Can this years Steeler defense (2 Viewers)

[Modog814]

I thought it would be interesting to look at the Top Defense in terms of % of total possible yards allowed by defense only. Basically I took a defenses yards allowed on defense and divided that by the # of drives against X (100- Avg Starting Field Position Against):

Team	Total TO go	Yards Al	% AllowedPIT	7106.34	2116.50	0.29783264BAL	7240.98	2330.70	0.321876321MIN	7628.91	2498.28	0.327475354TB	 7490.16	2500.84	0.333883388TEN	7684.50	2571.31	0.334609929NYG	6955.20	2342.40	0.336783989PHI	7784.70	2662.00	0.341952805CAR	7280.76	2507.16	0.344354161CHI	8028.54	2865.33	0.356893034WAS	6869.45	2465.25	0.358871525

Very interesting. Where did you get these numbers?

Those are all calculated stats based on the stats from Football Outsiders. They have their stats in "per drive" so Total To Go is (100-AvgFieldPos)X#of Drives, Yards Allowed was Yards/DriveXDrives % is obviously Yards All / Total To Go. I believe those numbers don't actually include week 11 though.Just a different take.

 

[The Jerk]

Following up on my own suggestion, here are some of the aforementioned teams in terms of a normalized ppg. Keep in mind I did all of this through cut and paste and excel calculation so there could certainly be errors.

2000 BALT 165 PA 10254 league total, normalization ppg = 0.016091976 PITT 138 PA 7508 league total, normalization ppg = 0.018382000 TENN 191 PA 10254 league total, normalization ppg = 0.018631977 ATL 129 PA 6733 league total, normalization ppg = 0.019161986 CHI 187 PA 9193 league total, normalization ppg = 0.020341985 CHI 198 PA 9645 league total, normalization ppg = 0.02053A few comments: Clearly this statistic suggests the reason the 2000 Ravens are considered at the top of the list for any discussion on greatest single-season defenses.Note the huge difference in league total points between 1976 and 1977; points went down by 10% in one season.

Note also that nearly everyone (including me) forgets that the 1986 Bears were stingier in ppg than their more-famous 1985 version. Normalized, it's still true, but just barely. Of course, everyone remembers 1985 because they won SB XX...

I don't have the ability to run this through a fancy database query, but if someone else can, it would be interesting to find the top 10 defenses all-time this way. In fact, it would be interesting to see it by era;

pre-merger, post-merger especially.

Edited to add in 2000 Titans... note that the 1986 NYG were far off the pace set by this group at 0.02567.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Following up on my own suggestion, here are some of the aforementioned teams in terms of a normalized ppg. Keep in mind I did all of this through cut and paste and excel calculation so there could certainly be errors.

2000 BALT 165 PA 10254 league total, normalization ppg = 0.016091976 PITT 138 PA  7508 league total, normalization ppg = 0.018382000 TENN 191 PA 10254 league total, normalization ppg = 0.018631977 ATL  129 PA  6733 league total, normalization ppg = 0.019161986 CHI  187 PA  9193 league total, normalization ppg = 0.020341985 CHI  198 PA  9645 league total, normalization ppg = 0.02053

A few comments: Clearly this statistic suggests the reason the 2000 Ravens are considered at the top of the list for any discussion on greatest single-season defenses.Note the huge difference in league total points between 1976 and 1977; points went down by 10% in one season.Note also that nearly everyone (including me) forgets that the 1986 Bears were stingier in ppg than their more-famous 1985 version. Normalized, it's still true, but just barely. Of course, everyone remembers 1985 because they won SB XX...I don't have the ability to run this through a fancy database query, but if someone else can, it would be interesting to find the top 10 defenses all-time this way. In fact, it would be interesting to see it by era;pre-merger, post-merger especially.Edited to add in 2000 Titans... note that the 1986 NYG were far off the pace set by this group at 0.02567.

You're going to want to account for the number of teams in the NFL. In 1977 it was 28; in '00 it was 31. So the '00 Ravens allowed 0.499 as many points as the average team; the '77 Falcons allowed 0.536; the '76 Steelers .515. The '68 Colts .502; the '02 Bucs .565. Of course, you probably want to exclude the team you're looking at when doing these calculations.

 

[Sheriff66]

Until the Steelers do something about that slop that they play on, defensive stats and numbers coming out of there will just as much be a product of 8 games on a craptastic surface than talent on the defensive side of the ball.

That said, the Steelers D is good. Best ever or among them? Not even close.

That argument cuts both ways. Players like Harrison, Timmons, and Polamalu are held back by the surface as much as the offensive skill players.

True, but they play and practice on the surface. Home field advantage.

Clowns Fans

Have someone smart read you Post #34.

Someone wrote something dumb after they looked stupid, what does that have to do with anything ?

 

[DawgPoundNJ]

For the record, I originally wrote that the Steelers' defense is good, just skewed by the fact that the field is ridiculous. And all I get is Yinzer hatred.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

For the record, I originally wrote that the Steelers' defense is good, just skewed by the fact that the field is ridiculous. And all I get is Yinzer hatred.

2008 at home : 92 pts allowed in 5 games = 18.4 ppg2008 on road : 58 pts allowed in 5 games = 11.3 ppg

I think I spotted the problem.. you've got this shipment marked as a 2-day delivery when it's going to Columbus, and that's only 1 day.

That's because it's going to Columbus, Georgia.. not Columbus, Ohio. You see those two letters next to the city? That's called a state. What else you got, Wonderboy?

 

[Evilgrin 72]

I don't really think it's misleading. Sure, it's subject to Simpson's Paradox as a subset, but coupled with the fact that they're #1 in pass, rush, and total defense (by a large margin), I don't think it applies in this case. I also see it as a pretty solid metric since the sample size is large enough as to all but eradicate any anomalies.

The fact that the Steelers are 1st in pass and rush defense (if you measure those things correctly) would be the important thing. A statistic that's inherently flawed that turns out to be accurate in some cases (which, of course, it must) doesn't mean it's worth using.

I guess I don't see why yards per play is subject to Simpson's Paradox and is inherently flawed but yards per game isn't. They're both flawed, but with yards per play, you're looking at a much larger subset, and as such, less chance of statistical anomaly.

 

[fred_1_15301]

For the record, I originally wrote that the Steelers' defense is good, just skewed by the fact that the field is ridiculous. And all I get is Yinzer hatred.

2008 at home : 92 pts allowed in 5 games = 18.4 ppg2008 on road : 58 pts allowed in 5 games = 11.3 ppg

I think I spotted the problem.. you've got this shipment marked as a 2-day delivery when it's going to Columbus, and that's only 1 day.

That's because it's going to Columbus, Georgia.. not Columbus, Ohio. You see those two letters next to the city? That's called a state. What else you got, Wonderboy?

 

[DawgPoundNJ]

For the record, I originally wrote that the Steelers' defense is good, just skewed by the fact that the field is ridiculous. And all I get is Yinzer hatred.

2008 at home : 92 pts allowed in 5 games = 18.4 ppg2008 on road : 58 pts allowed in 5 games = 11.3 ppg

I think I spotted the problem.. you've got this shipment marked as a 2-day delivery when it's going to Columbus, and that's only 1 day.

That's because it's going to Columbus, Georgia.. not Columbus, Ohio. You see those two letters next to the city? That's called a state. What else you got, Wonderboy?

Fair enough point, EG. I guess I'm outta here.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

For the record, I originally wrote that the Steelers' defense is good, just skewed by the fact that the field is ridiculous. And all I get is Yinzer hatred.

2008 at home : 92 pts allowed in 5 games = 18.4 ppg2008 on road : 58 pts allowed in 5 games = 11.3 ppg

I think I spotted the problem.. you've got this shipment marked as a 2-day delivery when it's going to Columbus, and that's only 1 day.

That's because it's going to Columbus, Georgia.. not Columbus, Ohio. You see those two letters next to the city? That's called a state. What else you got, Wonderboy?

Fair enough point, EG. I guess I'm outta here.

Hope you didn't think I was a Vermeil with that last part... it's one of my favorite "Tommy Boy" quotes. Wasn't meant to offend.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I don't really think it's misleading. Sure, it's subject to Simpson's Paradox as a subset, but coupled with the fact that they're #1 in pass, rush, and total defense (by a large margin), I don't think it applies in this case. I also see it as a pretty solid metric since the sample size is large enough as to all but eradicate any anomalies.

The fact that the Steelers are 1st in pass and rush defense (if you measure those things correctly) would be the important thing. A statistic that's inherently flawed that turns out to be accurate in some cases (which, of course, it must) doesn't mean it's worth using.

I guess I don't see why yards per play is subject to Simpson's Paradox and is inherently flawed but yards per game isn't. They're both flawed, but with yards per play, you're looking at a much larger subset, and as such, less chance of statistical anomaly.

Washington allows fewer yards per pass than Tampa Bay, fewer yards per rush than Tampa Bay, but allows more yards per play than Tampa Bay.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

I don't really think it's misleading. Sure, it's subject to Simpson's Paradox as a subset, but coupled with the fact that they're #1 in pass, rush, and total defense (by a large margin), I don't think it applies in this case. I also see it as a pretty solid metric since the sample size is large enough as to all but eradicate any anomalies.

The fact that the Steelers are 1st in pass and rush defense (if you measure those things correctly) would be the important thing. A statistic that's inherently flawed that turns out to be accurate in some cases (which, of course, it must) doesn't mean it's worth using.

I guess I don't see why yards per play is subject to Simpson's Paradox and is inherently flawed but yards per game isn't. They're both flawed, but with yards per play, you're looking at a much larger subset, and as such, less chance of statistical anomaly.

Washington allows fewer yards per pass than Tampa Bay, fewer yards per rush than Tampa Bay, but allows more yards per play than Tampa Bay.

Is there really that huge a discrepancy of run vs. pass plays against between those two teams? Interesting. My point, though, is that you're not comparing the 2008 Steelers to one other defense, you're comparing them to approximately 900 other defenses (every team in the NFL since 1979.) Simpson's Paradox is primarily applied when comparing two examples, like you did above, not ranking 1 variable in a seas of nearly 1,000 identically calculated variables. Unless I'm mistaken, I haven't taken a statistics course in over 20 years.

 

[The Jerk]

Following up on my own suggestion, here are some of the aforementioned teams in terms of a normalized ppg. Keep in mind I did all of this through cut and paste and excel calculation so there could certainly be errors.

2000 BALT 165 PA 10254 league total, normalization ppg = 0.016091976 PITT 138 PA  7508 league total, normalization ppg = 0.018382000 TENN 191 PA 10254 league total, normalization ppg = 0.018631977 ATL  129 PA  6733 league total, normalization ppg = 0.019161986 CHI  187 PA  9193 league total, normalization ppg = 0.020341985 CHI  198 PA  9645 league total, normalization ppg = 0.02053

A few comments: Clearly this statistic suggests the reason the 2000 Ravens are considered at the top of the list for any discussion on greatest single-season defenses.Note the huge difference in league total points between 1976 and 1977; points went down by 10% in one season.Note also that nearly everyone (including me) forgets that the 1986 Bears were stingier in ppg than their more-famous 1985 version. Normalized, it's still true, but just barely. Of course, everyone remembers 1985 because they won SB XX...I don't have the ability to run this through a fancy database query, but if someone else can, it would be interesting to find the top 10 defenses all-time this way. In fact, it would be interesting to see it by era;pre-merger, post-merger especially.Edited to add in 2000 Titans... note that the 1986 NYG were far off the pace set by this group at 0.02567.

You're going to want to account for the number of teams in the NFL. In 1977 it was 28; in '00 it was 31. So the '00 Ravens allowed 0.499 as many points as the average team; the '77 Falcons allowed 0.536; the '76 Steelers .515. The '68 Colts .502; the '02 Bucs .565. Of course, you probably want to exclude the team you're looking at when doing these calculations.

Thanks Chase. I did that in a hurry and I forgot about the team differential. The '68 Colts number would be even more impressive if you compare it to the combined NFL/AFL total average (.487) although I understand why you isolated the leagues given no play among the teams during the regular season.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

I think Pittsburgh might have passed Tennessee in scoring defense this week too.

 

[Godsbrother]

I think Pittsburgh might have passed Tennessee in scoring defense this week too.

I am not concerned with that right now -- we have a HUGE challenge this week going up to New England and the remaining schedule is BRUTAL. Let's see how they fare at the end of the season:Week 13: @New EnglandWeek 14: DallasWeek 15: @BaltimoreWeek 16: @TennesseeWeek 17: ClevelandBaltimore's only a game behind and has:Week 13: @CincinnatiWeek 14: @WashingtonWeek 15: PittsburghWeek 16: @DallasWeek 17: JacksonvilleThe next four weeks is going tell volumes about the 2008 Steelers. They need to win 2 of those games.

 

[roadkill1292]

I think Pittsburgh might have passed Tennessee in scoring defense this week too.

I am not concerned with that right now -- we have a HUGE challenge this week going up to New England and the remaining schedule is BRUTAL. Let's see how they fare at the end of the season:Week 13: @New EnglandWeek 14: DallasWeek 15: @BaltimoreWeek 16: @TennesseeWeek 17: ClevelandBaltimore's only a game behind and has:Week 13: @CincinnatiWeek 14: @WashingtonWeek 15: PittsburghWeek 16: @DallasWeek 17: JacksonvilleThe next four weeks is going tell volumes about the 2008 Steelers. They need to win 2 of those games.

Not to interject ourselves into your discussion, but several of us Baltimorons have been discussing this very issue in yesterday's game thread. With New England and Indy playing so well (and with easier schedules ahead), the division winner will be perhaps the only playoff representative. A Stillers' stumble in Foxboro would help set up a massively important Week 15 game in Baltimore. We Ratbird fans are just happy to be here with a chance.

 

[Stillers Jr.]

I think Pittsburgh might have passed Tennessee in scoring defense this week too.

I am not concerned with that right now -- we have a HUGE challenge this week going up to New England and the remaining schedule is BRUTAL. Let's see how they fare at the end of the season:Week 13: @New England

Week 14: Dallas

Week 15: @Baltimore

Week 16: @Tennessee

Week 17: Cleveland

Baltimore's only a game behind and has:

Week 13: @Cincinnati

Week 14: @Washington

Week 15: Pittsburgh

Week 16: @Dallas

Week 17: Jacksonville

The next four weeks is going tell volumes about the 2008 Steelers. They need to win 2 of those games.

Not to interject ourselves into your discussion, but several of us Baltimorons have been discussing this very issue in yesterday's game thread. With New England and Indy playing so well (and with easier schedules ahead), the division winner will be perhaps the only playoff representative. A Stillers' stumble in Foxboro would help set up a massively important Week 15 game in Baltimore. We Ratbird fans are just happy to be here with a chance.

Couldn't have said it better myself...

 

[Evilgrin 72]

I think Pittsburgh might have passed Tennessee in scoring defense this week too.

I am not concerned with that right now -- we have a HUGE challenge this week going up to New England and the remaining schedule is BRUTAL. Let's see how they fare at the end of the season:Week 13: @New EnglandWeek 14: DallasWeek 15: @BaltimoreWeek 16: @TennesseeWeek 17: ClevelandBaltimore's only a game behind and has:Week 13: @CincinnatiWeek 14: @WashingtonWeek 15: PittsburghWeek 16: @DallasWeek 17: JacksonvilleThe next four weeks is going tell volumes about the 2008 Steelers. They need to win 2 of those games.

Especially the AFC games. The Dallas game doesn't matter as much. Assuming we beat Cleveland and the Ravens take out Cincinnati, if Baltimore beats Pittsburgh, they each have 1 division loss for the season, but the Steelers would only have 2 AFC losses to Baltimore's 3, so they would still have the tiebreaker edge. The New England and Tennessee games are gigantic - if they win both, they should win the division even if they lose to Baltimore, barring a massive run by the Ravens to close the season. A win over Baltimore in week 15 pretty much secures the division, so as I see it, they either need to win that game, or both the New England and Tennessee games to go into week 17 controlling their own destiny.

 

[roadkill1292]

I think Pittsburgh might have passed Tennessee in scoring defense this week too.

I am not concerned with that right now -- we have a HUGE challenge this week going up to New England and the remaining schedule is BRUTAL. Let's see how they fare at the end of the season:Week 13: @New EnglandWeek 14: DallasWeek 15: @BaltimoreWeek 16: @TennesseeWeek 17: ClevelandBaltimore's only a game behind and has:Week 13: @CincinnatiWeek 14: @WashingtonWeek 15: PittsburghWeek 16: @DallasWeek 17: JacksonvilleThe next four weeks is going tell volumes about the 2008 Steelers. They need to win 2 of those games.

One small correction of note: the Ravens get the Skins in Baltimore.

 

[Bills_Fan11]

I would say no. They are really, really good, but watching them, I do not see an all-time great defense. Plus, they have had too many letdowns at the end of games:

-Allowing game-losing TDs to the Colts and Giants in the final minutes (regardless of whether their opponent got the ball because of a punt return or a turnover, they still allowed a TD drive)

-Allowing an offense led by Joe Flacco to drive the field on them late to tie it up in a game the Steelers eventually won in OT

-Allowing the Chargers to drive the field for a FG last week in the 4th quarter, although the Steelers offense then went down and got the win back

Okay, these are only a few instances, but most of the time, all-time great defenses do not have this many 4th quarter lapses. They are really, really good, but not an all-time great by any means.

The bolded part really sticks out in my mind. The Ravens after dominating most of the game, basically gave it away on a fumble return for TD....at that point a 7 point deficit felt like it may as well have been 20 with a rookie QB making his first career road start against a team that had all the momentum in the world in their stadium; and Flacco just took them down the field to tie the game like it was nothing.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Jets fan watching here. Jets are looking at an 11-5/12-4 season, but won't have the tiebreaker over PIT or BAL. So the Jets are rooting for at least 2 PIT losses and 1 BAL loss to feel very comfortable, although they might get away with just 1 PIT loss or even no Baltimore losses. Based on how hard PIT's schedule is, I think Jets fans have to root for BAL to win the H2H game.

Also a tough question is whether the Jets should root for PIT or NE this weekend.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Jets fan watching here. Jets are looking at an 11-5/12-4 season, but won't have the tiebreaker over PIT or BAL. So the Jets are rooting for at least 2 PIT losses and 1 BAL loss to feel very comfortable, although they might get away with just 1 PIT loss or even no Baltimore losses. Based on how hard PIT's schedule is, I think Jets fans have to root for BAL to win the H2H game.Also a tough question is whether the Jets should root for PIT or NE this weekend.

Pittsburgh, for sure. Winning the division should be the first priority, and a Steelers win will go a long way towards helping them in that regard. Having said that, I expect the Patriots to win, as they always seem to beat the Steelers nowadays, but if I were a Jets fan, I would be rooting for the Steelers.

 

[timschochet]

This Steeler team has one of the best defenses I have ever seen. They are as dominant in the NFL right now as USC is in college football. New England has a dynamic offense right now, as evidenced in the last few weeks, and Matt Cassell is finally getting things and making good decisions. But the Steelers shut him down. The Steelers have pretty much shut down every offense this year, including the Giants and Colts, both of whom who won much more because of Pittsburgh's offensive errors and woes more than anything their respective offenses did.

Without going back 25 years, the only defense I've seen that is this good was the 2000 Ravens. I know I will be accused of hyperbole, but I really believe we are looking at a classic D, one that will long be remembered. Especially if the Steelers have post-season success.

 

[Touchdown Syndrome]

This Steeler team has one of the best defenses I have ever seen. They are as dominant in the NFL right now as USC is in college football. New England has a dynamic offense right now, as evidenced in the last few weeks, and Matt Cassell is finally getting things and making good decisions. But the Steelers shut him down. The Steelers have pretty much shut down every offense this year, including the Giants and Colts, both of whom who won much more because of Pittsburgh's offensive errors and woes more than anything their respective offenses did.

Without going back 25 years, the only defense I've seen that is this good was the 2000 Ravens. I know I will be accused of hyperbole, but I really believe we are looking at a classic D, one that will long be remembered. Especially if the Steelers have post-season success.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...&hl=steeler

 

[gruecd]

It'll be interesting to see how they do against Dallas next week.

 

[timschochet]

This Steeler team has one of the best defenses I have ever seen. They are as dominant in the NFL right now as USC is in college football. New England has a dynamic offense right now, as evidenced in the last few weeks, and Matt Cassell is finally getting things and making good decisions. But the Steelers shut him down. The Steelers have pretty much shut down every offense this year, including the Giants and Colts, both of whom who won much more because of Pittsburgh's offensive errors and woes more than anything their respective offenses did.

Without going back 25 years, the only defense I've seen that is this good was the 2000 Ravens. I know I will be accused of hyperbole, but I really believe we are looking at a classic D, one that will long be remembered. Especially if the Steelers have post-season success.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...&hl=steeler

I forgot about that thread, honestly. I was pretty excited watching that game today. I have changed my mind about this.

 

[cobalt_27]

This Steeler team has one of the best defenses I have ever seen. They are as dominant in the NFL right now as USC is in college football. New England has a dynamic offense right now, as evidenced in the last few weeks, and Matt Cassell is finally getting things and making good decisions. But the Steelers shut him down. The Steelers have pretty much shut down every offense this year, including the Giants and Colts, both of whom who won much more because of Pittsburgh's offensive errors and woes more than anything their respective offenses did.

Without going back 25 years, the only defense I've seen that is this good was the 2000 Ravens. I know I will be accused of hyperbole, but I really believe we are looking at a classic D, one that will long be remembered. Especially if the Steelers have post-season success.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...&hl=steeler

I forgot about that thread, honestly. I was pretty excited watching that game today. I have changed my mind about this.

 

[CrossEyed]

I don't think this team can be put in the class of the '76 D. What that team did was truly phenomenal. Nine wins in a row after starting 1-4 and in those 9 wins they had 5 shutouts and only gave up 2 TDs, both in the same game to the Oilers. So in 8 of 9 games they kept the opponents out of the end zone.

This year's D is great, but it's not '76 great.

That being said, if **** LeBeau doesn't get into the HOF as a coach they should just shut the place down.

 

[zamboni]

It'll be interesting to see how they do against Dallas next week.

As much as I like this defense and had no problem starting them yesterday, I don't like their chances to totally shut down Romo & Co.

 

[Ghost Rider]

This Steeler team has one of the best defenses I have ever seen. They are as dominant in the NFL right now as USC is in college football. New England has a dynamic offense right now, as evidenced in the last few weeks, and Matt Cassell is finally getting things and making good decisions. But the Steelers shut him down. The Steelers have pretty much shut down every offense this year, including the Giants and Colts, both of whom who won much more because of Pittsburgh's offensive errors and woes more than anything their respective offenses did. Without going back 25 years, the only defense I've seen that is this good was the 2000 Ravens. I know I will be accused of hyperbole, but I really believe we are looking at a classic D, one that will long be remembered. Especially if the Steelers have post-season success.

Please stop with the hyperbole, Steelers fan. This defense is great, but not all-time great. Also, saying they shut down the Giants and Colts offense is just wrong. Okay, they shut them down at times, but at the end of the games, when it mattered most, they allowed touchdown-losing drives. That is hardly shutting them down.

That being said, if **** LeBeau doesn't get into the HOF as a coach they should just shut the place down.

 

[munchkin]

This Steeler team has one of the best defenses I have ever seen. They are as dominant in the NFL right now as USC is in college football. New England has a dynamic offense right now, as evidenced in the last few weeks, and Matt Cassell is finally getting things and making good decisions. But the Steelers shut him down. The Steelers have pretty much shut down every offense this year, including the Giants and Colts, both of whom who won much more because of Pittsburgh's offensive errors and woes more than anything their respective offenses did.

Without going back 25 years, the only defense I've seen that is this good was the 2000 Ravens. I know I will be accused of hyperbole, but I really believe we are looking at a classic D, one that will long be remembered. Especially if the Steelers have post-season success.

How old are you? Are you not going back 25 years because you can't without the aid of the Encyclopedia Britanica?

 

[Chase Stuart]

Right now, I think the Steelers D can be considered among the best defenses of the last 10 years. It's going to be behind the Ravens D, but there's no reason it can't be considered alongside the Bucs '02 defense, the Ravens' '06 defense, the Titans' '00 defense, or some of the good Bears ('01-'05-'06), Eagles ('01-'02) or Patriots ('03) defense.

As far as all time goes, I have a hard time seeing a defense that's better than the '69 or '70 Vikings teams. In the 16 team NFL, the '69 Vikings were 1st in points allowed, first in yards allowed, first in passing yards allowed, first in passing touchdowns allowed, first in interceptions, first in yards per pass allowed, first in yards per rush allowed, second in rushing yards allowed and second in rushing touchdowns allowed, second in total turnovers and third in sacks.

In the 26 team NFL, the '70 Vikings were 1st in points allowed, 1st in yards allowed, 1st in passing yards allowed, first in passing touchdowns allowed, second in interceptions, first in yards per pass allowed, fifth in yards per rush allowed, fifth in rushing yards allowed, first in rushing touchdowns allowed, first in total turnovers and third in sacks.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

ESPN's Gallo says the 2008 Steelers are the third best defense of all-time, behind the 1985 Bears (#2) and the 1976 Steelers (#1)

LINK

 

[Ghost Rider]

Once again, it all depends on how they do in the postseason. If they dominate in the postseason in route to the Steelers winning the Super Bowl, then they are in the conversation. But not until.

Also, for comparison's sake, no way should they go ahead of the 2000 Ravens already. That Ravens defense allowed 165 points in the regular season. The Steelers have already allowed 192, with two games still to go.

In the playoffs, the Ravens allowed 23 points in four games (7 of which were off a kickoff return in the Super Bowl). That means the defense essentially allowed 16 points in four games, and the four offenses they shut down were ranked 2nd, 14th, 6th and 13th. That is pure domination. Get back to me when this Steelers defense does something like that.

 

[Stillers Jr.]

Once again, it all depends on how they do in the postseason. If they dominate in the postseason in route to the Steelers winning the Super Bowl, then they are in the conversation. But not until.Also, for comparison's sake, no way should they go ahead of the 2000 Ravens already. That Ravens defense allowed 165 points in the regular season. The Steelers have already allowed 192, with two games still to go.In the playoffs, the Ravens allowed 23 points in four games (7 of which were off a kickoff return in the Super Bowl). That means the defense essentially allowed 16 points in four games, and the four offenses they shut down were ranked 2nd, 14th, 6th and 13th. That is pure domination. Get back to me when this Steelers defense does something like that.

Wow you are a tough customer.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Wow you are a tough customer.

Why? Because I am not one of those people who wants to prematurely declare someone or something one of the greatest things ever before the season is even over? And the numbers already show that the Steelers have a lot to overcome before they can be on the same level as the Ravens defense from '00. That is as plain as day.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

ESPN's Gallo says the 2008 Steelers are the third best defense of all-time, behind the 1985 Bears (#2) and the 1976 Steelers (#1)

LINK

Those are totally arbitrary rankings based on nothing but his gut (and apparently excluding all teams before 1960 even though he says "all time"). Every serious attempt at analysis I've seen indicates the Ravens were the best defense in the modern era.

 

[sho nuff]

Once again, it all depends on how they do in the postseason. If they dominate in the postseason in route to the Steelers winning the Super Bowl, then they are in the conversation. But not until.Also, for comparison's sake, no way should they go ahead of the 2000 Ravens already. That Ravens defense allowed 165 points in the regular season. The Steelers have already allowed 192, with two games still to go.In the playoffs, the Ravens allowed 23 points in four games (7 of which were off a kickoff return in the Super Bowl). That means the defense essentially allowed 16 points in four games, and the four offenses they shut down were ranked 2nd, 14th, 6th and 13th. That is pure domination. Get back to me when this Steelers defense does something like that.

What if they dominate and do very well but the offense cannot muster enough to help win it all. Are they not in the conversation then?

 

[Ghost Rider]

Every serious attempt at analysis I've seen indicates the Ravens were the best defense in the modern era.

Yep. And it isn't close, as far as the last 20 years go. That Raven defense had 4 shutouts (in other words, they pitched a shutout in 1/4 of their regular season games...think for a minute about how ridiculous that is), and held their opponents to single digit points in 9 of 16 games (or 12 of 20 games, counting the playoffs). This year's Steelers defense currently has zero shutouts, and has held their opponents to single digit points in 3 of 14 games thus far. Also, that Ravens defense forced 49 turnovers in 16 games. So far, the Steelers defense has forced 27 in 14 games. So, really, as great as this year's Steelers defense has been, they are not even close to being as great as that Ravens defense was. Not even close.

What if they dominate and do very well but the offense cannot muster enough to help win it all. Are they not in the conversation then?

It depends on many factors. Their points allowed total for the season already puts them behind some of the best defenses ever, though.

 

[Stillers Jr.]

Wow you are a tough customer.

Why? Because I am not one of those people who wants to prematurely declare someone or something one of the greatest things ever before the season is even over? And the numbers already show that the Steelers have a lot to overcome before they can be on the same level as the Ravens defense from '00. That is as plain as day.

No, it's just that you are so adamant about it...All I know is the Steeler defense this year is really good and fun to watch.The "All-Time" talk is something that will never be agreed upon regardless of the stats or opponents or whatever..

 

[The_Man]

This year's Steelers D is excellent and clearly one of the best of the decade. But a lot of that all-time talk started because "They're #1 across the board."

Well, now they're not. Which is good, because it allows the focus to shift away from all-time greatness, because they're not that yet, either.

People forget how great the 2000 Ravens really were -- fewest points ever, complete post-season domination, and -- most impressive to me -- the only team to give up under 1,000 yards rushing in a 16-game season. To give up 60 yards per game for an entire season is incredible.

Since none (or few, anyway) of us like to base things totally on stats, then I think you have to allow the argument that a team can't be considered "best ever" if it doesn't win a championship. The logic of that argument is clear -- other defenses have won championships, so if you want to be ranked among them, you have to win one as well.

That's why the 85 Bears are legendary and the 91 Eagles -- who might have been a better D -- are not.

An amazing thing about those mid-80s Bears -- if the Redskins didn't have their number, then they might have won 3 straight Super Bowls. The Redskins won at Chicago in the 86 divisional round, depriving the world of a match-up between the defending Bears and the 86 Giants. Then in 87, the Redskins won in Chicago in the divisional round again, then cruised past the Vikings and Broncos for the Championship.

 

[Chase Stuart]

ESPN's Gallo says the 2008 Steelers are the third best defense of all-time, behind the 1985 Bears (#2) and the 1976 Steelers (#1)

LINK

Those are totally arbitrary rankings based on nothing but his gut (and apparently excluding all teams before 1960 even though he says "all time"). Every serious attempt at analysis I've seen indicates the Ravens were the best defense in the modern era.

The '02 Bucs have a legit argument over the Ravens. The '86 Bears have an even better one.Depending on how you define the modern era, the '69 or '70 Vikings do as well. I'll be posting a writeup on this soon.

 

[Chase Stuart]

This year's Steelers D is excellent and clearly one of the best of the decade. But a lot of that all-time talk started because "They're #1 across the board."

Well, now they're not. Which is good, because it allows the focus to shift away from all-time greatness, because they're not that yet, either.

People forget how great the 2000 Ravens really were -- fewest points ever, complete post-season domination, and -- most impressive to me -- the only team to give up under 1,000 yards rushing in a 16-game season. To give up 60 yards per game for an entire season is incredible.

Since none (or few, anyway) of us like to base things totally on stats, then I think you have to allow the argument that a team can't be considered "best ever" if it doesn't win a championship. The logic of that argument is clear -- other defenses have won championships, so if you want to be ranked among them, you have to win one as well.

That's why the 85 Bears are legendary and the 91 Eagles -- who might have been a better D -- are not.

An amazing thing about those mid-80s Bears -- if the Redskins didn't have their number, then they might have won 3 straight Super Bowls. The Redskins won at Chicago in the 86 divisional round, depriving the world of a match-up between the defending Bears and the 86 Giants. Then in 87, the Redskins won in Chicago in the divisional round again, then cruised past the Vikings and Broncos for the Championship.

Neither of those are true. And the Steelers are pretty much #1 across the board.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Every serious attempt at analysis I've seen indicates the Ravens were the best defense in the modern era.

Yep. And it isn't close, as far as the last 20 years go. That Raven defense had 4 shutouts (in other words, they pitched a shutout in 1/4 of their regular season games...think for a minute about how ridiculous that is), and held their opponents to single digit points in 9 of 16 games (or 12 of 20 games, counting the playoffs). This year's Steelers defense currently has zero shutouts, and has held their opponents to single digit points in 3 of 14 games thus far. Also, that Ravens defense forced 49 turnovers in 16 games. So far, the Steelers defense has forced 27 in 14 games. So, really, as great as this year's Steelers defense has been, they are not even close to being as great as that Ravens defense was. Not even close.

What if they dominate and do very well but the offense cannot muster enough to help win it all. Are they not in the conversation then?

It depends on many factors. Their points allowed total for the season already puts them behind some of the best defenses ever, though.

To say it isn't even close is crazy. The '06 Ravens have a good argument for being a better defense.'00 Ravens: 165 points allowed, 1 safety, 1 touchdown = 156 net points'06 Ravens: 201 points allowed, 2 safeties, 6 touchdowns = 155 net points

 

[roadkill1292]

This past Sunday I was more surprised by and impressed with the coverage abilities of the Stillers' secondary than anything else. They were in Clayton's and Mason's shirts all night.

 

[Die]

I thought it would be interesting to look at the Top Defense in terms of % of total possible yards allowed by defense only. Basically I took a defenses yards allowed on defense and divided that by the # of drives against X (100- Avg Starting Field Position Against):

Team	Total TO go	Yards Al	% AllowedPIT	7106.34	2116.50	0.29783264BAL	7240.98	2330.70	0.321876321MIN	7628.91	2498.28	0.327475354TB	 7490.16	2500.84	0.333883388TEN	7684.50	2571.31	0.334609929NYG	6955.20	2342.40	0.336783989PHI	7784.70	2662.00	0.341952805CAR	7280.76	2507.16	0.344354161CHI	8028.54	2865.33	0.356893034WAS	6869.45	2465.25	0.358871525

And even then, this doesn't give you a great picture. For one, field position matters. There is a difference in difficulty in gaining yards when an offense is backed up against its own goalline, is between the 20s, and when it is in the red zone. The score matters as well. If its a blowout, some starters may be rested, or they may play some sort of prevent. Its just really difficult to get this precise in grading defenses because there are too many significant variables. The season is so short that these variables actually matter a great deal.

 

[The_Man]

This year's Steelers D is excellent and clearly one of the best of the decade. But a lot of that all-time talk started because "They're #1 across the board."

Well, now they're not. Which is good, because it allows the focus to shift away from all-time greatness, because they're not that yet, either.

People forget how great the 2000 Ravens really were -- fewest points ever, complete post-season domination, and -- most impressive to me -- the only team to give up under 1,000 yards rushing in a 16-game season. To give up 60 yards per game for an entire season is incredible.

Neither of those are true. And the Steelers are pretty much #1 across the board.

Want to point me in the direction of the teams that gave up fewer points in a 16-game season, or gave up under 1,000 rushing yards? Also, "pretty much #1" isn't the same as #1. My memory (which isn't always right) is that you've crapped on the 2000 Ravens in the past because they ended up finishing #2 in pass D after Testaverde passed for 400+ yards on 70 attempts (along with 2 lost fumbles and 3 INTs) in a Week 17 loss at Baltimore.

 

[Chase Stuart]

This year's Steelers D is excellent and clearly one of the best of the decade. But a lot of that all-time talk started because "They're #1 across the board."

Well, now they're not. Which is good, because it allows the focus to shift away from all-time greatness, because they're not that yet, either.

People forget how great the 2000 Ravens really were -- fewest points ever, complete post-season domination, and -- most impressive to me -- the only team to give up under 1,000 yards rushing in a 16-game season. To give up 60 yards per game for an entire season is incredible.

Neither of those are true. And the Steelers are pretty much #1 across the board.

Want to point me in the direction of the teams that gave up fewer points in a 16-game season, or gave up under 1,000 rushing yards? Also, "pretty much #1" isn't the same as #1. My memory (which isn't always right) is that you've crapped on the 2000 Ravens in the past because they ended up finishing #2 in pass D after Testaverde passed for 400+ yards on 70 attempts (along with 2 lost fumbles and 3 INTs) in a Week 17 loss at Baltimore.

The Atlanta Falcons in 1977 gave up fewer points total and fewer points per game. Technically, the '68 Colts did as well. The '06 Vikings allowed 985 rushing yards.When you say #1 across the board, what exactly do you mean? What stats are you talking about?

I'm not crapping on the Ravens defense; I'm just saying they're better than 99% of all defenses, but maybe not 100%. That's not exactly crapping on them. And yes, their pass D was quite a bit worse than other great pass Ds.

The '02 Bucs had more sacks, more INTs, allowed fewer passing TDs and fewer passing yards. That was a historically great pass defense.

 

[Tau837]

As for the football climate, changes in the passing rules hadn't been invoked yet so passing totals were low (the early to mid 70s saw very low passing totals). In 1977, Drew Pearson led the league with 870 receiving yards. That certainly went a long way in teams allowing fewer points.

I missed this thread the first time around, and as I read through it this is exactly what I was thinking. Comparing defenses from 1983 on to defenses before that time is apples and oranges. (It was 1983 when they made the rule changes to open up the passing game, right?)I have been watching football since the late 70s. IMO the best defense I have ever seen play is the 1985 Bears.

 

[Die]

The best I've seen is the 2000 Ravens. I remember they had two massive DTs fronting their defense in Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa. They were two mountains that just destroyed the blocking and the Ravens LBs could clean up. Absolutely no-one could run against them that year. In their first playoff game they drew the Broncos, who at the time had featured Mike Anderson who was having his huge season of 1500 yards and 15 TDs. He did absolutely nothing against that front. Nothing. He was worthless. They made everyone one-dimensional and then wrecked the passing game.