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College professor displays painting of a decapitated Trump with Hillary (1 Viewer)

IvanKaramazov said:
If you're going to draw an analogy to Muslim extremists freaking out over drawings of Mohammed, it's worth noting that in this case it's actually the artist who is (arguably) advocating violence over political/ideological differences.  
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The artist isn't advocating violence.  Don't be silly. 

 
Henry Ford said:
10 hours ago, jon_mx said:

Leftist are funny creatures.  Advocate things like making hate speech a crime, but apparently unanimously support this
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If it helps, I don't advocate making hate speech a crime. 
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No one on the left outside of Howard Dean has been advocating that, and he drew criticism from liberals and progressives for that stance. According to jonny, "leftists" want the constitution amended to ban hate speech, which is a leap he made from a single poll asking respondents a very general question with no specific solutions provided. No one outside of Dean has been calling for anything like that and this outrage by Higgs and friends who normally decry the PC culture is both sad and unintentionally amusing.

 
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adonis said:
Yeah, I think that threats against the president should be taken seriously, and if there's a legit way of taking this painting as a threat against Trump, it should be investigated.

Seems like an artist's attempt to make a political statement and he uses things like decapitations, captain america, and other symbolic things to drive it home.  I'm no critic and I won't try to say whether it's good art or not, but it certainly seems to have made people talk...but it seems like some of that conversation is going dangerously close to the kinds of reactions we'd expect from Muslims who call for the murder of cartoonists who portray Muhammad.  It's not quite that extreme, but if we're inching closer to a position where folks can't be blasphemous towards religion or public figures (so long as there's no real desire to incite violence or threaten folks), then it seems a step in the wrong direction imo.
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If the artist used a muslim looking man holding Trumps head would you feel different?  Given the travel ban it could be considered satire.

 
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Henry Ford said:
The artist isn't advocating violence.  Don't be silly. 
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Nobody here is actually advocating violence.  But if you're going to pick out somebody who is headed down that path, which is what adonis was trying to do, then it seems logical to start with the guy who thinks it's cool and provocative to draw pictures involving the decapitation of people who he doesn't like and the sexual enslavement of those who he does like.  Not the folks who are saying "Ew."

 
timschochet said:
Not really pro or against anything. I just don't care. 

We're living in times when there's plenty to be concerned about. Yet people choose the oddest things for outrage. I have to applaud whoever created the term "snowflake" for the overly sensitive. That's what Higgs, jon mx, and a few others in here are: snowflakes. 
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I am a lot of things, but I'm not a ❄️.  All I said was that the painting, and the Left in general, have been revolting lately.  I'm allowed to have an opinion.  I think it's over the top violence, that's all.  I don't have a problem with the painting being displayed.  I don't think the Professor should be fired or boycotted either.  I just don't like it.  And yes, I hated it when Obama was depicted that way.

 
Da Guru said:
adonis said:
Yeah, I think that threats against the president should be taken seriously, and if there's a legit way of taking this painting as a threat against Trump, it should be investigated.

Seems like an artist's attempt to make a political statement and he uses things like decapitations, captain america, and other symbolic things to drive it home.  I'm no critic and I won't try to say whether it's good art or not, but it certainly seems to have made people talk...but it seems like some of that conversation is going dangerously close to the kinds of reactions we'd expect from Muslims who call for the murder of cartoonists who portray Muhammad.  It's not quite that extreme, but if we're inching closer to a position where folks can't be blasphemous towards religion or public figures (so long as there's no real desire to incite violence or threaten folks), then it seems a step in the wrong direction imo.
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If the artist used a muslim looking man holding Trumps head would you feel different?  Given the travel ban it could be considered satire.
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I'm not sure I'd feel differently on the issue itself (free speech).  I'd have a different reaction to the art for sure...same thing in that i'd have a different personal reaction to the art if it were Obama's head, but i'd be unlikely to suggest it's not covered speech or to call for the professor's job.

I'd like to think I'd be consistent in my position that we shouldn't be stepping closer to censorship of political, societal, or other speech.  Freedom of Speech is so important to protect because of all our tendencies to want to shut down another person's ability to say things we don't like.  We all have that desire in us, to find things that other folks say outrageous or dangerously wrong, blasphemous, insulting, etc.  But we're a better country when we draw the lines of acceptable speech as broadly as possible...and fight against making it narrow just because we may consider something offensive.

Again, if it's inciting violence or a direct threat to President Trump, it's a different story...but even barring language that can be considered to incite violence can be used against movements, like the civil rights movement, to keep folks people disagree with from having their voices heard.  

It's a fine line to walk, between what kind of speech should be allowed and what shouldn't, and every time we creep in and say certain types of speech should not be allowed, I think it's a danger to our country and our principles.  I find this artwork particularly harmless, which makes any serious backlash against it all the more discouraging...(similarly discouraging when Berkley folks threaten violence to keep outrageous conservative, or otherwise controversial, folks from speaking there - it's a bad thing for the country).

 
If this was a painting done by a Right-leaning professor with the roles reversed and Trump was doing this to Obama or Clinton, we would have every form of "ism" "Ist" word being thrown around. It would have been front page news on CNN and the calls for the professor's firing would be deafening. Let's just have some honesty here.

The Left screams freedom of expression as long as it is their position that is being presented, but the minute it is a counter-point and something they don't like, we need to shut it down or censor it. Interesting piece on CNN the other day (and I know there is a whole thread on this) but of  300 reported speech suppressed events (where the speaker was either not being allowed to speak or being boycotted) 3/4 of the events were being suppressed by the Left.

As far as my opinion, i could care less about this guy's artistic endeavors. If he wants to create a bust of Trump's head made of his own feces, go for it. Knock your little sobbing self out. 

 
jon_mx said:
You have become a classless idiot consumed by hatred.  Really sad.  Not even any truth in your characterization.  I was not doing anything but pointing out the ridiculous hypocrisy, but you got your head too far up to even see straight anymore.  
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Yup.  He totally misread that.

 
Courtjester said:
If this was a painting done by a Right-leaning professor with the roles reversed and Trump was doing this to Obama or Clinton, we would have every form of "ism" "Ist" word being thrown around. It would have been front page news on CNN and the calls for the professor's firing would be deafening. Let's just have some honesty here.

The Left The typical partisan on either side screams freedom of expression as long as it is their position that is being presented, but the minute it is a counter-point and something they don't like, we need to shut it down or censor it. Interesting piece on CNN the other day (and I know there is a whole thread on this) but of  300 reported speech suppressed events (where the speaker was either not being allowed to speak or being boycotted) 3/4 of the events were being suppressed by the Left.

As far as my opinion, i could care less about this guy's artistic endeavors. If he wants to create a bust of Trump's head made of his own feces, go for it. Knock your little sobbing self out. 
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My impression is that relatively few people really support freedom of speech as a genuine matter of principle.  Most people are really good at inventing a reason for banning or otherwise punishing speech that they happen to dislike.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
My impression is that relatively few people really support freedom of speech as a genuine matter of principle.  Most people are really good at inventing a reason for banning or otherwise punishing speech that they happen to dislike.
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IK, I actually think most of this board supports it, with some exceptions for things like bomb threats and the like.  

 
Courtjester said:
If this was a painting done by a Right-leaning professor with the roles reversed and Trump was doing this to Obama or Clinton, we would have every form of "ism" "Ist" word being thrown around. It would have been front page news on CNN and the calls for the professor's firing would be deafening. Let's just have some honesty here.

The Left screams freedom of expression as long as it is their position that is being presented, but the minute it is a counter-point and something they don't like, we need to shut it down or censor it. Interesting piece on CNN the other day (and I know there is a whole thread on this) but of  300 reported speech suppressed events (where the speaker was either not being allowed to speak or being boycotted) 3/4 of the events were being suppressed by the Left.

As far as my opinion, i could care less about this guy's artistic endeavors. If he wants to create a bust of Trump's head made of his own feces, go for it. Knock your little sobbing self out. 
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Really? I doubt that. Can you name one instance during Obama's 8 years that is analogous to this where it was front page news on CNN and the outrage from the left was deafening? I really don't recall anything similar during Obama's tenure.

 
Zow said:
I taught a college law and politics class for several years. First class I'd always start by taking a divisive issue (usually the death penalty) and get students to give me reasons for or against. I'd intentionally stop when it appeared that there were near or the same number of arguments on each side and use that to launch into how it was my goal to get them to see each side and, ideally, be able to eventually argue a particular side of an issue without ceding to one's own personal beliefs. Almost inevitably somebody would ask me about my personal beliefs and I'd say that, if I was doing my job right, at the end of the semester my personal beliefs should still be anyone's guess. 

No way is this guy's painting appropriate if it's in any way associated with his classroom. 
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You taught law and politics.

This guy teaches painting. 

 
Courtjester said:
If this was a painting done by a Right-leaning professor with the roles reversed and Trump was doing this to Obama or Clinton, we would have every form of "ism" "Ist" word being thrown around. It would have been front page news on CNN and the calls for the professor's firing would be deafening. Let's just have some honesty here.

The Left screams freedom of expression as long as it is their position that is being presented, but the minute it is a counter-point and something they don't like, we need to shut it down or censor it. Interesting piece on CNN the other day (and I know there is a whole thread on this) but of  300 reported speech suppressed events (where the speaker was either not being allowed to speak or being boycotted) 3/4 of the events were being suppressed by the Left.

As far as my opinion, i could care less about this guy's artistic endeavors. If he wants to create a bust of Trump's head made of his own feces, go for it. Knock your little sobbing self out. 
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Perhaps. And, a bunch of people on the right would be talking about how this is no big deal, grow a pair, snowflakes, etc. It's the same #### over and over again yet people click on the story so it continues. Everyone should get this by now.

That's exactly why this is a nonstory.

 
Reg Lllama of Brixton said:
Zow said:
I taught a college law and politics class for several years. First class I'd always start by taking a divisive issue (usually the death penalty) and get students to give me reasons for or against. I'd intentionally stop when it appeared that there were near or the same number of arguments on each side and use that to launch into how it was my goal to get them to see each side and, ideally, be able to eventually argue a particular side of an issue without ceding to one's own personal beliefs. Almost inevitably somebody would ask me about my personal beliefs and I'd say that, if I was doing my job right, at the end of the semester my personal beliefs should still be anyone's guess. 

No way is this guy's painting appropriate if it's in any way associated with his classroom. 
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You taught law and politics.

This guy teaches painting. 
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Exactly. How is this even remotely the same thing? Not all art is supposed to be paintings of landscapes. This is exactly the point.

 
Da Guru said:
?? CNN: Teacher was fired in 2012 for Obama cartoons.

Interesting viewpoints  in this video.
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This was making a political statement on school grounds, in the hallway and I think any such cartoon no matter what the political point of view would have elicited the same reaction.

Also, I am not sure that an entry in CNN's "School of Thought" blog qualifies as CNN front page news from which the response from the left was deafening, as has been claimed. 

 
jon_mx said:
You are one of the few real free speech advocates remaining on the left.  A living dinosaur.  
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Puleeze!

Did Hillary, like Howard Dean, ever call for hate speech being banned or made illegal? Was there any call for that in the Democratic convention platform? I am progressive and belong to the ACLU, which is pretty much against suppression of  any speech in public venue - however at the same time I don't believe a University should be required to give a platform for a speaker when they can not guarantee the safety of their students or the public.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
13 minutes ago, squistion said:

Did Hillary, like Howard Dean, ever call for hate speech being banned or made illegal? 
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Flag Protection Act of 2005
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That was in 2005, she never referred to it as hate speech and she didn't advocate it again in either of her presidential runs of 2008 or 2016. The proposed bill was a novel attempt to equate flag-burning with cross-burning, which the Supreme Court, in a 2003 decision, said could be prosecuted under certain circumstances as a violation of civil rights law as the purpose was to intimidate people. However, it was not on solid legal footing, didn't fly at the time (so to speak) and was considered a political ploy or stunt as observers felt it had little chance of passing.

 
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The General said:
Conservatives complaining about free speech in a story involving some art teacher's free speech. This is mind bending.
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I don't hear anyone complaining about free speech.  What I hear is that people viewed it as distasteful, and also highlighting the hypocrisy with the way the Press treats stuff like this.   :shrug:

 
squistion said:
That was in 2005, she never referred to it as hate speech and she didn't advocate it again in either of her presidential runs of 2008 or 2016. The proposed bill was a novel attempt to equate flag-burning with cross-burning, which the Supreme Court, in a 2003 decision, said could be prosecuted under certain circumstances as a violation of civil rights law as the purpose was to intimidate people. However, it was not on solid legal footing, didn't fly at the time (so to speak) and was considered a political ploy or stunt as observers felt it had little chance of passing.
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:shrug:  You're the one who brought her up.  Just own it.

Edit: Personally, I think it's pretty obvious that cross-burning is hate speech.  Or to put it differently, if you don't consider cross-burning to be hate speech, then hate speech doesn't exist.

 
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Reg Lllama of Brixton said:
Wait...which side is getting all worked up over a painting?  
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Not one person on this thread got worked up or called for this guy to be fired.  It is funny watching a bunch of people who do get worked up about light-hearted comments about someone's hair looking like James Brown and then not seeing anything wrong with a decapitated head of the president being held up like a trophy.  It is an astonishing display of hypocrisy, but please continue making your strawman arguements as a lame defense.  It is really that hard to say this speech is an inappropriate display of hate? 

 
Higgs said:
I don't hear anyone complaining about free speech.  What I hear is that people viewed it as distasteful, and also highlighting the hypocrisy with the way the Press treats stuff like this.   :shrug:
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People are saying it shouldn't be displayed. Art is often purposefully distasteful.

I don't like Toby Keith but his "art" should be celebrated by rednecks across the country. I'll but the first Budweiser for them.

 
jon_mx said:
Not one person on this thread got worked up or called for this guy to be fired.  It is funny watching a bunch of people who do get worked up about light-hearted comments about someone's hair looking like James Brown and then not seeing anything wrong with a decapitated head of the president being held up like a trophy.  It is an astonishing display of hypocrisy, but please continue making your strawman arguements as a lame defense.  It is really that hard to say this speech is an inappropriate display of hate? 
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So we're gonna spend years with each side pointing out the hypocrisy of the other side, rather than discussing the underlying issues.  Seems like it's going to be a monumental waste of everyone's time.

 
The General said:
Conservatives complaining about free speech in a story involving some art teacher's free speech. This is mind bending.
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Nobody is complaining.  The point is if you don't see this as offensive speech, where in the world do you draw the line?  Democrats/Liberals who constantly attack hate speech are clearly being hopelessly hypocritical in not seeing anything wrong here.  The next time they attack hate speech (and it will happen again soon) this gets thrown in the face and they will look like fools.  

 
IvanKaramazov said:
:shrug:  You're the one who brought her up.  Just own it.

Edit: Personally, I think it's pretty obvious that cross-burning is hate speech.  Or to put it differently, if you don't consider cross-burning to be hate speech, then hate speech doesn't exist.
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Sorry, flag burning is not hate speech. And she never referred to it as hate speech.

 
adonis said:
So we're gonna spend years with each side pointing out the hypocrisy of the other side, rather than discussing the underlying issues.  Seems like it's going to be a monumental waste of everyone's time.
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The underlying issue is the left's assault on free speech and their hypocrisy.   It has nothing to do with censoring hate and everything to do with censoring content they disagree with.  

 
jon_mx said:
Nobody is complaining.  The point is if you don't see this as offensive speech, where in the world do you draw the line?  Democrats/Liberals who constantly attack hate speech are clearly being hopelessly hypocritical in not seeing anything wrong here.  The next time they attack hate speech (and it will happen again soon) this gets thrown in the face and they will look like fools.  
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I certainly don't draw the line at this painting by this guy. You seriously think this shouldn't be displayed? 

Feel free to get all fired about hypocrisy if that's your thing there's no shortage of that.

 
Seriously the hypocrisy is mind boggling.  i thought trump was elected to get rid of all the pc bull crap.  What happened to you conservatives?  

 
jon_mx said:
adonis said:
So we're gonna spend years with each side pointing out the hypocrisy of the other side, rather than discussing the underlying issues.  Seems like it's going to be a monumental waste of everyone's time.
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The underlying issue is the left's assault on free speech and their hypocrisy.   It has nothing to do with censoring hate and everything to do with censoring content they disagree with.  
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I think you'll find many on the left who disagree that content they disagree with should be censored.  The left is not a united group of folks...much less unified than those on the right.  Most liberally-minded folks I know think the Berkley folks are wrong, along with many others attempting to stifle free speech.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
You yourself just said that she equated it to cross-burning.  
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Not because it was hate speech. The bill was a poorly conceived attempt to equate flag burning in the same category as cross burning, except flag burning is considered symbolic speech, while cross burning is not, as it is used to intimidate a minority. Flag burning was simply not analogous, which is why the bill failed and I have never heard of anyone being intimidated or feeling they were subjected to hate speech by being in the presence of the flag being burned. It was a poorly conceived bill, but again, she never referred to flag burning at the time or subsequently as a form of hate speech.

 
jon_mx said:
Not one person on this thread got worked up or called for this guy to be fired.  It is funny watching a bunch of people who do get worked up about light-hearted comments about someone's hair looking like James Brown and then not seeing anything wrong with a decapitated head of the president being held up like a trophy.  It is an astonishing display of hypocrisy, but please continue making your strawman arguements as a lame defense.  It is really that hard to say this speech is an inappropriate display of hate? 
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:goodposting:

 
The real question is why anyone cares what some random guy in alaska does with his personal time...including the huff post.  Is it because it's a sensationalist rag?  Probably...

 
jon_mx said:
  It is funny watching a bunch of people who do get worked up about light-hearted comments about someone's hair looking like James Brown and then not seeing anything wrong with a decapitated head of the president being held up like a trophy.  It is an astonishing display of hypocrisy
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Good stuff

 
adonis said:
I think you'll find many on the left who disagree that content they disagree with should be censored.  The left is not a united group of folks...much less unified than those on the right.  Most liberally-minded folks I know think the Berkley folks are wrong, along with many others attempting to stifle free speech.
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Great comparison with the James Brown outrage.  Forgot about that.

 
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