thehornet
Footballguy
dude he's been terrible all year. 1 great game. who cares if he has a good game tonight. he's already ruined most fantasy owners seasons and made the 49ers a mediocre team in the process. great prediction though, Einstein.
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Colin Kaepernick is Overrated in FF (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter tdmills
- Start date
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General Tso
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thehornet
Footballguy
thehornet
Footballguy
drummer
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
You must have missed week 1 and 8
thehornet
Footballguy
you guys are so serious. calm down. I'm glad he had good game.
drummer
Footballguy
Warrior
Footballguy
OU#1
Footballguy
drummer
Footballguy
Well, I wouldn't put it that way, but if you weren't risking anything tonight, then why complain? I don't ask this because I'm a 49er fan. If I played FF, I doubt I would have hardly any 49er players. I've learned enough here just being in the Shark Pool about FF.
If he sucks at FF, I'd agree because he does. But if he isn't risking anything for me, it's because I didn't risk anything for him. Then I may have learned something from the Sharks here.
Just sayin'.
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CalBear
Footballguy
Can we auto-ban anyone who uses the term "turd" to describe a football player? That might go towards making the Shark Pool less of a cesspool.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
That was a pretty awful performance, at home, vs Carolina, a few weeks ago.
Saw K'nick play in NO, not very good.
Any reason to think things turn out differently vs Seattle at home than what happened the first game or what we saw vs the Panthers?
Saw K'nick play in NO, not very good.
Any reason to think things turn out differently vs Seattle at home than what happened the first game or what we saw vs the Panthers?
boilerdave
Footballguy
I think there are a lot better options than Kaep vs Sea. I picked up Fitzpatrick and am hoping he can help me today (and through the playoffs).
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
I don't think so, he is up against it today. I would go with a sleeper type option against a weaker D than to start him against Seattle.
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
did the same, picked up McCown for this week... if I get bye I'll roll w/ Kaep the rest of the way.
Neofight
Footballguy
Would nimrod be permissible for you?
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
from the game thread...
Kaepernick is near the bottom of the league in completion percentage (?) and yardage. Aren't there teams that don't have two receiving weapons as good as Davis and Boldin, that have more efficient and productive QBs. I get that Boldin is past his prime, but he looked pretty good in the Super Bowl and week one. Does he have the advantage of one of the better OLs, which not all QBs do? Is it an advantage to have one of the best defenses in the league, to get the ball back after more three and outs, and win the field position battle. Is he an "everything needs to be perfect" kind of QB I've seen QBs characterized in some other threads (can't put my finger on which one)? Even if we had known the injuries were coming, after seeing how good he looked week one (didn't have Delanie Walker then), wasn't more expected? Are there ANY issues in his game deserving of criticism and disappointment this season, that are due to him, and not surrounding circumstances kind of causes and reasons (I wouldn't use the word excuses, I don't really like that word, or the thinking behind it, that the thinking of those other than our own deserves to be marginalized, and is trivial)? I'm not a "hater" or fishing, I have him in a few dynasty leagues. I hope he does well and develops. But it is possible for me to still see his upside and express disappointment with this season. I would worry more about a scout that said a prospect had absolutely no flaws. What does he need to work on and get better at (besides just needing Crabtree back, everybody gets that). BTW, he has been questioned for struggling with his progressions. I saw a recent game, maybe STL where they did a slo mo isolation shot on him, and he clearly went through three separate reads before going to his fourth. So that criticism could be blown out of proportion.
Sorry if this isn't formatted according to Strunk and White's Elements of Style, it seems to be an increasingly heinous crime, being a board to discuss football and all.
Kaepernick is near the bottom of the league in completion percentage (?) and yardage. Aren't there teams that don't have two receiving weapons as good as Davis and Boldin, that have more efficient and productive QBs. I get that Boldin is past his prime, but he looked pretty good in the Super Bowl and week one. Does he have the advantage of one of the better OLs, which not all QBs do? Is it an advantage to have one of the best defenses in the league, to get the ball back after more three and outs, and win the field position battle. Is he an "everything needs to be perfect" kind of QB I've seen QBs characterized in some other threads (can't put my finger on which one)? Even if we had known the injuries were coming, after seeing how good he looked week one (didn't have Delanie Walker then), wasn't more expected? Are there ANY issues in his game deserving of criticism and disappointment this season, that are due to him, and not surrounding circumstances kind of causes and reasons (I wouldn't use the word excuses, I don't really like that word, or the thinking behind it, that the thinking of those other than our own deserves to be marginalized, and is trivial)? I'm not a "hater" or fishing, I have him in a few dynasty leagues. I hope he does well and develops. But it is possible for me to still see his upside and express disappointment with this season. I would worry more about a scout that said a prospect had absolutely no flaws. What does he need to work on and get better at (besides just needing Crabtree back, everybody gets that). BTW, he has been questioned for struggling with his progressions. I saw a recent game, maybe STL where they did a slo mo isolation shot on him, and he clearly went through three separate reads before going to his fourth. So that criticism could be blown out of proportion.
Sorry if this isn't formatted according to Strunk and White's Elements of Style, it seems to be an increasingly heinous crime, being a board to discuss football and all.
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
An exchange with Drummer helped clarify my thinking about Kaepernick's play this season, its context and what that could mean for his future. I just wanted acknowledge his role, and not have that post buried in a weekly game thread, as it is more relevant here...
"Off the top of my head, the one new thing I learned was about the former SF personnel lead that is now in SEA. I agree that they have been great at building the defense (like you said, spanning several personnel regimes). Impact free agents at every level (Justin Smith, Ahmad Brooks, Donte Whitner, Carlos Rogers). Committing high picks such as first rounders Patrick Willis, Aldon Smith and Eric Reid, and a great value pick in Navorro Bowman. Third rounder Russell Wilson is probably the best value pick on offense in the entire division. I think third rounder Bowman is his defensive counterpart in the entire division. On offense, I think they did a good job building the OL, and committing draft resources to that area. But I agree, they have whiffed badly on some recent picks (as noted, RB James and WR Jenkins, among others), which left Kaepernick's potential skill position weapons depleted when Crabtree went down with the ruptured Achilles tendon (have to think that was before preseason and earlier in the offseason for him to be back on the field in December). He flashed some explosiveness against SEA in just his second game back, I'm guardedly optimistic and hopeful he can come all the way back like Demaryius Thomas (also retired LB Takeo Spikes), who had the same injury. There was a medical paper floating around in the aether, with conclusions coopted by football sites, that were pessimistic about the prognosis of this type of injury based on some medical case histories. Staffer Dr. Jene Bramel pointed out a few flaws in his opinion on how the study was set up and the conclusions they drew, but among his most substantive criticism imo was that it was an older study that didn't account for modern surgical and rehab techniques. They were very good for each other, and Kaepernick helped him to emerge as a star in a way Smith never had before, so the obvious inference to draw is he is far more talented than Smith. I agree he has far more upside, I never questioned the move at the time and applauded it. Kaepernick should go to the positive ledger among the few recent success stories on that side of the ball for the 49ers GM. It is unfortunate rookie WR Patton had the injury setback, he could have helped while Crabtree was out. IMO he has the talent to eventually emerge as a starter opposite Crabtree once Boldin rides into the sunset (FAR more talented than the likes of since departed Williams and Jenkins - and I don't mean that in a damning with faint praise sense
). DAL third round rookie WR Terrance Williams of Baylor led the NCAA with 1,800+ receiving yards in 2012. But Patton led the nation in receiving yards for 2011-2012 COMBINED. Davis isn't old, and is the Calvin Johnson of TEs as a physical specimen and athletic phenom, so Kaepernick has some good weapons (when healthy) to mature and develope with.
I think we had similar facts to work with (you seem to be wired in to the social media side, which is interesting to me, but not as much as scouting-type info and the draft... the draft is great, because each year and season is new). Maybe it wasn't for lack of them that I saw things somewhat differently (I was aware of the injuries), but due to differences of interpretation of those same facts. But after thinking about it, maybe our difference had more to do with you having more realistic expectations, and maybe what he has done in the first three months or so accurately reflects what his approximate expected capability should have been given these challenges. Ironically, far from being a hater, my expectations may have been higher than yours, which led to a larger sense of disappointment. Not just the first game against GB... but taken in combination with the playoff game against GB, which was one of the greatest performances I've ever seen by a running QB (record?), my expectations were high going into the season, even knowing about Crabtree's injury. The fact that even AFTER GB had eight months to study how to defeat him, and STILL couldn't neutralize him, accentuated this sense. So this dynamic might have conspired to create unrealistic expectations. In retrospect, that might have been my first mistake, in inferring too much from the two decisive wins and Kaepernick performances against GB. If a bad defense can be gashed once, it can be gashed twice, etc."
"Off the top of my head, the one new thing I learned was about the former SF personnel lead that is now in SEA. I agree that they have been great at building the defense (like you said, spanning several personnel regimes). Impact free agents at every level (Justin Smith, Ahmad Brooks, Donte Whitner, Carlos Rogers). Committing high picks such as first rounders Patrick Willis, Aldon Smith and Eric Reid, and a great value pick in Navorro Bowman. Third rounder Russell Wilson is probably the best value pick on offense in the entire division. I think third rounder Bowman is his defensive counterpart in the entire division. On offense, I think they did a good job building the OL, and committing draft resources to that area. But I agree, they have whiffed badly on some recent picks (as noted, RB James and WR Jenkins, among others), which left Kaepernick's potential skill position weapons depleted when Crabtree went down with the ruptured Achilles tendon (have to think that was before preseason and earlier in the offseason for him to be back on the field in December). He flashed some explosiveness against SEA in just his second game back, I'm guardedly optimistic and hopeful he can come all the way back like Demaryius Thomas (also retired LB Takeo Spikes), who had the same injury. There was a medical paper floating around in the aether, with conclusions coopted by football sites, that were pessimistic about the prognosis of this type of injury based on some medical case histories. Staffer Dr. Jene Bramel pointed out a few flaws in his opinion on how the study was set up and the conclusions they drew, but among his most substantive criticism imo was that it was an older study that didn't account for modern surgical and rehab techniques. They were very good for each other, and Kaepernick helped him to emerge as a star in a way Smith never had before, so the obvious inference to draw is he is far more talented than Smith. I agree he has far more upside, I never questioned the move at the time and applauded it. Kaepernick should go to the positive ledger among the few recent success stories on that side of the ball for the 49ers GM. It is unfortunate rookie WR Patton had the injury setback, he could have helped while Crabtree was out. IMO he has the talent to eventually emerge as a starter opposite Crabtree once Boldin rides into the sunset (FAR more talented than the likes of since departed Williams and Jenkins - and I don't mean that in a damning with faint praise sense
). DAL third round rookie WR Terrance Williams of Baylor led the NCAA with 1,800+ receiving yards in 2012. But Patton led the nation in receiving yards for 2011-2012 COMBINED. Davis isn't old, and is the Calvin Johnson of TEs as a physical specimen and athletic phenom, so Kaepernick has some good weapons (when healthy) to mature and develope with.I think we had similar facts to work with (you seem to be wired in to the social media side, which is interesting to me, but not as much as scouting-type info and the draft... the draft is great, because each year and season is new). Maybe it wasn't for lack of them that I saw things somewhat differently (I was aware of the injuries), but due to differences of interpretation of those same facts. But after thinking about it, maybe our difference had more to do with you having more realistic expectations, and maybe what he has done in the first three months or so accurately reflects what his approximate expected capability should have been given these challenges. Ironically, far from being a hater, my expectations may have been higher than yours, which led to a larger sense of disappointment. Not just the first game against GB... but taken in combination with the playoff game against GB, which was one of the greatest performances I've ever seen by a running QB (record?), my expectations were high going into the season, even knowing about Crabtree's injury. The fact that even AFTER GB had eight months to study how to defeat him, and STILL couldn't neutralize him, accentuated this sense. So this dynamic might have conspired to create unrealistic expectations. In retrospect, that might have been my first mistake, in inferring too much from the two decisive wins and Kaepernick performances against GB. If a bad defense can be gashed once, it can be gashed twice, etc."
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chinawildman
Footballguy
I posted this in the seattle vs sf thread, probably more relevant here:
I'm actually going to statistically bang the drum in Kaepernick's favor for a bit for those who (including myself) are disillusioned that he isn't lighting it up this year...
1) Week 14 2012, this was his line at home against Miami: 18/23 185yds passing 53yds rushing 1 rushing TD. Wasn't exactly burning the house down and certainly not that much better than vs the seahawks last weekend. 6 out of the 10 games he started last year he threw for 1 TD or less. This year 8 out of 14.
2) The SF running game has mostly struggled: Gore is at his lowest YPC for his career and Hunter is more than a full yard per carry lower than his average last season. One can argue it's because teams have "figured out" the read/option, but they haven't ran that many read/option plays this year. You hear about how SF is a great running team, but the reality is that they are a middle of the road 4.2 YPC as a team. When teams fail to run effectively, QB play suffers (see Giants, Falcons, Baltimore this year)
3) The 49ers are currently 4th in yards allowed per game on defense. Every other team from 1-6 the 49ers have played this season, and one of them twice (seattle) Coincidentally those were also the games in which Kaepernick has struggled. Last season with the exception of Seattle(4th), Chicago(5th), Jets (8th) the 49ers did not face another team in the top 10 on defense, postseason included.
4) The 49ers no longer has anyone that can stretch the field. As old as Moss was and as bad a WR as Ginn was (arguable considering how much Carolina has gotten out of him) these guys DBs had to respect these guys deep. The 49ers vertical threat is their TE now, and he's missed 2 games (coincidentally again games in which Kaep has struggled mightily) This also probably has alot to do with why the run game has struggled.
5) The offensive line is playing very poorly. Hyped as one of the best in football, Football Outsiders grades them out at 30th in run blocking and 22nd in pass protection. For perspective, Arizona's shoddy no-name line grades out better in both categories.
The more I look into it, the less blame I attribute to Kaepernick's individual play. Does he need to lay off the weights and commercials? Sure. But there are other problems going on here that others have pointed out that makes this team as a whole inferior talent-wise to the one that lost to the Giants in the NFC championship 2 years ago.
I'm actually going to statistically bang the drum in Kaepernick's favor for a bit for those who (including myself) are disillusioned that he isn't lighting it up this year...
1) Week 14 2012, this was his line at home against Miami: 18/23 185yds passing 53yds rushing 1 rushing TD. Wasn't exactly burning the house down and certainly not that much better than vs the seahawks last weekend. 6 out of the 10 games he started last year he threw for 1 TD or less. This year 8 out of 14.
2) The SF running game has mostly struggled: Gore is at his lowest YPC for his career and Hunter is more than a full yard per carry lower than his average last season. One can argue it's because teams have "figured out" the read/option, but they haven't ran that many read/option plays this year. You hear about how SF is a great running team, but the reality is that they are a middle of the road 4.2 YPC as a team. When teams fail to run effectively, QB play suffers (see Giants, Falcons, Baltimore this year)
3) The 49ers are currently 4th in yards allowed per game on defense. Every other team from 1-6 the 49ers have played this season, and one of them twice (seattle) Coincidentally those were also the games in which Kaepernick has struggled. Last season with the exception of Seattle(4th), Chicago(5th), Jets (8th) the 49ers did not face another team in the top 10 on defense, postseason included.
4) The 49ers no longer has anyone that can stretch the field. As old as Moss was and as bad a WR as Ginn was (arguable considering how much Carolina has gotten out of him) these guys DBs had to respect these guys deep. The 49ers vertical threat is their TE now, and he's missed 2 games (coincidentally again games in which Kaep has struggled mightily) This also probably has alot to do with why the run game has struggled.
5) The offensive line is playing very poorly. Hyped as one of the best in football, Football Outsiders grades them out at 30th in run blocking and 22nd in pass protection. For perspective, Arizona's shoddy no-name line grades out better in both categories.
The more I look into it, the less blame I attribute to Kaepernick's individual play. Does he need to lay off the weights and commercials? Sure. But there are other problems going on here that others have pointed out that makes this team as a whole inferior talent-wise to the one that lost to the Giants in the NFC championship 2 years ago.
drummer
Footballguy
The odd thing about the 49ers offense is: they are still around the same rank in scoring according to PFR at 11th over the past three seasons. This with the run game eroding, the defense dropping hard in the takeaway/giveaway ratio (they were +28 in 2011 to now +9 so far this season) as well as the decline of speed on the offense, and STs still struggling to find a decent return specialist. The 49ers are still a struggling passing team as they were in 2011. They are now struggling in more phases since outside of run defense because of all the team investment there. Add the the loss of targets for Kaep, and you can see why a lot of targets outside of those he is confident in can't break out due the the 49ers just not being as dominant as they were in 2011 stat wise overall, thus putting more pressure on the QB's role, to which Alex Smith didn't have to carry as much as Kaep does now.
What this means to you FF guys: there lies you answer with Kaep this season. Next season, who knows? I don't play FF, so I don't know what is tangible as far a QB's value in the immediate sense. All I can say as a 49er fan is that now they may try to transition the offense more into a more dynamic one, just due to need and who they have with Kaep at QB with his physical traits. Otherwise, they would had just stuck with Alex Smith.
I get the paucity of fantasy value with Kaep this season, but the reality is the three main targets he has in Davis, Boldin and FB Bruce Miller are on their way to having fine seasons in relative stats, with Davis may having his best season as a 49er. Not in receptions and yards, but more in yards per reception and TDs. This with the lack of Crabtree and Mannigham. The other targets are either hurt, or unproductive to the point of just lining up to block or have no trust with the coaching staff to have any quality snaps.
I would look at the upside and think the 49ers are going to try to do their best in supporting Kaep, although they haven't due to GM Trent Baalke having brain farts with the offense this season, and getting too cute with the 2013 draft.
What this means to you FF guys: there lies you answer with Kaep this season. Next season, who knows? I don't play FF, so I don't know what is tangible as far a QB's value in the immediate sense. All I can say as a 49er fan is that now they may try to transition the offense more into a more dynamic one, just due to need and who they have with Kaep at QB with his physical traits. Otherwise, they would had just stuck with Alex Smith.
I get the paucity of fantasy value with Kaep this season, but the reality is the three main targets he has in Davis, Boldin and FB Bruce Miller are on their way to having fine seasons in relative stats, with Davis may having his best season as a 49er. Not in receptions and yards, but more in yards per reception and TDs. This with the lack of Crabtree and Mannigham. The other targets are either hurt, or unproductive to the point of just lining up to block or have no trust with the coaching staff to have any quality snaps.
I would look at the upside and think the 49ers are going to try to do their best in supporting Kaep, although they haven't due to GM Trent Baalke having brain farts with the offense this season, and getting too cute with the 2013 draft.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Credit where credit is due.
Sensational first half by Kaepernick. 11/13-148-2 passing, 3-32 rushing.
Not a fluke, looking impressive doing it, composed in the pocket and surveying the field, buying time with his feet but looking to throw, making all the throws short, intermediate and long with touch, accuracy and arm strength (where needed).
Using his weapons effectively (especially Davis and Crabtree).
Sensational first half by Kaepernick. 11/13-148-2 passing, 3-32 rushing.
Not a fluke, looking impressive doing it, composed in the pocket and surveying the field, buying time with his feet but looking to throw, making all the throws short, intermediate and long with touch, accuracy and arm strength (where needed).
Using his weapons effectively (especially Davis and Crabtree).
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ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Crabtree back on the field does wonders for Kaep. He needs that guy in the outside he can trust, and Boldin alone wasn't doing it.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Sometimes you can take just one essential part from a car and it won't start (even though it has many parts)... like the battery.
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ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Yes sir. He's essential to that offense, and his targets will increase as he comes back, and Kaepernick's numbers will keep increasing as a result. Crabtree is incredibly underrated.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
They sort of had a symbiotic relationship. Kaepernick's superior ability (relative to Smith) actualized untapped potential in Crabtree and made him a star, whereas previously held back by Smith, he was probably more in the very good club. Of course, having two stars to throw to (with Vernon Davis) helps Kaepernick, and could eventually elevate him to stardom with further development and refinement of his formidable skill set.
