Cribbs v. Hester (1 Viewer)

[pmcdade]

Cribbs is statistically the better return man. Cribbs is actually significantly better at returning kickoffs then Hester, Hester is better at punt returns. Hester had significantly more returns for TD's due to punt returns, but when you look generally Cribbs had an amazing year and beat out Hester overall.

General:

Cribbs led the entire NFL in all-purpose yards last season with 2312 yards. Hester was not in the top-ten. (Less than 1886).

Cribbs led the entire NFL in yards per touch last season with 22.2 ypt. Hester was tied for second with Ted Ginn at 16.7 ypt.

Kickoffs:

Cribbs led the entire NFL in kick-off return yards last year with 1809. Hester was not in the top ten. (Less than 1138).

Cribbs led the entire NFL in yards per kick-off return with 30.7. Hester was not in the top 10. (Less than 25.8)

Cribbs was tied for fifth for the longest kick-off return with 100. Hester was 10th with 97.

Cribbs and Hester each returned 2 kick-offs for touchdowns, tied for 3rd place.

Punts:

Hester was second in total punt return yards with 651. Cribbs was fourth with 405.

Hester was fourth in the NFL with long punt return with an 89 yard return. Cribbs was 8th with a 76 yard return.

Hester was second in yards per punt return with 15.5. Cribbs was fourth with 13.5.

Hester lead the NFL in punt returns for touchdowns with 4. Cribbs tied many others for second place with one.

Combined:

Cribbs was first in the NFL with total kick and punt return yards with 2214. Hester was fourth in the NFL with 1585.

In short: Cribbs led the entire NFL in 5 categories involving kick and/or punt returns. Hester led the NFL in one (albeit a very important one) punt returns for TDs.

Overall Cribbs is a better return man being significantly better than Hester at Kickoffs and Hester being better at punts. It should also be noted that 2007 was the first year that Cribbs returned punts. Say what you want about holding out with 5 years left on a contract, but Cribbs is THE MAN when it comes to returning kicks.

 

[Rounders]

Hester's effect is not felt in statistics. Think of how many times teams kick away from Hester. That will have a huge effect on his stats.

 

[whitem0nkey]

I think most will take Hester over Cribbs in football.

they are not talking about a possible cribbs rule but they are talking about a Hester rule. and that speaks volumes.

 

[baconisgood]

Cribbs does it on the other end as well, last year he had 20 tackles on special teams (17 solo).

Hester's effect is not felt in statistics. Think of how many times teams kick away from Hester. That will have a huge effect on his stats.

This should be easy to explore if you can find the average gross punt yards against chicago V league average.

 

[sholditch]

Hester's effect is not felt in statistics. Think of how many times teams kick away from Hester. That will have a huge effect on his stats.

That didn't take long. Get back to us when teams willingly give it to the Browns on the 45 rather than kick to Cribbs./thread

 

[zed2283]

Return averages are much more important than total yards. Total yards are influenced by too many other factors.

 

[pmcdade]

Hester's effect is not felt in statistics. Think of how many times teams kick away from Hester. That will have a huge effect on his stats.

Here is the actual information on punts:Bears were punted to 94 times.Bears actually returned 44 punts.47% return rate.Browns were punted to 69 timesBrowns returned 30 punts.43% return rate.That means that the Bears had more "returnable" punts - not out of bounds or fair caught. It would appear that teams "kicked away" from Cribbs more than Hester.

 

[pmcdade]

Return averages are much more important than total yards. Total yards are influenced by too many other factors.

I agree. That's why I included the averages above. Cribbs led the entire NFL in yards per kick-off return with 30.7. Hester was not in the top 10. (Less than 25.8)Hester was second in yards per punt return with 15.5. Cribbs was fourth with 13.5.This is actually where Cribbs blows Hester away in Kickoffs, while Hester is only marginally better than Cribbs in punts.

 

[sholditch]

Hester's effect is not felt in statistics. Think of how many times teams kick away from Hester. That will have a huge effect on his stats.

Here is the actual information on punts:Bears were punted to 94 times.Bears actually returned 44 punts.47% return rate.Browns were punted to 69 timesBrowns returned 30 punts.43% return rate.That means that the Bears had more "returnable" punts - not out of bounds or fair caught. It would appear that teams "kicked away" from Cribbs more than Hester.

How many times did teams purposely kick it out of bounds on kickoffs to avoid kicking to Cribbs?

 

[pmcdade]

Hester's effect is not felt in statistics. Think of how many times teams kick away from Hester. That will have a huge effect on his stats.

Here is the actual information on punts:Bears were punted to 94 times.Bears actually returned 44 punts.47% return rate.Browns were punted to 69 timesBrowns returned 30 punts.43% return rate.That means that the Bears had more "returnable" punts - not out of bounds or fair caught. It would appear that teams "kicked away" from Cribbs more than Hester.

How many times did teams purposely kick it out of bounds on kickoffs to avoid kicking to Cribbs?

Kicks out of bounds are not specifically tracked. We can only see returned punts and non-returned punts, which is why I used the above numbers.

 

[Moniker]

Hester's effect is not felt in statistics. Think of how many times teams kick away from Hester. That will have a huge effect on his stats.

That didn't take long. Get back to us when teams willingly give it to the Browns on the 45 rather than kick to Cribbs./thread

lol, who would you rather give it to on the 45, the Browns' offense or the Bear's? The sad state of the Bear's offense is why opposing teams give it to them on the 45.

 

[sholditch]

Hester's effect is not felt in statistics. Think of how many times teams kick away from Hester. That will have a huge effect on his stats.

Here is the actual information on punts:Bears were punted to 94 times.Bears actually returned 44 punts.47% return rate.Browns were punted to 69 timesBrowns returned 30 punts.43% return rate.That means that the Bears had more "returnable" punts - not out of bounds or fair caught. It would appear that teams "kicked away" from Cribbs more than Hester.

How many times did teams purposely kick it out of bounds on kickoffs to avoid kicking to Cribbs?

Kicks out of bounds are not specifically tracked. We can only see returned punts and non-returned punts, which is why I used the above numbers.

convenient. Well, I watched every Bears game last year and can say with total confidence I saw teams do that because of Hester a minimum of 8 times. It's probably a lot higher but I am sure it's no lower than 8. What's your minimum for the Browns/Cribbs?

 

[sholditch]

Hester's effect is not felt in statistics. Think of how many times teams kick away from Hester. That will have a huge effect on his stats.

That didn't take long. Get back to us when teams willingly give it to the Browns on the 45 rather than kick to Cribbs./thread

lol, who would you rather give it to on the 45, the Browns' offense or the Bear's? The sad state of the Bear's offense is why opposing teams give it to them on the 45.

I'd bet money you don't beleive this yourself. No team gives any opposing team the ball on the 45 unless they feel that they have to. As bad as the Bears were, you don't give any team that field position, especially with a kicker as good as Robbie Gould. Ask any coach.

 

[DrJ]

Hester's effect is not felt in statistics. Think of how many times teams kick away from Hester. That will have a huge effect on his stats.

Here is the actual information on punts:Bears were punted to 94 times.Bears actually returned 44 punts.47% return rate.Browns were punted to 69 timesBrowns returned 30 punts.43% return rate.That means that the Bears had more "returnable" punts - not out of bounds or fair caught. It would appear that teams "kicked away" from Cribbs more than Hester.

Or it would appear that Cribbs is content to fair catch the ball if there isn't enough space where Hester is more willing to try to do something every time he gets his hands on the ball and rarely signals for fair catch. Which would of course make the degree of difficulty of his average greater than the degree of difficulty of Cribbs.

 

[sholditch]

Until you can account for kickoffs kicked out of bounds on purpose statistically, there's no statistical argument to make. Any one you do will be flawed. So until then, we'll just have to go off the universal opinion of every coach and player in the NFL that Hester is the best return man in the NFL. Sorry.

 

[pmcdade]

Until you can account for kickoffs kicked out of bounds on purpose statistically, there's no statistical argument to make. Any one you do will be flawed. So until then, we'll just have to go off the universal opinion of every coach and player in the NFL that Hester is the best return man in the NFL. Sorry.

Umm... how about kickoff return average? Hester isn't even in the top 10. If you were talking about punt returns you would have an arguement. Even if 1/2 of all kickoffs were out-of-bounds, he should still have a good AVERAGE. Your logic is the flawed logic my friend.Hester is the best punt return man in the league. Cribbs is the best kickoff return man. Cribbs is better at punts than Hester is at kickoffs. That's just the way it is statistically. I'm sure Madden's/ESPN's drooling and Chicago being a major-market team have a lot do to with public opinion... but when you look at the numbers, it isn't even really that close. A good point was made by pnewtonjr when he said: "lol, who would you rather give it to on the 45, the Browns' offense or the Bear's? The sad state of the Bear's offense is why opposing teams give it to them on the 45." That might have something to do with it your fan-boy quasi-related non-statistic of your memory of kick-off's out of bounds.

 

[Alex96]

Cribbs is a great return man, no doubt. And he's maybe there's something to be said about Cribbs being better at returning KO's than Hester. But, trying to determine who is the best return man requires more than just stats. Especially, when stats such as yards / return are skewed to favor someone with fewer TD's which obviously limit the number of yards that can be gained on a particular kick. Another way to say that is, if the NFL played on a 200 yard field, Cribbs wouldn't even be in the same zip code as Hester.

They're both great at what they do. Let's just leave it at that.

 

[MAC_32]

With Hester signing his big deal Cribbs is now complaining about his, looks like the data provided here gives Cribbs a pretty good case...

 

[sholditch]

Until you can account for kickoffs kicked out of bounds on purpose statistically, there's no statistical argument to make. Any one you do will be flawed. So until then, we'll just have to go off the universal opinion of every coach and player in the NFL that Hester is the best return man in the NFL. Sorry.

Umm... how about kickoff return average? Hester isn't even in the top 10. If you were talking about punt returns you would have an arguement. Even if 1/2 of all kickoffs were out-of-bounds, he should still have a good AVERAGE. Your logic is the flawed logic my friend.Hester is the best punt return man in the league. Cribbs is the best kickoff return man. Cribbs is better at punts than Hester is at kickoffs. That's just the way it is statistically. I'm sure Madden's/ESPN's drooling and Chicago being a major-market team have a lot do to with public opinion... but when you look at the numbers, it isn't even really that close.

A good point was made by pnewtonjr when he said: "lol, who would you rather give it to on the 45, the Browns' offense or the Bear's? The sad state of the Bear's offense is why opposing teams give it to them on the 45." That might have something to do with it your fan-boy quasi-related non-statistic of your memory of kick-off's out of bounds.

No, your reading comprehension is flawed. Re-read my post. It's pretty simple and I don't know how I can put it any more plainly. Until that's accounted for, any statistical argument is flawed. It's like not giving a slugger any credit for intentional walks. I have pointed this out numerous times in this thread and you have continued to ignore it. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away. You can make any BS argument you want based on incomplete stats but in the end it doesn't mean anything in real life. Again, when you address this and want to have this argument, let me know.Also, if you read my response to his post you would know how invalid I (and anyone with any real football knowledge) consider that argument.

 

[treat88]

The difference is Hester set a record for returns for TD's and became a household name because of that.

Regardless of what evidence is presented, some will not recognize that Cribbs is as much of a difference maker as Hester, if not more so, due to this one simple fact.

 

[gianmarco]

Surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet, but Chase already posted something on this very topic with some in-depth analysis. I'll find the link.

 

[gianmarco]

Chase's article on return games

 

[sholditch]

This article also does not address the issue of teams purposefully kicking it out of bounds. Why is everyone ignoring this? Maybe because if you don't ignore it all these stats are totally meaningless?

 

[Moniker]

Hester's effect is not felt in statistics. Think of how many times teams kick away from Hester. That will have a huge effect on his stats.

That didn't take long. Get back to us when teams willingly give it to the Browns on the 45 rather than kick to Cribbs./thread

lol, who would you rather give it to on the 45, the Browns' offense or the Bear's? The sad state of the Bear's offense is why opposing teams give it to them on the 45.

I'd bet money you don't beleive this yourself. No team gives any opposing team the ball on the 45 unless they feel that they have to. As bad as the Bears were, you don't give any team that field position, especially with a kicker as good as Robbie Gould. Ask any coach.

You would lose that bet. Given a choice between kicking to Cribbs or giving it to the Browns' offense on the 45, I'll take my chances with Cribbs. Given the choice between kicking it to Hester or giving it to the sad Bear's offense on the 45, I'll take my chances with the Bear's offense.Cribbs and Hester are equally great return men. Hester just happens to be the greater of two evils when compared to giving it to their offense. Switch their teams around and I'd be willing to bet that the Browns' offense still doesn't start at the 45 for free and the Bear's offense still will with Cribbs as their return man.

 

[pmcdade]

This article also does not address the issue of teams purposefully kicking it out of bounds. Why is everyone ignoring this? Maybe because if you don't ignore it all these stats are totally meaningless?

No... we are ignoring it because it only means something if its correlated with a statistic that gives it validity. It has no affect on yards per kickoff return. It does have an affect on total kickoff yardage.To use your earlier slugging percentage v. intentional walks analogy: Slugging Percentage has nothing to do with intentional walks. Slugging percentage is what percentage of hits go for home-runs. You could be walked 5 times or 50 times. It won't affect your slugging percentage at all. It will affect your total number of home-runs. So if you compare slugging percentages of two great hitters, it doesn't matter how many intentional walks either one of them had. If you want to compare total number of home-runs it does matter. The batter had less opportunity to have home runs because he was intentionally walked.So if you want to say that Hester had less total kickoff yards then he could have because he had 8 less attempts to return kicks due to kicks going out-of-bounds. Fine. That is a valid arguement.If you are saying that Hester's yards per kickoff return statistic is affected by the number of kicks out of bounds, then you are simply wrong and have no idea how statistics work.Now your ranting and raving are misplaced for two main reasons: 1) The whole purpose of this thread was a statistical analysis and you are ignoring the statistics. 2) Hester is the best punt returner in the game, but he's not nearly as effective at returning kick-offs. This is obvious by the fact that he isn't even in the top 10 in kick-off return average - a statistic that by definition has NOTHING TO DO WITH KICKS OUT OF BOUNDS. Your entire premise is that the only stat that matters as to how good a return man you are is a non-tracked statistic of how many times opposing teams kick-off out of bounds. That is simply idiotic. That's like saying "I have the best defense ever because of the number of teams that intentionally take safeties against my defense." Intentionally kicking out of bounds does show respect for the return man, and at the same time shows great disdain for the offense. It also has a great deal with the score at the time. Why kick to a threat to score a TD when you know the offense can't move the ball well and you're up by 2-3 scores? If the Bear's offense was scoring like the Browns' (or Colts, or Cowboy's, or Patriots) offense then there likely would have been many fewer kick-offs out of bounds. However, the fact that Hester was a big enough threat to go to the house COMBINED with the fact that the offense was sub-par lead coaches to choose to kick out of bounds to avoid a threat of a big-play return when the difference of being on the 20 or 45 yard line didn't mean much against the Bear's sub-par offense. Is it impressive for Hester that teams kicked it out of bounds? Yes. It shows that he was a threat. Does it have any affect what-so-ever on his yards per kick-off return statistic. No.If you can't see this, then you're way too much of a fanboy to have your opinion matter to me in the least. Therefore I am done responding to you. Have a nice day.

 

[wadegarrett]

1. Teams receive the ball on the 40-yard line (not the 45) after a kickoff out of bounds.

2. Teams did kick balls out of bounds to Cribbs last year, just not as frequently as Hester.

3. They're both great return guys so you can stop pumping each other with meaningless banter.

 

[baconisgood]

To use your earlier slugging percentage v. intentional walks analogy: Slugging Percentage has nothing to do with intentional walks. Slugging percentage is what percentage of hits go for home-runs. You could be walked 5 times or 50 times. It won't affect your slugging percentage at all. It will affect your total number of home-runs. So if you compare slugging percentages of two great hitters, it doesn't matter how many intentional walks either one of them had. If you want to compare total number of home-runs it does matter. The batter had less opportunity to have home runs because he was intentionally walked.

This is not necessarily true as intentional walks (and kicking out of bounds) can't be assumed to be done randomly. The worst coverage teams are more likely to kick out of bounds than the best which could lead to a depression in return yards as the average ST unit they face on actual returns would be better. I doubt this would be a huge difference maker with just 8 K/Os going out of bounds, but it could potentially be one.

 

[beto]

I recently joined a league that has a KR position (it can be punts or kickoffs)

1. Is there FBG content that ranks kick returners?

2. Who are your top 5 kick returners after Cribbs and Hester?

 

[Moniker]

I recently joined a league that has a KR position (it can be punts or kickoffs)1. Is there FBG content that ranks kick returners?2. Who are your top 5 kick returners after Cribbs and Hester?

Generally speaking, your best shot is a guy who does both (more chances for TDs). What is the scoring system for the KR position in the league that you are in?

 

[sholditch]

This article also does not address the issue of teams purposefully kicking it out of bounds. Why is everyone ignoring this? Maybe because if you don't ignore it all these stats are totally meaningless?

No... we are ignoring it because it only means something if its correlated with a statistic that gives it validity. It has no affect on yards per kickoff return. It does have an affect on total kickoff yardage.To use your earlier slugging percentage v. intentional walks analogy: Slugging Percentage has nothing to do with intentional walks. Slugging percentage is what percentage of hits go for home-runs. You could be walked 5 times or 50 times. It won't affect your slugging percentage at all. It will affect your total number of home-runs. So if you compare slugging percentages of two great hitters, it doesn't matter how many intentional walks either one of them had. If you want to compare total number of home-runs it does matter. The batter had less opportunity to have home runs because he was intentionally walked.

So if you want to say that Hester had less total kickoff yards then he could have because he had 8 less attempts to return kicks due to kicks going out-of-bounds. Fine. That is a valid arguement.

If you are saying that Hester's yards per kickoff return statistic is affected by the number of kicks out of bounds, then you are simply wrong and have no idea how statistics work.

Now your ranting and raving are misplaced for two main reasons: 1) The whole purpose of this thread was a statistical analysis and you are ignoring the statistics. 2) Hester is the best punt returner in the game, but he's not nearly as effective at returning kick-offs. This is obvious by the fact that he isn't even in the top 10 in kick-off return average - a statistic that by definition has NOTHING TO DO WITH KICKS OUT OF BOUNDS.

Your entire premise is that the only stat that matters as to how good a return man you are is a non-tracked statistic of how many times opposing teams kick-off out of bounds. That is simply idiotic. That's like saying "I have the best defense ever because of the number of teams that intentionally take safeties against my defense." Intentionally kicking out of bounds does show respect for the return man, and at the same time shows great disdain for the offense. It also has a great deal with the score at the time. Why kick to a threat to score a TD when you know the offense can't move the ball well and you're up by 2-3 scores? If the Bear's offense was scoring like the Browns' (or Colts, or Cowboy's, or Patriots) offense then there likely would have been many fewer kick-offs out of bounds. However, the fact that Hester was a big enough threat to go to the house COMBINED with the fact that the offense was sub-par lead coaches to choose to kick out of bounds to avoid a threat of a big-play return when the difference of being on the 20 or 45 yard line didn't mean much against the Bear's sub-par offense.

Is it impressive for Hester that teams kicked it out of bounds? Yes. It shows that he was a threat. Does it have any affect what-so-ever on his yards per kick-off return statistic. No.

If you can't see this, then you're way too much of a fanboy to have your opinion matter to me in the least. Therefore I am done responding to you. Have a nice day.

It means that he has less opportunity to break long runs than Cribbs. If you don't see how this could affect yards per return then I don't see the point of trying to show it to you. But I will anyway:You're kicked to once and you return it for 20 yards = 20 yd avg

vs

You're kicked to 10 times and the returns are:

10

10

10

10

10

10

10

10

50

90 = 220 = 22 yd avg

Therefore the guy who returned 8 of 10 for 10 yards but broke two has a better avg. Just showing you how stats can work.

I never said slugging %, I said not giving credit. You came up with slugging % on your own, as you did the other bolded part about me only considering that one stat.

Perhaps I misunderstood the point of this post. I thought it was to show that Cribbs is a better overall return man than Hester in real life, as in more NFL teams would want Cribbs than Hester given equal contracts in a 2-man draft. If the point is to show that you can use stats to provide an argument that Cribbs is better, then there is no argument. I can use stats to show that Norwood was a better runner than LT last year. It doesn't make it true. I hope one day people on this board get educated about the way that stats can be used.

Well?

 

[ZWK]

Pro Football Prospectus 2008 has an article on kicking away from Hester. Excluding onside kicks, 9 of the 75 kickoffs to the Bears went out of bounds (league average is just 2%), and another 25 didn't make it to the Bears 20-yard line. The average kickoff to Chicago went 54.3 yards; the team with the second-shortest average kickoff distance was the Jets at 60.5 yards. That's over a six yard advantage, on average, from teams avoiding Hester. All those short kicks and squibs give the Bears better field position while hurting Hester's (and Rashied Davis's) yards per return.

PFP still says that Cribbs was more valuable than Hester as a kickoff returner, even after taking all of that into account - he was just that good. But Hester was more valuable than Cribbs as a punt returner.

 

[sholditch]

In fantasy, since both are really good, Cribbs is obviously more valuable, as he gets more opportunities than Hester on kickoffs, which are traditionally bigger point-getters than punts. I have no qualms with that. But saying he's better in real life to me shows someone who knows more about fantasy football than real football.

 

[Irish]

1. Teams receive the ball on the 40-yard line (not the 45) after a kickoff out of bounds.2. Teams did kick balls out of bounds to Cribbs last year, just not as frequently as Hester.3. They're both great return guys so you can stop pumping each other with meaningless banter.

Plus Cribbs is a special team ace when the Browns are kicking.

 

[baconisgood]

IIRC this

PFP still says that Cribbs was more valuable than Hester as a kickoff returner, even after taking all of that into account - he was just that good

Has a lot to do with Hester's fumbling.

 

[sholditch]

Dude does drop a lot of balls.

 

[amnesiac]

i love it when Cribbs solo tackles the opposing team's kick returner.

 

[cacksman]

Cribbs=Hester

 

[baconisgood]

Perhaps I misunderstood the point of this post. I thought it was to show that Cribbs is a better overall return man than Hester in real life, as in more NFL teams would want Cribbs than Hester given equal contracts in a 2-man draft.

When you take into account Hester's fumbling and Cribbs play as a gunner on special teams as well Cribbs > Hester as an NFL player

 

[treat88]

Perhaps I misunderstood the point of this post. I thought it was to show that Cribbs is a better overall return man than Hester in real life, as in more NFL teams would want Cribbs than Hester given equal contracts in a 2-man draft.

When you take into account Hester's fumbling and Cribbs play as a gunner on special teams as well Cribbs > Hester as an NFL player

Agreed.

 

[sholditch]

Yeah best to consider that and throw out the fact that Hester broke all kinds of records. Being able to tackle on special teams is much more of a reliable indicator of overall worth.

NFL records

League

* Most touchdowns returns in a season - (6) (2006, 2007)

* Most touchdowns kick and punt returns in a season - (6) (2007)

* Most touchdown returns as a rookie (6) - (2006)

* Most touchdown returns in one game (2)** - Against St. Louis on December 11, 2006 and Denver Broncos on November 25, 2007

Do you guys sit around and see what kinda stuff you can talk yourselves into?

 

[treat88]

Yeah best to consider that and throw out the fact that Hester broke all kinds of records. Being able to tackle on special teams is much more of a reliable indicator of overall worth.NFL recordsLeague * Most touchdowns returns in a season - (6) (2006, 2007) * Most touchdowns kick and punt returns in a season - (6) (2007) * Most touchdown returns as a rookie (6) - (2006) * Most touchdown returns in one game (2)** - Against St. Louis on December 11, 2006 and Denver Broncos on November 25, 2007Do you guys sit around and see what kinda stuff you can talk yourselves into?

See post #20

 

[sholditch]

Yeah best to consider that and throw out the fact that Hester broke all kinds of records. Being able to tackle on special teams is much more of a reliable indicator of overall worth.

NFL records

League

* Most touchdowns returns in a season - (6) (2006, 2007)

* Most touchdowns kick and punt returns in a season - (6) (2007)

* Most touchdown returns as a rookie (6) - (2006)

* Most touchdown returns in one game (2)** - Against St. Louis on December 11, 2006 and Denver Broncos on November 25, 2007

Do you guys sit around and see what kinda stuff you can talk yourselves into?

See post #20

read it and think that the NFL tracks records for a reason If Cribbs is so much better, what has prevented him from breaking Hester's records, given that everyone in this thread has acknowledged the fact that Cribbs has seen more opportunities than Hester on kickoffs?

Rather than waiting for an answer, I'm just going to call this post out for what it is: an attempt to seem smart by bucking conventional wisdom using highly debatable statistical analysis. Everyone who says Cribbs is better than Hester gets to feel smarter than NFL scouts and coaches and the average fan. Well done. :golfclap:

 

[top dog]

Do you guys sit around and see what kinda stuff you can talk yourselves into?

No one may agree who is better, but this is a great line.

 

[coolnerd]

this one made my day

 

[Alex96]

This is obvious by the fact that he isn't even in the top 10 in kick-off return average - a statistic that by definition has NOTHING TO DO WITH KICKS OUT OF BOUNDS.

So, are you saying that you think that Hester is not in the top 10 of all in the NFL who return Kick-offs? If so, then you've proven that you don't actually watch the NFL. If not, then you're admitting that KO return average doesn't necessarily accurately predict who is a better kick off returner.

 

[baconisgood]

If Cribbs is so much better, what has prevented him from breaking Hester's records, given that everyone in this thread has acknowledged the fact that Cribbs has seen more opportunities than Hester on kickoffs?

A: I'm not saying that Cribbs is a better return man than Hester, but that its close enough to make an extra contribution (like leading your team in ST tackles).B: Hester's and Cribbs' skill sets are different, Hester's leads to a boom bust profile, more TD returns but also more short returns and more fumbles (7 last year, 15 in two years eats into a lot of his value). Cribbs will get fewer TDs but will go down on first contact far less often. C: I admit that I totally left out Hester's WR contributions, I have no idea of the number of plays he was on the field or number of targets so I can't say if his receiving production was positive or not for his team.

 

[sholditch]

If Cribbs is so much better, what has prevented him from breaking Hester's records, given that everyone in this thread has acknowledged the fact that Cribbs has seen more opportunities than Hester on kickoffs?

A: I'm not saying that Cribbs is a better return man than Hester, but that its close enough to make an extra contribution (like leading your team in ST tackles).B: Hester's and Cribbs' skill sets are different, Hester's leads to a boom bust profile, more TD returns but also more short returns and more fumbles (7 last year, 15 in two years eats into a lot of his value). Cribbs will get fewer TDs but will go down on first contact far less often.

C: I admit that I totally left out Hester's WR contributions, I have no idea of the number of plays he was on the field or number of targets so I can't say if his receiving production was positive or not for his team.

A) So basically, in your opinion, 17 ST tackles are more important than 4 TDs. B) 3 lost in two years. So 12 in two years that essentially = a fair catch.

To the bolded part, I'm sorry, but aren't we both currently in this Thread? Cribbs vs. Hester, sub: Suprisingly, Cribbs is better overall return man.

 

[baconisgood]

If Cribbs is so much better, what has prevented him from breaking Hester's records, given that everyone in this thread has acknowledged the fact that Cribbs has seen more opportunities than Hester on kickoffs?

A: I'm not saying that Cribbs is a better return man than Hester, but that its close enough to make an extra contribution (like leading your team in ST tackles).B: Hester's and Cribbs' skill sets are different, Hester's leads to a boom bust profile, more TD returns but also more short returns and more fumbles (7 last year, 15 in two years eats into a lot of his value). Cribbs will get fewer TDs but will go down on first contact far less often.

C: I admit that I totally left out Hester's WR contributions, I have no idea of the number of plays he was on the field or number of targets so I can't say if his receiving production was positive or not for his team.

A) So basically, in your opinion, ST tackles are more important than TDs. B) 3 lost in two years. So 12 in two years that essentially = a fair catch.

To the bolded part, I'm sorry, but aren't we both currently in this Thread? Cribbs vs. Hester, sub: Suprisingly, Cribbs is better overall return man.

A: Tackles are not more important than TDs, but Cribbs is clearly the second best return man in the and those tackles are worth the gap between them.B: the fact that he got lucky on lost fumbles doesn't change the fact that they fell out of his hands in the past and will likely fall out in the future.

To the bolded, did I write the OP? Am I only allowed to post in threads where I 100% agree or 100% disagree with the premise?

 

[sholditch]

well, you've been defending the premise the entire time so I took it for granted that you agreed with it. Silly me.

also, you wrote:

When you take into account Hester's fumbling and Cribbs play as a gunner on special teams as well Cribbs > Hester as an NFL player

and now you are saying that 17, count them 17, 1.06 tackles a game, makes up the gap of Hester's 4 more TDs on the year, even though those TDs proved the difference in at least 1 win this past year. Also, even though Hester did little in the passing game, I would say that 299 yards and 2 TDs as a part time receiver adds a little more weight to his value, so basically you are saying that averaging 1.06 ST tackles a game is (depending on which of your posts I reference) is greater than or equal to the 6 extra TDs and 299 yards the Bears got from Hester.

Do I have that right?

 

[ATC1]

As a fantasy standpoint in KR yardage leagues, I'm taking Hester over Cribbs as I think Hester will have more opportunities in the Chicago offense. In fact, he might be the Chicago offense.