Calvin Johnson (1 Viewer)

[SproutDaddy]

Did you just want everyone to come here and agree with you?

As if I need anyone to agree with me. Me feelings aren't going to change. I'm happy that you are getting amusement out of this though. It sure took you long enough to find that, didn't it. At least I know you're reading this.

 

[LBH]

to the people that are pointing to CJ2's situation. I think you are over analyzing the situation. Calvin is the type of WR that could help Stanton or Orlovsky become the next DA. It's not too hard to fathom as both have had flashes. The Lions D is awful and will continue to be awful so they will be forced to play catch up. There are a lot of signs pointing towards more targets for Calvin. He will produce with an increase in targets regardless of who is throwing him the ball. The Cardinals never had a great QB or OL, but Boldin and Fitzgerald's value have stayed consistently high the past couple years and may be lower now with the 1st round pick Leinart expected to be the franchise QB.

Fitz and Boldin have been catching passes from a former NFL MVP, even if he's a little past his prime its not like Warner is some nobody.

It's true. Plus look at Moss in Oakland or Steve Smith without Delhomme. A bad QB is a bad QB. Even the best WR can't overcome a QB that sucks. Kitna doesn't suck but he is a barely average QB. You can talk about some of his decent stats and toughness but at the end of the day he has a noodle arm and throws more picks than TD's. I'm hoping Stanton turns out to be the real deal. He definitely has a better arm but so far the rest of his game looks questionable.

Kitna made Chad Johnson and Joey Galloway look good. Roy Williams has had a good year with him. I think that team will be better off without Martz. Im guessing that more targets will go to Roy and CJ, with less going to the slot

 

[SmoovySmoov]

Did you just want everyone to come here and agree with you?

As if I need anyone to agree with me.

Then why start not one but two threads about it on a board where you constantly talk about the majority of the posters being ignorant towards football, and then call the ones who disagree with you delusional?

 

[loose circuits]

to the people that are pointing to CJ2's situation. I think you are over analyzing the situation. Calvin is the type of WR that could help Stanton or Orlovsky become the next DA. It's not too hard to fathom as both have had flashes. The Lions D is awful and will continue to be awful so they will be forced to play catch up. There are a lot of signs pointing towards more targets for Calvin. He will produce with an increase in targets regardless of who is throwing him the ball. The Cardinals never had a great QB or OL, but Boldin and Fitzgerald's value have stayed consistently high the past couple years and may be lower now with the 1st round pick Leinart expected to be the franchise QB.

Fitz and Boldin have been catching passes from a former NFL MVP, even if he's a little past his prime its not like Warner is some nobody.

you must have missed the 6 games in 2005 (Fitz's breakout season) where Josh McClown was the QB. Or 2003 when Boldin broke out with Jeff Blake at the helm....and the key behind evaluating Warner is "former NFL MVP" The same guy that got benched for Eli in New York and ran out of town?..not like Warner is even a resemblance of his former self. Fitz and Boldin are what make him decent IMO just as Roy/CJ2/Furrey would do for any Lion QB

I guess it comes down to whether or not you think CJ2 can make an average QB look very good. I personally think he is that type of guy and I am not worried one bit about his limited numbers from last year. He barely played prior to his back injury and made plays whenever he got in the game. Then the back injury put a halt on his development. I see big things in 2008 and think he will be a bargain as around the 20th WR taken off the board in redrafts...

 

[mozzy84]

to the people that are pointing to CJ2's situation. I think you are over analyzing the situation. Calvin is the type of WR that could help Stanton or Orlovsky become the next DA. It's not too hard to fathom as both have had flashes. The Lions D is awful and will continue to be awful so they will be forced to play catch up. There are a lot of signs pointing towards more targets for Calvin. He will produce with an increase in targets regardless of who is throwing him the ball. The Cardinals never had a great QB or OL, but Boldin and Fitzgerald's value have stayed consistently high the past couple years and may be lower now with the 1st round pick Leinart expected to be the franchise QB.

Fitz and Boldin have been catching passes from a former NFL MVP, even if he's a little past his prime its not like Warner is some nobody.

you must have missed the 6 games in 2005 (Fitz's breakout season) where Josh McClown was the QB. Or 2003 when Boldin broke out with Jeff Blake at the helm....and the key behind evaluating Warner is "former NFL MVP" The same guy that got benched for Eli in New York and ran out of town?..not like Warner is even a resemblance of his former self. Fitz and Boldin are what make him decent IMO just as Roy/CJ2/Furrey would do for any Lion QB

I guess it comes down to whether or not you think CJ2 can make an average QB look very good. I personally think he is that type of guy and I am not worried one bit about his limited numbers from last year. He barely played prior to his back injury and made plays whenever he got in the game. Then the back injury put a halt on his development. I see big things in 2008 and think he will be a bargain as around the 20th WR taken off the board in redrafts...

I think some people are forgetting this or are just choosing to ignore it, the guy was pretty banged up for alot of the year. I wish I had him, and would much much rather have him than holmes in a dynasty league.

 

[jurb26]

to the people that are pointing to CJ2's situation. I think you are over analyzing the situation. Calvin is the type of WR that could help Stanton or Orlovsky become the next DA. It's not too hard to fathom as both have had flashes. The Lions D is awful and will continue to be awful so they will be forced to play catch up. There are a lot of signs pointing towards more targets for Calvin. He will produce with an increase in targets regardless of who is throwing him the ball. The Cardinals never had a great QB or OL, but Boldin and Fitzgerald's value have stayed consistently high the past couple years and may be lower now with the 1st round pick Leinart expected to be the franchise QB.

Fitz and Boldin have been catching passes from a former NFL MVP, even if he's a little past his prime its not like Warner is some nobody.

you must have missed the 6 games in 2005 (Fitz's breakout season) where Josh McClown was the QB. Or 2003 when Boldin broke out with Jeff Blake at the helm....and the key behind evaluating Warner is "former NFL MVP" The same guy that got benched for Eli in New York and ran out of town?..not like Warner is even a resemblance of his former self. Fitz and Boldin are what make him decent IMO just as Roy/CJ2/Furrey would do for any Lion QB

I guess it comes down to whether or not you think CJ2 can make an average QB look very good. I personally think he is that type of guy and I am not worried one bit about his limited numbers from last year. He barely played prior to his back injury and made plays whenever he got in the game. Then the back injury put a halt on his development. I see big things in 2008 and think he will be a bargain as around the 20th WR taken off the board in redrafts...

I think some people are forgetting this or are just choosing to ignore it, the guy was pretty banged up for alot of the year. I wish I had him, and would much much rather have him than holmes in a dynasty league.

People don't forget that he was banged up. People seem to forget that Holmes was more ganged up however and put up much better numbers.

 

[loose circuits]

to the people that are pointing to CJ2's situation. I think you are over analyzing the situation. Calvin is the type of WR that could help Stanton or Orlovsky become the next DA. It's not too hard to fathom as both have had flashes. The Lions D is awful and will continue to be awful so they will be forced to play catch up. There are a lot of signs pointing towards more targets for Calvin. He will produce with an increase in targets regardless of who is throwing him the ball. The Cardinals never had a great QB or OL, but Boldin and Fitzgerald's value have stayed consistently high the past couple years and may be lower now with the 1st round pick Leinart expected to be the franchise QB.

Fitz and Boldin have been catching passes from a former NFL MVP, even if he's a little past his prime its not like Warner is some nobody.

you must have missed the 6 games in 2005 (Fitz's breakout season) where Josh McClown was the QB. Or 2003 when Boldin broke out with Jeff Blake at the helm....and the key behind evaluating Warner is "former NFL MVP" The same guy that got benched for Eli in New York and ran out of town?..not like Warner is even a resemblance of his former self. Fitz and Boldin are what make him decent IMO just as Roy/CJ2/Furrey would do for any Lion QB

I guess it comes down to whether or not you think CJ2 can make an average QB look very good. I personally think he is that type of guy and I am not worried one bit about his limited numbers from last year. He barely played prior to his back injury and made plays whenever he got in the game. Then the back injury put a halt on his development. I see big things in 2008 and think he will be a bargain as around the 20th WR taken off the board in redrafts...

I think some people are forgetting this or are just choosing to ignore it, the guy was pretty banged up for alot of the year. I wish I had him, and would much much rather have him than holmes in a dynasty league.

People don't forget that he was banged up. People seem to forget that Holmes was more ganged up however and put up much better numbers.

did you see the catch where he broke his back? I am not sure you can assume that Holmes' injury was worse. In addition, I guess you must have missed the other guy who talked about how Calvin missed some camp time and was behind the 8-ball at the beginning of the season. How hard it is to get timing and adjust to the pro game while trying to learn a Martz offense on the fly? Seems like a tough chore for a rookie that is healthy let alone one that misses a lot of valuable practice time...

 

[jurb26]

to the people that are pointing to CJ2's situation. I think you are over analyzing the situation. Calvin is the type of WR that could help Stanton or Orlovsky become the next DA. It's not too hard to fathom as both have had flashes. The Lions D is awful and will continue to be awful so they will be forced to play catch up. There are a lot of signs pointing towards more targets for Calvin. He will produce with an increase in targets regardless of who is throwing him the ball. The Cardinals never had a great QB or OL, but Boldin and Fitzgerald's value have stayed consistently high the past couple years and may be lower now with the 1st round pick Leinart expected to be the franchise QB.

Fitz and Boldin have been catching passes from a former NFL MVP, even if he's a little past his prime its not like Warner is some nobody.

you must have missed the 6 games in 2005 (Fitz's breakout season) where Josh McClown was the QB. Or 2003 when Boldin broke out with Jeff Blake at the helm....and the key behind evaluating Warner is "former NFL MVP" The same guy that got benched for Eli in New York and ran out of town?..not like Warner is even a resemblance of his former self. Fitz and Boldin are what make him decent IMO just as Roy/CJ2/Furrey would do for any Lion QB

I guess it comes down to whether or not you think CJ2 can make an average QB look very good. I personally think he is that type of guy and I am not worried one bit about his limited numbers from last year. He barely played prior to his back injury and made plays whenever he got in the game. Then the back injury put a halt on his development. I see big things in 2008 and think he will be a bargain as around the 20th WR taken off the board in redrafts...

I think some people are forgetting this or are just choosing to ignore it, the guy was pretty banged up for alot of the year. I wish I had him, and would much much rather have him than holmes in a dynasty league.

People don't forget that he was banged up. People seem to forget that Holmes was more ganged up however and put up much better numbers.

did you see the catch where he broke his back? I am not sure you can assume that Holmes' injury was worse. In addition, I guess you must have missed the other guy who talked about how Calvin missed some camp time and was behind the 8-ball at the beginning of the season. How hard it is to get timing and adjust to the pro game while trying to learn a Martz offense on the fly? Seems like a tough chore for a rookie that is healthy let alone one that misses a lot of valuable practice time...

Holmes missed more playing time than Johnson. These things should all be a bit easier for the best WR prospect ever, no? You want to say that he is in another league than a guy like Holmes, well who's league is he in then. Boldin? Moss? Holmes rookie season was very comparable to that of Johnson's. His second year was nothing short of FANTASTIC. He amassed 950 yds and 8 TDs while only playing 13 games and battling injuries throughout the year. Had Johnson done this I'm sure you would all be going crazy....

 

[loose circuits]

to the people that are pointing to CJ2's situation. I think you are over analyzing the situation. Calvin is the type of WR that could help Stanton or Orlovsky become the next DA. It's not too hard to fathom as both have had flashes. The Lions D is awful and will continue to be awful so they will be forced to play catch up. There are a lot of signs pointing towards more targets for Calvin. He will produce with an increase in targets regardless of who is throwing him the ball. The Cardinals never had a great QB or OL, but Boldin and Fitzgerald's value have stayed consistently high the past couple years and may be lower now with the 1st round pick Leinart expected to be the franchise QB.

Fitz and Boldin have been catching passes from a former NFL MVP, even if he's a little past his prime its not like Warner is some nobody.

you must have missed the 6 games in 2005 (Fitz's breakout season) where Josh McClown was the QB. Or 2003 when Boldin broke out with Jeff Blake at the helm....and the key behind evaluating Warner is "former NFL MVP" The same guy that got benched for Eli in New York and ran out of town?..not like Warner is even a resemblance of his former self. Fitz and Boldin are what make him decent IMO just as Roy/CJ2/Furrey would do for any Lion QB

I guess it comes down to whether or not you think CJ2 can make an average QB look very good. I personally think he is that type of guy and I am not worried one bit about his limited numbers from last year. He barely played prior to his back injury and made plays whenever he got in the game. Then the back injury put a halt on his development. I see big things in 2008 and think he will be a bargain as around the 20th WR taken off the board in redrafts...

I think some people are forgetting this or are just choosing to ignore it, the guy was pretty banged up for alot of the year. I wish I had him, and would much much rather have him than holmes in a dynasty league.

People don't forget that he was banged up. People seem to forget that Holmes was more ganged up however and put up much better numbers.

did you see the catch where he broke his back? I am not sure you can assume that Holmes' injury was worse. In addition, I guess you must have missed the other guy who talked about how Calvin missed some camp time and was behind the 8-ball at the beginning of the season. How hard it is to get timing and adjust to the pro game while trying to learn a Martz offense on the fly? Seems like a tough chore for a rookie that is healthy let alone one that misses a lot of valuable practice time...

Holmes missed more playing time than Johnson. These things should all be a bit easier for the best WR prospect ever, no? You want to say that he is in another league than a guy like Holmes, well who's league is he in then. Boldin? Moss? Holmes rookie season was very comparable to that of Johnson's. His second year was nothing short of FANTASTIC. He amassed 950 yds and 8 TDs while only playing 13 games and battling injuries throughout the year. Had Johnson done this I'm sure you would all be going crazy....

you are comparing apples and oranges when you look at the numbers. Holmes was in his 2nd year in the same offense (Arians was promoted from WR coach) and had all offseason to work with Ben. Much different situations. Feel free to trade CJ2 for Holmes, have at it...There aren't too many WR's that I would move for Calvin if you have a young team that can sustain. However, if you need to win this year some of the veteran guys could be better options. I like the comparison to Fitz and that potential is what drives the value I put on CJ understanding the mitigating circumstances that caused his mediocre production last year. Sure, Holmes was better last year, but I am looking at 2008 and beyond.

 

[SproutDaddy]

Did you just want everyone to come here and agree with you?

As if I need anyone to agree with me.

Then why start not one but two threads about it on a board where you constantly talk about the majority of the posters being ignorant towards football, and then call the ones who disagree with you delusional?

Classy you are I must say. Regardless, you share the same opinion I do about Calvin's value, and you wouldn't trade him for the same offer. And just because you throw a temper tantrum doesn't mean it helps the situation.

 

[TaxMan]

to the people that are pointing to CJ2's situation. I think you are over analyzing the situation. Calvin is the type of WR that could help Stanton or Orlovsky become the next DA. It's not too hard to fathom as both have had flashes. The Lions D is awful and will continue to be awful so they will be forced to play catch up. There are a lot of signs pointing towards more targets for Calvin. He will produce with an increase in targets regardless of who is throwing him the ball. The Cardinals never had a great QB or OL, but Boldin and Fitzgerald's value have stayed consistently high the past couple years and may be lower now with the 1st round pick Leinart expected to be the franchise QB.

Fitz and Boldin have been catching passes from a former NFL MVP, even if he's a little past his prime its not like Warner is some nobody.

you must have missed the 6 games in 2005 (Fitz's breakout season) where Josh McClown was the QB. Or 2003 when Boldin broke out with Jeff Blake at the helm....and the key behind evaluating Warner is "former NFL MVP" The same guy that got benched for Eli in New York and ran out of town?..not like Warner is even a resemblance of his former self. Fitz and Boldin are what make him decent IMO just as Roy/CJ2/Furrey would do for any Lion QB

I guess it comes down to whether or not you think CJ2 can make an average QB look very good. I personally think he is that type of guy and I am not worried one bit about his limited numbers from last year. He barely played prior to his back injury and made plays whenever he got in the game. Then the back injury put a halt on his development. I see big things in 2008 and think he will be a bargain as around the 20th WR taken off the board in redrafts...

I think some people are forgetting this or are just choosing to ignore it, the guy was pretty banged up for alot of the year. I wish I had him, and would much much rather have him than holmes in a dynasty league.

People don't forget that he was banged up. People seem to forget that Holmes was more ganged up however and put up much better numbers.

did you see the catch where he broke his back? I am not sure you can assume that Holmes' injury was worse. In addition, I guess you must have missed the other guy who talked about how Calvin missed some camp time and was behind the 8-ball at the beginning of the season. How hard it is to get timing and adjust to the pro game while trying to learn a Martz offense on the fly? Seems like a tough chore for a rookie that is healthy let alone one that misses a lot of valuable practice time...

Holmes missed more playing time than Johnson. These things should all be a bit easier for the best WR prospect ever, no? You want to say that he is in another league than a guy like Holmes, well who's league is he in then. Boldin? Moss? Holmes rookie season was very comparable to that of Johnson's. His second year was nothing short of FANTASTIC. He amassed 950 yds and 8 TDs while only playing 13 games and battling injuries throughout the year. Had Johnson done this I'm sure you would all be going crazy....

you are comparing apples and oranges when you look at the numbers. Holmes was in his 2nd year in the same offense (Arians was promoted from WR coach) and had all offseason to work with Ben. Much different situations. Feel free to trade CJ2 for Holmes, have at it...There aren't too many WR's that I would move for Calvin if you have a young team that can sustain. However, if you need to win this year some of the veteran guys could be better options. I like the comparison to Fitz and that potential is what drives the value I put on CJ understanding the mitigating circumstances that caused his mediocre production last year. Sure, Holmes was better last year, but I am looking at 2008 and beyond.

this is basically the argument for Calvin Johnson supporters. you can't compare Calvin's rookie year numbers to Holmes 2nd season or 1st season. it's like comparing Lee Evans 3rd year to Braylon Edwards 2nd year - no doubter Lee Evans. But Braylon is the better talent IMO (and yeah i drafted Braylon ahead of Evans in a startup dynasty 2 years ago). what we're comparing is what they will become once both guys are in their prime. And it's Calvin Johnson for me no doubt.

 

[travdogg]

to the people that are pointing to CJ2's situation. I think you are over analyzing the situation. Calvin is the type of WR that could help Stanton or Orlovsky become the next DA. It's not too hard to fathom as both have had flashes. The Lions D is awful and will continue to be awful so they will be forced to play catch up. There are a lot of signs pointing towards more targets for Calvin. He will produce with an increase in targets regardless of who is throwing him the ball. The Cardinals never had a great QB or OL, but Boldin and Fitzgerald's value have stayed consistently high the past couple years and may be lower now with the 1st round pick Leinart expected to be the franchise QB.

Fitz and Boldin have been catching passes from a former NFL MVP, even if he's a little past his prime its not like Warner is some nobody.

...and the key behind evaluating Warner is "former NFL MVP" The same guy that got benched for Eli in New York and ran out of town?..not like Warner is even a resemblance of his former self. Fitz and Boldin are what make him decent IMO just as Roy/CJ2/Furrey would do for any Lion QB

Getting benched for Eli somehow means Warner is a bum. Eli Manning was the most sought after rookie QB this decade and has 3 playoff appearances and a super bowl in only his 4th season. Name 5 QB's with a better resume than that.For the record I don't think Roy/Calvin/Furrey are close to as talented as Fitz/Boldin/Johnson were.

Also, why do people think Martz leaving is a good thing? Yes there will be more of a focus on the top 2 WR's but there will also be at least 100 fewer pass attempts. Again, I don't dislike Calvin, but his hype is worth more than his production and it seems like you can get young top-10 WR's right now for him.

 

[Nugget]

Calvin will be a stud. He had a rough rookie season. He signed late, was injured, and had a very limited snap count. He was the best WR in college football in 2006 with the worst college QB I've ever seen. Reggie Ball completed less than 45% of his passes, yet Calvin still won the Biletnikoff Award. He is the real deal. He should be available straight up for rookie pick 2-3, or a combo of a top 15-20 WR and mid level 1st. In a startup dynasty, I'd guess he'd go around pick 30. Based on the comments in this thread, throw an offer out, some are not high on him. I'm going to be making some offers based on these comments.

 

[Ripleys]

going back to the original thread's question, I'd say a gagillion dollars, or in other words, 10 Jerry Rices' in his prime.

I love me some Calvin, top 5 WR for the next decade starting this year.

 

[jurb26]

to the people that are pointing to CJ2's situation. I think you are over analyzing the situation. Calvin is the type of WR that could help Stanton or Orlovsky become the next DA. It's not too hard to fathom as both have had flashes. The Lions D is awful and will continue to be awful so they will be forced to play catch up. There are a lot of signs pointing towards more targets for Calvin. He will produce with an increase in targets regardless of who is throwing him the ball. The Cardinals never had a great QB or OL, but Boldin and Fitzgerald's value have stayed consistently high the past couple years and may be lower now with the 1st round pick Leinart expected to be the franchise QB.

Fitz and Boldin have been catching passes from a former NFL MVP, even if he's a little past his prime its not like Warner is some nobody.

you must have missed the 6 games in 2005 (Fitz's breakout season) where Josh McClown was the QB. Or 2003 when Boldin broke out with Jeff Blake at the helm....and the key behind evaluating Warner is "former NFL MVP" The same guy that got benched for Eli in New York and ran out of town?..not like Warner is even a resemblance of his former self. Fitz and Boldin are what make him decent IMO just as Roy/CJ2/Furrey would do for any Lion QB

I guess it comes down to whether or not you think CJ2 can make an average QB look very good. I personally think he is that type of guy and I am not worried one bit about his limited numbers from last year. He barely played prior to his back injury and made plays whenever he got in the game. Then the back injury put a halt on his development. I see big things in 2008 and think he will be a bargain as around the 20th WR taken off the board in redrafts...

I think some people are forgetting this or are just choosing to ignore it, the guy was pretty banged up for alot of the year. I wish I had him, and would much much rather have him than holmes in a dynasty league.

People don't forget that he was banged up. People seem to forget that Holmes was more ganged up however and put up much better numbers.

did you see the catch where he broke his back? I am not sure you can assume that Holmes' injury was worse. In addition, I guess you must have missed the other guy who talked about how Calvin missed some camp time and was behind the 8-ball at the beginning of the season. How hard it is to get timing and adjust to the pro game while trying to learn a Martz offense on the fly? Seems like a tough chore for a rookie that is healthy let alone one that misses a lot of valuable practice time...

Holmes missed more playing time than Johnson. These things should all be a bit easier for the best WR prospect ever, no? You want to say that he is in another league than a guy like Holmes, well who's league is he in then. Boldin? Moss? Holmes rookie season was very comparable to that of Johnson's. His second year was nothing short of FANTASTIC. He amassed 950 yds and 8 TDs while only playing 13 games and battling injuries throughout the year. Had Johnson done this I'm sure you would all be going crazy....

you are comparing apples and oranges when you look at the numbers. Holmes was in his 2nd year in the same offense (Arians was promoted from WR coach) and had all offseason to work with Ben. Much different situations. Feel free to trade CJ2 for Holmes, have at it...There aren't too many WR's that I would move for Calvin if you have a young team that can sustain. However, if you need to win this year some of the veteran guys could be better options. I like the comparison to Fitz and that potential is what drives the value I put on CJ understanding the mitigating circumstances that caused his mediocre production last year. Sure, Holmes was better last year, but I am looking at 2008 and beyond.

Of course we are comparing apples to oranges. You guys have given us no other choice. To you there is no apparent equal to CJ. Again, I'm not the one clamoring that this guy is the best WR prospect ever. Even still, that wasn't the point. How many times do I have to point to the fact that Holmes had amazingly similar rookie year numbers as CJ? Are you just ignoring that on purpose or what? Furthermore, the point was that if CJ has a 2nd year like Holmes had, I'm sure you guys will all be pounding on how great he is. Holmes does it and it's pretty much brushed under the rug because he wasn't as hyped? Looking at 2008, I would rather comfortably say that Holmes is going to have a better year. Beyond, who knows.

 

[treat88]

Of course we are comparing apples to oranges. You guys have given us no other choice. To you there is no apparent equal to CJ. Again, I'm not the one clamoring that this guy is the best WR prospect ever. Even still, that wasn't the point. How many times do I have to point to the fact that Holmes had amazingly similar rookie year numbers as CJ? Are you just ignoring that on purpose or what? Furthermore, the point was that if CJ has a 2nd year like Holmes had, I'm sure you guys will all be pounding on how great he is. Holmes does it and it's pretty much brushed under the rug because he wasn't as hyped? Looking at 2008, I would rather comfortably say that Holmes is going to have a better year. Beyond, who knows.

No one is questioning the fact that Holmes and CJ's rookie years are comparable statistically. They were remarkably similar.The question lies in whether that similarity makes them comparable in terms of future production. I don't think it does.If Calvin's second year is not significantly better than Holmes second year, personally I will be extremely disappointed.In fact, if Calvin's second year is not better than Holmes 3rd I will be very disappointed.

 

[gianmarco]

Here is the problem with some of the Holmes' supporters arguments. You're wanting to wait and see if CJ lives up to the hype. Well, uh, it's too late when that happens. Anyone can look at Edwards now, for example, and say "yeah, he's a stud" after what he did this past year. It's the ones that saw it beforehand that got him at a great value.

I'm not saying Holmes isn't going to be a solid WR because I think he will. And I think he has the tools to do it for a while. But there is no way his talent level is comparable to CJ2. This is the last chance you can get CJ2 at a reduced price. You can write that down. There's "hype" for some players, and then there's true bona fide hype for a reason. CJ2 has it all. If you don't believe in him, that's fine, but don't point at the fact that Holmes equaled CJ's rookie year and had a great 2nd season as a reason why he's worth more. I would believe that argument a little bit more if those things were said BEFORE his stats in his 2nd year.

Anyone can look back and see who the studs are. It's trying to figure them out before it happens that's tricky. CJ2 is a great bet to be that guy.

 

[jurb26]

Of course we are comparing apples to oranges. You guys have given us no other choice. To you there is no apparent equal to CJ. Again, I'm not the one clamoring that this guy is the best WR prospect ever. Even still, that wasn't the point. How many times do I have to point to the fact that Holmes had amazingly similar rookie year numbers as CJ? Are you just ignoring that on purpose or what? Furthermore, the point was that if CJ has a 2nd year like Holmes had, I'm sure you guys will all be pounding on how great he is. Holmes does it and it's pretty much brushed under the rug because he wasn't as hyped? Looking at 2008, I would rather comfortably say that Holmes is going to have a better year. Beyond, who knows.

No one is questioning the fact that Holmes and CJ's rookie years are comparable statistically. They were remarkably similar.The question lies in whether that similarity makes them comparable in terms of future production. I don't think it does.If Calvin's second year is not significantly better than Holmes second year, personally I will be extremely disappointed.In fact, if Calvin's second year is not better than Holmes 3rd I will be very disappointed.

Then you've set the bar far to high for CJ IMO. Just like people last year in the spotlight thread, the expectations are far too high for this guy. Holmes averaged 72 yards and 0.61 TDs per game last year. I don't care how good you think he is, not many WRs will go for 1152/10 next year.

 

[treat88]

Then you've set the bar far to high for CJ IMO. Just like people last year in the spotlight thread, the expectations are far too high for this guy. Holmes averaged 72 yards and 0.61 TDs per game last year. I don't care how good you think he is, not many WRs will go for 1152/10 next year.

I don't think Holmes will go for that either.I hope I'm wrong. I bleed black and gold.

 

[loose circuits]

to the people that are pointing to CJ2's situation. I think you are over analyzing the situation. Calvin is the type of WR that could help Stanton or Orlovsky become the next DA. It's not too hard to fathom as both have had flashes. The Lions D is awful and will continue to be awful so they will be forced to play catch up. There are a lot of signs pointing towards more targets for Calvin. He will produce with an increase in targets regardless of who is throwing him the ball. The Cardinals never had a great QB or OL, but Boldin and Fitzgerald's value have stayed consistently high the past couple years and may be lower now with the 1st round pick Leinart expected to be the franchise QB.

Fitz and Boldin have been catching passes from a former NFL MVP, even if he's a little past his prime its not like Warner is some nobody.

...and the key behind evaluating Warner is "former NFL MVP" The same guy that got benched for Eli in New York and ran out of town?..not like Warner is even a resemblance of his former self. Fitz and Boldin are what make him decent IMO just as Roy/CJ2/Furrey would do for any Lion QB

Getting benched for Eli somehow means Warner is a bum. Eli Manning was the most sought after rookie QB this decade and has 3 playoff appearances and a super bowl in only his 4th season. Name 5 QB's with a better resume than that.For the record I don't think Roy/Calvin/Furrey are close to as talented as Fitz/Boldin/Johnson were.

Also, why do people think Martz leaving is a good thing? Yes there will be more of a focus on the top 2 WR's but there will also be at least 100 fewer pass attempts. Again, I don't dislike Calvin, but his hype is worth more than his production and it seems like you can get young top-10 WR's right now for him.

No, but Warner's #'s that he put up prior to joining up with Fitz/Boldin seem to indicate he was on a decline. So you don't think Warner's career has benefited from Fitz and Boldin the past few years? He's an elite QB? Is that what you are selling me?I think Roy=Boldin, Calvin can be as good as Fitz, and Furrey is light years ahead of Johnson. Throw in McDonald and you have a better WR group.

Calvin is untradable for my team. I would have to be blown away and see his value definitely on par with a top 10 WR.

 

[DropKick]

This is a dynasty league, so I'm thinking about the future here. I know everyone, including myself, expected bigger numbers from him last year, but look at that team. He is going to be something special. Holmes doesn't impress me. I don't even like him that much. If I acquired him, I'd probably turn right around and get rid of him.The point is I don't want to trade Calvin. Therefore, if he is that hard up for him then do what it takes to get him. His team is much better than mine, so I have needs to fill. Holmes and a top 5 is far from too much from a dynasty perspective.

It doesn't really matter what YOU think. A player's trade value is determined by the consensus, and not one man's opinion. So while YOU might think Calvin is worth Holmes and a top 5 pick, the consensus says there won't be a lot of owners interested in making that deal with you. It sounds like you're extremely high on Calvin. You're unlikely to find an owner who places a similar value on him, so you should probably just keep him.

The other owner obviously is as high on him as I am or he wouldn't be throwing a fit to get him. So, just since he wants him I should give him to him for what he believes he is worth? UH, NO!! Whenever I've wanted something from another owner, yeah I low ball him. In the end I end up paying more than my original offer. That's how it goes. How can I be blamed for trying to better my team? Is my demands pricey? Yes................unfair? Far from it!

I hear ya... If its such a great deal he is offering.. why is he offering it? Sounds like obsession to me.I'd keep CJ... still think he has #1 potential.

 

[loose circuits]

to the people that are pointing to CJ2's situation. I think you are over analyzing the situation. Calvin is the type of WR that could help Stanton or Orlovsky become the next DA. It's not too hard to fathom as both have had flashes. The Lions D is awful and will continue to be awful so they will be forced to play catch up. There are a lot of signs pointing towards more targets for Calvin. He will produce with an increase in targets regardless of who is throwing him the ball. The Cardinals never had a great QB or OL, but Boldin and Fitzgerald's value have stayed consistently high the past couple years and may be lower now with the 1st round pick Leinart expected to be the franchise QB.

Fitz and Boldin have been catching passes from a former NFL MVP, even if he's a little past his prime its not like Warner is some nobody.

you must have missed the 6 games in 2005 (Fitz's breakout season) where Josh McClown was the QB. Or 2003 when Boldin broke out with Jeff Blake at the helm....and the key behind evaluating Warner is "former NFL MVP" The same guy that got benched for Eli in New York and ran out of town?..not like Warner is even a resemblance of his former self. Fitz and Boldin are what make him decent IMO just as Roy/CJ2/Furrey would do for any Lion QB

I guess it comes down to whether or not you think CJ2 can make an average QB look very good. I personally think he is that type of guy and I am not worried one bit about his limited numbers from last year. He barely played prior to his back injury and made plays whenever he got in the game. Then the back injury put a halt on his development. I see big things in 2008 and think he will be a bargain as around the 20th WR taken off the board in redrafts...

I think some people are forgetting this or are just choosing to ignore it, the guy was pretty banged up for alot of the year. I wish I had him, and would much much rather have him than holmes in a dynasty league.

People don't forget that he was banged up. People seem to forget that Holmes was more ganged up however and put up much better numbers.

did you see the catch where he broke his back? I am not sure you can assume that Holmes' injury was worse. In addition, I guess you must have missed the other guy who talked about how Calvin missed some camp time and was behind the 8-ball at the beginning of the season. How hard it is to get timing and adjust to the pro game while trying to learn a Martz offense on the fly? Seems like a tough chore for a rookie that is healthy let alone one that misses a lot of valuable practice time...

Holmes missed more playing time than Johnson. These things should all be a bit easier for the best WR prospect ever, no? You want to say that he is in another league than a guy like Holmes, well who's league is he in then. Boldin? Moss? Holmes rookie season was very comparable to that of Johnson's. His second year was nothing short of FANTASTIC. He amassed 950 yds and 8 TDs while only playing 13 games and battling injuries throughout the year. Had Johnson done this I'm sure you would all be going crazy....

you are comparing apples and oranges when you look at the numbers. Holmes was in his 2nd year in the same offense (Arians was promoted from WR coach) and had all offseason to work with Ben. Much different situations. Feel free to trade CJ2 for Holmes, have at it...There aren't too many WR's that I would move for Calvin if you have a young team that can sustain. However, if you need to win this year some of the veteran guys could be better options. I like the comparison to Fitz and that potential is what drives the value I put on CJ understanding the mitigating circumstances that caused his mediocre production last year. Sure, Holmes was better last year, but I am looking at 2008 and beyond.

Of course we are comparing apples to oranges. You guys have given us no other choice. To you there is no apparent equal to CJ. Again, I'm not the one clamoring that this guy is the best WR prospect ever. Even still, that wasn't the point. How many times do I have to point to the fact that Holmes had amazingly similar rookie year numbers as CJ? Are you just ignoring that on purpose or what? Furthermore, the point was that if CJ has a 2nd year like Holmes had, I'm sure you guys will all be pounding on how great he is. Holmes does it and it's pretty much brushed under the rug because he wasn't as hyped? Looking at 2008, I would rather comfortably say that Holmes is going to have a better year. Beyond, who knows.

I don't care about Calvin's production in 2007. I've already listed the reasons why it was mediocre. Holmes did not have to fight threw those same circumstances (injury, limited camp time, complex offense, limited reps with 1st team O, etc...) No doubt in my mind had Calvin not broke his back on that amazing catch that he would have blown Holmes' rookie numbers away. Holmes was not the #4 WR on his team during his rookie year. Calvin's healthy games were before he was involved much in the offense. I watched closely and most 3 WR sets were McDonald, Furrey, and Roy...

 

[loose circuits]

Here is the problem with some of the Holmes' supporters arguments. You're wanting to wait and see if CJ lives up to the hype. Well, uh, it's too late when that happens. Anyone can look at Edwards now, for example, and say "yeah, he's a stud" after what he did this past year. It's the ones that saw it beforehand that got him at a great value.I'm not saying Holmes isn't going to be a solid WR because I think he will. And I think he has the tools to do it for a while. But there is no way his talent level is comparable to CJ2. This is the last chance you can get CJ2 at a reduced price. You can write that down. There's "hype" for some players, and then there's true bona fide hype for a reason. CJ2 has it all. If you don't believe in him, that's fine, but don't point at the fact that Holmes equaled CJ's rookie year and had a great 2nd season as a reason why he's worth more. I would believe that argument a little bit more if those things were said BEFORE his stats in his 2nd year.Anyone can look back and see who the studs are. It's trying to figure them out before it happens that's tricky. CJ2 is a great bet to be that guy.

this deserves one of these:

 

[FUBAR]

to the people that are pointing to CJ2's situation. I think you are over analyzing the situation. Calvin is the type of WR that could help Stanton or Orlovsky become the next DA. It's not too hard to fathom as both have had flashes. The Lions D is awful and will continue to be awful so they will be forced to play catch up. There are a lot of signs pointing towards more targets for Calvin. He will produce with an increase in targets regardless of who is throwing him the ball. The Cardinals never had a great QB or OL, but Boldin and Fitzgerald's value have stayed consistently high the past couple years and may be lower now with the 1st round pick Leinart expected to be the franchise QB.

Fitz and Boldin have been catching passes from a former NFL MVP, even if he's a little past his prime its not like Warner is some nobody.

you must have missed the 6 games in 2005 (Fitz's breakout season) where Josh McClown was the QB. Or 2003 when Boldin broke out with Jeff Blake at the helm....and the key behind evaluating Warner is "former NFL MVP" The same guy that got benched for Eli in New York and ran out of town?..not like Warner is even a resemblance of his former self. Fitz and Boldin are what make him decent IMO just as Roy/CJ2/Furrey would do for any Lion QB

I guess it comes down to whether or not you think CJ2 can make an average QB look very good. I personally think he is that type of guy and I am not worried one bit about his limited numbers from last year. He barely played prior to his back injury and made plays whenever he got in the game. Then the back injury put a halt on his development. I see big things in 2008 and think he will be a bargain as around the 20th WR taken off the board in redrafts...

I think some people are forgetting this or are just choosing to ignore it, the guy was pretty banged up for alot of the year. I wish I had him, and would much much rather have him than holmes in a dynasty league.

People don't forget that he was banged up. People seem to forget that Holmes was more ganged up however and put up much better numbers.

did you see the catch where he broke his back? I am not sure you can assume that Holmes' injury was worse. In addition, I guess you must have missed the other guy who talked about how Calvin missed some camp time and was behind the 8-ball at the beginning of the season. How hard it is to get timing and adjust to the pro game while trying to learn a Martz offense on the fly? Seems like a tough chore for a rookie that is healthy let alone one that misses a lot of valuable practice time...

Holmes missed more playing time than Johnson. These things should all be a bit easier for the best WR prospect ever, no? You want to say that he is in another league than a guy like Holmes, well who's league is he in then. Boldin? Moss? Holmes rookie season was very comparable to that of Johnson's. His second year was nothing short of FANTASTIC. He amassed 950 yds and 8 TDs while only playing 13 games and battling injuries throughout the year. Had Johnson done this I'm sure you would all be going crazy....

you are comparing apples and oranges when you look at the numbers. Holmes was in his 2nd year in the same offense (Arians was promoted from WR coach) and had all offseason to work with Ben. Much different situations. Feel free to trade CJ2 for Holmes, have at it...There aren't too many WR's that I would move for Calvin if you have a young team that can sustain. However, if you need to win this year some of the veteran guys could be better options. I like the comparison to Fitz and that potential is what drives the value I put on CJ understanding the mitigating circumstances that caused his mediocre production last year. Sure, Holmes was better last year, but I am looking at 2008 and beyond.

Of course we are comparing apples to oranges. You guys have given us no other choice. To you there is no apparent equal to CJ. Again, I'm not the one clamoring that this guy is the best WR prospect ever. Even still, that wasn't the point. How many times do I have to point to the fact that Holmes had amazingly similar rookie year numbers as CJ? Are you just ignoring that on purpose or what? Furthermore, the point was that if CJ has a 2nd year like Holmes had, I'm sure you guys will all be pounding on how great he is. Holmes does it and it's pretty much brushed under the rug because he wasn't as hyped? Looking at 2008, I would rather comfortably say that Holmes is going to have a better year. Beyond, who knows.

I don't care about Calvin's production in 2007. I've already listed the reasons why it was mediocre. Holmes did not have to fight threw those same circumstances (injury, limited camp time, complex offense, limited reps with 1st team O, etc...) No doubt in my mind had Calvin not broke his back on that amazing catch that he would have blown Holmes' rookie numbers away. Holmes was not the #4 WR on his team during his rookie year. Calvin's healthy games were before he was involved much in the offense. I watched closely and most 3 WR sets were McDonald, Furrey, and Roy...

ok, so this guy who sits behind McDonald and Furrey is the best WR prospect ever?

 

[travdogg]

Holmes was not the #4 WR on his team during his rookie year. Calvin's healthy games were before he was involved much in the offense. I watched closely and most 3 WR sets were McDonald, Furrey, and Roy...

This statement isn't really true. Holmes was the WR4 for about 25% of his rookie year and only moved into the starting lineup when Ward got hurt in late November.

I'm starting to think the problem isn't so much Calvin being overrated(not by everyone at least) the problem is Holmes is vastly underrated(by almost everyone.)

Also, someone said Roy=Boldin, Calvin could equal Fitz and Furrey is far greater than Bryant Johnson. The only one of those statements I can agree with is the 1st one. I will go on record and say Calvin isn't as talented as Fitz, he's bigger and faster but Fitz has an excellent feel for the game and thats more important. As for Furrey/Johnson, I firmly believe we'll never hear from Mike Furrey again because Mike Martz is busy with new WR's that he'll make productive(not so new in Bruce's case.)

 

[Smizzy]

I've offered 1.7 and 2.3 and no bite.

 

[Jedimaster21]

When I look through this thread, one thing becomes obvious. The fact that we are comparing Santonio Holmes to one of the best WR prospects ever is a good thing for Holmes owners. Both are great players to have...Calvin just has upside that Holmes doesn't.

 

[loose circuits]

ok, so this guy who sits behind McDonald and Furrey is the best WR prospect ever?

guess you missed the part that mention Calvin missed camp and was behind the 8 ball with the playbook so they only used him in certain packages...doesn't mean Furrey and McDonald were Martz's boys who knew the offense. The plan was for Calvin to learn on the fly, but the injury halted that...

 

[loose circuits]

Also, someone said Roy=Boldin, Calvin could equal Fitz and Furrey is far greater than Bryant Johnson. The only one of those statements I can agree with is the 1st one. I will go on record and say Calvin isn't as talented as Fitz, he's bigger and faster but Fitz has an excellent feel for the game and thats more important. As for Furrey/Johnson, I firmly believe we'll never hear from Mike Furrey again because Mike Martz is busy with new WR's that he'll make productive(not so new in Bruce's case.)

Furrey will still be a productive slot guy if he gets the targets. Their production is not even close...I'd much rather have the crisp route running and solid hands of Mike Furrey.you base your judgement about Calvin's lack of feel for the game on what? Furthermore, I would have to assume that you don't give Furrey credit for his "feel" for the game. Who has better "feel" Furrey or Bryant Johnson?

 

[travdogg]

Also, someone said Roy=Boldin, Calvin could equal Fitz and Furrey is far greater than Bryant Johnson. The only one of those statements I can agree with is the 1st one. I will go on record and say Calvin isn't as talented as Fitz, he's bigger and faster but Fitz has an excellent feel for the game and thats more important. As for Furrey/Johnson, I firmly believe we'll never hear from Mike Furrey again because Mike Martz is busy with new WR's that he'll make productive(not so new in Bruce's case.)

Furrey will still be a productive slot guy if he gets the targets. Their production is not even close...I'd much rather have the crisp route running and solid hands of Mike Furrey.you base your judgement about Calvin's lack of feel for the game on what? Furthermore, I would have to assume that you don't give Furrey credit for his "feel" for the game. Who has better "feel" Furrey or Bryant Johnson?

I didn't say Calvin doesn't have a feel for the game. I said Fitz has an excellent one, maybe the best of any WR in the league despite his youth.Furrey has a good feel for the game but that's it, he won't be worth owning again in a fantasy league. We'll learn a lot about Johnson in San Fran this year, but I expect Johnson to be just as good as Furrey was with much more upside if a QB steps up.

 

[Anthony Borbely]

Calvin just has upside that Holmes doesn't.

 

[FUBAR]

ok, so this guy who sits behind McDonald and Furrey is the best WR prospect ever?

guess you missed the part that mention Calvin missed camp and was behind the 8 ball with the playbook so they only used him in certain packages...doesn't mean Furrey and McDonald were Martz's boys who knew the offense. The plan was for Calvin to learn on the fly, but the injury halted that...

no, I got it. one would think the best prospect EVER would learn faster and have such phenomenal skill that they wouldn't keep him behind 2 scrubs. Chuck Norris wouldn't have stayed on the bench.

 

[3nOut]

Isn't anyone else concerned about Roy Williams cutting into Calvin's numbers? I know many teams have/need two solid receivers (Moss/Welker, Harrison/Wayne, Chad/Housh, etc.) but I'd rather have the #1 WR on the team instead of the #1b or #2. I have Calvin and Moss in my keeper league where we can keep only one player per position. I really like Calvin's potential and I'd gladly move Moss for the right price and keep Calvin IF I knew he'd be Detroits #1. While Roy Williams is still there, I'm not sure I can take that risk. For now, it's back into the player pool for next year where I can hopefully get him back.

 

[shamrock84]

ok, so this guy who sits behind McDonald and Furrey is the best WR prospect ever?

guess you missed the part that mention Calvin missed camp and was behind the 8 ball with the playbook so they only used him in certain packages...doesn't mean Furrey and McDonald were Martz's boys who knew the offense. The plan was for Calvin to learn on the fly, but the injury halted that...

no, I got it. one would think the best prospect EVER would learn faster and have such phenomenal skill that they wouldn't keep him behind 2 scrubs. Chuck Norris wouldn't have stayed on the bench.

 

[treat88]

Isn't anyone else concerned about Roy Williams cutting into Calvin's numbers? I know many teams have/need two solid receivers (Moss/Welker, Harrison/Wayne, Chad/Housh, etc.) but I'd rather have the #1 WR on the team instead of the #1b or #2. I have Calvin and Moss in my keeper league where we can keep only one player per position. I really like Calvin's potential and I'd gladly move Moss for the right price and keep Calvin IF I knew he'd be Detroits #1. While Roy Williams is still there, I'm not sure I can take that risk. For now, it's back into the player pool for next year where I can hopefully get him back.

I would give good odds that Calvin is in line to be a #1 very shortly.Despite the public noise the Lions FO makes about keeping Roy, it's well known he wants out and will do what he can to get out.

I wouldn't be suprised to see him moved as soon as this year's draft.

 

[loose circuits]

ok, so this guy who sits behind McDonald and Furrey is the best WR prospect ever?

guess you missed the part that mention Calvin missed camp and was behind the 8 ball with the playbook so they only used him in certain packages...doesn't mean Furrey and McDonald were Martz's boys who knew the offense. The plan was for Calvin to learn on the fly, but the injury halted that...

no, I got it. one would think the best prospect EVER would learn faster and have such phenomenal skill that they wouldn't keep him behind 2 scrubs. Chuck Norris wouldn't have stayed on the bench.

yep, not even worth a response

 

[jurb26]

I'm starting to think the problem isn't so much Calvin being overrated(not by everyone at least) the problem is Holmes is vastly underrated(by almost everyone.)