Cardinals LBs (1 Viewer)

[Colts Rule!]

So, with Gerald Hayes coming off PUP I've heard Lenon shifts over to the weak side and Washington is the odd man out with Hayes moving into the SILB slot. Can we assume Lenon keeps up his strong tackle numbers? How should we value these 3 guys for the rest of 2010?

 

[smashingsilver]

It might take Hayes a couple of weeks to get up to speed (in game shape), so we might see him and Washington share a lot of snaps early. By late in the season, however, I would expect to see Hayes and Washington getting the majority of snaps. Lenon should be good for a few more weeks, though.

 

[Pick]

Is Haggans' job safe? He's been producing lately.

 

[Colts Rule!]

Is Haggans' job safe? He's been producing lately.

I would think Hayes coming back has little to no effect on Haggans. It just adds that 3rd guy into the inside backer rotation. Hayes will take numbers from Lenon and/or Washington but how much from which guy/s is to be seen. So, who's likely to play nickel? Lenon has been. Will Hayes take that once he gets up to full speed?

 

[Sleeperz]

I think people are writing off Lenon way to quick here. The hope for Washington owners is he takes over at some point and plays every down. It is very hard to see that happening when his playtime has actually been sporatic so far this year and Lenon is on the field for every single play. How is that going to help him when Hayes comes back? If anything it adds more confusion. lenon is playing very well right now and was a big part of why the Cards pulled off the win last week. Even the coaching staff has mentioned that they are happy with what he is doing on the field. I honestly can't see them benching him at this point unless he plays himself out of the job. Washington taking over for Lenon in the next couple of weeks is pure speculation at this point in the season. Who know how Hayes is going to look once he is back. Noone knows what is going to happen. The staff thought that would happen before the season began but they also didn't realize that Lenon was going to be playing like this either. He has been a great leader since called upon to do so.

Everyone is still waiting for Rey Maualuga to take over the MLB spot in Cinci. Even though talent-wise he is much better than Jones, it just doesn't look like its going to happen anytime soon. Veteran leadership is valued much higher than skills by some coaching staffs. Not saying I agree, but its there for sure.

 

[CowboysHomer]

Lenon's been man on fire so far. Arizona would be dumb to pull him for someone else.

 

[Colts Rule!]

I think people are writing off Lenon way to quick here. The hope for Washington owners is he takes over at some point and plays every down. It is very hard to see that happening when his playtime has actually been sporatic so far this year and Lenon is on the field for every single play. How is that going to help him when Hayes comes back? If anything it adds more confusion. lenon is playing very well right now and was a big part of why the Cards pulled off the win last week. Even the coaching staff has mentioned that they are happy with what he is doing on the field. I honestly can't see them benching him at this point unless he plays himself out of the job. Washington taking over for Lenon in the next couple of weeks is pure speculation at this point in the season. Who know how Hayes is going to look once he is back. Noone knows what is going to happen. The staff thought that would happen before the season began but they also didn't realize that Lenon was going to be playing like this either. He has been a great leader since called upon to do so.Everyone is still waiting for Rey Maualuga to take over the MLB spot in Cinci. Even though talent-wise he is much better than Jones, it just doesn't look like its going to happen anytime soon. Veteran leadership is valued much higher than skills by some coaching staffs. Not saying I agree, but its there for sure.

Good stuff man. Thanks. Pretty much just what I'm thinking too. The guy that's performing and is trusted by coaches is who plays. So far that's Lenon.

 

[Jene Bramel]

So, with Gerald Hayes coming off PUP I've heard Lenon shifts over to the weak side and Washington is the odd man out with Hayes moving into the SILB slot. Can we assume Lenon keeps up his strong tackle numbers? How should we value these 3 guys for the rest of 2010?

I haven't seen any specific speculation on this, other than a brief comment from Whisenhunt in this week's press conference that he'd like to get Hayes into a rotation to give Lenon a few snaps off.When Hayes is deemed healthy enough to play, he's very likely to go back to his usual role as the base defensive SILB. Past that, it's still up in the air. Lenon is currently playing in the dime packages and that's likely to continue. I'm again not particularly impressed with Lenon's play, but the veteran status quo will stick as long as Lenon doesn't totally implode and the Cardinals are still in the playoff hunt.

 

[CowboysHomer]

I'm again not particularly impressed with Lenon's play, but the veteran status quo will stick as long as Lenon doesn't totally implode and the Cardinals are still in the playoff hunt.

I would love to hear why you're not impressed with Lenon's play. He's leading the team in tackles and tied for second on the team in sacks.

 

[Jene Bramel]

I'm again not particularly impressed with Lenon's play, but the veteran status quo will stick as long as Lenon doesn't totally implode and the Cardinals are still in the playoff hunt.

I would love to hear why you're not impressed with Lenon's play. He's leading the team in tackles and tied for second on the team in sacks.

Not impressive in the sense that he's not dynamic or above-average in run support, coverage or pass rush. He should be leading the team in tackles, he has many more ILB snaps than Daryl Washington. If tackle numbers without context are the measuring stick, then, on a per snap basis, I think there's an argument that Washington's 27 solos are more impressive than Lenon's 35. And he has one sack, tied with five others behind Clark Haggans' two, and it's the only QH he's been given credit for to date.Still, I don't mean to mislead and say that Lenon is far below replacement level talent and that he hasn't earned his current role. It's just that I see him as closer to a Dhani Jones or Channing Crowder type player.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I'm again not particularly impressed with Lenon's play, but the veteran status quo will stick as long as Lenon doesn't totally implode and the Cardinals are still in the playoff hunt.

I would love to hear why you're not impressed with Lenon's play. He's leading the team in tackles and tied for second on the team in sacks.

Not impressive in the sense that he's not dynamic or above-average in run support, coverage or pass rush. He should be leading the team in tackles, he has many more ILB snaps than Daryl Washington. If tackle numbers without context are the measuring stick, then, on a per snap basis, I think there's an argument that Washington's 27 solos are more impressive than Lenon's 35. And he has one sack, tied with five others behind Clark Haggans' two, and it's the only QH he's been given credit for to date.Still, I don't mean to mislead and say that Lenon is far below replacement level talent and that he hasn't earned his current role. It's just that I see him as closer to a Dhani Jones or Channing Crowder type player.

Lenon is a journeyman. I watched him play for 4 years in Green Bay, and he didn't demonstrate above-average talent during the entire 4 years. The only reason he became a starter for Detroit is because he was playing for the worst franchise in the NFL. And from watching him play this season, I don't see any meaningful evidence to change my view -- which makes sense, given that he's 32 years old (turning 33 in about a month).

 

[Colts Rule!]

I'm again not particularly impressed with Lenon's play, but the veteran status quo will stick as long as Lenon doesn't totally implode and the Cardinals are still in the playoff hunt.

I would love to hear why you're not impressed with Lenon's play. He's leading the team in tackles and tied for second on the team in sacks.

Not impressive in the sense that he's not dynamic or above-average in run support, coverage or pass rush. He should be leading the team in tackles, he has many more ILB snaps than Daryl Washington. If tackle numbers without context are the measuring stick, then, on a per snap basis, I think there's an argument that Washington's 27 solos are more impressive than Lenon's 35. And he has one sack, tied with five others behind Clark Haggans' two, and it's the only QH he's been given credit for to date.Still, I don't mean to mislead and say that Lenon is far below replacement level talent and that he hasn't earned his current role. It's just that I see him as closer to a Dhani Jones or Channing Crowder type player.

Lenon is a journeyman. I watched him play for 4 years in Green Bay, and he didn't demonstrate above-average talent during the entire 4 years. The only reason he became a starter for Detroit is because he was playing for the worst franchise in the NFL. And from watching him play this season, I don't see any meaningful evidence to change my view -- which makes sense, given that he's 32 years old (turning 33 in about a month).

But what we're mostly talking about here is opportunity and ability to produce when given the opportunity from a statistical perspective. Lenon got the opportunity as an every down backer and has produced from a fantasy perspective. This lends me to believe that either he will keep the opportunity and continue to produce similar numbers all year or he will lose the opportunity to one of the other backers. Or, all 3 guys drag each other down. If I were to rephrase my original post it would be into this mold. How will the Cardinal backers shake out the rest of the season from a fantasy perspective? All 3 have the potential to produce given the opportunity I think.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Lenon is a journeyman. I watched him play for 4 years in Green Bay, and he didn't demonstrate above-average talent during the entire 4 years. The only reason he became a starter for Detroit is because he was playing for the worst franchise in the NFL. And from watching him play this season, I don't see any meaningful evidence to change my view -- which makes sense, given that he's 32 years old (turning 33 in about a month).

But what we're mostly talking about here is opportunity and ability to produce when given the opportunity from a statistical perspective. Lenon got the opportunity as an every down backer and has produced from a fantasy perspective. This lends me to believe that either he will keep the opportunity and continue to produce similar numbers all year or he will lose the opportunity to one of the other backers. Or, all 3 guys drag each other down. If I were to rephrase my original post it would be into this mold. How will the Cardinal backers shake out the rest of the season from a fantasy perspective? All 3 have the potential to produce given the opportunity I think.

I don't know how else to answer the question --- we don't know what the Arizona coaches are thinking, so the primary evidence that we can use is conflicting. Lenon doesn't look particularly talented, but on the flip side he has been decently productive. I'm interested to hear what Cards homers think. Consider me extremely skeptical about Lenon.

 

[Colts Rule!]

Lenon is a journeyman. I watched him play for 4 years in Green Bay, and he didn't demonstrate above-average talent during the entire 4 years. The only reason he became a starter for Detroit is because he was playing for the worst franchise in the NFL. And from watching him play this season, I don't see any meaningful evidence to change my view -- which makes sense, given that he's 32 years old (turning 33 in about a month).

But what we're mostly talking about here is opportunity and ability to produce when given the opportunity from a statistical perspective. Lenon got the opportunity as an every down backer and has produced from a fantasy perspective. This lends me to believe that either he will keep the opportunity and continue to produce similar numbers all year or he will lose the opportunity to one of the other backers. Or, all 3 guys drag each other down. If I were to rephrase my original post it would be into this mold. How will the Cardinal backers shake out the rest of the season from a fantasy perspective? All 3 have the potential to produce given the opportunity I think.

I don't know how else to answer the question --- we don't know what the Arizona coaches are thinking, so the primary evidence that we can use is conflicting. Lenon doesn't look particularly talented, but on the flip side he has been decently productive. I'm interested to hear what Cards homers think. Consider me extremely skeptical about Lenon.

I'm with you there. I'm skeptical on Lenon and would love to hear Cards homer takes. I owned both Lenon and Hayes in a deep dyno league and found a buyer on Lenon so I parted with him but I still hold Hayes. Thinking he's got better long range value and Lenon likely has little to none.

 

[TheArchitect]

We definitely need to hear from some Cards homers, which I am not. But, I noticed in this entire thread that no one mentioned (or speculated) on where the Cards want to go with their LB corp... yes, Lenon has had huge opportunity and produced strong fantasy numbers. But, most importantly, he has provided much needed leadership on the inside while Hayes has been out. How valuable is he to the team once Hayes is back 100%?

When Jene suggests that Lenon is a marginal talent, what I actually hear is that there's potentially not much keeping him on the field once Hayes is 100%. Disclaimer: I have Washington stashed in a 16-team re-draft, so maybe it's just wishful thinking. But, it sounds to me that Hayes and Washington are the better talents and who the team wants to see there in the future. I agree with the Dhani analogy above, but just not sure they need Lenon's leadership once Hayes is back. The coaches like what Lenon has been able to do, but do they not think that Hayes would have/will do the same thing, given the opportunity?

I'd also be interested in hearing from someone who can comment on the relative pass coverage skills of these 3 guys. Finally, if the Cards start losing (and Washington can cover), I think we'll see a lot more of Washington down the stretch. As a 3-down backer, he could be huge.

That's just my 2 cents

Thoughts?

 

[RespektMyGangsta]

Shark Move = pickup Hayes off your wire, deal Lenon NOW!

I got Beanie Wells for Lenon and Desmond Bishop today.

 

[The Man With No Name]

Hayes had been a 2 down backer the past couple seasons so I have no idea what will happen with him if he is going to be a starter for Arizona.

 

[Jene Bramel]

Ideally:

Hayes = Healthy base defensive plugging SILB in the mold of a Bradie James/Andra Davis, then sits in the nickel

Lenon = Valuable veteran backup and possible nickel backer

Washington = Dynamic every-down WILB

I probably didn't communicate it clearly enough above, but I think the decision -- when Hayes is healthy enough to play -- depends on two factors.

1. Is Daryl Washington ready to play in the nickel?

Today, the coaching staff is telling us by sitting him for Lenon in the dime packages that Washington isn't yet ready. We know from Whisenhunt's post-draft comments that they strongly believe Washington will be that guy in the future, but he must not be fully trustworthy yet. As soon as he is deemed ready mentally, he'll be the every-down WILB.

2. Are the Cardinals in contention?

As long as the answer to question one is NO, Paris Lenon will probably get the majority of the WILB snaps if the Cardinals are in contention. I would guess that the Cardinals would do a three man rotation on base downs, with Lenon filling in for Hayes at times at SILB and splitting WILB snaps with Washington. Lenon would still be the primary subpackage linebacker in the dime.

If and when the Cardinals fall out of playoff contention, I think it's very likely that Washington starts getting more time in the nickel and learns on the field.

With the Cardinals 3-2 and in the horrid NFC West, I'd proceed under the expectation that Lenon will see 80-90% of the snaps, Hayes 30-50% and Washington 40-70% depending on how many subpackage snaps are necessary in any given game.