nothing wrong, why did they hide it? Why did they cover it up? Why do some still deny? Why did they keep doing it if they did nothing? To hear McGwire speak, and really sound like he believes that his roid use and the HR spike were unrelated would be laughable if it weren't disconcertingly delusional.And for the record, I'm inclined to agree with you on Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, even Pudge. They were HOFers without the juice. But they were HOFers that took the risk for what reason? They were all rich at the point they concievibly used them(unless you believe scuttlebutt that A-Rod has been on it since he was a teenager). They did so with legacy in mind. So while I think they should go, if they don't go, I won't lose any sleep. They did something they knew was wrong, for the wrong reasons and if it bites them, life is hard. How to handle the roid guys who get outed after the fact? I don't know, I'd like to think the writers are working with a mechanism to deal with that, although they make their recommendation to the Hall. I guess its a 5 year statue of limiations, if you have not been outed before your eligibility, then you get in. But the issue isn't otherwise complicated. The question isn't "what if Maddux did it" its "what do we do with the guys we know who DID".

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

What I do object to, and I'll be curious to see how its remembered by the press, but you have certain roid poster boys: A-Rod, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Palmiero, Sosa, who were HOF contenders and much is made of their use, rightfully and fairly so, and if they never sniff the hall, I'll have no sympathy for them.But my issue with the guys who've used, maybe briefly, maybe more, and we KNOW about, like Ivan Rodriegez, where this isn't really part of their resume, beyond minor footnote. If the "big ones" don't make it, the Pudge's of the world shouldn't make it either. Even lately, I'm hearing Pettite get more mention of that. Even Manny who had a suspension for it, doesn't seem to get the same brush. I have no problem with activist voters for the Hall, but they should be consistent with their ire.

There is no such thing as PED "poster boys" and you have to look at the strength of the resume and the entire era. How many deadball era pitchers who used the spitball, even as a 4th pitch, should be included into the hall of fame based on this standard? How many other guys in other sports will be affected? What percentage of football players have been on PEDs over the past 20 years? How may in baseball? The answer is countless. So if you lack sympathy for the poster boys you better take a long, hard look at sports in general and at who else entering the baseball hall was on the juice. Bonds should be in, period. A-Rod should be in, period. Clemens should be in, period. Those guys impacted the sport as premium players on and off the juice. Take the over the top numbers produced above their career average numbers of Bonds, A-Rod and Clemens and they still have HOF numbers. What about all those PED pitchers that threw Bonds 95 mph sinkers? Any consideration for that? Bonds and the others were on PEDs playing against guys on PEDs so the field wasn't completely unlevel which is something people rarely consider. Now McGuire and Sosa and some others? Maybe not. Those players lived and died on the juice, probably for a significant part of their careers. But Buster Olney and others have to sit back and look at the big picture and consider that if they keep Bonds or Clemens out, then no one should get in. Maybe Greg Maddux, but other than him I think we have to reasonably assume that a majority of players were on PEDs in this era. Is it unfair to Alan Trammell and Bert Blyleven? Sure. Is it unfair to Edgar Martinez, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell and Barry Larkin? Dunno, do we know they never used? I mean besides Frank Thomas and Greg Maddux there are a lot of question marks and we can’t even be 100% sure they didn’t use once or twice. Mike Piazza? Pedro? Jeff Kent? Bagwell? What if we put some of those guys in instead of Bonds or ARod and then we find out ten years later they were on the juice also? Do they get removed? It's a mess. So IMO you throw out only those that you are sure whould not have made the hall without the juice. Sosa and Palmiero for sure, McGuire maybe. Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Glavine, Maddux, Thomas, Alomar and Pedro should all get in regardless.

Never understood why Thomas gets a pass. He is as likely if not more so than anybody else from his era to have used PED's. Are you even that sure that Maddux didn't?

 

[Spartans Rule]

Never understood why Thomas gets a pass. He is as likely if not more so than anybody else from his era to have used PED's.

Thomas was calling for steroid testing as early as 1995, long before PEDs were even considered a problem. He spoke out against steroid use and for testing at every opportunity. He was one of the few players to agree to be interviewed for the Mitchell report.And even though he was big, he was big at Auburn too. He didn't magically gain 30 pounds of muscle during his career the way some other players did.None of that means he didn't use, but there's more reason to trust him than most players.

 

[Polar Dude]

Are you even that sure that Maddux didn't?

We can't be certain he didn't use, but with his skillset, it's doubtful that he benefited much from it. He didn't have much a fastball, and I doubt there are any PEDs out there that enhance pitch placement.

 

[Snotbubbles]

But Buster Olney and others have to sit back and look at the big picture and consider that if they keep Bonds or Clemens out, then no one should get in. Maybe Greg Maddux, but other than him I think we have to reasonably assume that a majority of players were on PEDs in this era. Is it unfair to Alan Trammell and Bert Blyleven? Sure. Is it unfair to Edgar Martinez, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell and Barry Larkin? Dunno, do we know they never used? I mean besides Frank Thomas and Greg Maddux there are a lot of question marks and we can’t even be 100% sure they didn’t use once or twice. Mike Piazza? Pedro? Jeff Kent? Bagwell? What if we put some of those guys in instead of Bonds or ARod and then we find out ten years later they were on the juice also? Do they get removed? It's a mess. So IMO you throw out only those that you are sure whould not have made the hall without the juice. Sosa and Palmiero for sure, McGuire maybe. Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Glavine, Maddux, Thomas, Alomar and Pedro should all get in regardless.

It shouldn't be the job of HOF voters to sort the mess out, because we're never going to know for sure who did and who didn't use. The HOF should be based on what happened on the field.

We know Bonds, ARod, McGwire, Palmeiro and Manny did. Those players without a doubt should be banned from the HOF just on character issues. Their numbers post 1992 should be erased from the record books as well.

Yeah, that is just dumb. Bonds didn't even start allegedly using PEDs until 2000. In 1999 the Sporting News ranked him as the 34th greatest ever player, Bill James said he was the second best active player. Why the #### should we wipe out all those years? Because you don't like him? Because you started watching baseball in 2000? Because Philadelphia talk radio tells you that is logical? Your post should be erased from the internet.

We've done a pretty good job of erasing Pete Rose.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

But Buster Olney and others have to sit back and look at the big picture and consider that if they keep Bonds or Clemens out, then no one should get in. Maybe Greg Maddux, but other than him I think we have to reasonably assume that a majority of players were on PEDs in this era. Is it unfair to Alan Trammell and Bert Blyleven? Sure. Is it unfair to Edgar Martinez, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell and Barry Larkin? Dunno, do we know they never used? I mean besides Frank Thomas and Greg Maddux there are a lot of question marks and we can’t even be 100% sure they didn’t use once or twice. Mike Piazza? Pedro? Jeff Kent? Bagwell? What if we put some of those guys in instead of Bonds or ARod and then we find out ten years later they were on the juice also? Do they get removed? It's a mess. So IMO you throw out only those that you are sure whould not have made the hall without the juice. Sosa and Palmiero for sure, McGuire maybe. Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Glavine, Maddux, Thomas, Alomar and Pedro should all get in regardless.

It shouldn't be the job of HOF voters to sort the mess out, because we're never going to know for sure who did and who didn't use. The HOF should be based on what happened on the field.

We know Bonds, ARod, McGwire, Palmeiro and Manny did. Those players without a doubt should be banned from the HOF just on character issues. Their numbers post 1992 should be erased from the record books as well.

Yeah, that is just dumb. Bonds didn't even start allegedly using PEDs until 2000. In 1999 the Sporting News ranked him as the 34th greatest ever player, Bill James said he was the second best active player. Why the #### should we wipe out all those years? Because you don't like him? Because you started watching baseball in 2000? Because Philadelphia talk radio tells you that is logical? Your post should be erased from the internet.

We've done a pretty good job of erasing Pete Rose.

Pete Rose should be in but PEDs><gambling

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

Are you even that sure that Maddux didn't?

We can't be certain he didn't use, but with his skillset, it's doubtful that he benefited much from it. He didn't have much a fastball, and I doubt there are any PEDs out there that enhance pitch placement.

This is completely wrong. 2MPH on his fastball is a bigger deal than on somebody who throws 95.