Clowney v Mack - You run the show. (1 Viewer)

[cstu]

Didnt realize the "freakish" talent only had 3 sacks last season.

Watch the tape.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Didnt realize the "freakish" talent only had 3 sacks last season.

Watch the tape.

I watched him since South Pointe - he takes plays off and his conditioning is ####. Not going to dispute the natural talent and freakish athleticism though. I still think there is a ton of risk with him over he next 5 years.

 

[Faust]

Greg Cosell prefers Khalil Mack over Jadeveon ClowneyBy Dan Hanzus

Around the League Writer

Excerpt:

There might not be a better athlete in the 2014 draft class than Jadeveon Clowney. That doesn't mean he's the best fit as the No. 1 overall pick.

That's the opinion of NFL Films senior producer Greg Cosell, who has concluded that Buffalo linebacker Khalil Mack is the top prospect in this year's class.

"I think Mack is a better prospect as we speak today," Cosell said on Friday's edition of the "Around The League Podcast." "And he'd be a great fit in a pure 3-4 because I think his best position in a base defense is an outside linebacker in a two-point stance.

"When I watch Khalil Mack I see a really strong, explosive, multi-dimensional player who's a very good pass rusher who showed the ability to rush the quarterback in multiple ways, from speed to power and bending the edge, which are two important qualities for a pass rusher."

Cosell believes Clowney is a special, but raw, talent.

"If you're going to draft Clowney with the first pick in the draft, then you're basically saying he's going to be a dominant pass rusher because you don't draft defensive ends to stop the run with the first pick in the draft," he said. "So essentially you're saying he's going to be a great pass rusher.

"At this point in time he's much more of an athlete than a pass rusher and a football player. And you're counting on that great athleticism to translate through coaching into becoming a great, great football player and pass rusher."

 

[Kree]

I think there's plenty of reason to talk down Clowney on account on work ethic and desire...

You know, like if you only have the 2nd to 5th pick rather than 1st overall.

Team scouts get in networks/writers, 'we really don't like Clowney like everyone else because of x-y-z', and pull them along for the ride. And pray that Houston is stupid enough to lower the value of the first based on these 'discussions'.

 

[FUBAR]

Clowney declines private workouts. Didnt realize the "freakish" talent only had 3 sacks last season.

Sapp and Evans question Clowney's work ethic.

Aside:

@Fubar Texans taking Bush #1 is I guess what your saying? Time to cut bait w/Mario?

2014: $13.8 million.

2015: $14.4 million

2016: $15.3 million.

2017: $14.9 million

Florio wisely points out that this (2014) is a critical point in the deal. It is uniquely structured to get the Bills out of the remainder of the deal in the (hopefully unlikely) event that things aren't working out. This is why the base salary is so low, and the roster bonus so high: if the Bills were to cut Williams prior to the 2014 season, they would still be on the hook for the salary, but not for the bonus and other scheduled payments.

Mario Williams contract

What are you getting at here?

My statement was simply that Mario did better in his time in Houston than Bush did during the same time period.

 

[Soulfly3]

Im kinda glad I made this topic... this convo is more relevant than people originally anticipated.

would really not be shocked to see Mack go no1.. or before Clowney

 

[Faust]

Khalil Mack is '1A' pass rusher behind Jadeveon ClowneyBy Mike Huguenin

College Football 24/7 writer

Excerpt:

Khalil Mack's ability as a pass rusher cannot be overstated and is the biggest reason he's going to go early in the first round of the draft.

Former NFL general manager Charley Casserly said Friday on NFL Network's "NFL AM" that if "you want to say (Jadeveon) Clowney is the best pass rusher, Mack is 1A -- he's right behind him."

Mack (6-foot-3, 251 pounds) was an outside linebacker in a 3-4 defense in college at Buffalo. He set an NCAA career record with 16 forced fumbles and is tied for first in NCAA history with 75 tackles for loss; he is tied with former Western Michigan defensive end Jason Babin, who started for the Jacksonville Jaguars in 2013. Mack also had 28.5 career sacks.

That pass-rush ability could be enticing, Casserly said, to Jacksonville, which needs an edge rusher and picks third. Casserly hinted that he thought the pick would come down to Mack and Clemson wide receiver Sammy Watkins. The Jaguars also need a go-to wide receiver, and Watkins is the best receiving prospect in this draft.

Last month, Jaguars coach Gus Bradley waxed poetic on Mack during a segment on "Schein on Sports" with NFL Media's Adam Schein on SiriusXM's Mad Dog Sports Radio. "He's one of those guys you feel like that's going to play for a long time; just extremely talented," Bradley said.

 

[Bri]

I'm terrified of Clowney being an unmotivated bust after getting paid, but you don't pass on DE with his upside for virtually anything other than QB.

I see Jake Matthews as a lock and probably Robinson moreso, but I love the Matthews family. When I read all these negative articles about this guy or that guy, I start to remember how many teams have drafted tackles high and it just seems like the safe smart move.

 

[Faust]

Rotoworld:

ESPN's Adam Schefter indicated on SportsCenter Friday that Buffalo OLB Khalil Mack may still be in the mix to go No. 1 overall to the Texans.
"I do not believe Khalil Mack can be dismissed from the conversation at the No. 1 pick," were Schefter's words. Mack has never been truly dismissed from the discussion, but the commonly held expectation is Houston will select South Carolina DE/OLB Jadeveon Clowney. It's worth noting Mack might be a better scheme fit than Clowney for Romeo Crennel's 3-4. In April, SI's Peter King reported a "friend" of Houston GM Rick Smith told him Smith prefers Mack over Clowney. The Texans also shocked the world in 2006 when they picked Mario Williams over Reggie Bush at No. 1, though Smith wasn't their GM at the time.

Related: Texans

 

[mvereb]

I'm going to post a few quotes regarding one particular player that seems to run parallel with what people are saying about Clowney...

“His talent is substantial. He’s that rare combination of size and arm strength”- former Cleveland Browns General Manager (2005 - 2008) Phil Savage

“I can’t remember being in awe of a quarterback in my decade of attending combines and pro days”- ESPN's Todd McShay

“The only thing that’s going to keep him from being great is him. You’ve got to figure out whether or not this kid wants to be the best …If I had the first, second, or third pick in that draft, I would be tearing apart his personal life, trying to figure out whether or not I could trust this kid with $10 million”.--Mike Mayock

////

If you haven't figured it out already, the mystery man is JaMarcus Russell. Alike Russell, Clowney is touted as an amazing athlete that lit up college football, combines, and pro days. However, Russell was unwilling to put in the work to become a great player. Even though they play different positions, I think you can question Clowney's desire to be great. I don't know Clowney personally, but just from watching his interviews, I just don't feel the passion that other players have for the game. People have made so many excuses for Clowney's lack of effort during the past season, but we must wonder what will happen when he gets paid. Will he play hard and train hard? What about when he's about to enter free agency? Will he mail it in again?

Personally, I would take Johnny Manziel with the #1 pick, but if I had to choose between Clowney and Mack, I'm taking Mack and not thinking twice about it. Mack plays with a relentless motor and is versatile. He's a very solid pick that will contribute on Day 1 and teams won't have to worry about all of the distractions.

 

[Bri]

Khalil Mack is '1A' pass rusher behind Jadeveon Clowney

By Mike Huguenin

College Football 24/7 writer

Excerpt:

Khalil Mack's ability as a pass rusher cannot be overstated and is the biggest reason he's going to go early in the first round of the draft.

Former NFL general manager Charley Casserly said Friday on NFL Network's "NFL AM" that if "you want to say (Jadeveon) Clowney is the best pass rusher, Mack is 1A -- he's right behind him."

Mack (6-foot-3, 251 pounds) was an outside linebacker in a 3-4 defense in college at Buffalo. He set an NCAA career record with 16 forced fumbles and is tied for first in NCAA history with 75 tackles for loss; he is tied with former Western Michigan defensive end Jason Babin, who started for the Jacksonville Jaguars in 2013. Mack also had 28.5 career sacks.

That pass-rush ability could be enticing, Casserly said, to Jacksonville, which needs an edge rusher and picks third. Casserly hinted that he thought the pick would come down to Mack and Clemson wide receiver Sammy Watkins. The Jaguars also need a go-to wide receiver, and Watkins is the best receiving prospect in this draft.

Last month, Jaguars coach Gus Bradley waxed poetic on Mack during a segment on "Schein on Sports" with NFL Media's Adam Schein on SiriusXM's Mad Dog Sports Radio. "He's one of those guys you feel like that's going to play for a long time; just extremely talented," Bradley said.

I felt like Blackmon gave the offense some life and they were downright ugly some times when he wasn't around. I like the idea of trading his rights for a later pick and selecting a WR to plug into his place. I think this would create a whole "moving on" mindset they need while not drafting a top WR will make this story loom over them throughout 2014. I think a well run organization should trade for him and entice him to sign a contract that involves rehab and some other stipulations that will someday make the NFL consider reinstating him. Please note I don't want to hijack this thread, just feel it's best to move on here and do it quickly. The hope blackmon gave them when he played must be replaced.

 

[Faust]

Rotoworld:

After speaking to "people who know" Texans GM Rick Smith, NFL Network's Ian Rapoport tweeted late Sunday that he "no longer believe(s) it's a certainty" Houston uses the No. 1 overall pick on Jadeveon Clowney.
SI's Peter King, who wrote two weeks ago that people close to Smith believe the Texans' general manager prefers Buffalo's Khalil Mack over Clowney, chimed in on Twitter Sunday, writing "I should say I absolutely don't know who Houston will pick. But I hear the same as Ian." Rapoport added the Texans are "willing to trade" -- which we already knew -- but also called Mack "a name to watch this week," perhaps as a sleeper to go No. 1 overall. On Friday, ESPN's Adam Schefter stated on SportsCenter, "I do not believe Khalil Mack can be dismissed from the conversation at the No. 1 pick." If Clowney slipped to the Rams at No. 2, St. Louis would almost certainly auction the selection to the highest bidder.

Related: Texans, Rams

Source: Ian Rapoport on Twitter

 

[Bronco Billy]

Am I the only one who remembers what a sure thing it was for HOU to draft Reggie Bush over Mario Williams and how that turned out?

I though Clowney got managed in the bowl game vs WIS and could see more of that happen in the pros. I see a lot of Dumervil in him in that teams will run right at him and swallow him up - except there was never a question about Dumervil's motor. Freakish athlete indeed - but how do you evaluate his head given what we've seen to date? He could easy be the next Kearse or Bruce Smith if he really wants to be and can add some mass.

 

[jurb26]

Am I the only one who remembers what a sure thing it was for HOU to draft Reggie Bush over Mario Williams and how that turned out?

I though Clowney got managed in the bowl game vs WIS and could see more of that happen in the pros. I see a lot of Dumervil in him in that teams will run right at him and swallow him up - except there was never a question about Dumervil's motor. Freakish athlete indeed - but how do you evaluate his head given what we've seen to date? He could easy be the next Kearse or Bruce Smith if he really wants to be and can add some mass.

One of Clowneys strengths is playing the run. This doesn't really make much sense.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Am I the only one who remembers what a sure thing it was for HOU to draft Reggie Bush over Mario Williams and how that turned out?

I though Clowney got managed in the bowl game vs WIS and could see more of that happen in the pros. I see a lot of Dumervil in him in that teams will run right at him and swallow him up - except there was never a question about Dumervil's motor. Freakish athlete indeed - but how do you evaluate his head given what we've seen to date? He could easy be the next Kearse or Bruce Smith if he really wants to be and can add some mass.

One of Clowneys strengths is playing the run. This doesn't really make much sense.

If you say so. I went back and looked at scouting reports and they had some of the same concerns I saw - he plays too high against the run, doesn't stack blockers, and needs to learn to shed run blocks.

I think he's going to struggle at first against pro OTs who go right at him, or let him pick his side and then seal him. He's going to need to build mass and strength to set his edge.

 

[massraider]

I think he's going to struggle at first against pro OTs who go right at him

Like every other DE ever? Gutsy call.

 

[Faust]

Rotoworld:

NFL.com's Gil Brandt predicted in MMQB that Khalil Mack will be drafted ahead of Jadeveon Clowney on Thursday.
Observers love to yell "smokescreen" at whatever pre-draft information doesn't suit their narrative, but longtime personnel man Brandt isn't prone to narratives, and certainly isn't being used by teams. "I think Khalil Mack gets picked ahead of Jadeveon Clowney," Brandt predicted, adding that he believes Teddy Bridgewater will ultimately be drafted somewhere in the first round, and Johnny Manziel "will go in the top five, but not number one." There are more and more signs pointing to Mack going No. 1 to Houston, although GM Rick Smith would pretty clearly prefer to trade down. This is one of the least predictable drafts in recent memory.

Related: Texans

Source: SI.com

 

[cstu]

Am I the only one who remembers what a sure thing it was for HOU to draft Reggie Bush over Mario Williams and how that turned out?

I though Clowney got managed in the bowl game vs WIS and could see more of that happen in the pros. I see a lot of Dumervil in him in that teams will run right at him and swallow him up - except there was never a question about Dumervil's motor. Freakish athlete indeed - but how do you evaluate his head given what we've seen to date? He could easy be the next Kearse or Bruce Smith if he really wants to be and can add some mass.

The only way Wisconsin was able to handle him was to rarely throw the ball (mostly ran to the opposite side of the field) and when they did pass they double covered him.

 

[Bronco Billy]

I think he's going to struggle at first against pro OTs who go right at him

Like every other DE ever? Gutsy call.

Wow. Can't you guys handle a little discussion? It's almost as though if you don't engage in groupthink that it's a personal affront to some of you. If this guy is the next coming like some of you seem to think , why would he struggle at all ever ?

 

[jurb26]

Am I the only one who remembers what a sure thing it was for HOU to draft Reggie Bush over Mario Williams and how that turned out?

I though Clowney got managed in the bowl game vs WIS and could see more of that happen in the pros. I see a lot of Dumervil in him in that teams will run right at him and swallow him up - except there was never a question about Dumervil's motor. Freakish athlete indeed - but how do you evaluate his head given what we've seen to date? He could easy be the next Kearse or Bruce Smith if he really wants to be and can add some mass.

One of Clowneys strengths is playing the run. This doesn't really make much sense.

If you say so. I went back and looked at scouting reports and they had some of the same concerns I saw - he plays too high against the run, doesn't stack blockers, and needs to learn to shed run blocks.

I think he's going to struggle at first against pro OTs who go right at him, or let him pick his side and then seal him. He's going to need to build mass and strength to set his edge.

Clowney needs refinement on his technique, no doubt. That's not terribly uncommon though. My take is this. Clowney has always been the best athlete on the field, anywhere he's ever played. Hell, that may still be the case in the NFL. The guy is just a freak. With that, he has gotten into a bad habit of just beating guys with that raw athleticism. He will need to be taught how to use his hands better and more consistently. Fortunately for him many of the things that it requires to become dominant in this area come naturally to him. He's got tremendous nap knee bend and plays with natural leverage. He dips his shoulder well due typo his amazing lower body explosiveness. Then there is the insane wingspan that is 84 inches. The tools are all there and he has shown them in college. Consistency needs to be developed. Primarily his hand placement and what he does with them. It's really amazing when you watch him closely at how little he uses his hands sometimes. I think this is where the lazy reputation comes from and it's totally misused. It's just consistency and coaching.

 

[cstu]

I think he's going to struggle at first against pro OTs who go right at him

Like every other DE ever? Gutsy call.

Wow. Can't you guys handle a little discussion? It's almost as though if you don't engage in groupthink that it's a personal affront to some of you. If this guy is the next coming like some of you seem to think , why would he struggle at all ever ?

I'm definitely looking for reasons to question him and I have my own - he's over-aggressive playing the run and will miss guys because he's out of position. Mack on the other hand seems to always be at the right place at the right time.

However, Clowney is dominant as a pass rusher and when single covered on a pass play he disrupted the play most of the time. His aggressiveness also leads to him making great runs for a loss when he makes the right decision.

 

[massraider]

I think he's going to struggle at first against pro OTs who go right at him

Like every other DE ever? Gutsy call.

Wow. Can't you guys handle a little discussion? It's almost as though if you don't engage in groupthink that it's a personal affront to some of you.

The groupthink is on the other side. Whole lot of people that have never been around Clowney talking about work ethic and desire as if they are foregone conclusions. That's the really DUMB part about this, is that people aren't questioning his work ethic, now it's just, 'Can he overcome his lack of work ethic??' As if it was a fact.

Saying something like, 'I think he'll struggle at first when they run right at him'.......Yeah, I think he probably won't be as strong, at first, against the run as you'd like your starting DE to be. Do you think he'll be weak against the run his entire career? Because 6'5', 270 isn't big enough? Is that your position? He needs to add mass? How many DEs in the NFL aren't as tall, heavy, or both?

Happy to read and have discussion about Clowney, and his weaknesses, but I find your arguments completely off base.

Watching his games, there's no evidence of taking plays off, or weakness against the run.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Clowney needs refinement on his technique, no doubt. That's not terribly uncommon though. My take is this. Clowney has always been the best athlete on the field, anywhere he's ever played. Hell, that may still be the case in the NFL. The guy is just a freak. With that, he has gotten into a bad habit of just beating guys with that raw athleticism. He will need to be taught how to use his hands better and more consistently. Fortunately for him many of the things that it requires to become dominant in this area come naturally to him. He's got tremendous nap knee bend and plays with natural leverage. He dips his shoulder well due typo his amazing lower body explosiveness. Then there is the insane wingspan that is 84 inches. The tools are all there and he has shown them in college. Consistency needs to be developed. Primarily his hand placement and what he does with them. It's really amazing when you watch him closely at how little he uses his hands sometimes. I think this is where the lazy reputation comes from and it's totally misused. It's just consistency and coaching.

A lot of this is true... He has gotten by on just being a freak for his entire career, however this won't fly in the NFL. I think he has been labeled lazy, quite frankly because he is. His conditioning will also be a huge area to monitor. If this guy puts the motor into high gear and really tries to learn the techniques, watch out - he'll be an absolute monster!

My real question is what happens when he starts collecting checks. I don't think money is the cure for laziness, in fact it is prob the opposite.

 

[massraider]

Clowney needs refinement on his technique, no doubt. That's not terribly uncommon though. My take is this. Clowney has always been the best athlete on the field, anywhere he's ever played. Hell, that may still be the case in the NFL. The guy is just a freak. With that, he has gotten into a bad habit of just beating guys with that raw athleticism. He will need to be taught how to use his hands better and more consistently. Fortunately for him many of the things that it requires to become dominant in this area come naturally to him. He's got tremendous nap knee bend and plays with natural leverage. He dips his shoulder well due typo his amazing lower body explosiveness. Then there is the insane wingspan that is 84 inches. The tools are all there and he has shown them in college. Consistency needs to be developed. Primarily his hand placement and what he does with them. It's really amazing when you watch him closely at how little he uses his hands sometimes. I think this is where the lazy reputation comes from and it's totally misused. It's just consistency and coaching.

A lot of this is true... He has gotten by on just being a freak for his entire career, however this won't fly in the NFL. I think he has been labeled lazy, quite frankly because he is.

Quite frankly, you have no idea.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Clowney needs refinement on his technique, no doubt. That's not terribly uncommon though. My take is this. Clowney has always been the best athlete on the field, anywhere he's ever played. Hell, that may still be the case in the NFL. The guy is just a freak. With that, he has gotten into a bad habit of just beating guys with that raw athleticism. He will need to be taught how to use his hands better and more consistently. Fortunately for him many of the things that it requires to become dominant in this area come naturally to him. He's got tremendous nap knee bend and plays with natural leverage. He dips his shoulder well due typo his amazing lower body explosiveness. Then there is the insane wingspan that is 84 inches. The tools are all there and he has shown them in college. Consistency needs to be developed. Primarily his hand placement and what he does with them. It's really amazing when you watch him closely at how little he uses his hands sometimes. I think this is where the lazy reputation comes from and it's totally misused. It's just consistency and coaching.

A lot of this is true... He has gotten by on just being a freak for his entire career, however this won't fly in the NFL. I think he has been labeled lazy, quite frankly because he is.

Quite frankly, you have no idea.

I've watched the kid since HS... He takes plays off, multiple times a game.

 

[cstu]

Clowney needs refinement on his technique, no doubt. That's not terribly uncommon though. My take is this. Clowney has always been the best athlete on the field, anywhere he's ever played. Hell, that may still be the case in the NFL. The guy is just a freak. With that, he has gotten into a bad habit of just beating guys with that raw athleticism. He will need to be taught how to use his hands better and more consistently. Fortunately for him many of the things that it requires to become dominant in this area come naturally to him. He's got tremendous nap knee bend and plays with natural leverage. He dips his shoulder well due typo his amazing lower body explosiveness. Then there is the insane wingspan that is 84 inches. The tools are all there and he has shown them in college. Consistency needs to be developed. Primarily his hand placement and what he does with them. It's really amazing when you watch him closely at how little he uses his hands sometimes. I think this is where the lazy reputation comes from and it's totally misused. It's just consistency and coaching.

A lot of this is true... He has gotten by on just being a freak for his entire career, however this won't fly in the NFL. I think he has been labeled lazy, quite frankly because he is. His conditioning will also be a huge area to monitor. If this guy puts the motor into high gear and really tries to learn the techniques, watch out - he'll be an absolute monster!

My real question is what happens when he starts collecting checks. I don't think money is the cure for laziness, in fact it is prob the opposite.

If he were able to go pro last year no one would be questioning his work ethic.

 

[cstu]

Clowney needs refinement on his technique, no doubt. That's not terribly uncommon though. My take is this. Clowney has always been the best athlete on the field, anywhere he's ever played. Hell, that may still be the case in the NFL. The guy is just a freak. With that, he has gotten into a bad habit of just beating guys with that raw athleticism. He will need to be taught how to use his hands better and more consistently. Fortunately for him many of the things that it requires to become dominant in this area come naturally to him. He's got tremendous nap knee bend and plays with natural leverage. He dips his shoulder well due typo his amazing lower body explosiveness. Then there is the insane wingspan that is 84 inches. The tools are all there and he has shown them in college. Consistency needs to be developed. Primarily his hand placement and what he does with them. It's really amazing when you watch him closely at how little he uses his hands sometimes. I think this is where the lazy reputation comes from and it's totally misused. It's just consistency and coaching.

A lot of this is true... He has gotten by on just being a freak for his entire career, however this won't fly in the NFL. I think he has been labeled lazy, quite frankly because he is.

Quite frankly, you have no idea.

I've watched the kid since HS... He takes plays off, multiple times a game.

I've asked others, can you provide a links to these multiple times a game he's taken plays off?

 

[Bronco Billy]

Watching his games, there's no evidence of taking plays off, or weakness against the run.

Well, I watched some of his games and my impression from last year was that he absolutely dogged some plays. There's a reason a lot of people make the same comment. They saw it too. And when he was playing the run, if he didn't guess the right gap against a good OT he could be washed out of the play. And there were times he played too high, which is where a pro OT will put him on skates.

This guy does not have the perfect game. If he commits himself he has enough ability and athleticism to be an all-time great. But I saw a guy last year who spent quite a bit of time going through the motions.

You apparently didn't see that.

 

[jurb26]

Watching his games, there's no evidence of taking plays off, or weakness against the run.

Well, I watched some of his games and my impression from last year was that he absolutely dogged some plays. There's a reason a lot of people make the same comment. They saw it too. And when he was playing the run, if he didn't guess the right gap against a good OT he could be washed out of the play. And there were times he played too high, which is where a pro OT will put him on skates.

This guy does not have the perfect game. If he commits himself he has enough ability and athleticism to be an all-time great. But I saw a guy last year who spent quite a bit of time going through the motions.

You apparently didn't see that.

I don't see it, either. I've seen him stock Olinemen in the run game, stay parallel to the LOS while engaged, fight thru double teams, miss the gap and still run down the ball carry across the field and do everything you could possibly want out of a dominant DE.He made a play in a game I reviewed where he was cut at the LOS and got up to make the tackle on a RB before he could get to the hole. This play showed unreal athleticism, desire and hustle.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Clowney needs refinement on his technique, no doubt. That's not terribly uncommon though. My take is this. Clowney has always been the best athlete on the field, anywhere he's ever played. Hell, that may still be the case in the NFL. The guy is just a freak. With that, he has gotten into a bad habit of just beating guys with that raw athleticism. He will need to be taught how to use his hands better and more consistently. Fortunately for him many of the things that it requires to become dominant in this area come naturally to him. He's got tremendous nap knee bend and plays with natural leverage. He dips his shoulder well due typo his amazing lower body explosiveness. Then there is the insane wingspan that is 84 inches. The tools are all there and he has shown them in college. Consistency needs to be developed. Primarily his hand placement and what he does with them. It's really amazing when you watch him closely at how little he uses his hands sometimes. I think this is where the lazy reputation comes from and it's totally misused. It's just consistency and coaching.

A lot of this is true... He has gotten by on just being a freak for his entire career, however this won't fly in the NFL. I think he has been labeled lazy, quite frankly because he is.

Quite frankly, you have no idea.

I've watched the kid since HS... He takes plays off, multiple times a game.

I've asked others, can you provide a links to these multiple times a game he's taken plays off?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1804263-tape-dont-lie-is-jadeveon-clowney-quitting-on-the-field-or-not

Here is a good article with some video...

I watched the guy play in at least 12-14 SC games. There is no denying he dogs it here or there. His conditioning comes into question sometimes.

I'm not denying the rare ability he has, I just want to see it translate over a career. I actually would love him to live up to the potential, bc he would be an absolute monster.

ETA: You can see it numerous times in one game against UNC

 

[jurb26]

You can't be serious. That link is not having the intended purpose you think it is. It's pretty much negating the Clowney is lazy talk.

 

[fantasycurse42]

You can't be serious. That link is not having the intended purpose you think it is. It's pretty much negating the Clowney is lazy talk.

Watch the UNC tape, one game, numerous plays off...

Anyone who watched him play a lot of games has seen it.

 

[jurb26]

You can't be serious. That link is not having the intended purpose you think it is. It's pretty much negating the Clowney is lazy talk.

Watch the UNC tape, one game, numerous plays off...

Anyone who watched him play a lot of games has seen it.

Plays off? The whole D was gassed and it was pointed out. Clowney didn't have a problem the entire South Car team did, keeping up with the pace of the UNC offense. On top of that, it was noted numerous times how UNC was playing keep away from Clowney all game long. Nothing about that link helps your point IMO.

 

[duaneok66]

If you like a guy, you have a tendency to point out his strengths, if you don't like a guy, you point to his weaknesses

(paraphrasing from Greg Cosell)

 

[DAG]

One of the interesting things about the Clowney/Mack discussion is how each guy projects in Crennel's system. A lot of what we're hearing is that Mack might be in the discussion for the Texans at #1 because he already has a record of production/experience at OLB, where Clowney played DE in a 4-3. I'm curious as to whether this is a legitimate concern for Clowney or if he could be even more dangerous out in space.

I personally think Mack is a safer bet to be one of the better OLBs in the league; of course one of the tough things about evaluating him is he rarely played against top competition (though the Ohio State game was impressive). I wouldn't blame the Texans if they took Mack at #1 but I really doubt they will. I also wouldn't be surprised if Mack ended up being the better NFL player (regardless of OLB/DE/Tweener distinctions). And I like Clowney a lot.

 

[VaTerp]

I think he's going to struggle at first against pro OTs who go right at him

Like every other DE ever? Gutsy call.

Wow. Can't you guys handle a little discussion? It's almost as though if you don't engage in groupthink that it's a personal affront to some of you.

The groupthink is on the other side. Whole lot of people that have never been around Clowney talking about work ethic and desire as if they are foregone conclusions. That's the really DUMB part about this, is that people aren't questioning his work ethic, now it's just, 'Can he overcome his lack of work ethic??' As if it was a fact.

Saying something like, 'I think he'll struggle at first when they run right at him'.......Yeah, I think he probably won't be as strong, at first, against the run as you'd like your starting DE to be. Do you think he'll be weak against the run his entire career? Because 6'5', 270 isn't big enough? Is that your position? He needs to add mass? How many DEs in the NFL aren't as tall, heavy, or both?

Happy to read and have discussion about Clowney, and his weaknesses, but I find your arguments completely off base.

Watching his games, there's no evidence of taking plays off, or weakness against the run.

I think he's going to struggle at first against pro OTs who go right at him

Like every other DE ever? Gutsy call.

Wow. Can't you guys handle a little discussion? It's almost as though if you don't engage in groupthink that it's a personal affront to some of you.

The groupthink is on the other side. Whole lot of people that have never been around Clowney talking about work ethic and desire as if they are foregone conclusions. That's the really DUMB part about this, is that people aren't questioning his work ethic, now it's just, 'Can he overcome his lack of work ethic??' As if it was a fact.

Saying something like, 'I think he'll struggle at first when they run right at him'.......Yeah, I think he probably won't be as strong, at first, against the run as you'd like your starting DE to be. Do you think he'll be weak against the run his entire career? Because 6'5', 270 isn't big enough? Is that your position? He needs to add mass? How many DEs in the NFL aren't as tall, heavy, or both?

Happy to read and have discussion about Clowney, and his weaknesses, but I find your arguments completely off base.

Watching his games, there's no evidence of taking plays off, or weakness against the run.

Not to mention he compared Clowney to Dumervil who is 6 inches shorter, 13lbs lighter.

 

[Bronco Billy]

I think he's going to struggle at first against pro OTs who go right at him

Like every other DE ever? Gutsy call.

Wow. Can't you guys handle a little discussion? It's almost as though if you don't engage in groupthink that it's a personal affront to some of you.

The groupthink is on the other side. Whole lot of people that have never been around Clowney talking about work ethic and desire as if they are foregone conclusions. That's the really DUMB part about this, is that people aren't questioning his work ethic, now it's just, 'Can he overcome his lack of work ethic??' As if it was a fact.

Saying something like, 'I think he'll struggle at first when they run right at him'.......Yeah, I think he probably won't be as strong, at first, against the run as you'd like your starting DE to be. Do you think he'll be weak against the run his entire career? Because 6'5', 270 isn't big enough? Is that your position? He needs to add mass? How many DEs in the NFL aren't as tall, heavy, or both?

Happy to read and have discussion about Clowney, and his weaknesses, but I find your arguments completely off base.

Watching his games, there's no evidence of taking plays off, or weakness against the run.

I think he's going to struggle at first against pro OTs who go right at him

Like every other DE ever? Gutsy call.

Wow. Can't you guys handle a little discussion? It's almost as though if you don't engage in groupthink that it's a personal affront to some of you.

The groupthink is on the other side. Whole lot of people that have never been around Clowney talking about work ethic and desire as if they are foregone conclusions. That's the really DUMB part about this, is that people aren't questioning his work ethic, now it's just, 'Can he overcome his lack of work ethic??' As if it was a fact.

Saying something like, 'I think he'll struggle at first when they run right at him'.......Yeah, I think he probably won't be as strong, at first, against the run as you'd like your starting DE to be. Do you think he'll be weak against the run his entire career? Because 6'5', 270 isn't big enough? Is that your position? He needs to add mass? How many DEs in the NFL aren't as tall, heavy, or both?

Happy to read and have discussion about Clowney, and his weaknesses, but I find your arguments completely off base.

Watching his games, there's no evidence of taking plays off, or weakness against the run.

Not to mention he compared Clowney to Dumervil who is 6 inches shorter, 13lbs lighter.

Yes, I did compare him to Dumervil - but then I evaluate more on style of play than similar physical characteristics. Dumervil's BMI is better - which is also an important physical attribute. But having watched him quite a bit here in Denver, he was a terror rushing the QB with his quicks and bend but he was an absolute liability anchoring the edge against the run. As soon as he got tangled with an OL on a run play he got washed out of the play. I feel we'll see some of the same type of play from Clowney.

People will ooh and aah over his pass rush - rightfully so - but will willingly ignore that they get hammered when the run is aimed at them.

So, if all you care about in comparing players is that they have to be the same height/weight or any comparison is invalid I guess you can just dismiss this. Conveniently.

 

[jurb26]

Clowney may have problem with the run in the NFL but he didn't in college. The statement just doesn't make sense. Teams ran away from Clowney because they were afraid of him in both the pass and run.

Like I said before, he will have to get better at using his hands. NFL T's will get I to his body if he doesn't, bit in the run and the pass.

 

[jurb26]

I've gone back and looked more into Mack and have a question for some of the guys who really love him. Why did he disappear so much in certain games vs. lower competition? Particularly games vs. Baylor, Eastern Michigan and Ohio.

I heard this brought up by someone else a while back and never really looked into it much until recently. It seems Mack is largely getting blown up for his performance vs. tOSU but nobody talks about his weaknesses like Clowney. Seems like recency bias to me.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Clowney may have problem with the run in the NFL but he didn't in college. The statement just doesn't make sense. Teams ran away from Clowney because they were afraid of him in both the pass and run.

Like I said before, he will have to get better at using his hands. NFL T's will get I to his body if he doesn't, bit in the run and the pass.

Again I think we're going to have to wait and see. I've seen him play and you've seen him play, and I've seen some flaws that may be exploited at the pro level while acknowledging simultaneously that he is a dominant physical specimen and superb pass rusher, while you apparently see the virtually perfect DE.

The only way I see any resolution is to watch what happens. But at least the rhetoric has been toned down and we're at least having a good discussion. I appreciate that.

 

[jurb26]

Clowney may have problem with the run in the NFL but he didn't in college. The statement just doesn't make sense. Teams ran away from Clowney because they were afraid of him in both the pass and run.

Like I said before, he will have to get better at using his hands. NFL T's will get I to his body if he doesn't, bit in the run and the pass.

Again I think we're going to have to wait and see. I've seen him play and you've seen him play, and I've seen some flaws that may be exploited at the pro level while acknowledging simultaneously that he is a dominant physical specimen and superb pass rusher, while you apparently see the virtually perfect DE.

The only way I see any resolution is to watch what happens. But at least the rhetoric has been toned down and we're at least having a good discussion. I appreciate that.

I see a virtually perfect DE? I've pointed out flaws and things he needs to improve upon several times. That doesn't change the fact that he's the best prospect in this class and perhaps the best I've ever seen. No prospect is perfect. Not Clowney, not Luck, not Elway or anyone else.

 

[Faust]

I've gone back and looked more into Mack and have a question for some of the guys who really love him. Why did he disappear so much in certain games vs. lower competition? Particularly games vs. Baylor, Eastern Michigan and Ohio.

I heard this brought up by someone else a while back and never really looked into it much until recently. It seems Mack is largely getting blown up for his performance vs. tOSU but nobody talks about his weaknesses like Clowney. Seems like recency bias to me.

Khalil Mack playing in MAC could keep him from going No. 1

 

[jurb26]

I've gone back and looked more into Mack and have a question for some of the guys who really love him. Why did he disappear so much in certain games vs. lower competition? Particularly games vs. Baylor, Eastern Michigan and Ohio.

I heard this brought up by someone else a while back and never really looked into it much until recently. It seems Mack is largely getting blown up for his performance vs. tOSU but nobody talks about his weaknesses like Clowney. Seems like recency bias to me.

Khalil Mack playing in MAC could keep him from going No. 1

Yikes, that's kind of scary that article came out about an hour after my post.

 

[Faust]

Could Khalil Mack — and not Jadeveon Clowney — be the first pick of the Texans?

 

[Steve Tasker]

I've gone back and looked more into Mack and have a question for some of the guys who really love him. Why did he disappear so much in certain games vs. lower competition? Particularly games vs. Baylor, Eastern Michigan and Ohio.

I heard this brought up by someone else a while back and never really looked into it much until recently. It seems Mack is largely getting blown up for his performance vs. tOSU but nobody talks about his weaknesses like Clowney. Seems like recency bias to me.

Honestly, as someone who watched possibly every game of Mack's college career (or at least 90% of them), I can tell you that pretty much every team did specifically gameplan against him, hardcore. Triple-teams and the like. I'm sure teams did that against Clowney as well, but I didn't see nearly as many of his games so I can't pretend to be an expert on that.

The Baylor game was an aberration. The team was just run off the field in a track meet. You insert Clowney into the UB defense against Baylor and he's invisible just like Mack was. It's not like South Carolina where they're at least closely-matched with their best opponents; UB was a joke compared to Baylor.

The one thing that I really love about watching Mack play is that he is everywhere. Wherever the ball is, he's there, lurking. I know the knock on Clowney is that he takes plays off, and I can assure you that Mack doesn't. He'd be in a wide 9, the opponent would run a sweep the other way, and he'd get sideline to sideline and make a play, at least a few times a game. A good description would be a one-man-wrecking-ball. I think he does need to work on his coverage a little bit to excel in the pros, but he's an incredible ballhawk for an OLB. Run-stopping and pass-rushing, I have no doubts that he can excel in the NFL at those facets.

Honestly though, I am surprised by the hype. He deserves to be picked early, no doubt. He's earned it. But would I take him #1 if I were a GM? I don't know abou that. I recognize that I'm biased though.

 

[cstu]

I've gone back and looked more into Mack and have a question for some of the guys who really love him. Why did he disappear so much in certain games vs. lower competition? Particularly games vs. Baylor, Eastern Michigan and Ohio.

I heard this brought up by someone else a while back and never really looked into it much until recently. It seems Mack is largely getting blown up for his performance vs. tOSU but nobody talks about his weaknesses like Clowney. Seems like recency bias to me.

Honestly, as someone who watched possibly every game of Mack's college career (or at least 90% of them), I can tell you that pretty much every team did specifically gameplan against him, hardcore. Triple-teams and the like. I'm sure teams did that against Clowney as well, but I didn't see nearly as many of his games so I can't pretend to be an expert on that.The Baylor game was an aberration. The team was just run off the field in a track meet. You insert Clowney into the UB defense against Baylor and he's invisible just like Mack was. It's not like South Carolina where they're at least closely-matched with their best opponents; UB was a joke compared to Baylor.

The one thing that I really love about watching Mack play is that he is everywhere. Wherever the ball is, he's there, lurking. I know the knock on Clowney is that he takes plays off, and I can assure you that Mack doesn't. He'd be in a wide 9, the opponent would run a sweep the other way, and he'd get sideline to sideline and make a play, at least a few times a game. A good description would be a one-man-wrecking-ball. I think he does need to work on his coverage a little bit to excel in the pros, but he's an incredible ballhawk for an OLB. Run-stopping and pass-rushing, I have no doubts that he can excel in the NFL at those facets.

Honestly though, I am surprised by the hype. He deserves to be picked early, no doubt. He's earned it. But would I take him #1 if I were a GM? I don't know abou that. I recognize that I'm biased though.

Mack is deserving of the #1 pick. I called him the safest pick in the draft and whoever gets him will get a good OLB for a long time. He's the one player I firmly believe won't be a bust and there's a high likelihood he'll be a Pro Bowl player within a couple years.

That said, I think Clowney will be a player teams scheme around more than Mack in the NFL. Can't blame any team for preferring Mack over Clowney but Clowney is the biggest difference maker in the draft.

For the Texans they almost need to take Clowney or trade down with the Falcons because they do not want to face him twice a year against the Jags. Imagine the most talented player in the draft who is only being held back by his motivation having a fire lit under him by a perceived slight by the Texans. Think Moss vs. the Cowboys.

 

[jurb26]

To me the only argument for a player going 1 over Clowney would be Robinson. Even then it's not a great argument. Robinson is a better player than Mack though and also plays one of the most critical positions in football.

 

[Faust]

Big Ten teams lack speed to compete outside conferenceGil Brandt

Published: Nov. 19, 2013 at 04:13 p.m.

Updated: Nov. 19, 2013 at 07:13 p.m.

Excerpt:

Here's something else that to me is telling about Ohio State (and by extension the Big Ten). Buffalo LB Khalil Mack, a top NFL prospect, destroyed the Buckeyes in the season opener with two tackles for loss, 2.5 sacks, and an INT-TD return. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Had the draft been held the day after that game, he would have been a top-10 pick. But unfortunately for Mack he had to play Baylor the next week, and was limited to three solo tackles, no tackles for loss and no sacks.

Speed and quickness was the difference.

 

[jurb26]

Big Ten teams lack speed to compete outside conference

Gil Brandt

Published: Nov. 19, 2013 at 04:13 p.m.

Updated: Nov. 19, 2013 at 07:13 p.m.

Excerpt:

Here's something else that to me is telling about Ohio State (and by extension the Big Ten). Buffalo LB Khalil Mack, a top NFL prospect, destroyed the Buckeyes in the season opener with two tackles for loss, 2.5 sacks, and an INT-TD return. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Had the draft been held the day after that game, he would have been a top-10 pick. But unfortunately for Mack he had to play Baylor the next week, and was limited to three solo tackles, no tackles for loss and no sacks.

Speed and quickness was the difference.

Yeah, watching him in that game and also a few others I saw some tightness in his drop and hips I didn't like. He seems to be much better when attacking down hill. In space, he looked like a liability IMO.

 

[cstu]

To me the only argument for a player going 1 over Clowney would be Robinson. Even then it's not a great argument. Robinson is a better player than Mack though and also plays one of the most critical positions in football.

You're right, but the Texans have All-Pro Duane Brown. Greg Robinson looks like another Jason Peters so he'd likely be the 1.1 if the Texans needed him.