Commish Issue (1 Viewer)

[twistd]

In one league where I am commissioner I have an issue I'd like some feedback on. We had one game that came down to Monday night. Team A was up by about 6 points. Team B had Greg Salas playing. Salas had a fumble on a muffed punt. Our scoring system deducts a point for a fumble. It does not differentiate between whether that fumble occurred on a special teams play or a regular offensive play. Team A won by .1 points. The fumble was the difference. Now players can't score individual points on special teams plays, but the way our scoring system works they can lose points for fumbles. Team B is protesting this and wants a league vote.

My feeling is that because the system is set up the way it is the results stand. I understand that it would seem unfair that a player can't score positive points on special teams plays but can be dinged for negative plays. However, with the limitations of the scoring set up I don't see any alternative. Thoughts?

 

[Hoss_Cartwright]

In one league where I am commissioner I have an issue I'd like some feedback on. We had one game that came down to Monday night. Team A was up by about 6 points. Team B had Greg Salas playing. Salas had a fumble on a muffed punt. Our scoring system deducts a point for a fumble. It does not differentiate between whether that fumble occurred on a special teams play or a regular offensive play. Team A won by .1 points. The fumble was the difference. Now players can't score individual points on special teams plays, but the way our scoring system works they can lose points for fumbles. Team B is protesting this and wants a league vote. My feeling is that because the system is set up the way it is the results stand. I understand that it would seem unfair that a player can't score positive points on special teams plays but can be dinged for negative plays. However, with the limitations of the scoring set up I don't see any alternative. Thoughts?

Individual players are not part of the defense / special teams unless stated as such. So therefore a muffed punt on special teams does not count against the player individually. That is pretty standard across all of fantasy football land.

 

[Deflinkin]

Totally fair. Rules are rules and can't change mid season. The dude knew the risk.

It would be a terrible decision by you as the commissioner if you changed it otherwise.

If he doesn't like it, have a rules meeting next year before the draft to iron it out.

 

[The_Wolfman]

Players don't score ANY points for returns? Not even for return TDs?

Regardless, I don't see how you change whatever the rule is. A league vote is pointless, maybe you can vote to change the rule for next year but I don't think you can change any rule mid season.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

In one league where I am commissioner I have an issue I'd like some feedback on. We had one game that came down to Monday night. Team A was up by about 6 points. Team B had Greg Salas playing. Salas had a fumble on a muffed punt. Our scoring system deducts a point for a fumble. It does not differentiate between whether that fumble occurred on a special teams play or a regular offensive play. Team A won by .1 points. The fumble was the difference. Now players can't score individual points on special teams plays, but the way our scoring system works they can lose points for fumbles. Team B is protesting this and wants a league vote.

My feeling is that because the system is set up the way it is the results stand. I understand that it would seem unfair that a player can't score positive points on special teams plays but can be dinged for negative plays. However, with the limitations of the scoring set up I don't see any alternative. Thoughts?

Is this because the scoring features input into the system was entered incorrectly? This does not sound like an intentional scoring feature. If so, it's an odd one. And if a mistake, it should be fixed.

 

[wudaben]

It depends on what your rules actually say but there are a couple stats in our CBS league that the website doesn't accommodate properly so we manually correct those stats if necessary. I cannot think of the exact example but there is an item like certain returns for TD where it's the team's offense on the field and not the defense/ST. In this situation CBS charges the TD against your DST but we manually reverse it since it wasn't you DST on the field.

If the individual player cannot score a TD and keep the points then you shouldn't be able to penalize the individual player who fumbled just because the website doesn't properly track it.

 

[twistd]

Players don't score ANY points for returns? Not even for return TDs?Regardless, I don't see how you change whatever the rule is. A league vote is pointless, maybe you can vote to change the rule for next year but I don't think you can change any rule mid season.

Problem with this situation is that we don't have a rule that specifically addresses this. The scoring system was set up to subtract a point for a fumble. I think that you are right, if there isn't a rule in place governing this specific situation it needs to be addressed in the off season. Common sense would say that a player on special teams shouldn't be dinged for a fumble if they can't be credited for a TD, but if you don't specify that then you can't change things mid season.

 

[twistd]

In one league where I am commissioner I have an issue I'd like some feedback on. We had one game that came down to Monday night. Team A was up by about 6 points. Team B had Greg Salas playing. Salas had a fumble on a muffed punt. Our scoring system deducts a point for a fumble. It does not differentiate between whether that fumble occurred on a special teams play or a regular offensive play. Team A won by .1 points. The fumble was the difference. Now players can't score individual points on special teams plays, but the way our scoring system works they can lose points for fumbles. Team B is protesting this and wants a league vote.

My feeling is that because the system is set up the way it is the results stand. I understand that it would seem unfair that a player can't score positive points on special teams plays but can be dinged for negative plays. However, with the limitations of the scoring set up I don't see any alternative. Thoughts?

Is this because the scoring features input into the system was entered incorrectly? This does not sound like an intentional scoring feature. If so, it's an odd one. And if a mistake, it should be fixed.

Actually I am waiting for a response from the website people to see if it can be set up to differentiate between offensive plays and special teams plays. But I went back through the scoring set up and I don't see any option that would allow that. It simply allows you to set up negative points for fumbles. So the scoring wasn't entered incorrectly, we just didn't specifically state that fumbles on special teams would be treated differently than offensive fumbles.

 

[dwarfboy]

Technically speaking it's not a special teams play, but rather a defensive play since it's 4th down.

If a WR(Troy Brown) also played DB in an emergency, or was in for hail mary pass defense and they intercept the ball and subsequently fumble would they lose points for the fumble? Would they get the points if they intercept and score a TD?

 

[Captain Hook]

1) Your league does not have a good set of rules - Change it.....next year

2) Salas gets dinged for the fumble with your current rules and scoring

PS - the site won't help you - make a firm decision as commish and stick to it

 

[footballnerd]

Don't over think it, fumbles count against the individual player, whether hes on offense, defense, special teams, in the stands with a beer....if he fumbles he gets docked. I don't know any site that separates this out.

 

[atcdav]

Follow the rule. period. Hopefully the league has a means of dealing with the protest and a means of calling out the commish if need be. If we do not like the commish decision we can get a panel of 3 teams uninvolved to look at the situation and make a determination, But that process costs money. $20 to the complainer to avoid frivolous arguments.

we award IPRTD and IKRTD , other special teams TD go to def, fake FG for a TD is considered an offensive play not special teams FYI

 

[Joe Summer]

Totally fair. Rules are rules and can't change mid season.

But was this a "rule" or just an unwanted quirk of the third-party website?Would the muff be counted against the player if the scores were being tallied manually (in the pre-internet era)?edit: and what if the rules said "Players can't score points on defensive or special teams plays"??

 

[Joe Summer]

Technically speaking it's not a special teams play, but rather a defensive play since it's 4th down.

It's considered a Special Teams play anytime a ball is kicked and crosses the line of scrimmage.Of course, you are free to count them as Defensive plays in your fantasy league. But the NFL will count it in the Special Teams category.

 

[twistd]

I want to thank you all for the feedback. It was extremely helpful. I went ahead and ruled that the results stand. The rule is simply that a fumble is -1 point. There is no distinction between fumbles that occur on special teams and fumbles that occur on an offensive play. That is the rule as it is and that is what we have to abide by.

This is actually the first issue of this nature we have had in the six years this league has been in existence. It is a relatively drama free league.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

In one league where I am commissioner I have an issue I'd like some feedback on. We had one game that came down to Monday night. Team A was up by about 6 points. Team B had Greg Salas playing. Salas had a fumble on a muffed punt. Our scoring system deducts a point for a fumble. It does not differentiate between whether that fumble occurred on a special teams play or a regular offensive play. Team A won by .1 points. The fumble was the difference. Now players can't score individual points on special teams plays, but the way our scoring system works they can lose points for fumbles. Team B is protesting this and wants a league vote. My feeling is that because the system is set up the way it is the results stand. I understand that it would seem unfair that a player can't score positive points on special teams plays but can be dinged for negative plays. However, with the limitations of the scoring set up I don't see any alternative. Thoughts?

Individual players are not part of the defense / special teams unless stated as such. So therefore a muffed punt on special teams does not count against the player individually. That is pretty standard across all of fantasy football land.

this. If he scored it would credit to the defense/special teams. If he fumbled it should deduct from the defense special teams. This is why commisioners are allowed to make adjustments to the 'out of the box' scoring done by the websites.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

I want to thank you all for the feedback. It was extremely helpful. I went ahead and ruled that the results stand. The rule is simply that a fumble is -1 point. There is no distinction between fumbles that occur on special teams and fumbles that occur on an offensive play. That is the rule as it is and that is what we have to abide by. This is actually the first issue of this nature we have had in the six years this league has been in existence. It is a relatively drama free league.

you chose poorly.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Totally fair. Rules are rules and can't change mid season.

But was this a "rule" or just an unwanted quirk of the third-party website?Would the muff be counted against the player if the scores were being tallied manually (in the pre-internet era)?edit: and what if the rules said "Players can't score points on defensive or special teams plays"??

this. /thread that's what the computer says is a horrible way to make the decision.the player did not make the fumble as your rules define it, the defense and special teams did. This is especially true if you are a league that does not allow the points to go to the player if salas was to have returned the punt for a TD.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Don't over think it, fumbles count against the individual player, whether hes on offense, defense, special teams, in the stands with a beer....if he fumbles he gets docked. I don't know any site that separates this out.

why do you think most sites allow for commisioner adjustments? To fix the mistakes that are made by formulaic algorithms that don't conform to your league rules.put it this way, as someone above said. If you were scoring by hand what would you do?

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Players don't score ANY points for returns? Not even for return TDs?Regardless, I don't see how you change whatever the rule is. A league vote is pointless, maybe you can vote to change the rule for next year but I don't think you can change any rule mid season.

Problem with this situation is that we don't have a rule that specifically addresses this. The scoring system was set up to subtract a point for a fumble. I think that you are right, if there isn't a rule in place governing this specific situation it needs to be addressed in the off season. Common sense would say that a player on special teams shouldn't be dinged for a fumble if they can't be credited for a TD, but if you don't specify that then you can't change things mid season.

why have a commish then? Just let the computer handle everything. If you differentiate for defense/special teams play, then you have to acknowledge/deduct the fumble from them. I'll bet the 'fumbles -1' is listed under the "player scoring'. In this case the "player' was the stl D/st Not Salas. in the same manner that if Salas had scored it would not count in his favor.

 

[Vicktimized]

Totally fair. Rules are rules and can't change mid season.

But was this a "rule" or just an unwanted quirk of the third-party website?Would the muff be counted against the player if the scores were being tallied manually (in the pre-internet era)?edit: and what if the rules said "Players can't score points on defensive or special teams plays"??

this. /thread that's what the computer says is a horrible way to make the decision.the player did not make the fumble as your rules define it, the defense and special teams did. This is especially true if you are a league that does not allow the points to go to the player if salas was to have returned the punt for a TD.

I'd guess it would be ruled the same if he were doing manual scoring ... the stat sites would just say "Salas, fumble." Were it not a MNF game, nobody would likely have been able to differentiate. It's opening a new can of worms to say "Well, I saw this fumble and it shouldn't count" because what about every other fumble? How many fumbles happen on STs that you don't know about offhand?

 

[RUSF18]

To everyone saying "the rule states you lose a point for fumbles", doesn't that immediately conflict with "you cannot score points on defense and special teams"? Why are you applying the first when the second invalidates it in this situation?

Thinking of it another way, if your rule is "touchdowns are worth 6 points" and you also had a rule that states "you cannot score points on defense and special teams" would you then credit a player for a punt return TD? After all, "touchdowns are worth 6 points".

 

[Deflinkin]

Rules can't change mid season.

/end story

 

[theplayer11]

I want to thank you all for the feedback. It was extremely helpful. I went ahead and ruled that the results stand. The rule is simply that a fumble is -1 point. There is no distinction between fumbles that occur on special teams and fumbles that occur on an offensive play. That is the rule as it is and that is what we have to abide by. This is actually the first issue of this nature we have had in the six years this league has been in existence. It is a relatively drama free league.

you chose poorly.

He chose correctly.. I have found that more problems occur when commissioners try to interpret the rules of the website a different way. It leads to nothing but confusion and more ill will with the owners.CBS set up shows: Fumble Lost, Including ST plays. That is crystal clear..You have to follow the rules that are set up before the season starts. a

 

[VaTerp]

Right decision, you can't make changes mid-season. Sucks for the guy that lost but he can bring it up for a vote next offseason.

But I have never understood why leagues don't give players credit for return TDs. This is just another example of why that's a horrible rule IMO.

 

[jdelsas]

Right decision, you can't make changes mid-season. Sucks for the guy that lost but he can bring it up for a vote next offseason.

But I have never understood why leagues don't give players credit for return TDs. This is just another example of why that's a horrible rule IMO.

Not sure what site you play on but I play on ESPN and Yahoo, and both count return TDs for players on Special Teams (e.g. Decker, Ginn Jr., Sproles).

 

[habsfan]

I don't see this as a rule. It's a scoring setting.

Yes you have a commish to make decisions and resolve issues but this is not the sort of issue I would "fix" in mid season (it sounds like it's probably been like this for years). If you don't like the setting fine but in my book, timing trumps the relative "rightness or wrongness" on this one and the timing is wrong.

 

[twistd]

Right decision, you can't make changes mid-season. Sucks for the guy that lost but he can bring it up for a vote next offseason.

But I have never understood why leagues don't give players credit for return TDs. This is just another example of why that's a horrible rule IMO.

Not sure what site you play on but I play on ESPN and Yahoo, and both count return TDs for players on Special Teams (e.g. Decker, Ginn Jr., Sproles).

We use RTsports. You can set it up for individual players to get credit for Special Teams TDs, we just don't have it set up that way now. That may be a change to make after the season.

 

[twistd]

I want to thank you all for the feedback. It was extremely helpful. I went ahead and ruled that the results stand. The rule is simply that a fumble is -1 point. There is no distinction between fumbles that occur on special teams and fumbles that occur on an offensive play. That is the rule as it is and that is what we have to abide by. This is actually the first issue of this nature we have had in the six years this league has been in existence. It is a relatively drama free league.

you chose poorly.

He chose correctly.. I have found that more problems occur when commissioners try to interpret the rules of the website a different way. It leads to nothing but confusion and more ill will with the owners.CBS set up shows: Fumble Lost, Including ST plays. That is crystal clear..You have to follow the rules that are set up before the season starts. a

I think part of the problem for us is that there was no crystal clear rule put in place. It was simply that fumbles were -1. We didn't say fumbles were -1 except on Special Teams. I think you are absolutely right. Although it seems wrong that a player would be dinged for a fumble on Special Teams, that is how we have had it since the inception of the rule and it has never been questioned before. So until we make a rule change it has to remain as is.

 

[VaTerp]

Right decision, you can't make changes mid-season. Sucks for the guy that lost but he can bring it up for a vote next offseason.

But I have never understood why leagues don't give players credit for return TDs. This is just another example of why that's a horrible rule IMO.

Not sure what site you play on but I play on ESPN and Yahoo, and both count return TDs for players on Special Teams (e.g. Decker, Ginn Jr., Sproles).

Not sure what your point is.I play on both of those sites as well. Every league I've ever been in, or will be in, counts return TDs.

My point is that there are obviously leagues that don't count them and I don't see any reasonable argument for that position.

 

[habsfan]

I want to thank you all for the feedback. It was extremely helpful. I went ahead and ruled that the results stand. The rule is simply that a fumble is -1 point. There is no distinction between fumbles that occur on special teams and fumbles that occur on an offensive play. That is the rule as it is and that is what we have to abide by. This is actually the first issue of this nature we have had in the six years this league has been in existence. It is a relatively drama free league.

you chose poorly.

He chose correctly.. I have found that more problems occur when commissioners try to interpret the rules of the website a different way. It leads to nothing but confusion and more ill will with the owners.CBS set up shows: Fumble Lost, Including ST plays. That is crystal clear..You have to follow the rules that are set up before the season starts. a

I think part of the problem for us is that there was no crystal clear rule put in place. It was simply that fumbles were -1. We didn't say fumbles were -1 except on Special Teams. I think you are absolutely right. Although it seems wrong that a player would be dinged for a fumble on Special Teams, that is how we have had it since the inception of the rule and it has never been questioned before. So until we make a rule change it has to remain as is.

I'm having a hard time seeing the setting as "right" or "wrong". Suggesting the guy who actually fumbled the ball be penalized statistically is a completely indefensible position?

 

[atcdav]

This is how we score it on CBS. Someone above does the same

"FL - Fumble Lost, Including ST plays -1 point"

 

[Joe Summer]

But I have never understood why leagues don't give players credit for return TDs.

Some people are hung up on the concept that TWO players shouldn't get credit for the same play.Of course, these same people ignore the fact that QBs always get credit for receiving TDs.

 

[dslaw]

Good decision by commish but it should be looked at for a possible change next year. We had the same problem in my league years ago when we had no special teams scoring. Joey Galloway returned a punt for a TD (told you a long time ago). I had Galloway, no points. I had the team he scored against and the TD counted as points allowed. It seemed unfair and we changed it in the offseason to allow special teams scoring. Sucks to be that guy that lost but that is what the rules say.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

In one league where I am commissioner I have an issue I'd like some feedback on. We had one game that came down to Monday night. Team A was up by about 6 points. Team B had Greg Salas playing. Salas had a fumble on a muffed punt. Our scoring system deducts a point for a fumble. It does not differentiate between whether that fumble occurred on a special teams play or a regular offensive play. Team A won by .1 points. The fumble was the difference. Now players can't score individual points on special teams plays, but the way our scoring system works they can lose points for fumbles. Team B is protesting this and wants a league vote.

My feeling is that because the system is set up the way it is the results stand. I understand that it would seem unfair that a player can't score positive points on special teams plays but can be dinged for negative plays. However, with the limitations of the scoring set up I don't see any alternative. Thoughts?

You're feelings are correct. Last season I lost a point when Mike Thomas fumbled on a punt return, even though I can not get points for anything that occurs on a punt return (yards or TDs) for the individual player.

 

[AngryPatriot]

That's crazy, it's a special teams play and a fumble should not count against an individual player. end of story.

 

[cheese]

Whether a fumble should or shouldn't count against a person is irrellevant IMO. Your rules say fumbles are -1 with no qualifiers. He fumbled. The rest is just spin.

Thats hardly a system glitch.

 

[dhockster]

I want to thank you all for the feedback. It was extremely helpful. I went ahead and ruled that the results stand. The rule is simply that a fumble is -1 point. There is no distinction between fumbles that occur on special teams and fumbles that occur on an offensive play. That is the rule as it is and that is what we have to abide by.

This is actually the first issue of this nature we have had in the six years this league has been in existence. It is a relatively drama free league.

you chose poorly.

He chose correctly.. I have found that more problems occur when commissioners try to interpret the rules of the website a different way. It leads to nothing but confusion and more ill will with the owners.CBS set up shows: Fumble Lost, Including ST plays.

That is crystal clear..

You have to follow the rules that are set up before the season starts.

a

You, as commissioner are not following the rules of the website, you are following the rules that your league has approved.If the league has said that Special Team TD's count for 6 points for the Special Teams/Defensive team player you have, and not the individual punt returner, then logic would say that the fumble should be handled the same way. As others have said, you may have to adjust the results outside

of your league software if the software does not accomodate your scoring system.

A good league will have very few of these issues because they will have set everything up properly before the season. Sometimes though glitches happen and that is why you have a commissioner, to make common sense decisions regarding the glitches. Allowing for a player to be charged with a negative result when no positive result is possible does not seem like common sense.

The problems usually occur when most of the glitches are happening because of the commissioner, not despite the commissioner.