Californians, let's design the new government of your forthcoming republic (1 Viewer)

[roadkill1292]

No, it's probably not gonna happen but your state is probably closer to secession than anyone else has been for 160 years and you might one day have the chance to start from scratch and do better than the country did the first time around.. So let's take this downtime and build your new federal government. How much of the US constitution would you want to emulate? What can you do better? Multi-house congress/parliament? Strong executive branch? Will your SC judges still be lifetime appointments?

What about your elections? Still gonna let the majority party gerrymander the state (Cali actually does a pretty good job at re-districting now, imo the best of all of us) or would you consider some sort of proportionate voting like some of the western European countries do?

Maybe Washingtonians and Oregonians should chip in with comments, too, since they might consider joining the new Republic of Pacifica. Heck, Nevadans and Arizonans, come on down, we'll make it Greater New Mexico in honor of the hispanic majority in the new nation.

If you wish to crap all over this thread with "it'll never happen," feel free but I will consider you a boring poster if you do.

 

[wikkidpissah]

Humboldt County doesnt get to vote on anything

 

[dkp993]

Humboldt County doesnt get to vote on anything

Do we really want to piss off that County? They “grow” and “provide” a lot for this state.

 

[roadkill1292]

I'm guessing that Humboldt is in the conservative part of the republic but I also bet that it has a sizable number of liberal voters. You might want to consider having multi-member districts and proportional voting in the new nation.

 

[timschochet]

Nevada has to come along because we need their water. We don’t need their people. 

I would propose a military occupation of Nevada followed by a forced eviction east of the bulk of their population. 

 

[roadkill1292]

Nevada has to come along because we need their water. We don’t need their people. 

I would propose a military occupation of Nevada followed by a forced eviction east of the bulk of their population. 

You need a government first. Are you going to have an executive who is a commander-in-chief or is your Prime Minister going to name a Defense Minister to run the invasion?

This thread isn't really about policy. Besides, you can probably sweet talk Nevada into coming along to join your new Hispanic majority nation.

 

[Quint]

Nevada has to come along because we need their water. We don’t need their people. 

I would propose a military occupation of Nevada followed by a forced eviction east of the bulk of their population. 

New CA doesn't need Nevada's water. just turn the spigot on in Stockton and the Central Valley has their supply, and a couple of desalinization plants off Manhattan Beach and Carlsbad takes are of SoCal and LoCal. easy-peasy. 

 

[lakerstan]

Nevada has to come along because we need their water. We don’t need their people. 

I would propose a military occupation of Nevada followed by a forced eviction east of the bulk of their population. 

You realize that most of “their people” are Californians visiting for the weekend or longer...   I am a Californian that has just stayed in Vegas for 21 years. 

 

[dkp993]

and a couple of desalinization plants off Manhattan Beach and Carlsbad takes are of SoCal and LoCal. easy-peasy. 

If it were that easy we’d be doing it by now.  Last I read desalination is not a viable option at this point due to cost.  

 

[Quint]

If it were that easy we’d be doing it by now.  Last I read desalination is not a viable option at this point due to cost.  

i think it's more NIMBY, but cost is something to consider. still less than the military occupation of Nevada. 

 

[Mile High]

Nevada has to come along because we need their water. We don’t need their people. 

I would propose a military occupation of Nevada followed by a forced eviction east of the bulk of their population. 

Where does Nevada get its water from? 

 

[Da Guru]

Jerry Brown would be the  POC.  Perfect age bracket.

 

[kface]

It really is high time we just split the country into three separate country....cascadia, the northeast and the rest.  There is no way out of the mess we are in now and these regions are constantly screwed by the politics of this country

 

[parasaurolophus]

Where does Nevada get its water from? 

I thought nevada was kind of screwed too. Isn't lake mead at all time lows?

 

[The Future Champs]

No, it's probably not gonna happen but your state is probably closer to secession than anyone else has been for 160 years and you might one day have the chance to start from scratch and do better than the country did the first time around.. So let's take this downtime and build your new federal government. How much of the US constitution would you want to emulate? What can you do better? Multi-house congress/parliament? Strong executive branch? Will your SC judges still be lifetime appointments?

What about your elections? Still gonna let the majority party gerrymander the state (Cali actually does a pretty good job at re-districting now, imo the best of all of us) or would you consider some sort of proportionate voting like some of the western European countries do?

Maybe Washingtonians and Oregonians should chip in with comments, too, since they might consider joining the new Republic of Pacifica. Heck, Nevadans and Arizonans, come on down, we'll make it Greater New Mexico in honor of the hispanic majority in the new nation.

If you wish to crap all over this thread with "it'll never happen," feel free but I will consider you a boring poster if you do.

Going to need to divide California into multiple states before we join you.   And maybe we can get BC to join, particularly if Alberta gets all separatist as well.

 

[Stealthycat]

is something wrong with the way CA is going ???

 

[kface]

Going to need to divide California into multiple states before we join you.   And maybe we can get BC to join, particularly if Alberta gets all separatist as well.

Cascadia...the whole west coast.  It would easily be the best country on the planet

 

[roadkill1292]

Going to need to divide California into multiple states before we join you.   And maybe we can get BC to join, particularly if Alberta gets all separatist as well.

Your new nation will have a population of less than 50 million, about half that of Germany's. Why have states at all? A republic of semi-autonomous states is so eighteenth century.

 

[roadkill1292]

I understand that water is an important issue for you westies but in a couple of decades you may have the opportunity to utilize centuries of accumulated knowledge to form the world's greatest functioning democracy and we future citizens of Atlantica will be watching what you come up with as a template for our own new government. Do I have to do all the thinking for you nimrods? (imagine me saying that in Otis's voice)

You'll have a Head of State, elected by the general population for a 10-year one time term. His powers will be extremely limited, roughly similar to a king in a constitutional monarchy.

The nation will be divided into election districts of 500,000-1 million each, with each district sending five representatives to the House of Reps. Single transferable voting will be used and elections can be called at anytime (no less frequently than five years) with a campaign period of 3-6 weeks (limits the big money influence).

The second half of Congress/Parliament will be the House of Sortition. Each district will hold an annual lottery from interested citizens and pick 20 candidates by chance. Those candidates undergo a voir dire process during which the elected members of each district can eliminate one candidate each and nominate a candidate of their own. A final lottery is held among the remaining 20 candidates to serve a once in a lifetime term of five years.

Both houses of congress can introduce legislation with passage needing a simple majority vote from both houses. All legislation is to have a sundown provision so inertia and special interests have lesser chances of allowing outdated legislation remain on the books.

Your Supreme Court will consist of nine judges appointed for 18 year terms, with one term ending at every two year interval.

Do it better. I'm all ears.

 

[roadkill1292]

Forgot one. When re-districting becomes necessary from population changes, the new maps will be drawn by staff interns of the party with the fewest sitting members of Congress. That's how important the process becomes when you have the right election system.

 

[The Future Champs]

Forgot one. When re-districting becomes necessary from population changes, the new maps will be drawn by staff interns of the party with the fewest sitting members of Congress. That's how important the process becomes when you have the right election system.

Every party that gets at least 1% of the vote is allowed to submit a redistricting map.   The winning map will be chosen by the following criteria: first, the map with the most number of balanced districts, based on the most recent election.   In case of a tie, the second consideration shall be the simplest map, with simplicity defined as the lowest total length of district boundaries.

 

[OrtonToOlsen]

Hey...with all due respect...please keep the word “California” out of a lot of your mouths.

 

[dozer]

Hey...with all due respect...please keep the word “California” out of a lot of your mouths.

What part of Hollywood are you from?

 

[OrtonToOlsen]

What part of Hollywood are you from?

East Hollywood

 

[dkp993]

is something wrong with the way CA is going ???

Nope

 

[-fish-]

Washington, Oregon, California and a purchase of Baja from Mexico to form a new country.  If you don't have a coastline, who needs you.  

Let Hawaii become a sovereign country again and open trade immediately.   

 

[roadkill1292]

Every party that gets at least 1% of the vote is allowed to submit a redistricting map.   The winning map will be chosen by the following criteria: first, the map with the most number of balanced districts, based on the most recent election.   In case of a tie, the second consideration shall be the simplest map, with simplicity defined as the lowest total length of district boundaries.

Your first proposal is an interesting idea, though I'd change the participation criteria to "every party with at least one seat in the House." But I'm unsure how you'd quantify "balanced." Some sort of standard deviation analysis? How does that work with multi-member districts with possible multi-party representation?

The computer analysis drawing up districts based on the lowest total borders around the districts is one I like a lot. How long does it take a computer to process those trillions, or maybe more, computations? Not that time is that big a deal, if it takes a couple of days for the computer to grind out the answer, no problem. We actually debated that very idea in another thread a couple of years ago and I'm ashamed to say that Rayderr and I, who have actually met IRL, got into a horrific argument about it and ended up saying hurtful things to one another. I shouldn't have said what I did but the process seems like a no-brainer to me.

Multi-member districts is actually part of a plan recently introduced in our current House but it angers me that even Democrats have been slow to get behind it. It's a classic case of self-interest overriding the public benefits.

 

[rockaction]

Every once in a while somebody from the left or right comes up with the "dream" scenario of CA or TX, respectively, leaving the union and committing to its own self-governance. Lefties always dream of the "freedom" of CA, righties of the "freedom" of TX.

Seems no different here. An intellectual exercise for sure. For a state that can't even meet its own pension liabilities and is constantly running debts and deficits the country barely dreams of.

But, typical is as typical does.

 

[jon_mx]

I'm guessing that Humboldt is in the conservative part of the republic but I also bet that it has a sizable number of liberal voters. You might want to consider having multi-member districts and proportional voting in the new nation.

Humboldt has the biggest weed growing hippie population in the country.  

 

[rockaction]

Humboldt has the biggest weed growing hippie population in the country.  

Politics:

Humboldt County is in California's 2nd congressional district, represented by Democrat Jared Huffman.[62]

In the state legislature, Humboldt is part of the 2nd Senate District, represented by Democrat Mike McGuire,[63] and the 2nd Assembly District, represented by Democrat Jim Wood.[64]

Election audits in the county since 2008 have used a distinctive system which has not spread elsewhere. They scan all ballots and release a file of the images with a digital signature, so candidates and the public can recount by hand or electronically to find if the official totals are correct. The first time they did this they found the official software omitted 200 ballots.[65][66][67][68]

 

[roadkill1292]

We also haven't discussed a bill of rights, citizenship requirements, voting eligibility and the process for amending the constitution, all huge issues. C'mon, if this thing happens, you've got to have this stuff organized. Will Pacifica have a Second Amendment equivalent?

 

[dkp993]

I understand that water is an important issue for you westies but in a couple of decades you may have the opportunity to utilize centuries of accumulated knowledge to form the world's greatest functioning democracy and we future citizens of Atlantica will be watching what you come up with as a template for our own new government. Do I have to do all the thinking for you nimrods? (imagine me saying that in Otis's voice)

You'll have a Head of State, elected by the general population for a 10-year one time term. His powers will be extremely limited, roughly similar to a king in a constitutional monarchy.

The nation will be divided into election districts of 500,000-1 million each, with each district sending five representatives to the House of Reps. Single transferable voting will be used and elections can be called at anytime (no less frequently than five years) with a campaign period of 3-6 weeks (limits the big money influence).

The second half of Congress/Parliament will be the House of Sortition. Each district will hold an annual lottery from interested citizens and pick 20 candidates by chance. Those candidates undergo a voir dire process during which the elected members of each district can eliminate one candidate each and nominate a candidate of their own. A final lottery is held among the remaining 20 candidates to serve a once in a lifetime term of five years.

Both houses of congress can introduce legislation with passage needing a simple majority vote from both houses. All legislation is to have a sundown provision so inertia and special interests have lesser chances of allowing outdated legislation remain on the books.

Your Supreme Court will consist of nine judges appointed for 18 year terms, with one term ending at every two year interval.

Do it better. I'm all ears.

I’m simultaneously impressed with this post (the well thought out fun BS nature of it) and depressed that the lockdown has given me the time to read it.  

 

[The Future Champs]

Your first proposal is an interesting idea, though I'd change the participation criteria to "every party with at least one seat in the House." But I'm unsure how you'd quantify "balanced." Some sort of standard deviation analysis? How does that work with multi-member districts with possible multi-party representation?

The computer analysis drawing up districts based on the lowest total borders around the districts is one I like a lot. How long does it take a computer to process those trillions, or maybe more, computations? Not that time is that big a deal, if it takes a couple of days for the computer to grind out the answer, no problem. We actually debated that very idea in another thread a couple of years ago and I'm ashamed to say that Rayderr and I, who have actually met IRL, got into a horrific argument about it and ended up saying hurtful things to one another. I shouldn't have said what I did but the process seems like a no-brainer to me.

Multi-member districts is actually part of a plan recently introduced in our current House but it angers me that even Democrats have been slow to get behind it. It's a classic case of self-interest overriding the public benefits.

1% of the vote was chosen to allow and encourage the participation of (hopefully) nonpartisan groups in the process.   For example, if there was a minor political party that was dedicated to producing a balanced voting map, and they ran a candidate to State dogcatcher, I’d vote for them.

The balanced districts is critical, b/c Congress is screwed due to the large number of one party districts.   “Balanced ” is defined by (roughly) equal numbers of voters (based on the previous election) in the two largest parties in the district.  
 

Without the balanced districts requirement, but including the lowest total length of borders, produces a result similar to what we see today: urban areas isolated from rural areas, with the suburbs playing the critical role of kingmaker in a few swing districts.    The rural/urban split is exacerbated by having so many one party districts, which is something I’m trying to avoid.

 

[roadkill1292]

1% of the vote was chosen to allow and encourage the participation of (hopefully) nonpartisan groups in the process.   For example, if there was a minor political party that was dedicated to producing a balanced voting map, and they ran a candidate to State dogcatcher, I’d vote for them.

The balanced districts is critical, b/c Congress is screwed due to the large number of one party districts.   “Balanced ” is defined by (roughly) equal numbers of voters (based on the previous election) in the two largest parties in the district.  
 

Without the balanced districts requirement, but including the lowest total length of borders, produces a result similar to what we see today: urban areas isolated from rural areas, with the suburbs playing the critical role of kingmaker in a few swing districts.    The rural/urban split is exacerbated by having so many one party districts, which is something I’m trying to avoid.

Thanks for those explanations. But they appear to be based on single member districting like we have now in the country at large. My proposal for California (and for Atlantica, too; I'm thinking about getting together a small gang of easterners to convene a constitutional convention here) is for multi-member districts that will prevent the kind of urban-rural, conservative-liberal  divides we have today by the very nature of first past the post elections (and single member districts). If a district has 20% of one party's partisans, it would normally get one of the five representatives.

 

[The Future Champs]

Thanks for those explanations. But they appear to be based on single member districting like we have now in the country at large. My proposal for California (and for Atlantica, too; I'm thinking about getting together a small gang of easterners to convene a constitutional convention here) is for multi-member districts that will prevent the kind of urban-rural, conservative-liberal  divides we have today by the very nature of first past the post elections (and single member districts). If a district has 20% of one party's partisans, it would normally get one of the five representatives.

That’s going to be a lot of representatives, and there won’t be as great an incentive on them to work together and compromise.   If you know that your district is 80% square party and 20% circle party, and you’re the rep for the circle party, then you’re going 100% nonstop circle party, and probably doing your best to make obnoxious headlines whilst doing so.  

 

[The Future Champs]

Washington, Oregon, California and a purchase of Baja from Mexico to form a new country.  

Which cartel controls Baja, will they sell it, and will they leave once it’s been sold?   Otherwise, screw that.

 

[roadkill1292]

That’s going to be a lot of representatives, and there won’t be as great an incentive on them to work together and compromise.   If you know that your district is 80% square party and 20% circle party, and you’re the rep for the circle party, then you’re going 100% nonstop circle party, and probably doing your best to make obnoxious headlines whilst doing so.  

If there are 75 districts (one for about every 500,000 residents) a multi-member H of R would have 375 congresscritters, which isn't an unworkably large number for conducting the business of a modern nation like Pacifica. It's not only a definitive stop sign to gerrymandering but it also mirrors the democracies of western Europe, which seem to function quite nicely in general with less-than-majority parties working together to get things done.

I don't know if you could legislate this but I also would change the method of nominating candidates. Instead of letting anyone run, parties should consider "standing" candidates. Then maybe a party would be judged more by its legislative performance than by how much money their candidates can raise. Maybe the crap-stirrers wouldn't get much of a nibble at a nomination.

 

[The Future Champs]

If there are 75 districts (one for about every 500,000 residents) a multi-member H of R would have 375 congresscritters, which isn't an unworkably large number for conducting the business of a modern nation like Pacifica. It's not only a definitive stop sign to gerrymandering but it also mirrors the democracies of western Europe, which seem to function quite nicely in general with less-than-majority parties working together to get things done.

I don't know if you could legislate this but I also would change the method of nominating candidates. Instead of letting anyone run, parties should consider "standing" candidates. Then maybe a party would be judged more by its legislative performance than by how much money their candidates can raise. Maybe the crap-stirrers wouldn't get much of a nibble at a nomination.

The real question with your proposal is: will viable third parties emerge?   If we continue to elect a head executive, then probably not.

 

[roadkill1292]

The real question with your proposal is: will viable third parties emerge?   If we continue to elect a head executive, then probably not.

Single transferable voting is a godsend to third parties. In a five-member district, the threshhold for obtaining a seat is one-sixth plus one vote. And because STV calls for second and third placed balloting, it makes it less likely that a voter will fear "throwing away" his vote on a third party.

I've just pretty much outlined Rep. Don Beyer's Fair Representation Act. Urge your rep to support it and end the two party tyranny.

 

[Apple Jack]

Nevada has to come along because we need their water. We don’t need their people. 

I would propose a military occupation of Nevada followed by a forced eviction east of the bulk of their population. 

Taking Nevada doesn't get you the water. In fact, Las Vegas probably dies in a secession. That water comes from CO and UT. Even WY. That's 'murican water.

 

[The Future Champs]

Nevada has to come along because we need their water. We don’t need their people. 

I would propose a military occupation of Nevada followed by a forced eviction east of the bulk of their population. 

If you people would just quit wasting water on lawns and golf courses you’d be a lot less water stressed.  Jfc, I live in the rainy great northwest, and almost no one waters their lawn.  Our summers are very dry, everyone’s lawn dies, and that’s just how it is.

 

[rockaction]

If you people would just quit wasting water on lawns and golf courses you’d be a lot less water stressed.  Jfc, I live in the rainy great northwest, and almost no one waters their lawn.  Our summers are very dry, everyone’s lawn dies, and that’s just how it is.

I liked this, but the property value hinges on there being lots and private houses on the golf course. Can't have it any other way.

The lawns is a no-brainer, though. Let it die.

 

[huthut]

I think CA should outlaw lawns, with maybe an exception to the northern most counties that might get enough rain. Also, not to make it a regional competition discussion, but in the bay area during the most recent drought almost every lawn I saw was dead or replaced with fake lawn. I visited SoCal and there were WAY more emerald green pristine lawns. It makes it seem kind of pointless without a full ban.