Church on Sunday (1 Viewer)

[shader]

Nowhere in the NT is 10% mentioned as an expected tithe number under the new covenant as it was under the covenant with Israel the nation. What the NT does say about giving is that it should be:

• Regular (1 Cor 16:2)
• Sacrificial (Mark 12:41-44)
• Cheerful (2 Cor 9:7)

Also, under the OT, total expected giving was closer to 25% than it was to 10%.

My church doesn't really keep tabs on who gives what.

That's a bit of a different conversation, but I can see reasonable arguments on both sides. On one side, it's hard for a pastor to not give preferential treatment to people he knows give a lot of money based on the practical economics of most churches (most of which are not wealthy at all, and really need the money.) On the other hand, if you are putting people into positions of leadership, it's nice to know where their heart is - and I wouldn't want someone in leadership who didn't have a servant's heart for the church - and I think it's basically impossible to have a servant's heart for the church and not give to it.

Does your church have a "standard" or expectation of giving? My boss is an evangelical presbyterian and the expected (before taxes) giving level is 10%.

That's INSANE to expect people to pay 10% of their salaries. Money-grubbing

 

[mon]

That's INSANE to expect people to pay 10% of their salaries. Money-grubbing

You think that's insane? Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell everything he owned and give it all to the poor.

 

[shader]

That's INSANE to expect people to pay 10% of their salaries. Money-grubbing

You think that's insane? Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell everything he owned and give it all to the poor.

So give 10% to the poor then. A bit different than expecting parishoners to give money that pays for the gymnasium, the million dollar church, shopping malls, church salaries, etc.

 

[mr roboto]

Re:giving, it's not unlike any other cause someone may believe in. Some give to animal rescue, some to politicAl organizations, others to charities with international focus. Church goers give to their churches because they believe in the message and mission of the church.

We just started a campaign to plant an outreach ministry center in a very economically disadvantaged part of the area. We are starting with a clothing donation store, and with programs to help young teen mothers with formula, diapers, child care. Our eventual goal is to plant a church and offer relationship counseling and other services to help those in need.

Our church's yearly operating budget is about 1.5 million (church of about 900 regular attendees). We raised 275,000 above that for this new initiative.

 

[shader]

Re:giving, it's not unlike any other cause someone may believe in. Some give to animal rescue, some to politicAl organizations, others to charities with international focus. Church goers give to their churches because they believe in the message and mission of the church.

We just started a campaign to plant an outreach ministry center in a very economically disadvantaged part of the area. We are starting with a clothing donation store, and with programs to help young teen mothers with formula, diapers, child care. Our eventual goal is to plant a church and offer relationship counseling and other services to help those in need.

Our church's yearly operating budget is about 1.5 million (church of about 900 regular attendees). We raised 275,000 above that for this new initiative.

That's fine and dandy. It's the "expecting" part that has no business taking place. It's quite unscriptural. Not saying you or your church does this, btw. This was just brought on due to some saying that they were "expected" to contribute a certain amount.

 

[mon]

That's INSANE to expect people to pay 10% of their salaries. Money-grubbing

You think that's insane? Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell everything he owned and give it all to the poor.

So give 10% to the poor then. A bit different than expecting parishoners to give money that pays for the gymnasium, the million dollar church, shopping malls, church salaries, etc.

I agree. Our church doesn't even ask for donations.

 

[mr roboto]

I agree shader, although if you had someone who had the means to give financially and was a believer, a strong member of the church community, and a leader, I do believe that giving if time, money and talents is a pattern in the NT. Not a specific # (I can't stand the 10% thing) and not if the person or family isn't able but the NT church did distribute to those who had need and did pay the ministers.

 

[msommer]

I don't go.

Born Catholic. Was an alter boy. Dad was a deacon. 2 aunts, nuns.

Just don't feel the need for organized religion. No problem with those who (other than those who kill in the name of Jesus or Allah etc.).

Be excellent to each other!

 

[shader]

I agree shader, although if you had someone who had the means to give financially and was a believer, a strong member of the church community, and a leader, I do believe that giving if time, money and talents is a pattern in the NT. Not a specific # (I can't stand the 10% thing) and not if the person or family isn't able but the NT church did distribute to those who had need and did pay the ministers.

The NT church paid the ministers? Paul was a tent-maker. While I'm sure many of the expenses for many of their duties were taken care of, I highly doubt they were paid a salary that allowed them to live a comfortable middle-class life. That came later on, though probably not much later (just a century or two).

 

[tikigods]

I go every week.

Because I'm the pastor.

I'm guessing Baptist.

Used to be. I was raised as a fundamentalist Baptist. When I was 30, I had a crisis of faith that led me away from fundamentalism and to a much different kind of expression of my faith in Jesus.

Are fundamentalist Baptists like the Westboro people?

The Westboro people are the only people like the Westboro people. Fundamentalist Baptists are more like the duck dynasty people. Very Republican, very traditional, and have a tendency to worship the way things were in the 50's. They generally adhere less to a historical confession or Creed, and more to a modern evangelical way of reading the Bible.

How would you characterize the people of the Westboro church? It sounds like they are like the Fundamentalist Baptists but a little more forceful in getting their opinion out there.

Am I way off?

I don't know anything about their theology, except what it results in. Though I'm not a fundie, I'm not going to insult them by making a Westboro connection. Those guys aren't a church. They're a money making endeavor for attorneys.

Sounds about right.

 

[mr roboto]

I agree shader, although if you had someone who had the means to give financially and was a believer, a strong member of the church community, and a leader, I do believe that giving if time, money and talents is a pattern in the NT. Not a specific # (I can't stand the 10% thing) and not if the person or family isn't able but the NT church did distribute to those who had need and did pay the ministers.

The NT church paid the ministers? Paul was a tent-maker. While I'm sure many of the expenses for many of their duties were taken care of, I highly doubt they were paid a salary that allowed them to live a comfortable middle-class life. That came later on, though probably not much later (just a century or two).

Im not in a position to look this up but I believe Paul himself said he had the right to collect from the churches. And yes, I do believe that the local pastors were provided for somehow so they didn't have to supplement their income. Paul is a poor analogy to a local pastor's role anyway. He was first and foremost a missionary and evangelist.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Re:giving, it's not unlike any other cause someone may believe in. Some give to animal rescue, some to politicAl organizations, others to charities with international focus. Church goers give to their churches because they believe in the message and mission of the church.

We just started a campaign to plant an outreach ministry center in a very economically disadvantaged part of the area. We are starting with a clothing donation store, and with programs to help young teen mothers with formula, diapers, child care. Our eventual goal is to plant a church and offer relationship counseling and other services to help those in need.

Our church's yearly operating budget is about 1.5 million (church of about 900 regular attendees). We raised 275,000 above that for this new initiative.

'Look at all the stuff we'll give you if you worship Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour!'

 

[proninja]

Re:giving, it's not unlike any other cause someone may believe in. Some give to animal rescue, some to politicAl organizations, others to charities with international focus. Church goers give to their churches because they believe in the message and mission of the church.

We just started a campaign to plant an outreach ministry center in a very economically disadvantaged part of the area. We are starting with a clothing donation store, and with programs to help young teen mothers with formula, diapers, child care. Our eventual goal is to plant a church and offer relationship counseling and other services to help those in need.

Our church's yearly operating budget is about 1.5 million (church of about 900 regular attendees). We raised 275,000 above that for this new initiative.

'Look at all the stuff we'll give you if you worship Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour!'

Try "look at all this stuff we give you because Jesus Christ is our Lord and savior"

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Re:giving, it's not unlike any other cause someone may believe in. Some give to animal rescue, some to politicAl organizations, others to charities with international focus. Church goers give to their churches because they believe in the message and mission of the church.

We just started a campaign to plant an outreach ministry center in a very economically disadvantaged part of the area. We are starting with a clothing donation store, and with programs to help young teen mothers with formula, diapers, child care. Our eventual goal is to plant a church and offer relationship counseling and other services to help those in need.

Our church's yearly operating budget is about 1.5 million (church of about 900 regular attendees). We raised 275,000 above that for this new initiative.

'Look at all the stuff we'll give you if you worship Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour!'

Try "look at all this stuff we give you because Jesus Christ is our Lord and savior"

"Ignore that giant church we're building. That isn't to convert you. It's just for us."

 

[tonydead]

It is interesting how the who goes to church thread turned into the how much do you have to pay to go to church thread.

 

[shader]

Re:giving, it's not unlike any other cause someone may believe in. Some give to animal rescue, some to politicAl organizations, others to charities with international focus. Church goers give to their churches because they believe in the message and mission of the church.

We just started a campaign to plant an outreach ministry center in a very economically disadvantaged part of the area. We are starting with a clothing donation store, and with programs to help young teen mothers with formula, diapers, child care. Our eventual goal is to plant a church and offer relationship counseling and other services to help those in need.

Our church's yearly operating budget is about 1.5 million (church of about 900 regular attendees). We raised 275,000 above that for this new initiative.

'Look at all the stuff we'll give you if you worship Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour!'

Try "look at all this stuff we give you because Jesus Christ is our Lord and savior"

"Ignore that giant church we're building. That isn't to convert you. It's just for us."

Well they've got the conversion part right...it's just that they are trying to entice people with huge buildings and material things, and not with the bible. I don't think this is what Jesus had in mind.

 

[Rick James]

Re:giving, it's not unlike any other cause someone may believe in. Some give to animal rescue, some to politicAl organizations, others to charities with international focus. Church goers give to their churches because they believe in the message and mission of the church.

We just started a campaign to plant an outreach ministry center in a very economically disadvantaged part of the area. We are starting with a clothing donation store, and with programs to help young teen mothers with formula, diapers, child care. Our eventual goal is to plant a church and offer relationship counseling and other services to help those in need.

Our church's yearly operating budget is about 1.5 million (church of about 900 regular attendees). We raised 275,000 above that for this new initiative.

'Look at all the stuff we'll give you if you worship Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour!'

Try "look at all this stuff we give you because Jesus Christ is our Lord and savior"

"Ignore that giant church we're building. That isn't to convert you. It's just for us."

Well they've got the conversion part right...it's just that they are trying to entice people with huge buildings and material things, and not with the bible. I don't think this is what Jesus had in mind.

boy, you guys have some creative minds. how did you take the leap from "clothing donation store and programs to help teen mothers" to building a megachurch?

 

[mr roboto]

Well you are right Cliff. I guess I should tell our pastor and executive team that some guy on the Internet thinks it disingenuous. No free formula for babies.

 

[mr roboto]

Shader - we aren't building a mega church. Our goal is actually to plant small community churches of no more than 300.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Well you are right Cliff. I guess I should tell our pastor and executive team that some guy on the Internet thinks it disingenuous. No free formula for babies.

Tell him to send me a PM. I sure I can think of other items that he can use to coerce poor folks into loving Jesus Christ as their lord and saviour.

 

[James Daulton]

Why would anyone begrudge believers giving to their church?

 

[Politician Spock]

It is interesting how the who goes to church thread turned into the how much do you have to pay to go to church thread.

A person's attachment to money is a tell tale sign that Jesus is not Lord over their life, even if they go to church and claim to be a Christian. Their god is money.

 

[pecorino]

I am not sure what to make of the sentence "There is no church that has perfect doctrine" because I don't know what perfect doctrine means. However, the Orthodox church stands by its Apostolic succession and, well, its Orthodoxy. I'd certainly agree that sinfulness abounds but if you describe the Church as "Christ's bride", it might be worth your while to look into Orthodoxy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Christianity and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Orthodox_Church

I go to an evangelical megachurch. I'm pretty involved.

How many people make up the megachurch? Do you feel that, it being a large group, they are able to maintain connection with the pastor?

It's a multi-site church, but the location I go to runs about 3k weekly.

To your second question, absolutely not. It's one of the hardest things to do when your church gets big, and it presents a very real, difficult problem. Do you turn people away? Absolutely not. Is it possible for a church of 15k over multiple sites to have everyone connect with the pastor? Absolutely not.

What it does is create a void that mature Christians in the church need to step up and fill. It creates (well, it can create) a culture where if something needs to be done, you just do it. You can't wait around for someone else to do it, because everyone else who's doing stuff is really busy too. If you can't do it, you need to find someone, spend time with them, and help them do it. I don't know if it's ideal, and I don't always like it, but I go to church with some really outstanding people who love Jesus, will never be on stage, and take really good care of their fellow church goers.

You will find, at church, that there is no such thing as a perfect one. There is no church that has perfect doctrine. There is no church that has everything on lockdown. It's full of selfish, sinful people that have issues. I have some pretty big issues with my church, and I'm considering switching. Truthfully, I want to switch. But I want to consider others more highly than myself, and right now I'm in a position where I worry how it would affect them if I just did what I wanted to do and upped and left. I want to love the church, because that is Christ's bride, and if you love Him you necessarily love his church. I have found that when I go wondering what it is that church will give me, I end up frustrated. When I go wondering how I can help, it is a world better.

Hope that helps.

 

[shader]

Why would anyone begrudge believers giving to their church?

I don't recall anyone doing this

 

[NajehHejan]

Born Roman Catholic. Parents sent me and my sis to Catholic school and because of that we had to attend mass each Sunday with our classmates in assigned sections, until we were older and it was up to us to just go as a family. One by one we started complaining about going and eventually faded out. In college I experimented with various chemical stimulants which clouded my doubt. Languished in my 20s and half of my 30s but now at 40 I am married with two youngings and we've been going to mass weekly for about 7 years. I still have certain intellectual reservations about Catholicism but at the most basic, I believe in a higher power and that we are here to be good humans so I take that to the bank brohans.

 

[proninja]

I am not sure what to make of the sentence "There is no church that has perfect doctrine" because I don't know what perfect doctrine means. However, the Orthodox church stands by its Apostolic succession and, well, its Orthodoxy. I'd certainly agree that sinfulness abounds but if you describe the Church as "Christ's bride", it might be worth your while to look into Orthodoxy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Christianity and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Orthodox_Church

Thanks for the heads up. I mean that nobody knows what perfect doctrine is, and if I did, I would be God. And that goes for every church.

 

[eurotrashman]

Well you are right Cliff. I guess I should tell our pastor and executive team that some guy on the Internet thinks it disingenuous. No free formula for babies.

Executive team? At a church?

 

[Rick James]

Well you are right Cliff. I guess I should tell our pastor and executive team that some guy on the Internet thinks it disingenuous. No free formula for babies.

Executive team? At a church?

What's the confusion? Not uncommon w/ large membership churches.