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Carolina and the wishbone (1 Viewer)

Raider Nation

Raider Nation

Devil's Advocate
For those unfamiliar with the wishbone, take a look at the formation on paper.

Cam under center. Tolbert right behind him as the FB. Williams and Stewart as dual tailbacks.

:eek:

Sorry, this is no Wildcat. This would be destruction. "But NFL defenses have too much speed ... blah blah blah." I'll believe a defense can regularly shut down those four cats on the ground when I see it. Plus, this one would incorporate so much more than Barry Switzer's throw once per quarter philosophy with his wishbone at Oklahoma. If the threat of Cam keeping and getting to the edge with his legs isn't enough, he can still throw deep to Steve Smith.

Coaches don't like to deviate from the norm unless it's absolutely necessary. I get it. But you can't tell me that Carolina's offensive personnel wouldn't kick ### and take names running this formation. They already have Cam running portions of his spread offense from Auburn, so I'm not sure they even want to explore more packages at this point. But still, defenses are all geared up to stop high-powered passing games. When everyone else zigs, you zag. Keep 'em guessing!

Now we just gotta sell Cam on the fact that his stats will suffer. :mellow:

 
We ran the bone in high school as our primary formation.

I've always thought with the right personnel it could be a successfull complimentary formation in the NFL. You can run lots of power and misdirection.

How bout doing an audible to the bone? Maybe have TE move to FB, and slot reciever move to TB.

How bout the Vikes with Webb, Rudolph, ADP/Gerhart, and Harvin runnin the bone!?

 
'Manster said:
We ran the bone in high school as our primary formation.

I've always thought with the right personnel it could be a successfull complimentary formation in the NFL. You can run lots of power and misdirection.

How bout doing an audible to the bone? Maybe have TE move to FB, and slot reciever move to TB.

How bout the Vikes with Webb, Rudolph, ADP/Gerhart, and Harvin runnin the bone!?
Click to expand...
Yep. I'm convinced it would work with the right parts. There are so many big, athletic QBs now who are capable of pulling this off. I'm in no way suggesting a steady diet of this one formation, BTW. I would just like to see it as a big chunk of the playbook in the right situations.
 
'Raider Nation said:
For those unfamiliar with the wishbone, take a look at the formation on paper.

Cam under center. Tolbert right behind him as the FB. Williams and Stewart as dual tailbacks.

:eek:

Sorry, this is no Wildcat. This would be destruction. "But NFL defenses have too much speed ... blah blah blah." I'll believe a defense can regularly shut down those four cats on the ground when I see it. Plus, this one would incorporate so much more than Barry Switzer's throw once per quarter philosophy with his wishbone at Oklahoma. If the threat of Cam keeping and getting to the edge with his legs isn't enough, he can still throw deep to Steve Smith.

Coaches don't like to deviate from the norm unless it's absolutely necessary. I get it. But you can't tell me that Carolina's offensive personnel wouldn't kick ### and take names running this formation. They already have Cam running portions of his spread offense from Auburn, so I'm not sure they even want to explore more packages at this point. But still, defenses are all geared up to stop high-powered passing games. When everyone else zigs, you zag. Keep 'em guessing!

Now we just gotta sell Cam on the fact that his stats will suffer. :mellow:

Click to expand...
It isn't that it wouldn't work in certain spots but if you ran that as your primary offense you would have to look for a quarterback every 3 years because of the wear and tear on them. I don't think general managers and owners want to do that with the kind of money the position demands.

 
Georgia Tech runs this offense, and they have pretty good success in the regular season, particularly against non-elite teams. Not so much against the elite teams, which tend to have faster and better defenses that adjust and react more quickly. And not much postseason success, attributed to opponents having more time to prepare.

And I think it would actually be harder to succeed with it in the NFL.

 
Nfl teams need to strongly consider this as an option. Basically there is a handful of QBs in the league that can carry a team to the Superbowl. If youre a team that doesn't have one of these elite QBsyou really don't have a chance.

So with that in mind, I think teams would be better off building a stone wall defense, and a run run run, ball control Offense that keeps QBs like Ridgers and Breese off the field.

You go grab a RB /QB to play your QB position every year and keep building. You grab Eric Crotch, Randel El, Teabow, Seneca Wallace, Joe Web, Matt Jones, Tyrell Pryor or the countless running QBs coming out every year

More and more of these QBs Are being produced in college ball every year.

 
i dont get what the advantage of having the 2nd rb as opposed to a te, whois a better blocker, or a wr, who would keep the defense spread out.

double smith, put 9 in the box and use keys to determine who covers who if its a pass. (who ever goes right, the ss covers). no real mismatches here either. i would think an average saftey can cover dwill adequately.

so you sacrifice a blocker and gain 1-2 extra defenders in the box. thats a loss for the offense.

i'd guess the advantage comes from faking to stew and handing it off to dwill, stuff like that. the thing about that is when you want to incorporate fakes in a play, it slows the development of the play down.

another thing, not every defender just watches the running back. usually they watch for how the lineman block, or if a guard pulls, they follow him right to the play. most of the time, these fake handoffs will have little effect other than freezing the contain men, who are not suppose to follow the ball anyway.

 
'flc735 said:
i dont get what the advantage of having the 2nd rb as opposed to a te, who is a better blocker, or a wr, who would keep the defense spread out.
Click to expand...
I'm just thinking as far as Carolina's specific personnel is concerned. No matter which way you run the play, you have a stud RB carrying the rock. Not to mention having to tackle Newton on a keeper or the human bowling ball Tolbert up the A gap.But I'm not against tinkering with the players/formation. Anything to make it more difficult on the defense.
 
'loqutis said:
Nfl teams need to strongly consider this as an option. Basically there is a handful of QBs in the league that can carry a team to the Superbowl. If youre a team that doesn't have one of these elite QBsyou really don't have a chance.

So with that in mind, I think teams would be better off building a stone wall defense, and a run run run, ball control Offense that keeps QBs like Ridgers and Breese off the field.

You go grab a RB /QB to play your QB position every year and keep building. You grab Eric Crotch, Randel El, Teabow, Seneca Wallace, Joe Web, Matt Jones, Tyrell Pryor or the countless running QBs coming out every year

More and more of these QBs Are being produced in college ball every year.
Click to expand...
Not sure if that was on purpose but it was Eric Crouch :lmao:
 
'flc735 said:
i dont get what the advantage of having the 2nd rb as opposed to a te, whois a better blocker, or a wr, who would keep the defense spread out.

double smith, put 9 in the box and use keys to determine who covers who if its a pass. (who ever goes right, the ss covers). no real mismatches here either. i would think an average saftey can cover dwill adequately.

so you sacrifice a blocker and gain 1-2 extra defenders in the box. thats a loss for the offense.

i'd guess the advantage comes from faking to stew and handing it off to dwill, stuff like that. the thing about that is when you want to incorporate fakes in a play, it slows the development of the play down.

another thing, not every defender just watches the running back. usually they watch for how the lineman block, or if a guard pulls, they follow him right to the play. most of the time, these fake handoffs will have little effect other than freezing the contain men, who are not suppose to follow the ball anyway.
Click to expand...
If you double Smith and put 9 in the box, then who is covering the 2nd WR on the opposite side? Guess it is a TD pass to LaFell every play, huh? :)
 
'flc735 said:
i dont get what the advantage of having the 2nd rb as opposed to a te, whois a better blocker, or a wr, who would keep the defense spread out.double smith, put 9 in the box and use keys to determine who covers who if its a pass. (who ever goes right, the ss covers). no real mismatches here either. i would think an average saftey can cover dwill adequately.so you sacrifice a blocker and gain 1-2 extra defenders in the box. thats a loss for the offense.i'd guess the advantage comes from faking to stew and handing it off to dwill, stuff like that. the thing about that is when you want to incorporate fakes in a play, it slows the development of the play down. another thing, not every defender just watches the running back. usually they watch for how the lineman block, or if a guard pulls, they follow him right to the play. most of the time, these fake handoffs will have little effect other than freezing the contain men, who are not suppose to follow the ball anyway.
Click to expand...
I don't know. The fake handoffs worked well for Denver with Tebow and McGahee last year.
 
I would like this idea a whole lot better if instead of Tolber at FB they had a Vonta Leach or someone like that who is a great blocker/bruising style of player. Tolbert is almost more of a HB playing FB to me, which is not perfect for the Wishbone.

It would be fun to watch if they did it though, that is for sure.

 
One of the things that would make this effective is that both Stewart and Williams have enough bulk to handle blocking (same for Tolbert).

Off the top of my head you could run the following plays... a few of which really aren't much different from doing it out of say I-Formation except the FB/TBs are closer to the LOS.

01: FB Dive (Tolbert)

02: TB Dive (Williams or Stewart)

03: Zone Read (Newton gives to either TB, reads crashing DE from TB side) into a Zone Read Pass

04: Triple Option (either option to Tolbert or option to either TB) into a TO Pass

Probably wouldn't make a great formation the entire game but as a group of package plays, it could be pretty effective for a single drive or around the 30 yard line driving to the end zone on a long drive to wear the D down further.

 
Sorry, but this would be a huge failure.

If a NFL defense knows there's a very large probability that you will run, good luck running for more than 2-3 yards on the play. I don't care how tricky you think having 4 running options would be...the defense will recognize who has the ball in about 1 second flat and ignore the others. You do realize that only one of those 4 guys can run the ball, right? Having 3 decoys out there wouldn't be nearly as effective as you think, especially considering the players you're taking off the field that would be more suited to run the given play. Not to mention that those decoys would be getting tired and risking injury during every play.

Passing is getting more and more effective every season, as evidenced by the number of QBs racking up massing passing yards these days. NFL teams have realized that with the current rules, passing is the best way to score points. Running the wishbone in the NFL is like writing a paper using a typewriter when there's a perfectly good CPU sitting next to it...there's a reason it's ignored in the pro game.

The element of surprise is what allows an NFL offense to have the advantage over a defense. They could pass or run on almost any play and that's a HUGE advantage. You're basically throwing this out the window when you show a defense that you'll run 90% of the time. When you do finally pass the ball (since you'll likely be facing 3rd and 5 every time), good luck finding an open receiver when Steve Smith is the only one going downfield because your other WR's are replaced by run-blocking TE's and an extra RB.

Trust me, with the NFL being a multi-billion dollar business and some of the best football minds in the world coaching these teams (i.e. Belichick), they have fully considered and dismissed the wishbone after realizing quickly that it has no merit in the NFL.

 
As awesome as it sounds in theory, I feel it'd flounder much like the Wildcat did after Ronnie Brown ate up 42tds in one game.

 
'Warrior said:
Sorry, but this would be a huge failure. If a NFL defense knows there's a very large probability that you will run, good luck running for more than 2-3 yards on the play. I don't care how tricky you think having 4 running options would be...the defense will recognize who has the ball in about 1 second flat and ignore the others. You do realize that only one of those 4 guys can run the ball, right? Having 3 decoys out there wouldn't be nearly as effective as you think, especially considering the players you're taking off the field that would be more suited to run the given play. Not to mention that those decoys would be getting tired and risking injury during every play.Passing is getting more and more effective every season, as evidenced by the number of QBs racking up massing passing yards these days. NFL teams have realized that with the current rules, passing is the best way to score points. Running the wishbone in the NFL is like writing a paper using a typewriter when there's a perfectly good CPU sitting next to it...there's a reason it's ignored in the pro game.The element of surprise is what allows an NFL offense to have the advantage over a defense. They could pass or run on almost any play and that's a HUGE advantage. You're basically throwing this out the window when you show a defense that you'll run 90% of the time. When you do finally pass the ball (since you'll likely be facing 3rd and 5 every time), good luck finding an open receiver when Steve Smith is the only one going downfield because your other WR's are replaced by run-blocking TE's and an extra RB.Trust me, with the NFL being a multi-billion dollar business and some of the best football minds in the world coaching these teams (i.e. Belichick), they have fully considered and dismissed the wishbone after realizing quickly that it has no merit in the NFL.
Click to expand...
1: Denver seemed to do pretty well running the ball last season and went 7-4 under Tebow's I Formation/Option oriented offense. Finished 1st in rushing offense and had a team YPC of 4.8. Worth noting is that Cam is similar in size and stature.2: Defenders still have to pause to recognize who has the ball though. That alone negates any immediate advantage. They may have "1 second" to see that Stewart has the ball but if Cam fakes to Tolbert first, the defenders still have to respect the fact that Tolbert may have the ball for 1 second or however long it takes.3: None of us are advocating running the Wishbone for an entire game or an entire season. As a Wildcat type package, given the right weapons and right utilization, it could be effective. The issues with the Wildcat weren't the players but the playcallers. The guys who followed up Miami essentially used the Wildcat as almost 98% a shotgun snap run to the RB as "QB". This fools nobody and it doesn't help that it's run maybe 1-2 times a game and is always the same exact play. There is ZERO element of surprise.4: You're assuming the target of the downfield pass won't be 1-1 covered and that teams won't try to pass on 1st or 2nd down. Also you're forgetting that the RBs themselves also serve as pass catching options and you're ignoring the effectiveness of running the ball constantly. ANY coach will tell you that if a team runs the ball 4-5 straight times, that opens up the play action game (precisely because the safety starts to creep up expecting the run). Why would it matter what formation that is done out of?
 
Why not just run it instead of a traditional goal line formation? Not the whole game, just inside the 5

 
'Raider Nation said:
'Manster said:
We ran the bone in high school as our primary formation.

I've always thought with the right personnel it could be a successfull complimentary formation in the NFL. You can run lots of power and misdirection.

How bout doing an audible to the bone? Maybe have TE move to FB, and slot reciever move to TB.

How bout the Vikes with Webb, Rudolph, ADP/Gerhart, and Harvin runnin the bone!?
Click to expand...
Yep. I'm convinced it would work with the right parts. There are so many big, athletic QBs now who are capable of pulling this off. I'm in no way suggesting a steady diet of this one formation, BTW. I would just like to see it as a big chunk of the playbook in the right situations.
Click to expand...
Check this part of the video and make sure:http://youtu.be/Wpg-E0ybBTA?t=2m54s

 
The reason few colleges at any level (much less major colleges) run pure triple option football anymore is that it is pretty easy to defend. there are limits to the pasing game just by having 3RB (even if broken out onthe wing like GT). On a regualr basis most high level college and pro defense close too fast even if there is a breakdown in discipline. It does not matter how "talented" the offensive pieces are it won't work as game in- game out system. See the Wildcat.

Side note: i can tell we are in the NFL's dead period. We have had QBs punting, the wishobone and a couple of similiar threads I am choosing to forget. Training camp can't get here fast enough.

 
'Clifford said:
'Raider Nation said:
'Manster said:
We ran the bone in high school as our primary formation.

I've always thought with the right personnel it could be a successfull complimentary formation in the NFL. You can run lots of power and misdirection.

How bout doing an audible to the bone? Maybe have TE move to FB, and slot reciever move to TB.

How bout the Vikes with Webb, Rudolph, ADP/Gerhart, and Harvin runnin the bone!?
Click to expand...
Yep. I'm convinced it would work with the right parts. There are so many big, athletic QBs now who are capable of pulling this off. I'm in no way suggesting a steady diet of this one formation, BTW. I would just like to see it as a big chunk of the playbook in the right situations.
Click to expand...
Check this part of the video and make sure:http://youtu.be/Wpg-E0ybBTA?t=2m54s
Click to expand...
Well, that settles that.
 
'coolnerd said:
The reason few colleges at any level (much less major colleges) run pure triple option football anymore is that it is pretty easy to defend. there are limits to the pasing game just by having 3RB (even if broken out onthe wing like GT). On a regualr basis most high level college and pro defense close too fast even if there is a breakdown in discipline. It does not matter how "talented" the offensive pieces are it won't work as game in- game out system. See the Wildcat. Side note: i can tell we are in the NFL's dead period. We have had QBs punting, the wishobone and a couple of similiar threads I am choosing to forget. Training camp can't get here fast enough.
Click to expand...
:goodposting:The wishbone is completely one dimensional. Any team wanting to incorporate the triple option into their offense could use the I, which is much more versatile. Also, NFL HBs simply can't block NFL OLBs which is necessary in the 'bone. Better to use an extra TE or two if you want to run power and attack the edge. The wishbone has fallen out of favor for a reason.
 
'Coeur de Lion said:
'coolnerd said:
The reason few colleges at any level (much less major colleges) run pure triple option football anymore is that it is pretty easy to defend. there are limits to the pasing game just by having 3RB (even if broken out onthe wing like GT). On a regualr basis most high level college and pro defense close too fast even if there is a breakdown in discipline. It does not matter how "talented" the offensive pieces are it won't work as game in- game out system. See the Wildcat. Side note: i can tell we are in the NFL's dead period. We have had QBs punting, the wishobone and a couple of similiar threads I am choosing to forget. Training camp can't get here fast enough.
Click to expand...
:goodposting:The wishbone is completely one dimensional. Any team wanting to incorporate the triple option into their offense could use the I, which is much more versatile. Also, NFL HBs simply can't block NFL OLBs which is necessary in the 'bone. Better to use an extra TE or two if you want to run power and attack the edge. The wishbone has fallen out of favor for a reason.
Click to expand...
Also if the team that tried to run it would need a phenomenal defense or teams would play aggressively and get the score to where the wishbone team would have to go to drop it to catch up.The Dolphins with the wildcat seemed to have trouble when they got down two scores.
 
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