Cam Bailing on that Fumble... (2 Viewers)

[Chaka]

Stewart: 989/6

Olsen: 1107/7

Ginn: 739/10

I've seen much worse offenses. MUCH.

How many of them played in Super Bowls?

And if Greg Olsen is your best weapon you have problems.

 

[Chaka]

Sure Jonathan Stewart was a first round pick about eight years and a dozen leg injuries ago.

Ted Ginn who is on his fifth team in 10 years, and scored 10 of his 21 career receiving TDs this season.

Are we really certain that we want to use draft position as the measure of NFL ability?

 

[Hawkeye21]

Sure Jonathan Stewart was a first round pick about eight years and a dozen leg injuries ago.

Ted Ginn who is on his fifth team in 10 years, and scored 10 of his 21 career receiving TDs this season.

Are we really certain that we want to use draft position as the measure of NFL ability?

Well, I wouldn't use Super Bowls either. There are a lot of worthless players that have SB rings.

 

[Sabertooth]

I think it's hard to say he didn't deserve the MVP no matter how much you hate him. Look at the crap talent around him and yet he managed to get them to the Super Bowl. I know their D was a huge part but that offense put up a lot of points. He deserved the MVP, still a moron though.

Media driven BS. Plenty of first round talent at skill positions and a solid O-line. Granted, the line fell apart in the Super Bowl, but they protected well over the course of the season.

You honestly believe that the Panthers have a lot of talent on offense? I see Cam, Olsen and Stewart who struggles to stay healthy most years. Benjamin is great but he didn't play this year. Funchess was not the answer. Ginn overachieved and still wasn't the answer.

If they keep that defense together and add to the offense with a healthy Benjamin, they will be tough to stop again next year.

Absolutely. Cam of course. They also have an offensive lineman that had an academy award winning movie made after him and 5 other offensive pro bowlers on the team right now. How is that not stacked? They have the best tight end in the NFC, second best in the NFL. They have the best fullback in the NFL. They have perhaps the best center in the NFL. You are too focused on the skill position guys (actually the wide receivers).

 

[Hawkeye21]

I think it's hard to say he didn't deserve the MVP no matter how much you hate him. Look at the crap talent around him and yet he managed to get them to the Super Bowl. I know their D was a huge part but that offense put up a lot of points. He deserved the MVP, still a moron though.

Media driven BS. Plenty of first round talent at skill positions and a solid O-line. Granted, the line fell apart in the Super Bowl, but they protected well over the course of the season.

You honestly believe that the Panthers have a lot of talent on offense? I see Cam, Olsen and Stewart who struggles to stay healthy most years. Benjamin is great but he didn't play this year. Funchess was not the answer. Ginn overachieved and still wasn't the answer.

If they keep that defense together and add to the offense with a healthy Benjamin, they will be tough to stop again next year.

Absolutely. Cam of course. They also have an offensive lineman that had an academy award winning movie made after him and 5 other offensive pro bowlers on the team right now. How is that not stacked? They have the best tight end in the NFC, second best in the NFL. They have the best fullback in the NFL. They have perhaps the best center in the NFL. You are too focused on the skill position guys (actually the wide receivers).

I don't think you are following along very well. This has nothing to do with the defense. The whole debate started with saying Cam deserved the MVP because he made it to the Super Bowl without any talent around him on offense. You can't use Oher just because they made a movie about him, he was on a different team in his prime too. Oher is considered an average OL now.

So, you can't use Cam, Benjamin or the defense in the argument.

Also, the WRs are really what the whole point is since that's who Cam has to throw to.

 

[Chaka]

I think it's hard to say he didn't deserve the MVP no matter how much you hate him. Look at the crap talent around him and yet he managed to get them to the Super Bowl. I know their D was a huge part but that offense put up a lot of points. He deserved the MVP, still a moron though.

Media driven BS. Plenty of first round talent at skill positions and a solid O-line. Granted, the line fell apart in the Super Bowl, but they protected well over the course of the season.

You honestly believe that the Panthers have a lot of talent on offense? I see Cam, Olsen and Stewart who struggles to stay healthy most years. Benjamin is great but he didn't play this year. Funchess was not the answer. Ginn overachieved and still wasn't the answer.

If they keep that defense together and add to the offense with a healthy Benjamin, they will be tough to stop again next year.

They have 5 1st rounders as starters on offense, not including Benjamin, by my count. A couple additional 2nd rounders on the O-line. That's not too bad.

Are they good though? I don't care if they are 1st and 2nd rounders. They are plenty of 1st and 2nd round players that absolutely suck. There are some that don't even make their team so using that as your criteria doesn't cut it.

Would the majority of the starters on the Panthers offense start on other teams? That would be one criteria to look at. Could also look at player rankings, that would be the most concrete evidence.

I may be completely wrong here the general consensus is that they did not have a lot of offensive talent on the offense.

In a word: yes. They're all better than good. After Marshawn Lynch, Stewart is the most talented player I've seen tote it in person at the college level. Kid is uber-talented and hasn't lost much because (luckily for him) his injuries haven't been severe. Ginn was always talented with amazing wheels, though soft. He's still that. Cam Newton is the third most talented and explosive runner on that team behind those two. Olsen I'd take after any TE not named Gronkowski. He should've been 1st team All Pro this season, IMHO. Oher is average these days, but has played great football at times. As I mentioned, the line, take as a whole, was well above average this year.And Cam is pretty damn good too.

ETA: Tolbert was 1st team All Pro. Most versatile FB in football still.

That is some ridiculous spin.

What Stewart and Ginn did in college is entirely irrelevant considering it was a decade ago. Stewart has played in 103 of 128 potential games, has had two heel injuries, four ankle injuries (requiring three surgeries), a knee and hamstring. And those are just the ones I could easily find. He was only able to start 41 of those games because he was never good enough to fully supplant DeAngelo Williams (28 of Stewart's starts came with DeAngelo injured and 13 came this year). That is seven years where his own team viewed him as the second best back on the team. In 2015 he averaged 4.1 YPC and 6.2 YPR which is meh and meh. At this stage Stewart is above average, at best.

Ginn? Seriously? He's fast in a straight line and that is all he has ever been. He's on his fifth team in 10 seasons and by some miracle he scored 10 of his 21 career receiving TDs this year. He also beat his career Y/R average by just under three yards. This season has fluke written all over it in huge bright neon letters. What defensive coordinator stays awake at night worrying about Ted Ginn (or Jonathan Stewart)?

Olsen is legit, no denying it and I am sure Chicago would love to have him back.

Oher is a career disappointment who has bounced from LT to RT every year because he isn't good enough to hold on to either of them. He is on his third team. No pro-bowls (and you would think the whole Blind Side thing would have won him at least one of those popularity contests) no all-pros. He has been mediocre to downright bad with maybe a couple game streak of above average play.

The best offensive players for Carolina are Cam, Olsen and Kalil. Everyone else is completely replaceable.

 

[Billy Bats]

The biggest problem I have is that he didn't seize the opportunity and admittedly didn't give max effort on Sunday. Now it makes you wonder what else he didn't do prior to the game to prepare.

Today he's saying "we will be back" yada yada. Nothing wrong with that, and being confident. BUT there's not one guarantee that he will ever be back in the super bowl. Problem lies that he's just assuming that he's going to go to more than one super bowl, I got news for ya Cam, it's not as easy as you may think it is. So this could've been your one and only chance to be crowned Champion, and you held back because you didn't ant to get hurt? That may come back to bite ya pal. Sunday should've been a wake up call that it's not that easy to win a SB, but t seems like that flew right over his head.

 

[Chaka]

The biggest problem I have is that he didn't seize the opportunity and admittedly didn't give max effort on Sunday. Now it makes you wonder what else he didn't do prior to the game to prepare.

Today he's saying "we will be back" yada yada. Nothing wrong with that, and being confident. BUT there's not one guarantee that he will ever be back in the super bowl. Problem lies that he's just assuming that he's going to go to more than one super bowl, I got news for ya Cam, it's not as easy as you may think it is. So this could've been your one and only chance to be crowned Champion, and you held back because you didn't ant to get hurt? That may come back to bite ya pal. Sunday should've been a wake up call that it's not that easy to win a SB, but t seems like that flew right over his head.

Have to agree for the most part.

I remember an interview with Dan Marino years ago where he commented that after getting to the SB in his second season he just assumed that he was going to play in multiple more before his career was over.

 

[CalBear]

I hope he never makes another post-season, then looks back in 10 years upon retiring and realizes how important that play was.

He'll probably never get another opportunity like this again and he bailed out like a clown.

1) It wasn't that important. A successful recovery would have resulted in a Carolina punt. Their probability of winning the game dropped from minuscule to infinitesimal.

2) Carolina is odds-on to be there next year. They'll still have a great defense, and they'll have Kelvin Benjamin back.

 

[MG345]

No way Carolina makes it back next year.

 

[Amused to Death]

I hope he never makes another post-season, then looks back in 10 years upon retiring and realizes how important that play was.

He'll probably never get another opportunity like this again and he bailed out like a clown.

1) It wasn't that important. A successful recovery would have resulted in a Carolina punt. Their probability of winning the game dropped from minuscule to infinitesimal.

2) Carolina is odds-on to be there next year. They'll still have a great defense, and they'll have Kelvin Benjamin back.

Disagree on both of these attempt to rationalize Cam's actions.

1) Not recovering the fumble changed the probability from a realistic chance at getting the ball back and mounting a game-winning TD drive to game over. However much they struggled to that point, they still only needed 1 scoring drive. There was still over 4 minutes left in the game holding all 3 of their timeouts.

2) Odds-on favorite is still no guarantee. And even if they did make it back, many of those players will be gone and possibly never have the chance to return. And even to be odds-on favorites as we sit here now, in February, who's to say Cam will remain healthy in 16? Or that the defense will play up to the same level as they did this year? Maybe if they do get back and lose again, the narrative might be "well at lease we played a full 60 minutes instead of giving up at 56."

No matter how you try to make seem like no big deal, Cam made a decision to keep himself healthy vs. selling out for his team.

 

[Neofight]

I think it's hard to say he didn't deserve the MVP no matter how much you hate him. Look at the crap talent around him and yet he managed to get them to the Super Bowl. I know their D was a huge part but that offense put up a lot of points. He deserved the MVP, still a moron though.

Media driven BS. Plenty of first round talent at skill positions and a solid O-line. Granted, the line fell apart in the Super Bowl, but they protected well over the course of the season.

You honestly believe that the Panthers have a lot of talent on offense? I see Cam, Olsen and Stewart who struggles to stay healthy most years. Benjamin is great but he didn't play this year. Funchess was not the answer. Ginn overachieved and still wasn't the answer.

If they keep that defense together and add to the offense with a healthy Benjamin, they will be tough to stop again next year.

They have 5 1st rounders as starters on offense, not including Benjamin, by my count. A couple additional 2nd rounders on the O-line. That's not too bad.

Are they good though? I don't care if they are 1st and 2nd rounders. They are plenty of 1st and 2nd round players that absolutely suck. There are some that don't even make their team so using that as your criteria doesn't cut it.

Would the majority of the starters on the Panthers offense start on other teams? That would be one criteria to look at. Could also look at player rankings, that would be the most concrete evidence.

I may be completely wrong here the general consensus is that they did not have a lot of offensive talent on the offense.

In a word: yes. They're all better than good. After Marshawn Lynch, Stewart is the most talented player I've seen tote it in person at the college level. Kid is uber-talented and hasn't lost much because (luckily for him) his injuries haven't been severe. Ginn was always talented with amazing wheels, though soft. He's still that. Cam Newton is the third most talented and explosive runner on that team behind those two. Olsen I'd take after any TE not named Gronkowski. He should've been 1st team All Pro this season, IMHO. Oher is average these days, but has played great football at times. As I mentioned, the line, take as a whole, was well above average this year.And Cam is pretty damn good too.

ETA: Tolbert was 1st team All Pro. Most versatile FB in football still.

That is some ridiculous spin.What Stewart and Ginn did in college is entirely irrelevant considering it was a decade ago. Stewart has played in 103 of 128 potential games, has had two heel injuries, four ankle injuries (requiring three surgeries), a knee and hamstring. And those are just the ones I could easily find. He was only able to start 41 of those games because he was never good enough to fully supplant DeAngelo Williams (28 of Stewart's starts came with DeAngelo injured and 13 came this year). That is seven years where his own team viewed him as the second best back on the team. In 2015 he averaged 4.1 YPC and 6.2 YPR which is meh and meh. At this stage Stewart is above average, at best.

Ginn? Seriously? He's fast in a straight line and that is all he has ever been. He's on his fifth team in 10 seasons and by some miracle he scored 10 of his 21 career receiving TDs this year. He also beat his career Y/R average by just under three yards. This season has fluke written all over it in huge bright neon letters. What defensive coordinator stays awake at night worrying about Ted Ginn (or Jonathan Stewart)?

Olsen is legit, no denying it and I am sure Chicago would love to have him back.

Oher is a career disappointment who has bounced from LT to RT every year because he isn't good enough to hold on to either of them. He is on his third team. No pro-bowls (and you would think the whole Blind Side thing would have won him at least one of those popularity contests) no all-pros. He has been mediocre to downright bad with maybe a couple game streak of above average play.

The best offensive players for Carolina are Cam, Olsen and Kalil. Everyone else is completely replaceable.

Look at the advanced metrics on Carolina's O-line. Kalil grades out as a top center (the best according to PFF) and the unit is top 5 overall. Carolina is a protect first offense, which is why guys like Philly Brown get open so often. People underrate Ginn because of his past, but he also gets open at will and is deadly in the return and run game.

Add to that an All Pro FB, All Pro TE, 2nd round rookie WR that showed signs of coming around late in the season and a RB who is still explosive and has been a top three RB in the NFC the last two years and you have more than most teams. Offensively, the Panthers aren't hurting, at all.

 

[Das Boot]

I hope he never makes another post-season, then looks back in 10 years upon retiring and realizes how important that play was.

He'll probably never get another opportunity like this again and he bailed out like a clown.

1) It wasn't that important. A successful recovery would have resulted in a Carolina punt. Their probability of winning the game dropped from minuscule to infinitesimal.

2) Carolina is odds-on to be there next year. They'll still have a great defense, and they'll have Kelvin Benjamin back.

Regarding having a chance to win a Superbowl, I'd dive on a fumble to get the chance back up to miniscule from infinitesimal.

 

[Neofight]

The idea that Cam has lost the team on any level is hilarious.

I think every single player on the team recognizes that they don't even sniff the Super Bowl with any other player lining up under center. They know that Cam drives that team and they love it.

Not sure why people don't like him so much. It started before the Super Bowl, it can't just be the celebrating, can it?

I think it's hard to say he didn't deserve the MVP no matter how much you hate him. Look at the crap talent around him and yet he managed to get them to the Super Bowl. I know their D was a huge part but that offense put up a lot of points. He deserved the MVP, still a moron though.

Media driven BS. Plenty of first round talent at skill positions and a solid O-line. Granted, the line fell apart in the Super Bowl, but they protected well over the course of the season.

You honestly believe that the Panthers have a lot of talent on offense? I see Cam, Olsen and Stewart who struggles to stay healthy most years. Benjamin is great but he didn't play this year. Funchess was not the answer. Ginn overachieved and still wasn't the answer.

If they keep that defense together and add to the offense with a healthy Benjamin, they will be tough to stop again next year.

They have 5 1st rounders as starters on offense, not including Benjamin, by my count. A couple additional 2nd rounders on the O-line. That's not too bad.

Are they good though? I don't care if they are 1st and 2nd rounders. They are plenty of 1st and 2nd round players that absolutely suck. There are some that don't even make their team so using that as your criteria doesn't cut it. Would the majority of the starters on the Panthers offense start on other teams? That would be one criteria to look at. Could also look at player rankings, that would be the most concrete evidence.

I may be completely wrong here the general consensus is that they did not have a lot of offensive talent on the offense.

In a word: yes. They're all better than good. After Marshawn Lynch, Stewart is the most talented player I've seen tote it in person at the college level. Kid is uber-talented and hasn't lost much because (luckily for him) his injuries haven't been severe. Ginn was always talented with amazing wheels, though soft. He's still that. Cam Newton is the third most talented and explosive runner on that team behind those two. Olsen I'd take after any TE not named Gronkowski. He should've been 1st team All Pro this season, IMHO. Oher is average these days, but has played great football at times. As I mentioned, the line, take as a whole, was well above average this year.And Cam is pretty damn good too.

ETA: Tolbert was 1st team All Pro. Most versatile FB in football still.

That is some ridiculous spin.What Stewart and Ginn did in college is entirely irrelevant considering it was a decade ago. Stewart has played in 103 of 128 potential games, has had two heel injuries, four ankle injuries (requiring three surgeries), a knee and hamstring. And those are just the ones I could easily find. He was only able to start 41 of those games because he was never good enough to fully supplant DeAngelo Williams (28 of Stewart's starts came with DeAngelo injured and 13 came this year). That is seven years where his own team viewed him as the second best back on the team. In 2015 he averaged 4.1 YPC and 6.2 YPR which is meh and meh. At this stage Stewart is above average, at best.

Ginn? Seriously? He's fast in a straight line and that is all he has ever been. He's on his fifth team in 10 seasons and by some miracle he scored 10 of his 21 career receiving TDs this year. He also beat his career Y/R average by just under three yards. This season has fluke written all over it in huge bright neon letters. What defensive coordinator stays awake at night worrying about Ted Ginn (or Jonathan Stewart)?

Olsen is legit, no denying it and I am sure Chicago would love to have him back.

Oher is a career disappointment who has bounced from LT to RT every year because he isn't good enough to hold on to either of them. He is on his third team. No pro-bowls (and you would think the whole Blind Side thing would have won him at least one of those popularity contests) no all-pros. He has been mediocre to downright bad with maybe a couple game streak of above average play.

The best offensive players for Carolina are Cam, Olsen and Kalil. Everyone else is completely replaceable.

Look at the advanced metrics on Carolina's O-line. Kalil grades out as a top center (the best according to PFF) and the unit is top 5 overall. Carolina is a protect first offense, which is why guys like Philly Brown get open so often. People underrate Ginn because of his past, but he also gets open at will and is deadly in the return and run game.

Add to that an All Pro FB, All Pro TE, 2nd round rookie WR that showed signs of coming around late in the season and a RB who is still explosive and has been a top three RB in the NFC the last two years and you have more than most teams. Offensively, the Panthers aren't hurting, at all.

Speaking of ridiculous spin..

 

[Chaka]

Speaking of ridiculous spin..

You're gonna hurt your shoulder if you keep reaching like that.

"...[Ginn] also gets open at will"

"...the unit is top 5 overall"

Wow.

 

[Neofight]

Speaking of ridiculous spin..

You're gonna hurt your shoulder if you keep reaching like that."...[Ginn] also gets open at will"

"...the unit is top 5 overall"

Wow.

Watch the film.

 

[jabarony]

I hope he never makes another post-season, then looks back in 10 years upon retiring and realizes how important that play was.

He'll probably never get another opportunity like this again and he bailed out like a clown.

1) It wasn't that important. A successful recovery would have resulted in a Carolina punt. Their probability of winning the game dropped from minuscule to infinitesimal.

2) Carolina is odds-on to be there next year. They'll still have a great defense, and they'll have Kelvin Benjamin back.

2) What are the odds? I'll take the field.

 

[Neofight]

Carolina offensive line #2 overall, according to PFF: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/01/20/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-this-season/

 

[Soulfly3]

Does Carolina have that cake walk schedule again next season?

 

[moleculo]

If your team leader isn't willing to sacrifice his body to recover a fumble with the Superbowl on the line, why would you risk injury to recover a fumble in a regular game? Or to extend to catch a high pass? Fight for the extra yard?

Players will publicly say they support Cam, and they will. But, its gonna be hard to erase the memory of Cam bailing.

It's not good.

 

[Sabertooth]

I think it's hard to say he didn't deserve the MVP no matter how much you hate him. Look at the crap talent around him and yet he managed to get them to the Super Bowl. I know their D was a huge part but that offense put up a lot of points. He deserved the MVP, still a moron though.

Media driven BS. Plenty of first round talent at skill positions and a solid O-line. Granted, the line fell apart in the Super Bowl, but they protected well over the course of the season.

You honestly believe that the Panthers have a lot of talent on offense? I see Cam, Olsen and Stewart who struggles to stay healthy most years. Benjamin is great but he didn't play this year. Funchess was not the answer. Ginn overachieved and still wasn't the answer.

If they keep that defense together and add to the offense with a healthy Benjamin, they will be tough to stop again next year.

Absolutely. Cam of course. They also have an offensive lineman that had an academy award winning movie made after him and 5 other offensive pro bowlers on the team right now. How is that not stacked? They have the best tight end in the NFC, second best in the NFL. They have the best fullback in the NFL. They have perhaps the best center in the NFL. You are too focused on the skill position guys (actually the wide receivers).

I don't think you are following along very well. This has nothing to do with the defense. The whole debate started with saying Cam deserved the MVP because he made it to the Super Bowl without any talent around him on offense. You can't use Oher just because they made a movie about him, he was on a different team in his prime too. Oher is considered an average OL now.

So, you can't use Cam, Benjamin or the defense in the argument.

Also, the WRs are really what the whole point is since that's who Cam has to throw to.

No sir, it is you who aren't following.

The Panthers defense was the top turnover getting defense in the NFL. This is part of the reason the Panthers were to top scoring offense despite only being 11th in yardage. The defense matters quite a bit.

Oher might not be great. He isn't bad though. This offensive line, with him anchoring....wait for it....the Blind Side, ranked 2nd in the NFL according to pro football focus. It is stated in their rankings that Oher's shortcomings generally came in the run game and he was solid in the pass game.

Greg Olsen is great. He's a borderline Hall of Famer (and borderline is being generous)...he's elite. Discounting his stats and contribution is just silly.

Cam doesn't have good wideouts. Can't (and didn't) argue that point.

Tolbert is an excellent fullback and Jonathan Stewart is a very good back when healthy.

So did the Panthers have a lot of talent on offense? Umm....yeah...yeah they did.

 

[Sabertooth]

Does Carolina have that cake walk schedule again next season?

Nope, Packers get the cake walk next year. With Jordy back. Buh bye Emo Superman

 

[Franknbeans]

Didn't really have an opinion on Cam either way before this game but I don't know how anyone can defend him. His lack of sportsmanship, while all too common in today's athletes, is embarassing.

 

[daveR]

I was wondering... If it was Denver who had the ball stripped, would Manning have dived on it? Would you feel the same if he had stood there like Cam did?

 

[daveR]

Could it be that Cam was ordered by the Panthers to keep himself healthy at all costs? He IS that valuable.

 

[daveR]

Going into the game, there was discussion locally about his showboating. Some people liked it, some didn't. I kinda view it as immature & lacking integrity, which are traits that can be exploited. My $.02

 

[Sabertooth]

Could it be that Cam was ordered by the Panthers to keep himself healthy at all costs? He IS that valuable.

Which is silly because he hasn't got the hardware. And most likely won't.

 

[Toomuchnv]

Could it be that Cam was ordered by the Panthers to keep himself healthy at all costs? He IS that valuable.

You really believe that? Lmao....

 

[Neofight]

Ron Rivera was on Mike Florio's show today and replied that he thought Cam altered course to try and recover the rebound (which was obviously BS). Then Cam said he didn't want to risk injury by contorting his leg, which was likely also (to some degree) BS.

So not only did Cam chose flight, but he hung his coach out to dry when Rivera tried to cover for him. Obviously they didn't talk about sticking to the script during that exit interview.

 

[daveR]

Could it be that Cam was ordered by the Panthers to keep himself healthy at all costs? He IS that valuable.

You really believe that? Lmao....

Oh, hell yeah! He is the face of that franchise & league MVP. You don't think there's money in that???

 

[ConstruxBoy]

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/164018348/cam-newton-debate-character-race

Gonna peg most you as Release guys. Just recognize that there are Escape people too. Less arguments that way.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/164018348/cam-newton-debate-character-race

Gonna peg most you as Release guys. Just recognize that there are Escape people too. Less arguments that way.

Just know that some of the fishermen here are catch and release guys while others fish for the escape.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Man, some people really misunderstand discussions. The original comment made about the Panthers offense had to do about why Cam deserved the MVP. He deserved it because of how well he performed even though the talent around him was sub par.

This has nothing to do with the defense as we all know it was fantastic. It doesn't take an NFL expert to know that the Panthers had average to below average talent on the offense this year. Cam had Stewart and Olsen for major weapons. Ginn did well but is not considered a main threat or WR1. The rest of the WRs are all average to below average. They have a good fullback but no one cares. You put any of those WRs on another team and they either don't start or they just suck. I really believe Cam made them look better than really are.

If you think different it's most likely because you are a Panthers fan.

 

[Neofight]

Man, some people really misunderstand discussions. The original comment made about the Panthers offense had to do about why Cam deserved the MVP. He deserved it because of how well he performed even though the talent around him was sub par.

This has nothing to do with the defense as we all know it was fantastic. It doesn't take an NFL expert to know that the Panthers had average to below average talent on the offense this year. Cam had Stewart and Olsen for major weapons. Ginn did well but is not considered a main threat or WR1. The rest of the WRs are all average to below average. They have a good fullback but no one cares. You put any of those WRs on another team and they either don't start or they just suck. I really believe Cam made them look better than really are.

If you think different it's most likely because you are a Panthers fan.

Start by reframing the argument. How many starting QB's lined up with 3 All Pros and a top 5 OL throughout the season?P.S. Seattle runs with a bunch of undrafted FA's and a 3rd round midget that most thought would only contribute on ST at WR. Plenty of teams could find room for a Ginn, Funchess and even Brown.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Man, some people really misunderstand discussions. The original comment made about the Panthers offense had to do about why Cam deserved the MVP. He deserved it because of how well he performed even though the talent around him was sub par.

This has nothing to do with the defense as we all know it was fantastic. It doesn't take an NFL expert to know that the Panthers had average to below average talent on the offense this year. Cam had Stewart and Olsen for major weapons. Ginn did well but is not considered a main threat or WR1. The rest of the WRs are all average to below average. They have a good fullback but no one cares. You put any of those WRs on another team and they either don't start or they just suck. I really believe Cam made them look better than really are.

If you think different it's most likely because you are a Panthers fan.

Start by reframing the argument. How many starting QB's lined up with 3 All Pros and a top 5 OL throughout the season?

The point is he didn't have any. Most playoff teams have a solid WR1 and a good WR2 some even have two solid WRs and then have a TE. Cam only had Olsen. If he had Benjamin it's a different story. Usually your TE is not your top receiver even if they are great.

I'm not sure why anyone feels the need to defend the talent on the offense. I'm pointing out the fact that they will be even better on offense next near. You seem to be defending the players they have and satisfied with keeping the same starting lineup next year.

To answer your question, none but most of the best teams have a lot of talent across the board on offense. This is why the ones who don't are bad teams and the ones that do are generally the best teams. I'm just stating the Panthers did more with less. It's a complement, no need to be defensive.

 

[Neofight]

Man, some people really misunderstand discussions. The original comment made about the Panthers offense had to do about why Cam deserved the MVP. He deserved it because of how well he performed even though the talent around him was sub par.

This has nothing to do with the defense as we all know it was fantastic. It doesn't take an NFL expert to know that the Panthers had average to below average talent on the offense this year. Cam had Stewart and Olsen for major weapons. Ginn did well but is not considered a main threat or WR1. The rest of the WRs are all average to below average. They have a good fullback but no one cares. You put any of those WRs on another team and they either don't start or they just suck. I really believe Cam made them look better than really are.

If you think different it's most likely because you are a Panthers fan.

Start by reframing the argument. How many starting QB's lined up with 3 All Pros and a top 5 OL throughout the season?

The point is he didn't have any. Most playoff teams have a solid WR1 and a good WR2 some even have two solid WRs and then have a TE. Cam only had Olsen. If he had Benjamin it's a different story. Usually your TE is not your top receiver even if they are great.

I'm not sure why anyone feels the need to defend the talent on the offense. I'm pointing out the fact that they will be even better on offense next near. You seem to be defending the players they have and satisfied with keeping the same starting lineup next year.

It's a fact that Carolina had 3 All Pros not named Cam Newton on offense. It's also a fact that Ginn got open frequently in that offense, due to their focus on protection and frequently going max protect. It's also a fact that Funchess turned it on down the stretch of his rookie season. It's also a fact that Ginn was drafted in the first round and has had a decent career in which he just completed a career season. It also a fact that Funchess was taken in the second round and showed promise as a rookie. All of these are simple facts that can be looked up.Now imagine Cam had to play behind a line that was 2/5 rookie converted defensive lineman while throwing to undrafted WR's.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Man, some people really misunderstand discussions. The original comment made about the Panthers offense had to do about why Cam deserved the MVP. He deserved it because of how well he performed even though the talent around him was sub par.

This has nothing to do with the defense as we all know it was fantastic. It doesn't take an NFL expert to know that the Panthers had average to below average talent on the offense this year. Cam had Stewart and Olsen for major weapons. Ginn did well but is not considered a main threat or WR1. The rest of the WRs are all average to below average. They have a good fullback but no one cares. You put any of those WRs on another team and they either don't start or they just suck. I really believe Cam made them look better than really are.

If you think different it's most likely because you are a Panthers fan.

Start by reframing the argument. How many starting QB's lined up with 3 All Pros and a top 5 OL throughout the season?

The point is he didn't have any. Most playoff teams have a solid WR1 and a good WR2 some even have two solid WRs and then have a TE. Cam only had Olsen. If he had Benjamin it's a different story. Usually your TE is not your top receiver even if they are great.

I'm not sure why anyone feels the need to defend the talent on the offense. I'm pointing out the fact that they will be even better on offense next near. You seem to be defending the players they have and satisfied with keeping the same starting lineup next year.

It's a fact that Carolina had 3 All Pros not named Cam Newton on offense. It's also a fact that Ginn got open frequently in that offense, due to their focus on protection and frequently going max protect. It's also a fact that Funchess turned it on down the stretch of his rookie season. It's also a fact that Ginn was drafted in the first round and has had a decent career in which he just completed a career season. It also a fact that Funchess was taken in the second round and showed promise as a rookie. All of these are simple facts that came looked up.Now imagine Cam had to play behind a line that was 2/5 rookie converted defensive lineman while throwing to undrafted WR's.

Why do you keep using Cam? I'm talking about Cam being good because he performed well with less talent than most teams. I fell like I'm banging my head against the wall because you don't understand what I'm talking about. You insist on trying to convince me that the WRs are great and that they would be a WR1 on any other team. Who cares where these players were drafted? I'm talking about skills compared to their peers.

How good are these players really? They are all considered average WRs and Cam had an MVP season despite them. This is the point, not what freaking round they were drafted in. What is so hard to comprehend?

I would say Russell Wilson did something very similar. He had an amazing second half of the season throwing the ball to WRs that most people would consider average. He didn't even have Graham.

 

[Neofight]

Man, some people really misunderstand discussions. The original comment made about the Panthers offense had to do about why Cam deserved the MVP. He deserved it because of how well he performed even though the talent around him was sub par.

This has nothing to do with the defense as we all know it was fantastic. It doesn't take an NFL expert to know that the Panthers had average to below average talent on the offense this year. Cam had Stewart and Olsen for major weapons. Ginn did well but is not considered a main threat or WR1. The rest of the WRs are all average to below average. They have a good fullback but no one cares. You put any of those WRs on another team and they either don't start or they just suck. I really believe Cam made them look better than really are.

If you think different it's most likely because you are a Panthers fan.

Start by reframing the argument. How many starting QB's lined up with 3 All Pros and a top 5 OL throughout the season?

The point is he didn't have any. Most playoff teams have a solid WR1 and a good WR2 some even have two solid WRs and then have a TE. Cam only had Olsen. If he had Benjamin it's a different story. Usually your TE is not your top receiver even if they are great.

I'm not sure why anyone feels the need to defend the talent on the offense. I'm pointing out the fact that they will be even better on offense next near. You seem to be defending the players they have and satisfied with keeping the same starting lineup next year.

It's a fact that Carolina had 3 All Pros not named Cam Newton on offense. It's also a fact that Ginn got open frequently in that offense, due to their focus on protection and frequently going max protect. It's also a fact that Funchess turned it on down the stretch of his rookie season. It's also a fact that Ginn was drafted in the first round and has had a decent career in which he just completed a career season. It also a fact that Funchess was taken in the second round and showed promise as a rookie. All of these are simple facts that came looked up.Now imagine Cam had to play behind a line that was 2/5 rookie converted defensive lineman while throwing to undrafted WR's.

Why do you keep using Cam? I'm talking about Cam being good because he performed well with less talent than most teams. I fell like I'm banging my head against the wall because you don't understand what I'm talking about. You insist on trying to convince me that the WRs are great and that they would be a WR1 on any other team. Who cares where these players were drafted? I'm talking about skills compared to their peers.

How good are these players really? They are all considered average WRs and Cam had an MVP season despite them. This is the point, not what freaking round they were drafted in. What is so hard to comprehend?

I would say Russell Wilson did something very similar. He had an amazing second half of the season throwing the ball to WRs that most people would consider average. He didn't even have Graham.

See bolded. If you're banging your head against the wall, perhaps it's because you have some of the same issues you accuse others of?

 

[Leroy Hoard]

LOL at a lack of talent. You don't become a 6 point favorite in the Super Bowl because of a lack of talent.

 

[Neofight]

LOL at a lack of talent. You don't become a 6 point favorite in the Super Bowl because of a lack of talent.

I guess it shouldn't surprise me that the average forum goer has these views, when I listen to guys as knowledgeable and well viewed as Doug Farrar make statements like "only Russell Wilson could've made that play..." or "only Aaron Rodgers completes that pass..." Hyperbole is the American way, and it likes to bring along its kid brother ignorance.

 

[Chaka]

Speaking of ridiculous spin..

You're gonna hurt your shoulder if you keep reaching like that."...[Ginn] also gets open at will"

"...the unit is top 5 overall"

Wow.

Watch the film.

You're kidding. Seen 10 and 8 years of games from these two guys. Stewart was okay this year, nothing special and Ginn had such a ridiculous outlier year that wasn't eve special except that he somehow managed to improve his career average receiving TDs by 455%. In statistics that is what they call an outlier, a huge outlier no...that's a YUGE outlier. No defensive coordinator game plans for Ted Ginn.

44 receptions is 9 above his career average (26%)

739 yards is 273 above his career average (59%)

16.8 YPR is 3.6 (27%)

10 receiving TDs is 8.2 above his career average (455%)

Look at it this way, are you going to draft Ginn at the relative spot where he finished 2015?

 

[Chaka]

Carolina offensive line #2 overall, according to PFF: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/01/20/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-this-season/

And they ranked 12th & 21st according to Football Outsiders.

Which is a lot closer than they ranked on the eyeball test. Anyone think the Cowboys offensive line looked like the best line in the league last year? That's where PFF ranks them.

 

[Chaka]

LOL at a lack of talent. You don't become a 6 point favorite in the Super Bowl because of a lack of talent.

No one says they have a lack of talent, just that the majority of it is on the defensive side of the ball.

Michael Oher & Ted Ginn?

Mike Tolbert?

Come on guys, that's just silly.

 

[Neofight]

Speaking of ridiculous spin..

You're gonna hurt your shoulder if you keep reaching like that."...[Ginn] also gets open at will"

"...the unit is top 5 overall"

Wow.

Watch the film.

You're kidding. Seen 10 and 8 years of games from these two guys. Stewart was okay this year, nothing special and Ginn had such a ridiculous outlier year that wasn't eve special except that he somehow managed to improve his career average receiving TDs by 455%. In statistics that is what they call an outlier, a huge outlier no...that's a YUGE outlier. No defensive coordinator game plans for Ted Ginn. 44 receptions is 9 above his career average (26%)

739 yards is 273 above his career average (59%)

16.8 YPR is 3.6 (27%)

10 receiving TDs is 8.2 above his career average (455%)

Look at it this way, are you going to draft Ginn at the relative spot where he finished 2015?

Ginn is 30 years old; no I wouldn't draft him there. I would take him for the next season over a handful of other teams current #1 wideouts though. I'd also take Funchess over a few more. Stewart, over the last two years, has been a solid #1 and easily a Top 3 RB in his conference. His talents haven't dimished significantly due to injury, but his numbers are most definitely curbed by playing with a QB whose number is called so frequently in the red zone. Hell, even Deangelo Williams still has a lot of juice left and they let him walk.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

LOL at a lack of talent. You don't become a 6 point favorite in the Super Bowl because of a lack of talent.

They didn't become a 6 point Super bowl favorite because of having more talent than Denver--they became a favorite because they were a hot team that was on a roll going through the playoffs. Point spreads are not determined by "talent"--they are determined by who is playing better--match ups--and trends in betting. The game started at Carolina being a 3.5-4pt favorite and the betting public pumped it up to 6--the talent didn't bump it up to 6. Cam deserved to win the MVP this season because nobody expected that team to go 15-1 in the regular season (especially considering the Benjamin injury before the season started). Cam played a major part in that--and Rivera did a great job coaching. The difference between the NFL and let's say the NBA/MLB is that once the playoffs start--it's a one game win or go home. As great a regular season that Cam head--the problem is that he didn't play the Super bowl with the mind set that this was the ultimate win or go home. Denver punched him in the face early and it basically drained the emotion right out of him. He was running the ball successfully in the first half--and when JStew got hurt and wasn't the same player--and the team needed a running game more desperately than ever--he basically abandoned his legs and his team. With his teams Super bowl chances bouncing around in front of him--he hesitated instead of going all out. The thing is that for Carolina to have won--Cam needed to have at least a good game--or possibly a great game--and he didn't do that. His own mistakes created 14 pts for the opposition (the front side sack fumble in the 1st quarter, and him not diving on the ball in the 4th)--and his team lost by 14pts. In any case--Cam had a flat game in a very flat Super bowl. He's still a great player and a great talent. He's a deserving MVP. He just happened to have a really bad moment on the worst possible stage.

 

[Chaka]

LOL at a lack of talent. You don't become a 6 point favorite in the Super Bowl because of a lack of talent.

I guess it shouldn't surprise me that the average forum goer has these views, when I listen to guys as knowledgeable and well viewed as Doug Farrar make statements like "only Russell Wilson could've made that play..." or "only Aaron Rodgers completes that pass..." Hyperbole is the American way, and it likes to bring along its kid brother ignorance.

No one is saying that Cam Newton is lacking in talent. He is that offense.

Who says that "Only Ted Ginn/Jonathan Stewart could make that play"? Who says "Only Michael Oher could pick up that blitz"?

 

[Neofight]

Carolina offensive line #2 overall, according to PFF: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/01/20/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-this-season/

And they ranked 12th & 21st according to Football Outsiders.Which is a lot closer than they ranked on the eyeball test. Anyone think the Cowboys offensive line looked like the best line in the league last year? That's where PFF ranks them.

Carolina offensive line #2 overall, according to PFF: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/01/20/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-this-season/

And they ranked 12th & 21st according to Football Outsiders.Which is a lot closer than they ranked on the eyeball test. Anyone think the Cowboys offensive line looked like the best line in the league last year? That's where PFF ranks them.

Not using the all 22. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does Football Outsiders even use the film, or just go off the numbers? I believe the later.

 

[Neofight]

Carolina offensive line #2 overall, according to PFF: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/01/20/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-this-season/

And they ranked 12th & 21st according to Football Outsiders.Which is a lot closer than they ranked on the eyeball test. Anyone think the Cowboys offensive line looked like the best line in the league last year? That's where PFF ranks them.

Carolina offensive line #2 overall, according to PFF: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/01/20/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-this-season/

And they ranked 12th & 21st according to Football Outsiders.Which is a lot closer than they ranked on the eyeball test. Anyone think the Cowboys offensive line looked like the best line in the league last year? That's where PFF ranks them.

Not using the all 22. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does Football Outsiders even use the film, or just go off the numbers? I believe the later.

Outsiders just looks at Adjusted Sack Rate, which is a single basic metric: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/olETA: here is how PFF grades, so you can understand the process involved: https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/how-we-grade/

 

[Neofight]

LOL at a lack of talent. You don't become a 6 point favorite in the Super Bowl because of a lack of talent.

I guess it shouldn't surprise me that the average forum goer has these views, when I listen to guys as knowledgeable and well viewed as Doug Farrar make statements like "only Russell Wilson could've made that play..." or "only Aaron Rodgers completes that pass..." Hyperbole is the American way, and it likes to bring along its kid brother ignorance.

No one is saying that Cam Newton is lacking in talent. He is that offense.Who says that "Only Ted Ginn/Jonathan Stewart could make that play"? Who says "Only Michael Oher could pick up that blitz"?

LOL at a lack of talent. You don't become a 6 point favorite in the Super Bowl because of a lack of talent.

I guess it shouldn't surprise me that the average forum goer has these views, when I listen to guys as knowledgeable and well viewed as Doug Farrar make statements like "only Russell Wilson could've made that play..." or "only Aaron Rodgers completes that pass..." Hyperbole is the American way, and it likes to bring along its kid brother ignorance.

This is pretty much what I'm talking about. Nobody is an entire offense. Greg Olsen farts in this sentiments general direction. As does Tolbert, Kalil, et al.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Man, some people really misunderstand discussions. The original comment made about the Panthers offense had to do about why Cam deserved the MVP. He deserved it because of how well he performed even though the talent around him was sub par.

This has nothing to do with the defense as we all know it was fantastic. It doesn't take an NFL expert to know that the Panthers had average to below average talent on the offense this year. Cam had Stewart and Olsen for major weapons. Ginn did well but is not considered a main threat or WR1. The rest of the WRs are all average to below average. They have a good fullback but no one cares. You put any of those WRs on another team and they either don't start or they just suck. I really believe Cam made them look better than really are.

If you think different it's most likely because you are a Panthers fan.

Start by reframing the argument. How many starting QB's lined up with 3 All Pros and a top 5 OL throughout the season?

The point is he didn't have any. Most playoff teams have a solid WR1 and a good WR2 some even have two solid WRs and then have a TE. Cam only had Olsen. If he had Benjamin it's a different story. Usually your TE is not your top receiver even if they are great.

I'm not sure why anyone feels the need to defend the talent on the offense. I'm pointing out the fact that they will be even better on offense next near. You seem to be defending the players they have and satisfied with keeping the same starting lineup next year.

It's a fact that Carolina had 3 All Pros not named Cam Newton on offense. It's also a fact that Ginn got open frequently in that offense, due to their focus on protection and frequently going max protect. It's also a fact that Funchess turned it on down the stretch of his rookie season. It's also a fact that Ginn was drafted in the first round and has had a decent career in which he just completed a career season. It also a fact that Funchess was taken in the second round and showed promise as a rookie. All of these are simple facts that came looked up.Now imagine Cam had to play behind a line that was 2/5 rookie converted defensive lineman while throwing to undrafted WR's.

Why do you keep using Cam? I'm talking about Cam being good because he performed well with less talent than most teams. I fell like I'm banging my head against the wall because you don't understand what I'm talking about. You insist on trying to convince me that the WRs are great and that they would be a WR1 on any other team. Who cares where these players were drafted? I'm talking about skills compared to their peers.

How good are these players really? They are all considered average WRs and Cam had an MVP season despite them. This is the point, not what freaking round they were drafted in. What is so hard to comprehend?

I would say Russell Wilson did something very similar. He had an amazing second half of the season throwing the ball to WRs that most people would consider average. He didn't even have Graham.

See bolded. If you're banging your head against the wall, perhaps it's because you have some of the same issues you accuse others of?

Jesus man. Cam is the focal point of my discussion. I am talking about the talent surrounding Cam, not Cam himself. I am not talking about the team as a whole and I'm not talking about the defense. I am talking about the quality of talent on the offense that Cam has to work with. It is not as good as what you would expect a 15-1 team to have.

Go back in history and show me teams that went 15-1 that you believe had less talent on their offense than the Panthers this year. Did you truly believe that the talent surrounding Cam on offense was good enough to produce the season it did? I can't imagine anyone thought it would.