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Cosell Talks: Chargers Philip Rivers is NFL’s Toughest Pocket Passer (1 Viewer)

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Cosell Talks: Chargers Philip Rivers is NFL’s Toughest Pocket Passer

by Greg Cosell

I’ve written many times about the attributes it takes to play quarterback consistently well in the NFL. Not many possess those traits as completely as Philip Rivers.

Rivers certainly did not have his best season for the San Diego Chargers in 2011. But based on his previous five-year track record, I strongly believe he will rebound and have an outstanding year in 2012.

From a public perception standpoint, Rivers is a fascinating case study. He has started for six years and has never missed a game. He’s led the NFL in touchdown passes (2008) and passing yards (2010). He’s eclipsed 4,000 yards passing in each of the past four seasons. He’s won playoff games with some outstanding performances. No one would dispute that Rivers is an excellent quarterback, one of the six or seven best in the league, depending on personal preferences.

Yet, he’s never won an AFC championship — losing to the New England Patriots the only time he got there; of course, he was playing with a torn ACL — and therefore has never played in a Super Bowl.

Rivers forces one to return to the age-old question: How important are Super Bowl appearances (and victories) when evaluating quarterbacks?

Let’s put that in context, with recent history as our guide: Is Eli Manning a better quarterback than Rivers, simply because he’s won two Super Bowls? Is the ranking of quarterbacks solely a mathematical equation: The more Super Bowls you’ve played in (and won), the higher you should be ranked?

I would strongly argue that quarterback evaluation is a little more subtle — and nuanced — than that. It doesn’t take much thought to say that a quarterback is ultimately judged by wins, but that reduces a complex, detailed set of parameters to a single, overly simplistic measurement. It ignores the process, and the factors, by which results are achieved. When you do that, you lose all objective analysis. It’s always easy to make judgments when you have access to the outcome, but that misses the point entirely.

I have studied Rivers very closely in his six seasons as the Chargers’ starting quarterback. I have reached this conclusion: He is the toughest pocket passer in the NFL.

To understand how to evaluate NFL quarterback play, you must begin with a basic premise: The position is played, first and foremost, from the pocket. Many characteristics, each of which can be tangibly identified and quantified, are necessary to do just that.

One critical measure can be summarized as pocket toughness. There are a number of factors that define it. In the NFL, you have to be able to throw the ball effectively when the pass protection, for any number of reasons, is not sturdy and secure. It could be a stunt in which a looping defensive lineman is not blocked. It could be a blitz scheme in which a rusher is not accounted for and gets in clean. In either scenario, the quarterback must look down the gun barrel and release the ball knowing he is going to get hit. More often than not, it’s a situation in which the pocket gradually closes in, and the functional space to deliver the football is significantly reduced. The overriding point is you must throw the ball in the eye of the storm. It’s a compulsory attribute to play the position at a high level.

Rivers does this better than any quarterback in the league. He plays in a Norv Turner offense that puts a premium on intermediate and downfield throws. That features a higher percentage of five- and seven-step drops. The ball, by design, does not necessarily come out quickly. The ideal timing of a five-step drop is 2.1 seconds; a seven-step drop is 2.6 seconds. (By contrast, the ball should come out on a three-step drop in 1.5 seconds.) More time in the pocket means more time for the pass rush to diminish space and minimize that comfortable cradle. Rivers does not flinch in the face of pressure. Even when it’s present, he still steps into his throws and delivers the ball with accuracy and velocity. And he has been doing this since 2006, his first year as a starter.

Another aspect of Rivers’ play I have always appreciated is his inherent comprehension of the delicate balance between game management and risk taking. Many folks think the term “game manager” is a negative, i.e., a quarterback who must be managed and controlled because he’s not quite good enough to play aggressively without making the kinds of mistakes that lose games. That’s not the correct explanation of game manager. It’s better classified as a quarterback who understands game situations, and what those situations demand of his decisions.

It’s third-and-10 early in the fourth quarter, the Chargers lead by more than one score and a pass play is called to attempt to get the first down. There is no clearly defined throw. The coverage won. Rivers intuitively knows that situation does not call for a stick throw into a tight window. You check it down, you throw an incompletion, you take a sack if it’s the best — or only — option.

Conversely, if the Chargers were down by more than one score in that same scenario, Rivers would pull the trigger on a tough throw. That’s game management.

In 2011, Rivers threw 20 interceptions, far more than he had thrown in any previous season. Interceptions don’t tell you much as an abstract number. You have to look at each one individually to evaluate it properly. As is always the case, the reasons were plentiful, but there’s no question Rivers struggled at times with both his accuracy and his decision making. It was especially apparent in a difficult five-game stretch in the middle of the season when he threw 10 interceptions. Over the last six games, Rivers was sharper, both with his ball location and his coverage recognition. That final month and a half trended more toward his career tendencies. Remember, Rivers is an intermediate and downfield thrower. Given that, his low career interception percentage (2.6) is remarkable.

Rivers has always been an excellent deep-ball thrower. That’s an attribute rarely talked about in today’s NFL, with the league-wide focus on the quick passing game. In addition, Rivers is a very good progression reader. He has a great understanding of the myriad concepts that define his offense, and the multiple defensive fronts and coverages that he sees each week. It’s what I refer to as instant recall and application. His ability to transfer classroom to field is as good as any quarterback in the NFL.

The word “elite” is often tossed around. Different people ascribe different meanings to it. We can debate whether it applies to Rivers. What I know is this: Rivers is an outstanding quarterback, by any measure. If it takes a Super Bowl win for some to see him that way, so be it. But a ring would not change what kind of player he is.
 
:lmao:

That big wimp wilts under pressure.

His worm rapers 2 yards in front of his feet, to avoid any pressure, are Epic.

 
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God...I've never trusted Cosell and this just says more. I could name plenty of QBs that are tougher than him in the pocket. Off the top of my head...Roethlisberger is a rock. Eli gets out of the most ridiculous situations in the pocket all the time to make great plays and Matty Ice doesn't get phased in the pocket. Rivers freaks out, ####s up, then cries and blames his offensive line.

 
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Not much of a surprise to those of us who have watched ever snap he's taken as a Pro. He's the son of a high school coach, had the aptitude to start as a freshman in the ACC, and has the 3rd highest career ANYPA of any QB in history.

Probably the most underrated and misunderstood athlete in pro sports.

 
Not much of a surprise to those of us who have watched ever snap he's taken as a Pro. He's the son of a high school coach, had the aptitude to start as a freshman in the ACC, and has the 3rd highest career ANYPA of any QB in history. Probably the most underrated and misunderstood athlete in pro sports.
Terrific thrower. Absolute money when he can deliver in step and on time, to any part of the field. :thumbup: Tough in the pocket? :tfp:
 
I love Rivers. I think he's a dynasty steal right now. Going into last season, a tough year for him, he was rated higher than Stafford by a good margin. What a difference a year makes. Now he's closer to 10 than 1. He plays through pain and consistently puts up stats. Not sure what people don't like about him. Are we seriously going to discount him because he's a bit goofy? I'm certainly not as I try not to let emotions rule me. Character is one thing, but Rivers has great character. I am actually targetting Rivers and Cutler in an upcoming Superflex dynasty auction because I think they are both going to be Top 5 and Top 10 respectively.

 
God...I've never trusted Cosell and this just says more. I could name plenty of QBs that are tougher than him in the pocket. Off the top of my head...Roethlisberger is a rock. Eli gets out of the most ridiculous situations in the pocket all the time to make great plays and Matty Ice doesn't get phased in the pocket. Rivers freaks out, ####s up, then cries and blames his offensive line.
Matty Ice can't hold Rivers' jock. He's way overrated.
 
God...I've never trusted Cosell and this just says more. I could name plenty of QBs that are tougher than him in the pocket. Off the top of my head...Roethlisberger is a rock. Eli gets out of the most ridiculous situations in the pocket all the time to make great plays and Matty Ice doesn't get phased in the pocket. Rivers freaks out, ####s up, then cries and blames his offensive line.
Matty Ice can't hold Rivers' jock. He's way overrated.
You're an idiot, did you even read the original post? We're not rating QB skills here, we're talking about how tough QBs are in the pocket. Did I ever say Ryan is a better QB than Rivers? No.
 
I really like Cosell, but I do think he's more of an old school guy that believes the QB position just never changes and will never change. He consistently puts too much emphasis on strong arms and pocket passers.

 
God...I've never trusted Cosell and this just says more. I could name plenty of QBs that are tougher than him in the pocket. Off the top of my head...Roethlisberger is a rock. Eli gets out of the most ridiculous situations in the pocket all the time to make great plays and Matty Ice doesn't get phased in the pocket. Rivers freaks out, ####s up, then cries and blames his offensive line.
Matty Ice can't hold Rivers' jock. He's way overrated.
You're an idiot, did you even read the original post? We're not rating QB skills here, we're talking about how tough QBs are in the pocket. Did I ever say Ryan is a better QB than Rivers? No.
Ok so Matty Ice doesn't get phased in the pocket. He's just the same old overrated player. Got it.
 
I really like Cosell, but I do think he's more of an old school guy that believes the QB position just never changes and will never change. He consistently puts too much emphasis on strong arms and pocket passers.
While I agree with your assessment on Cosell, I have to say, until a Vick or Newton-type actually wins something, I go with the pocket guy. We've seen a couple of weaker armed QBs win in the past 10-15 years (Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer), but the exciting guys who run around like a chicken with their head cut-off, have won squat.
 
I really like Cosell, but I do think he's more of an old school guy that believes the QB position just never changes and will never change. He consistently puts too much emphasis on strong arms and pocket passers.
While I agree with your assessment on Cosell, I have to say, until a Vick or Newton-type actually wins something, I go with the pocket guy. We've seen a couple of weaker armed QBs win in the past 10-15 years (Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer), but the exciting guys who run around like a chicken with their head cut-off, have won squat.
steve young and aaron rodgers were excellent running qbs. :shrug:
 
I really like Cosell, but I do think he's more of an old school guy that believes the QB position just never changes and will never change. He consistently puts too much emphasis on strong arms and pocket passers.
While I agree with your assessment on Cosell, I have to say, until a Vick or Newton-type actually wins something, I go with the pocket guy. We've seen a couple of weaker armed QBs win in the past 10-15 years (Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer), but the exciting guys who run around like a chicken with their head cut-off, have won squat.
steve young and aaron rodgers were excellent running qbs. :shrug:
Jeff Garcia too. And McNabb made it to the Super Bowl. And let's not put it all on the QB. The Panthers record last year was more due to the injuries and lack of defense than Newton's performance.
 
I really like Cosell, but I do think he's more of an old school guy that believes the QB position just never changes and will never change. He consistently puts too much emphasis on strong arms and pocket passers.
While I agree with your assessment on Cosell, I have to say, until a Vick or Newton-type actually wins something, I go with the pocket guy. We've seen a couple of weaker armed QBs win in the past 10-15 years (Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer), but the exciting guys who run around like a chicken with their head cut-off, have won squat.
steve young and aaron rodgers were excellent running qbs. :shrug:
Jeff Garcia too. And McNabb made it to the Super Bowl. And let's not put it all on the QB. The Panthers record last year was more due to the injuries and lack of defense than Newton's performance.
His point stands though. You need to have pocket presence to excel. And way more pocket QBs have won the big one than scramblers or runners. There are always exceptions.
 
I really like Cosell, but I do think he's more of an old school guy that believes the QB position just never changes and will never change. He consistently puts too much emphasis on strong arms and pocket passers.
While I agree with your assessment on Cosell, I have to say, until a Vick or Newton-type actually wins something, I go with the pocket guy. We've seen a couple of weaker armed QBs win in the past 10-15 years (Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer), but the exciting guys who run around like a chicken with their head cut-off, have won squat.
That's like saying "Black coaches can get winning records, but until I see one win a Super Bowl, they haven't won squat."Something like 90% of the quarterbacks are "pocket" passers by your definition, so obviously they're going to make up the overwhelming majority of Super Bowl teams. Vick and Newton are certainly capable of winning a Super Bowl, just like any number of elite quarterbacks. Tom Brady hasn't won a Super Bowl since 2004, but I don't think that means he's incapable of doing so.
 
Yeah, Gronkowski and Graham are great, but what have they won? I don't think having an elite TE is all that important, considering that none of them, or Tony Gonzalez or Kellen Winslow or Ozzie Newsome or Antonio Gates has ever won a Super Bowl. Way more teams have won a SB with a Jake Ballard type than a Jimmy Graham type.

 
Obviously, I've got homer-glasses on, but I don't understand how you could possibly call Rivers a "tougher pocket passer" than Roethlisberger. I've seen Roethlisberger play with a dramatic limp or a broken thumb or god knows what else more times than I can count. Rivers would check out the instant he suffered such abuse (which won't happen, because he'll chuck the ball away as soon as he can).

 
Obviously, I've got homer-glasses on, but I don't understand how you could possibly call Rivers a "tougher pocket passer" than Roethlisberger. I've seen Roethlisberger play with a dramatic limp or a broken thumb or god knows what else more times than I can count. Rivers would check out the instant he suffered such abuse (which won't happen, because he'll chuck the ball away as soon as he can).
He played the 2007 afc title game when he tore the acl the week before in Indy. Spare me.
 
I like Rivers. Last year was frustrating. The Chargers team can be frustrating if you're wanting them to win in the playoffs. My perception is that Rivers is mentally tough and competitive. I know he rubs some folks the wrong way but I think you want that kind of attitude and mentality in a player/leader of a football team. I also think Big Ben is pretty good at escaping pressure and I've seen some highlights of Eli escaping some sacks to make good plays "the Tyree catch" in the superbowl etc. I think that might fall under then "leaving the pocket" category to extend play. I'm not sure that's what the article is really talking about. I think it's just discussing when the QB is in the pocket.

Rivers isn't a fast runner and not known as a great scrambler. This could mean he has to hang in the pocket a little longer to deliver a pass when there is coverage combining that with his 5-7 step drops he probably takes more hits than some others. I think that's what cosell is referring to.

He thinks Rivers excels in that particular area of football.

 
Obviously, I've got homer-glasses on, but I don't understand how you could possibly call Rivers a "tougher pocket passer" than Roethlisberger. I've seen Roethlisberger play with a dramatic limp or a broken thumb or god knows what else more times than I can count. Rivers would check out the instant he suffered such abuse (which won't happen, because he'll chuck the ball away as soon as he can).
Besides the 'playing on torn acl' that others have mentioned, he's never missed a start due to injury in his career, college or pros. Not sure what more you can ask for in the 'toughness' department51 straight starts in college (set a record at the time)103 straight starts (96 regular season, 7 post season) in the nfl
Rivers freaks out, ####s up, then cries and blames his offensive line.
When did Rivers blame his offensive line?hint: he never did
 
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I really like Cosell, but I do think he's more of an old school guy that believes the QB position just never changes and will never change. He consistently puts too much emphasis on strong arms and pocket passers.
While I agree with your assessment on Cosell, I have to say, until a Vick or Newton-type actually wins something, I go with the pocket guy. We've seen a couple of weaker armed QBs win in the past 10-15 years (Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer), but the exciting guys who run around like a chicken with their head cut-off, have won squat.
Trent Dilfer had a strong arm. Better examples might be Joe Montana and Tom Brady (although I think Brady's arm strength has improved since coming into the league).
 
Obviously, I've got homer-glasses on, but I don't understand how you could possibly call Rivers a "tougher pocket passer" than Roethlisberger. I've seen Roethlisberger play with a dramatic limp or a broken thumb or god knows what else more times than I can count. Rivers would check out the instant he suffered such abuse (which won't happen, because he'll chuck the ball away as soon as he can).
Besides the 'playing on torn acl' that others have mentioned, he's never missed a start due to injury in his career, college or pros. Not sure what more you can ask for in the 'toughness' department51 straight starts in college (set a record at the time)103 straight starts (96 regular season, 7 post season) in the nfl
Rivers freaks out, ####s up, then cries and blames his offensive line.
When did Rivers blame his offensive line?hint: he never did
:goodposting: I have never once heard of Rivers throwing anyone under the bus, EVER. Heck, after almost every fan wanted Norvs head at the end of the season, Rivers went ON THE RECORD saying that he wanted him back and that it would be a mistake to let him go. The guy is a true professional, a class act off the field, and a great football player. It's funny how fans talk so much crap about Rivers' attitude on the field, yet you never hear about any football player that plays against Rivers talking badly about him.(Maybe Cutler) It's because he is well respected around the league for what he is. A fiery competitor that is a huge fan of the game.
Rivers does run his mouth non-stop on the field, likes he's playing basketball in white men cant jump. But he has never thrown his team or coaches under the bus.
 
Rivers is underrated. The guy was clearly nursing some sort of arm injury for a good part of last season. Only towards the end did he start to look right. He's going to be a late round steal this season as a result. Rivers combined with either meachem or brown as WR3 will win championships this year.

 
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