Come get me Mr Abortion President (1 Viewer)

[joffer]

Just what this place needs is ANOTHER abortion thread.

it is Friday

 

[timschochet]

I don't know Peter Singer. Actually, my own moral justification for abortion has more to do with the rights of the woman to her body than it does the question of when life begins.

But in my response to Jayrod I was trying to be honest with him about my lack of guilt. Even I could philosophically or scientifically somehow be convinced that life begins at conception, I just don't emotionally accept it as the same thing. I just don't see it as murder.

 

[shader]

When I was 22 I got a girl pregnant. It's not that we weren't careful, but the condom slipped off- just one time, but that was it. I thought I was in love with her, but I wasn't- I was incredibly immature, and I was in love with the idea of having a girlfriend. (I had been a nerd in high school, so it took a while). Even so, I offered to marry her. I was in my 3rd year of college. She was working as a waitress.

Anyhow, she declined, and decided to get an abortion. I paid for it, drove her to the clinic, drove her home. My feelings at the time were entirely selfish- would she still want to be with me afterwards? About the abortion itself, I had no feeling one way or the other. I was numb. She broke up with me a few weeks later, and that made me miserable.

Several months after that I met the woman who became my wife. We've now been married over 20 years, and have two lovely children. I still think back about what would have happened if my girlfriend had chosen to have that baby? My entire life would have changed, and honestly, for the worst.

This is the kind of story that makes us pro-lifers livid and is exactly what I'd guess leads to abortions the vast majority of the time. You always hear the outrage over banning abortions because of rape and incest cases, but in reality it is a backup form of birth control for people who are casual and/or careless about sex.In my mind you and her decided to abort the baby because you had sex before you were ready to be parents and it was more convenient for you both that the baby die than you take responsibility for your actions.

The choice was to have sex. After that, you shouldn't be able to kill a living human just out of inconvenience. I know that isn't PC, but that is exactly how I feel.

I understand your feelings, Jayrod. Keep in mind that she's the one who decided to have an abortion. I would have supported her decision whatever it was. Despite my immaturity and unreadiness, I did offer to marry her. I would have honored that.But ultimately my disagreement with you has nothing to do with motives- I simply don't believe an abortion is the taking of a human life. So I don't feel the guilt that you would feel over my girlfriends' decisions.

This probably won't end well, but can you explain your rationale for why you don't believe an abortion is the taking of a human life?

Because when a fetus passes through the birth canal, "magic happens" and it turns into a homo sapien.

If you consider separating the mother from the baby "magic", so be it. After all you do worship rabbits that lay eggs and give children candy.

No I don't

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Because when a fetus passes through the birth canal, "magic happens" and it turns into a homo sapien.

Is your argument that there is no "magic" moment or that there is a different moment for the "magic"?

 

[shader]

When I was 22 I got a girl pregnant. It's not that we weren't careful, but the condom slipped off- just one time, but that was it. I thought I was in love with her, but I wasn't- I was incredibly immature, and I was in love with the idea of having a girlfriend. (I had been a nerd in high school, so it took a while). Even so, I offered to marry her. I was in my 3rd year of college. She was working as a waitress.

Anyhow, she declined, and decided to get an abortion. I paid for it, drove her to the clinic, drove her home. My feelings at the time were entirely selfish- would she still want to be with me afterwards? About the abortion itself, I had no feeling one way or the other. I was numb. She broke up with me a few weeks later, and that made me miserable.

Several months after that I met the woman who became my wife. We've now been married over 20 years, and have two lovely children. I still think back about what would have happened if my girlfriend had chosen to have that baby? My entire life would have changed, and honestly, for the worst.

This is the kind of story that makes us pro-lifers livid and is exactly what I'd guess leads to abortions the vast majority of the time. You always hear the outrage over banning abortions because of rape and incest cases, but in reality it is a backup form of birth control for people who are casual and/or careless about sex.In my mind you and her decided to abort the baby because you had sex before you were ready to be parents and it was more convenient for you both that the baby die than you take responsibility for your actions.

The choice was to have sex. After that, you shouldn't be able to kill a living human just out of inconvenience. I know that isn't PC, but that is exactly how I feel.

I understand your feelings, Jayrod. Keep in mind that she's the one who decided to have an abortion. I would have supported her decision whatever it was. Despite my immaturity and unreadiness, I did offer to marry her. I would have honored that.But ultimately my disagreement with you has nothing to do with motives- I simply don't believe an abortion is the taking of a human life. So I don't feel the guilt that you would feel over my girlfriends' decisions.

This probably won't end well, but can you explain your rationale for why you don't believe an abortion is the taking of a human life?

I doubt there is anything I can tell you on this subject which you haven't already heard many times.

Perhaps -- I haven't discussed it at any great length. My interest mainly comes from a book I read by Peter Singer, who is probably one of the most well known current philosophers and also a strong proponent of abortion.

Interestingly enough, he basically dismisses the idea that abortion is not the taking of human life as a flawed argument since human life most definitely begins at conception. Where he attacks the anti-abortion argument, though, is on the basis that it is sometimes ok to kill an innocent human being.

I don't know a lot of the science behind it, but the way he presented it was that people who believe human life begins at some other time basically don't know anything about science or embryology, which I found surprising because I had always heard the "where does life begin" argument as the primary defense of abortion.

Like I said, I just found it interesting because this was not some schmo with a blog, this was Peter Singer, a proponent of abortion, basically saying the whole "life doesn't begin at conception" argument doesn't really hold water.

Of course it doesn't hold water because it's hilarious. The only defense people can give is:

A) NOT ANOTHER ABORTION THREAD

or

B) The law says it's legal and calls it a fetus

But logic and science are pretty clear. My life began at conception. That's when my DNA began, so it's when my life began. Before that, I didn't exist. Same for every other human on earth, obviously.

 

[Apple Jack]

Ever seen a zygote cook ziti.

 

[joffer]

Because when a fetus passes through the birth canal, "magic happens" and it turns into a homo sapien.

Is your argument that there is no "magic" moment or that there is a different moment for the "magic"?

shader arguing about "when the magic happens" is hysterical.

 

[Kal El]

As a father, I don't understand how someone can kill an unborn child. The list of things I would do in order to help my children is an insanely long one, and when my wife found out she was pregnant for the first time, we immediately considered it a part of our family, even though we didn't know what gender it was yet. For me, life begins at conception, and abortion, for any other reason than the life of the mother or child is in danger, is tantamount to murder.

 

[timschochet]

As a father, I don't understand how someone can kill an unborn child. The list of things I would do in order to help my children is an insanely long one, and when my wife found out she was pregnant for the first time, we immediately considered it a part of our family, even though we didn't know what gender it was yet. For me, life begins at conception, and abortion, for any other reason than the life of the mother or child is in danger, is tantamount to murder.

I respect that you believe life begins at conception, and that you would never do it, and that you would like it to be illegal. I disagree, but I respect your views. What I can't respect is your absolutist opinion that it's murder and that no other perspectives are valid. Having an absolutist moral code is fine; seeking to impose that code on those who do not agree with you is not fine.

 

[CBusAlex]

This probably won't end well, but can you explain your rationale for why you don't believe an abortion is the taking of a human life?

Short answer: it doesn't have a functioning human brain. Under no other circumstances do we call a clump of tissue with no brain a "human life", so I don't see why we should in this instance either.

 

[Kal El]

As a father, I don't understand how someone can kill an unborn child. The list of things I would do in order to help my children is an insanely long one, and when my wife found out she was pregnant for the first time, we immediately considered it a part of our family, even though we didn't know what gender it was yet. For me, life begins at conception, and abortion, for any other reason than the life of the mother or child is in danger, is tantamount to murder.

I respect that you believe life begins at conception, and that you would never do it, and that you would like it to be illegal. I disagree, but I respect your views.What I can't respect is your absolutist opinion that it's murder and that no other perspectives are valid. Having an absolutist moral code is fine; seeking to impose that code on those who do not agree with you is not fine.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this topic. Still, we have several cases where a person kills a pregnant woman, and is charged for two counts of murder, yet if a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy, that's her choice to do so, and to hell with anyone who disagrees. To me, every person should have a chance at life, and that includes the unborn. I find it extremely selfish and sad that someone would want to end a child's life just because they think that having a child would interfere with their daily lives.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

To me, every person should have a chance at life, and that includes the unborn.

What about all of the wasted unfertilized eggs and sperm out there that could have become people? Shouldn't they have a chance too?

 

[Kal El]

To me, every person should have a chance at life, and that includes the unborn.

What about all of the wasted unfertilized eggs and sperm out there that could have become people? Shouldn't they have a chance too?

To be fair, if they aren't fertilized, then there's no life.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

To me, every person should have a chance at life, and that includes the unborn.

What about all of the wasted unfertilized eggs and sperm out there that could have become people? Shouldn't they have a chance too?

To be fair, if they aren't fertilized, then there's no life.

Well, sperm and eggs are technically alive, but that's not really the point. The point is that they could make a whole bunch of people. And those people will never "have a chance at life" if the sperm dies on a tissue or the egg gets thrown in the trash.

 

[Kal El]

To me, every person should have a chance at life, and that includes the unborn.

What about all of the wasted unfertilized eggs and sperm out there that could have become people? Shouldn't they have a chance too?

To be fair, if they aren't fertilized, then there's no life.

Well, sperm and eggs are technically alive, but that's not really the point. The point is that they could make a whole bunch of people. And those people will never "have a chance at life" if the sperm dies on a tissue or the egg gets thrown in the trash.

They're not considered a separate life form, until they combine together, at least that's how I learned it.

 

[Fennis]

When I was 22 I got a girl pregnant. It's not that we weren't careful, but the condom slipped off- just one time, but that was it. I thought I was in love with her, but I wasn't- I was incredibly immature, and I was in love with the idea of having a girlfriend. (I had been a nerd in high school, so it took a while). Even so, I offered to marry her. I was in my 3rd year of college. She was working as a waitress.

Anyhow, she declined, and decided to get an abortion. I paid for it, drove her to the clinic, drove her home. My feelings at the time were entirely selfish- would she still want to be with me afterwards? About the abortion itself, I had no feeling one way or the other. I was numb. She broke up with me a few weeks later, and that made me miserable.

Several months after that I met the woman who became my wife. We've now been married over 20 years, and have two lovely children. I still think back about what would have happened if my girlfriend had chosen to have that baby? My entire life would have changed, and honestly, for the worst.

I was working as a waitress in a cocktail bar

That much is true

But even then I knew I'd find a much better place

Either with or without you

Papa don't preach I'm in trouble deep

Papa don't preach, I've been losing sleep

But I made up my mind, I'm keeping my baby, hm

I'm gonna keep my baby, hm

He says that he's going to marry me

We can raise a little family

Maybe we'll be all right

It's a sacrifice

But my friends keep telling me to give it up

Saying I'm too young, I ought to live it up

What I need right now is some good advice, please

 

[IvanKaramazov]

As a father, I don't understand how someone can kill an unborn child. The list of things I would do in order to help my children is an insanely long one, and when my wife found out she was pregnant for the first time, we immediately considered it a part of our family, even though we didn't know what gender it was yet. For me, life begins at conception, and abortion, for any other reason than the life of the mother or child is in danger, is tantamount to murder.

I respect that you believe life begins at conception, and that you would never do it, and that you would like it to be illegal. I disagree, but I respect your views.What I can't respect is your absolutist opinion that it's murder and that no other perspectives are valid. Having an absolutist moral code is fine; seeking to impose that code on those who do not agree with you is not fine.

I'm a philosophical solipsist -- I don't believe that anybody really exists except for me. So I'm going to start killing people for sport.

Maybe you disagree with me. I can respect that, no problem, even though you don't really exist. But what I can't respect is you trying enforce your moral code on me. I demand that you join me in repealing laws against murder and manslaughter.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

To me, every person should have a chance at life, and that includes the unborn.

What about all of the wasted unfertilized eggs and sperm out there that could have become people? Shouldn't they have a chance too?

To be fair, if they aren't fertilized, then there's no life.

Well, sperm and eggs are technically alive, but that's not really the point. The point is that they could make a whole bunch of people. And those people will never "have a chance at life" if the sperm dies on a tissue or the egg gets thrown in the trash.

They're not considered a separate life form, until they combine together, at least that's how I learned it.

Why does that matter? They could become a banker or hairdresser or something, if only we would let them.

 

[Kal El]

As a father, I don't understand how someone can kill an unborn child. The list of things I would do in order to help my children is an insanely long one, and when my wife found out she was pregnant for the first time, we immediately considered it a part of our family, even though we didn't know what gender it was yet. For me, life begins at conception, and abortion, for any other reason than the life of the mother or child is in danger, is tantamount to murder.

I respect that you believe life begins at conception, and that you would never do it, and that you would like it to be illegal. I disagree, but I respect your views.What I can't respect is your absolutist opinion that it's murder and that no other perspectives are valid. Having an absolutist moral code is fine; seeking to impose that code on those who do not agree with you is not fine.

I'm a philosophical solipsist -- I don't believe that anybody really exists except for me. So I'm going to start killing people for sport.

Maybe you disagree with me. I can respect that, no problem, even though you don't really exist. But what I can't respect is you trying enforce your moral code on me. I demand that you join me in repealing laws against murder and manslaughter.

I was initially going to try and make a point like that, but I couldn't word it the way I wanted.

 

[Zow]

As a father, I don't understand how someone can kill an unborn child. The list of things I would do in order to help my children is an insanely long one, and when my wife found out she was pregnant for the first time, we immediately considered it a part of our family, even though we didn't know what gender it was yet. For me, life begins at conception, and abortion, for any other reason than the life of the mother or child is in danger, is tantamount to murder.

I respect that you believe life begins at conception, and that you would never do it, and that you would like it to be illegal. I disagree, but I respect your views.What I can't respect is your absolutist opinion that it's murder and that no other perspectives are valid. Having an absolutist moral code is fine; seeking to impose that code on those who do not agree with you is not fine.

I'm a philosophical solipsist -- I don't believe that anybody really exists except for me. So I'm going to start killing people for sport.

Maybe you disagree with me. I can respect that, no problem, even though you don't really exist. But what I can't respect is you trying enforce your moral code on me. I demand that you join me in repealing laws against murder and manslaughter.

While I disagree with your underlying point, I just want to say this is an impressive post.

 

[timschochet]

Nice try Ivan. But nobody is forcing you or anyone else to get an abortion.

 

[Jeremy]

As a father, I don't understand how someone can kill an unborn child. The list of things I would do in order to help my children is an insanely long one, and when my wife found out she was pregnant for the first time, we immediately considered it a part of our family, even though we didn't know what gender it was yet. For me, life begins at conception, and abortion, for any other reason than the life of the mother or child is in danger, is tantamount to murder.

My wife suffered a miscarriage many years ago. What came out of her was about the size of a grape. We felt a real sense of loss, and cried in each others arms for a little while. It was a rough week or so, maybe a little more than that for my wife. But it was nowhere near the grief we would have felt if it had died as an infant.

Some people said the baby was in heaven, and some suggested we have a funeral for it. We both thought that was really, really weird. We didn't need comforting to that degree and indeed found those ideas more upsetting than helpful. Maybe we're just cold people, but while it was painful, it wasn't the catastrophic event that I imagine losing a child would be. Honestly we were over it pretty quickly. I imagine losing is a child is something you never get over.

I don't where that puts me on the "where does life begin" spectrum. I do respect the opinion of those who think it's wrong. I lean that way myself. Murder seems like an exaggeration, though. I don't know if there's room for a middle ground.

I'm troubled by the conservative viewpoint that the only way to fight against abortion is to make it illegal. I feel like that would cause issues similar to prohibition. It would just move things underground. Wouldn't we be farther ahead to study the reasons women choose abortions and try to find solutions? I feel like most of the people who's hearts bleed for the unborn babies are the same ones who oppose any kind of government assistence, universal healthcare, gay adoption, sex education, planned parenthood, birth control in health care plans, a livable minimum wage, etc. I would think you'd have less abortions if the women who became pregnant unexpectedly felt less of a sense of hopelessness. I could be wrong.

 

[Zow]

Nice try Ivan. But nobody is forcing you or anyone else to get an abortion.

He's talking about the legitimate public interest in criminalizing murder. That doesn't force anyone to do anything either, but yet is completely legal and probably something we all agree with. If his initial premise were true that a fetus is a "life"** then his assertion and analogy would be spot on.

*Again, this entire debate centers around defining "life" which will never be agreed upon so this is all pointles).

** Casey v. Planned Parenthood addresses this questions and defines it (I think in a brilliant way), but naturally this is open to so much debate that, again, these conversations are pointless.

 

[NCCommish]

As a father, I don't understand how someone can kill an unborn child. The list of things I would do in order to help my children is an insanely long one, and when my wife found out she was pregnant for the first time, we immediately considered it a part of our family, even though we didn't know what gender it was yet. For me, life begins at conception, and abortion, for any other reason than the life of the mother or child is in danger, is tantamount to murder.

I respect that you believe life begins at conception, and that you would never do it, and that you would like it to be illegal. I disagree, but I respect your views.What I can't respect is your absolutist opinion that it's murder and that no other perspectives are valid. Having an absolutist moral code is fine; seeking to impose that code on those who do not agree with you is not fine.

I'm a philosophical solipsist -- I don't believe that anybody really exists except for me. So I'm going to start killing people for sport.

Maybe you disagree with me. I can respect that, no problem, even though you don't really exist. But what I can't respect is you trying enforce your moral code on me. I demand that you join me in repealing laws against murder and manslaughter.

Really? You are going with this tired murder should be legal meme? Come on haven't we done enough of these for something, you know, wittier?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

As a father, I don't understand how someone can kill an unborn child. The list of things I would do in order to help my children is an insanely long one, and when my wife found out she was pregnant for the first time, we immediately considered it a part of our family, even though we didn't know what gender it was yet. For me, life begins at conception, and abortion, for any other reason than the life of the mother or child is in danger, is tantamount to murder.

I respect that you believe life begins at conception, and that you would never do it, and that you would like it to be illegal. I disagree, but I respect your views.What I can't respect is your absolutist opinion that it's murder and that no other perspectives are valid. Having an absolutist moral code is fine; seeking to impose that code on those who do not agree with you is not fine.

I'm a philosophical solipsist -- I don't believe that anybody really exists except for me. So I'm going to start killing people for sport.

Maybe you disagree with me. I can respect that, no problem, even though you don't really exist. But what I can't respect is you trying enforce your moral code on me. I demand that you join me in repealing laws against murder and manslaughter.

Really? You are going with this tired murder should be legal meme? Come on haven't we done enough of these for something, you know, wittier?

It's a valid analogy showing why pro-lifers feel entitled to outlaw abortion. The "you don't have the right to impose your morality on me" argument works in a wide variety of instances. Abortion isn't one of them.

I should also start up a "meme" variant of the "ilk-tracking" thread.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

On a side note, "Abortion is equivalent to murder" is an argument, not a meme. Well, really it's just an assertion that needs to be backed up with an argument, but you get the point.

Ironically, using the term "meme" to dismiss arguments that you don't feel like refuting is itself actually a meme.

 

[Freelove]

As a father, I don't understand how someone can kill an unborn child. The list of things I would do in order to help my children is an insanely long one, and when my wife found out she was pregnant for the first time, we immediately considered it a part of our family, even though we didn't know what gender it was yet. For me, life begins at conception, and abortion, for any other reason than the life of the mother or child is in danger, is tantamount to murder.

I respect that you believe life begins at conception, and that you would never do it, and that you would like it to be illegal. I disagree, but I respect your views.What I can't respect is your absolutist opinion that it's murder and that no other perspectives are valid. Having an absolutist moral code is fine; seeking to impose that code on those who do not agree with you is not fine.

I'm a philosophical solipsist -- I don't believe that anybody really exists except for me. So I'm going to start killing people for sport.

Maybe you disagree with me. I can respect that, no problem, even though you don't really exist. But what I can't respect is you trying enforce your moral code on me. I demand that you join me in repealing laws against murder and manslaughter.

Really? You are going with this tired murder should be legal meme? Come on haven't we done enough of these for something, you know, wittier?

It's a valid analogy showing why pro-lifers feel entitled to outlaw abortion. The "you don't have the right to impose your morality on me" argument works in a wide variety of instances. Abortion isn't one of them.

I should also start up a "meme" variant of the "ilk-tracking" thread.

Luckily, there are systems of law and order in place that are able to separate the legitimate shades of grey such as Tim's from these purely rhetorical but otherwise absurd "valid analogies."

Absurd, not least of all, because there's no sense to codes of laws to govern a society in a solipsistic universe. Unless of course you want one, but then dissenting opinions are of course rendered absurd.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

As a father, I don't understand how someone can kill an unborn child. The list of things I would do in order to help my children is an insanely long one, and when my wife found out she was pregnant for the first time, we immediately considered it a part of our family, even though we didn't know what gender it was yet. For me, life begins at conception, and abortion, for any other reason than the life of the mother or child is in danger, is tantamount to murder.

I respect that you believe life begins at conception, and that you would never do it, and that you would like it to be illegal. I disagree, but I respect your views.What I can't respect is your absolutist opinion that it's murder and that no other perspectives are valid. Having an absolutist moral code is fine; seeking to impose that code on those who do not agree with you is not fine.

I'm a philosophical solipsist -- I don't believe that anybody really exists except for me. So I'm going to start killing people for sport.

Maybe you disagree with me. I can respect that, no problem, even though you don't really exist. But what I can't respect is you trying enforce your moral code on me. I demand that you join me in repealing laws against murder and manslaughter.

Really? You are going with this tired murder should be legal meme? Come on haven't we done enough of these for something, you know, wittier?

It's a valid analogy showing why pro-lifers feel entitled to outlaw abortion. The "you don't have the right to impose your morality on me" argument works in a wide variety of instances. Abortion isn't one of them.

I should also start up a "meme" variant of the "ilk-tracking" thread.

Luckily, there are systems of law and order in place that are able to separate the legitimate shades of grey such as Tim's from these purely rhetorical but otherwise absurd "valid analogies."

I agree. I actually completely understand why other people don't agree with my solipsism and I don't really blame them for making murder illegal even though it goes against my beliefs. After all, from their point of view, other people actually exist and have rights that the government is supposed to protect.

Now put yourself in shoes of someone who thinks that "life" begins at conception. From your point of view, a fetus is a person and has rights that the government is supposed to protect. When a pro-choicer objects that you shouldn't impose your morality on others, you should see why that objection doesn't apply.

 

[Kal El]

As a father, I don't understand how someone can kill an unborn child. The list of things I would do in order to help my children is an insanely long one, and when my wife found out she was pregnant for the first time, we immediately considered it a part of our family, even though we didn't know what gender it was yet. For me, life begins at conception, and abortion, for any other reason than the life of the mother or child is in danger, is tantamount to murder.

My wife suffered a miscarriage many years ago. What came out of her was about the size of a grape. We felt a real sense of loss, and cried in each others arms for a little while. It was a rough week or so, maybe a little more than that for my wife. But it was nowhere near the grief we would have felt if it had died as an infant.

Some people said the baby was in heaven, and some suggested we have a funeral for it. We both thought that was really, really weird. We didn't need comforting to that degree and indeed found those ideas more upsetting than helpful. Maybe we're just cold people, but while it was painful, it wasn't the catastrophic event that I imagine losing a child would be. Honestly we were over it pretty quickly. I imagine losing is a child is something you never get over.

I don't where that puts me on the "where does life begin" spectrum. I do respect the opinion of those who think it's wrong. I lean that way myself. Murder seems like an exaggeration, though. I don't know if there's room for a middle ground.

I'm troubled by the conservative viewpoint that the only way to fight against abortion is to make it illegal. I feel like that would cause issues similar to prohibition. It would just move things underground. Wouldn't we be farther ahead to study the reasons women choose abortions and try to find solutions? I feel like most of the people who's hearts bleed for the unborn babies are the same ones who oppose any kind of government assistence, universal healthcare, gay adoption, sex education, planned parenthood, birth control in health care plans, a livable minimum wage, etc. I would think you'd have less abortions if the women who became pregnant unexpectedly felt less of a sense of hopelessness. I could be wrong.

My condolences, but you do bring up several valid points. I would rather see these sorts of things be prevented via proper education, and many of the issues you mentioned could be helped along with similar measures. An ounce of prevention, as it were. The issue arises when people try to take advantage of the system, which isn't everyone, but it does happen. Sex education could do a lot to help, provided it's done intelligently. Abstinence-only education probably won't work, but I have no issue with that being taught as one of the most effective ways to prevent disease and undesired pregnancy.

The healthcare thing is a whole can of worms in and of itself, but personally I think medical bills are outrageous. For example, when my first daughter was born, if we didn't have insurance, it would have cost us $10,000. That's a stupidly high number. Healthcare should be available at a decent price, but it shouldn't be mandated by a government entity.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

When I was 22 I got a girl pregnant. It's not that we weren't careful, but the condom slipped off- just one time, but that was it. I thought I was in love with her, but I wasn't- I was incredibly immature, and I was in love with the idea of having a girlfriend. (I had been a nerd in high school, so it took a while). Even so, I offered to marry her. I was in my 3rd year of college. She was working as a waitress.

Anyhow, she declined, and decided to get an abortion. I paid for it, drove her to the clinic, drove her home. My feelings at the time were entirely selfish- would she still want to be with me afterwards? About the abortion itself, I had no feeling one way or the other. I was numb. She broke up with me a few weeks later, and that made me miserable.

Several months after that I met the woman who became my wife. We've now been married over 20 years, and have two lovely children. I still think back about what would have happened if my girlfriend had chosen to have that baby? My entire life would have changed, and honestly, for the worst.

I was working as a waitress in a cocktail bar

That much is true

But even then I knew I'd find a much better place

Either with or without you

Papa don't preach I'm in trouble deep

Papa don't preach, I've been losing sleep

But I made up my mind, I'm keeping my baby, hm

I'm gonna keep my baby, hm

He says that he's going to marry me

We can raise a little family

Maybe we'll be all right

It's a sacrifice

But my friends keep telling me to give it up

Saying I'm too young, I ought to live it up

What I need right now is some good advice, please

Now Brenda's gotta make her own way

Can't go to her family, they won't let her stay

No money no babysitter, she couldn't keep a job

She tried to sell crack, but end up getting robbed

So now what's next, there ain't nothing left to sell

So she sees sex as a way of leaving hell

It's paying the rent, so she really can't complain

Prostitute, found slain, and Brenda's her name, she's got a baby

 

[Josie Maran]

I'm having an abortion right now.

 

[Charlie Steiner]

When I was 22 I got a girl pregnant. It's not that we weren't careful, but the condom slipped off- just one time, but that was it. I thought I was in love with her, but I wasn't- I was incredibly immature, and I was in love with the idea of having a girlfriend. (I had been a nerd in high school, so it took a while). Even so, I offered to marry her. I was in my 3rd year of college. She was working as a waitress.

Anyhow, she declined, and decided to get an abortion. I paid for it, drove her to the clinic, drove her home. My feelings at the time were entirely selfish- would she still want to be with me afterwards? About the abortion itself, I had no feeling one way or the other. I was numb. She broke up with me a few weeks later, and that made me miserable.

Several months after that I met the woman who became my wife. We've now been married over 20 years, and have two lovely children. I still think back about what would have happened if my girlfriend had chosen to have that baby? My entire life would have changed, and honestly, for the worst.

I was working as a waitress in a cocktail bar

That much is true

But even then I knew I'd find a much better place

Either with or without you

Papa don't preach I'm in trouble deep

Papa don't preach, I've been losing sleep

But I made up my mind, I'm keeping my baby, hm

I'm gonna keep my baby, hm

He says that he's going to marry me

We can raise a little family

Maybe we'll be all right

It's a sacrifice

But my friends keep telling me to give it up

Saying I'm too young, I ought to live it up

What I need right now is some good advice, please

Now Brenda's gotta make her own way

Can't go to her family, they won't let her stay

No money no babysitter, she couldn't keep a job

She tried to sell crack, but end up getting robbed

So now what's next, there ain't nothing left to sell

So she sees sex as a way of leaving hell

It's paying the rent, so she really can't complain

Prostitute, found slain, and Brenda's her name, she's got a baby

Brenda and Eddie were the

Popular steadys

And the king and the queen

Of the prom

Riding around with the car top

Down and the radio on.

Nobody looked any finer

Or was more of a hit at the

Parkway Diner

We never knew we could want more

Than that out of life

Surely Brenda and Eddie would

Always know how to survive.

Brenda and Eddy were still going

Steady in the summer of '75

when they decided the marriage would

Be at the end of July

Everyone said they were crazy

"Brenda you know you're much too lazy

Eddie could never afford to live that

Kind of life."

But there we were wavin' Brenda and

Eddie goodbye.

They got an apartment with deep

Pile carpet

And a couple of paintings from Sears

A big waterbed that they bought

With the bread

They had saved for a couple

Of years

They started to fight when the

Money got tight

And they just didn't count on

The tears.

They lived for a while in a

Very nice style

But it's always the same in the end

They got a divorce as a matter

Of course

And they parted the closest

Of friends

Then the king and the queen went

Back to the green

But you can never go back

There again.

Brenda and Eddie had had it

Already by the summer of '75

From the high to the low to

The end of the show

For the rest of their lives

They couldn't go back to

The greasers

The best they could do was

Pick up the pieces

We always knew they would both

Find a way to get by

That's all I heard about

Brenda nd Eddie

Can't tell you more than I

Told you already

And here we are wavin' Brenda

And Eddie goodbye.