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I get the point you are trying to make, but have two problems.1) What is the "mess" you are referring to with Eli?
To reply to this post, absolutely.There's maybe 5-10 teams every year that try to pick a franchise QB in the draft. Most fail. The Giants got one and that's what they wanted with that pick. Rivers isn't winning now because the Chargers made a trade. He wins because of his teammates and coaches, what he's learned, his talent and ability....but not because he was drafted.Those QBs are just one piece to a 53 piece puzzle. I'm sure each team is glad they got that one piece.
(snipped)I don't think he should have made it.Vinatieri has played less games and has as many FGs.
I've got to go with Colin here. As was pointed out in an earlier post, the trade was for Rivers and picks, not Rivers, Merriman and Keading. It was the fortuitous selections that make this currently lopsided.
And Eli has had Tiki Barber, one of the best RB's of the last five years, a top TE also in Shockey, and much better WR's than Rivers has. Given the overall package, I would say the skill positions players have been pretty even for Eli and Rivers (SD gets the edge at RB and TE, while NYG has had a huge edge at WR).80Giants10 said:
Are you suggesting that the Giants' front office is probably not smart enough to do as much with those picks as the Chargers did? The Giants have a lot of talent; why wouldn't they see it in the draft?
The Chargers definitely made the wrong call in drafting Leaf over Andre Wadsworth. (If it were anyone but Leaf, that would be sarcasm -- but in this case it's true). But they had no shot at Manning.It's hard to say whether trading up from #3 to #2 was a mistake. They gave up a lot. But if the Colts had taken Leaf, it would have been worth it. At the time of the trade, it was unknown which QB the Colts would take. The Chargers just wanted whichever one fell to number two.
When you have the expectations that Manning had/has, then he is underperforming, fair or not.When you showed some signed of greatness, especially in terms of "winning" (meaning come 4th quarter you just found a way to get your team to score) as Manning has in the past couple years and then have a season like this year when you dont progress but regress, you are underperforming (and that is all fair).I am not saying Manning sucks nor that he is a failure... but he is far below expectations, fair or not. He is also regressing this year which is a huge negative and that is completely fair to say.He may still have a higher ceiling than any of the other QBs mentioned, but he has peformed worse this year than he should have and has to be considered, at this early stage, a disappointment whom you wonder how good he can be...basically, Manning's biggest problem is his accuracy and that has not improved. He showed signed early this year and nothing since. As a Giants fan I am not panicking, I happen to really like Eli and hope he succeeds... but I am concerned. He is disappointing at this early stage of his career.
I actually think the trade was fairly even. If you just look at it as Rivers for Eli, the Chargers got the better end of the deal. Same result if you look at it as Merriman for Eli. But if you look at it as Kaeding for Eli, there's at least an argument that the Giants came out ahead. And if you look at it as Oben for Eli, the Giants almost certainly came out ahead.So overall, when you add it all up it's like 2-2, even-Steven.
I'll repeat what I said: It is far too early to determine a "winner." If you are happy prognosticating the fates of 4 players who are likely to play another combined 3 decades (or more) at the Pro level, go for it. But, your predictions ultimately will be proven grossly inaccurate.
I agree that Rivers has been in a better overall situation this year. The thing is, as far as we know, Rivers will enjoy the same situation in the foreseeable future, as LT, Gates, et al aren't going anywhere. In Eli's case, Tiki is going to retire... which makes it seem as if his situation is getting worse going forward.I already expected Rivers to separate himself from Eli over time, independent of their situations, because I think he is a better QB. The fact that Eli is losing Tiki will probably just accelerate the timetable for that.
so what? I don't think making extra points is an accomplishment
that's a fair argument
MT, didn't know you had it in ya.
