Cutler vs. Cassel Trades (1 Viewer)

[Jason Wood]

OK, putting aside where you stand on Jay Cutler and whether he or the coach or the agent were to blame, let's turn our attention to the trade in relation to the Matt Cassel trade.

Here's what we know:

*** Matt Cassel was traded from New England to Kansas City for a high 2nd round pick [Mike Vrabel was also sent to KC]

*** Matt Cassel was due the franchise $14.6mm in salary on a one-year deal

*** Scott Pioli is a long-time Belichick associate and now runs football operations in KC

*** Jay Cutler was traded from Denver to Chicago [along with a 5th rounder] in exchange for Kyle Orton, a 2009 1st, 2009 3rd and 2010 1st

*** Jay Cutler is in the middle of a six-year $48mm deal that pays him next to nothing in 2009 but has a $12mm roster bonus in 2010

*** Josh McDaniels was a Belichick assistant coach and OC with the team following Charlie Weis' departure

We also know that McDaniels coveted Cassel, and thought he was a better option than Jay Cutler to run his offense.

Doesn't something seem WACKY here?

I get that there were other contributing circumstances, such as...

1) The Patriots didn't have advantage of hindsight

2) Neither did the Broncos

3) The Pats needed that cap room to make their other offseason moves

But still, how can the Broncos personnel department explain this away? Unless they were offering significantly more for Matt Cassel than the Chiefs and the Pats just didn't want McDaniels to get his hands on Cassel, you have to ask yourself what happened here. It's hard to justify even if you accept that the Broncos never counted on this being a "Cassel or bust" situation.

 

[moleculo]

I'm not sure what you are asking. Can you please be a little more explicit with what is whacky?

 

[switz]

OK, putting aside where you stand on Jay Cutler and whether he or the coach or the agent were to blame, let's turn our attention to the trade in relation to the Matt Cassel trade.Here's what we know:*** Matt Cassel was traded from New England to Kansas City for a high 2nd round pick [Mike Vrabel was also sent to KC]*** Matt Cassel was due the franchise $14.6mm in salary on a one-year deal*** Scott Pioli is a long-time Belichick associate and now runs football operations in KC*** Jay Cutler was traded from Denver to Chicago [along with a 5th rounder] in exchange for Kyle Orton, a 2009 1st, 2009 3rd and 2010 1st*** Jay Cutler is in the middle of a six-year $48mm deal that pays him next to nothing in 2009 but has a $12mm roster bonus in 2010*** Josh McDaniels was a Belichick assistant coach and OC with the team following Charlie Weis' departureWe also know that McDaniels coveted Cassel, and thought he was a better option than Jay Cutler to run his offense. Doesn't something seem WACKY here?I get that there were other contributing circumstances, such as...1) The Patriots didn't have advantage of hindsight2) Neither did the Broncos3) The Pats needed that cap room to make their other offseason movesBut still, how can the Broncos personnel department explain this away? Unless they were offering significantly more for Matt Cassel than the Chiefs and the Pats just didn't want McDaniels to get his hands on Cassel, you have to ask yourself what happened here. It's hard to justify even if you accept that the Broncos never counted on this being a "Cassel or bust" situation.

Woodsy, I'm not sure what you're getting at... the Broncos gave up Cutler... do you think the Pats were interested in Cutler? I don't.The Broncos weren't giving away picks, like KC did... their currency was a QB that didn't want to play for them... they could only barter with teams interested in that QB.Now, if they had traded Cutler BEFORE Cassel got traded, then they would have had picks to play with, but due to the timing of the deals, what DEN had to offer wasn't something NE was buying...

 

[Jason Wood]

No, the wackiness is the perceived value of the cogs in both trades.

Unless you believe that New England took demonstrably less for Cassel than Denver was willing to give them, you have a situation where Denver was unwilling to spend more than a 2nd round pick to acquire a guy THEY felt was better than their current franchise QB. And clearly they thought Cutler would fetch a pretty penny in the trade market [and were right].

So it strikes me that either New England really didn't think through how much Cassel is worth, or Denver would love to go back in time and increase whatever their initial offer was for Cassel.

Just strikes me as a massive mispricing of assets somewhere. It also shows that the league seems to value Cutler a lot more than they did Cassel [which I personally think is the rationale way to look at them], but I get the sense a lot of folks around here wouldn't value Cutler more than Matt C.

 

[-baller]

OK, putting aside where you stand on Jay Cutler and whether he or the coach or the agent were to blame, let's turn our attention to the trade in relation to the Matt Cassel trade.Here's what we know:*** Matt Cassel was traded from New England to Kansas City for a high 2nd round pick [Mike Vrabel was also sent to KC]*** Matt Cassel was due the franchise $14.6mm in salary on a one-year deal*** Scott Pioli is a long-time Belichick associate and now runs football operations in KC*** Jay Cutler was traded from Denver to Chicago [along with a 5th rounder] in exchange for Kyle Orton, a 2009 1st, 2009 3rd and 2010 1st*** Jay Cutler is in the middle of a six-year $48mm deal that pays him next to nothing in 2009 but has a $12mm roster bonus in 2010*** Josh McDaniels was a Belichick assistant coach and OC with the team following Charlie Weis' departureWe also know that McDaniels coveted Cassel, and thought he was a better option than Jay Cutler to run his offense. Doesn't something seem WACKY here?

no

 

[Chase Stuart]

I'm not sure what you are asking. Can you please be a little more explicit with what is whacky?

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

McDaniels wanted Cassel but had Cutler

Cassel was traded for a 2nd round pick.

Cutler two firsts and a 3rd.

That isn't even or more than what Cutlers "value" was.

Yes I see your point.

 

[Banger]

The other day on WFAN Francessa said that Belicheck set up McDaniel (with this whole Cassel situation) and I wasn't sure exactly what he meant. From all appearances I thought the separation was somewhat amicable, is there any indication that it wasn't?

 

[guderian]

I think the answer is mostly in the contract/cap hit. Cassel's getting paid ~fair market value for one year and he'll have to sign a new, fair market value contract next year. However, without looking at the numbers, I'd guess that Cutler's contract going forward will be a good bit below $14.6 MM per year and he's tied up for much longer.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Not exactly sure what the question is, but if it's to do with the huge disparity in value between Cutler and Cassel I'd say the following:

1. Cutler > Cassel on the open market, let's just get that out of the way.

2. Cassel is due a big extension whereas you control Cutler for 3 years.

3. Belichick took less to get the deal done quickly.

Belichick himself has said on WEEI that he probably could've gotten more if he'd waited. The homer talking points around here about the whole thing have been rather frustrating.

Homer Pre-Trade Talking Points

Cassel is a quality, young, starting QB in this league, how often does a player like this become available for trade? There will be 5-6 teams bidding for Cassel, Patriots can use this trade to reload.

Homer Post-Trade Talking Points

The Patriots had to trade Cassel immediately otherwise they'd miss out on this stud TE and the 33 year old RB we really needed. If they had waited, they would risk missing out on these guys, and run the risk of being stuck with Cassel's $14 million salary figure!

It's been really frustrating. Just to be clear, I was saying the pre-trade talking points, but I haven't switched to the post-trade ones. I think Belichick screwed up, and if he could've gotten a 1st, or multiple 2nds for Cassel, and didn't because he was worried about missing out on Fred Taylor, then I think he made a mistake and should be criticized for it.

 

[cstu]

You're ignoring the salary factor. The Chiefs have to either pay Cassel $14M or negotiate a long-term deal with a lot of guaranteed money. The Bears on the other hand are getting a QB with 3 years left on his contract and while they may redo the deal soon they aren't forced to. Also, the Bears aren't on the hook for any guaranteed money and the $12M bonus isn't due until 2011.

 

[PatsWillWin]

The other day on WFAN Francessa said that Belicheck set up McDaniel (with this whole Cassel situation) and I wasn't sure exactly what he meant. From all appearances I thought the separation was somewhat amicable, is there any indication that it wasn't?

There's been some whispers about this, but nothing definitive like there was with Mangini - McD wasn't locked out of the facilities or anything. But McDaniels has said that he hasn't spoken to Belichick since he left, which seems unusual since he was obviously interested in Cassel. There's some speculation that something went down, but the idea that Belichick orchestrated this whole thing to blow up in Cutler's face is a little absurd...McDaniel's clearly fanned the flames at many different points during this whole thing.

 

[Jason Wood]

I think the answer is mostly in the contract/cap hit. Cassel's getting paid ~fair market value for one year and he'll have to sign a new, fair market value contract next year. However, without looking at the numbers, I'd guess that Cutler's contract going forward will be a good bit below $14.6 MM per year and he's tied up for much longer.

I've heard this argued and I just don't see it.Cutler wanted a new deal in Denver and, while he's saying the right things now, barring a complete meltdown in Chicago this year he's going to want a new deal before the 2010 season. Remember, Cutler is slotted to make $1.45mm in 2010 with a $4mm roster bonus. His big remaining pay day comes in the form of a $12mm roster bonus after the 2010 season; and there's no way he's going to be happy with making $5.45mm in 2010 if he performs in 2009. No way.So I think you have to logically believe that both franchise will need to give both QBs new market rate deals.

 

[Jason Wood]

Not exactly sure what the question is, but if it's to do with the huge disparity in value between Cutler and Cassel I'd say the following:

1. Cutler > Cassel on the open market, let's just get that out of the way.

2. Cassel is due a big extension whereas you control Cutler for 3 years.

3. Belichick took less to get the deal done quickly.

Belichick himself has said on WEEI that he probably could've gotten more if he'd waited. The homer talking points around here about the whole thing have been rather frustrating.

Homer Pre-Trade Talking Points

Cassel is a quality, young, starting QB in this league, how often does a player like this become available for trade? There will be 5-6 teams bidding for Cassel, Patriots can use this trade to reload.

Homer Post-Trade Talking Points

The Patriots had to trade Cassel immediately otherwise they'd miss out on this stud TE and the 33 year old RB we really needed. If they had waited, they would risk missing out on these guys, and run the risk of being stuck with Cassel's $14 million salary figure!

It's been really frustrating. Just to be clear, I was saying the pre-trade talking points, but I haven't switched to the post-trade ones. I think Belichick screwed up, and if he could've gotten a 1st, or multiple 2nds for Cassel, and didn't because he was worried about missing out on Fred Taylor, then I think he made a mistake and should be criticized for it.

Yep...I think this is where my confusion is coming from. If New England really got as much as they could for Cassel, it really does speak to value being in the eye of the beholder. Because McDaniels was willing to replace Cutler with him, a guy that fetched a 2nd rounder. Fascinating.

 

[switz]

No, the wackiness is the perceived value of the cogs in both trades.Unless you believe that New England took demonstrably less for Cassel than Denver was willing to give them, you have a situation where Denver was unwilling to spend more than a 2nd round pick to acquire a guy THEY felt was better than their current franchise QB. And clearly they thought Cutler would fetch a pretty penny in the trade market [and were right].

I see where you are coming from, but I still think the timing of the trades negates any comparison. What if DEN paid the 2nd round pick for Cassell, then tried to trade Cutler... do you still think they would have gotten 2 firsts? No, because as soon as they acquire Cassel, everyone knows they're getting rid of Cutler, and they'll get lowball offers only.

So it strikes me that either New England really didn't think through how much Cassel is worth, or Denver would love to go back in time and increase whatever their initial offer was for Cassel.

I think there were a number of issues that went into NE trading Cassel. The truth is, KC probably overpaid for Cassel. And if Cassel sat on the bench for a year again, what would he have been worth to NE after this year? Nothing... really, no team would have paid a 4th for him IMO. Truth is, NE is a QB-friendly system, and Cassel is a backup calibre QB who benefitted from the system. NE got what they could, when they could... they're smart.

Just strikes me as a massive mispricing of assets somewhere. It also shows that the league seems to value Cutler a lot more than they did Cassel [which I personally think is the rationale way to look at them], but I get the sense a lot of folks around here wouldn't value Cutler more than Matt C.

Well, the league rightly does value Cutler at a higher value than Cassel, and why not? Cassel is a backup calibre QB, Cutler is starting calibre. Remember Scott Mitchell and Rob Johnson? Just becuase a backup has a good season, it doesn't make them starer calibre.As for folks around here... well, they're value of certain players is way off frequently... that's what makes FF fun and interesting, the variation in the way we all measure the value of players.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Cassel went for what I thought he would go for. So did Cutler. I don't see any disconnect here.

 

[switz]

Cassel went for what I thought he would go for. So did Cutler. I don't see any disconnect here.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

No, the wackiness is the perceived value of the cogs in both trades.

Unless you believe that New England took demonstrably less for Cassel than Denver was willing to give them, you have a situation where Denver was unwilling to spend more than a 2nd round pick to acquire a guy THEY felt was better than their current franchise QB. And clearly they thought Cutler would fetch a pretty penny in the trade market [and were right].

So it strikes me that either New England really didn't think through how much Cassel is worth, or Denver would love to go back in time and increase whatever their initial offer was for Cassel.

Just strikes me as a massive mispricing of assets somewhere. It also shows that the league seems to value Cutler a lot more than they did Cassel [which I personally think is the rationale way to look at them], but I get the sense a lot of folks around here wouldn't value Cutler more than Matt C.

You mentioned it already but you somehow didn't put enough emphasis on the fact that the Pats had a clock ticking where they had to move Cassell before they got nailed with the big cap hit.Go to the link for the rest but basically Belichick says that they had to move Cassell quickly before eating the cap and they didn't want to wait for the Broncos to work out a three-way trade.

Beliichick quote link

Insight from Belichick

Link|Comments (57) Posted by Chad Finn, Globe Staff March 19, 2009 05:43 PM

The Denver Broncos might have wanted Matt Cassel to replace Jay Cutler, but they weren't nearly as aggressive in pursuing the quarterback as some reports have suggested, according to Patriots coach Bill Belichick.

"They never made that offer to me," Belichick said when asked on sports radio WEEI's "The Big Show" this afternoon whether the Broncos had offered first- and third-round picks for Cassel.

… Whether he showed favoritism by trading Cassel and Mike Vrabel to the Kansas City Chiefs and Scott Pioli, who spent nine years with Belichick in New England:

Here are a few of Belichick's more notable comments from the wide-ranging interview:

On whether receiving a second-round pick for Cassel was his expectation after he was designated the team's franchise player:

Belichick:. . .

Obviously the Pats wouldn't have traded Cassell for Cutler so another team would have had to of been involved and in this case Josh McDaniels was trying to work out something with the Bucs. So Josh got his hand caught in the cookie jar because the Pats NEVER would have come to the Broncos to try and get Cutler let alone were interested in trying to work out some sort of three-way.The Broncos screwed up, the Pats were just trying to get something done before they had to eat the cap from franchising Cassell.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Cassel is a backup calibre QB

 

[Buckeyedawgs]

I think Cassell might just have more FANTASY Value then Cutler as soon as this year.

No qq NE got scrwed out of all this. Varbel was bigger give away then Cassell.

He meant everything to that team. Leadership, knowledge, talent.

NE was forced their hand and got whipped but the rest of the league has to be grinning.

KC is the big winner out of all this if you ask me. Cassell I understand.

Varbel I don't? Yes I am prejudeced because he is my drinking buddy but

he 's been a winner everywhere he has ever played and will be a big reason

why the Chiefs are a winner soon!

As for Cutler....who cares. He's nothing but a big baby anyway.

 

[guderian]

I think the answer is mostly in the contract/cap hit. Cassel's getting paid ~fair market value for one year and he'll have to sign a new, fair market value contract next year. However, without looking at the numbers, I'd guess that Cutler's contract going forward will be a good bit below $14.6 MM per year and he's tied up for much longer.

I've heard this argued and I just don't see it.Cutler wanted a new deal in Denver and, while he's saying the right things now, barring a complete meltdown in Chicago this year he's going to want a new deal before the 2010 season. Remember, Cutler is slotted to make $1.45mm in 2010 with a $4mm roster bonus. His big remaining pay day comes in the form of a $12mm roster bonus after the 2010 season; and there's no way he's going to be happy with making $5.45mm in 2010 if he performs in 2009. No way.So I think you have to logically believe that both franchise will need to give both QBs new market rate deals.

I see your point, but Cassel will be a free agent and have 32 potential bidders after this season and Cutler will be in a situation where he has 1 bidder and his option is to just sit out because he really couldn't force another trade. So, I think that the Bears will get some sort of discounted deal for Cutler if they do re-negotiate. Plus if they do re-negotiate they will be locking him up for 5-6 more years at least.

 

[switz]

Cassel is a backup calibre QB

What says he isn't? He was in a VERY VERY QB FRIENDLY system. Remember Rob Johnson... Scott Mitchell?He was a backup in college, backup in the pros, 7th round pick. That all screams backup QB.While on the rare occasion (Brady, Terrell Davis, CMArtin) a late round pick becomes a star... it's a rarity, and I don't believe Cassel is the exception. Now he's going to KC, a bad team, a bad OL...

 

[PatsWillWin]

Cassel is a backup calibre QB

What says he isn't? He was in a VERY VERY QB FRIENDLY system. Remember Rob Johnson... Scott Mitchell?He was a backup in college, backup in the pros, 7th round pick. That all screams backup QB.While on the rare occasion (Brady, Terrell Davis, CMArtin) a late round pick becomes a star... it's a rarity, and I don't believe Cassel is the exception. Now he's going to KC, a bad team, a bad OL...

Yeah, I saw this song and dance in the other thread. The point is, you don't watch him play, and you hate the Patriots, so you have no credibility. You don't know anything about Matt Cassel other than reading his bio, and your insistence on sticking to your "analysis" about him based on just that reveals how biased and/or ignorant you are.Matt Cassel could be the next Joe Montana and you wouldn't have any idea because hey, he was a backup in college and a 7th round pick. I'll take Scott Pioli's, Josh McDaniel's, Mel Kiper (who said he's better than Cutler right now), and pretty much every talking head on any broadcast over you.

 

[massraider]

I think the answer is mostly in the contract/cap hit. Cassel's getting paid ~fair market value for one year and he'll have to sign a new, fair market value contract next year. However, without looking at the numbers, I'd guess that Cutler's contract going forward will be a good bit below $14.6 MM per year and he's tied up for much longer.

Yes. I don't think you need to look much further than the contract situations. KC had no guarantee that Cassel will be there for longer than one year.

 

[massraider]

I think the answer is mostly in the contract/cap hit. Cassel's getting paid ~fair market value for one year and he'll have to sign a new, fair market value contract next year. However, without looking at the numbers, I'd guess that Cutler's contract going forward will be a good bit below $14.6 MM per year and he's tied up for much longer.

I've heard this argued and I just don't see it.Cutler wanted a new deal in Denver

Speculation masquerading as fact.

 

[CalBear]

Figure it this way; Denver could have had Cassel for a first-round pick, and made a similar deal to offload Cutler. So they could have had Cassel, a first and a third instead of Orton, two firsts and a third. In hindsight, that would have been better than what they got. But I do think they got decent value for Cutler; trading him may have been a bad idea, but once they decided to trade him, they couldn't have expected more.

 

[Banger]

I'll take Scott Pioli's, Josh McDaniel's, Mel Kiper (who said he's better than Cutler right now), and pretty much every talking head on any broadcast over you.

now THAT is funny.

 

[Jason Wood]

Lots of sense being made in this thread

Just trying to think through the process. I guess if I set it against my own expectations, the QBs were traded for the equivalent amount of disparity in that I believe Cutler very much is a young franchise QB where I have serious doubts about what Cassel can/will achieve outside of the Patriots locker room.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Cassel is a backup calibre QB

He's Scott Mitchell part 2

 

[PatsWillWin]

I'll take Scott Pioli's, Josh McDaniel's, Mel Kiper (who said he's better than Cutler right now), and pretty much every talking head on any broadcast over you.

now THAT is funny.

Agreed, but the point is you cannot legitimately say that Cassel is a "backup caliber QB." I'd rather have Cutler than Cassel, but I'd probably rather have Cassel + 2 x 1st + 1 x 3rd than Cutler + 2nd. Not that any team got to make that decision, just saying.

 

[The Jacket]

Now he's going to KC, a bad team, a bad OL...

And yet Tyler Thigpen, who's not one tenth the QB Cassel is, looked good at times last year.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Lots of sense being made in this thread

Just trying to think through the process. I guess if I set it against my own expectations, the QBs were traded for the equivalent amount of disparity in that I believe Cutler very much is a young franchise QB where I have serious doubts about what Cassel can/will achieve outside of the Patriots locker room.

These doubts are legitimate, but I think it's safe to say that McDaniels doesn't really have these doubts, which is at the crux of the issue here. You have to hink that if McDaniels is willing to rock the boat to ship Cutler out of town to get Cassel, he must consider him a considerable upgrade. That would lead me to believe that he would give up more than a 2nd for him.Personally, I'm not positive that McDaniels had the opportunity to bid on Cassel because I think the Patriots did a poor job shopping him.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I'll take Scott Pioli's, Josh McDaniel's, Mel Kiper (who said he's better than Cutler right now), and pretty much every talking head on any broadcast over you.

now THAT is funny.

Agreed, but the point is you cannot legitimately say that Cassel is a "backup caliber QB." I'd rather have Cutler than Cassel, but I'd probably rather have Cassel + 2 x 1st + 1 x 3rd than Cutler + 2nd. Not that any team got to make that decision, just saying.

Well it's really Cutler and a 5th rounder vs. Cassel, the #18 pick and a 3rd rounder. The 2010 first is about equal to the #34 pick this year. Personally, I'd take Cutler/5th over Cassel/18/3rd, but it's close.

 

[-baller]

Personally, I'm not positive that McDaniels had the opportunity to bid on Cassel because I think the Patriots did a poor job shopping him.

I'll take belichick over you.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Personally, I'm not positive that McDaniels had the opportunity to bid on Cassel because I think the Patriots did a poor job shopping him.

I'll take belichick over you.

The man himself said he could've gotten more. To me that means he did a poor job shopping him.

 

[Banger]

These doubts are legitimate, but I think it's safe to say that McDaniels doesn't really have these doubts, which is at the crux of the issue here. You have to hink that if McDaniels is willing to rock the boat to ship Cutler out of town to get Cassel, he must consider him a considerable upgrade. That would lead me to believe that he would give up more than a 2nd for him.

Not necessarily, he just may think he wouldn't be a big dropoff especially since he already knows the system so the transition could be quick and smooth. He also may have thought he could get Cassel for a 2nd or cheap 1st and able to turn Cutler for what he was traded for. He could have seen this solution to be the quickest way to turn the team around and restock the defense while not taking a big step back on the offense due to Cassel's familiarity with the system.

 

[moleculo]

These doubts are legitimate, but I think it's safe to say that McDaniels doesn't really have these doubts, which is at the crux of the issue here. You have to hink that if McDaniels is willing to rock the boat to ship Cutler out of town to get Cassel, he must consider him a considerable upgrade. That would lead me to believe that he would give up more than a 2nd for him.

Not necessarily, he just may think he wouldn't be a big dropoff especially since he already knows the system so the transition could be quick and smooth. He also may have thought he could get Cassel for a 2nd or cheap 1st and able to turn Cutler for what he was traded for. He could have seen this solution to be the quickest way to turn the team around and restock the defense while not taking a big step back on the offense due to Cassel's familiarity with the system.

not to mention Cassels familiarity would help the rest of the team learn faster...kind of like having an extra coach. Cassels value to the Broncos would have been higher than Cassels value to any other team.

 

[-baller]

Personally, I'm not positive that McDaniels had the opportunity to bid on Cassel because I think the Patriots did a poor job shopping him.

I'll take belichick over you.

The man himself said he could've gotten more. To me that means he did a poor job shopping him.

the man himself said if he had waited he could've possibly gotten more, and he didn't want to wait.please don't spread misinformation and supposed quotes taken out of context.to me that means you are doing a poor job posting.once again belichick >>> you

 

[switz]

These doubts are legitimate, but I think it's safe to say that McDaniels doesn't really have these doubts, which is at the crux of the issue here. You have to hink that if McDaniels is willing to rock the boat to ship Cutler out of town to get Cassel, he must consider him a considerable upgrade. That would lead me to believe that he would give up more than a 2nd for him.

Not necessarily, he just may think he wouldn't be a big dropoff especially since he already knows the system so the transition could be quick and smooth. He also may have thought he could get Cassel for a 2nd or cheap 1st and able to turn Cutler for what he was traded for. He could have seen this solution to be the quickest way to turn the team around and restock the defense while not taking a big step back on the offense due to Cassel's familiarity with the system.

Banger makes an awesome point here, and when you look at the type of QBs that McDaniels was looking at, they all fit the system better than Cutler. Quinn, Orton, Cassel all are better suited for ball control offenses... short passes, slants, nothing too deep. Cutler is a gunslinger IMO. Reminds me of the difference between Bledsoe and Brady when that switch was made.In my opinion this was a three way situation engineered by friends which made things workout the way each team wanted. For NE it removes any QB controversy, though there really shouldn't have been any. For KC, the fans there are happy the team addressed the QB situation, though reportedly Cassel is going to compete with Thigpen for the job. And in DEN, it made it easier to get rid of Cutler without causing a fan revolt. I don't think McDaniels wanted Cutler going in.

I believe McDaniels wanted Quinn all along, and even heard rumors about a three way trade between NE, DEN, and CLE at one point. I don't think Cassel was ever truly in McDaniels' plans.

 

[Ron_Mexico]

Personally, I'm not positive that McDaniels had the opportunity to bid on Cassel because I think the Patriots did a poor job shopping him.

I'll take belichick over you.

The man himself said he could've gotten more. To me that means he did a poor job shopping him.

the man himself said if he had waited he could've possibly gotten more, and he didn't want to wait.please don't spread misinformation and supposed quotes taken out of context.to me that means you are doing a poor job posting.once again belichick >>> you

I have to agree with Baller here.If BB had waited and gotten another 2nd in the deal,would it be worth it to lose on the bevy of FAs who were signed during that period after the deal ?Fred TaylorChris BakerLeigh BoddenShawn SpringsJoey Galloway.If the Pats are to make another run,they need players like this much more than an extra 2nd rounder, imo..

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Mike Ries from the Boston Globe covers the Pats.

Here is his take on this topic.

Ries's Pieces

Cutler vs. Cassel trade

ANALYSIS

Several emails this morning asked the question "How could the Patriots get just a second-round pick (34th overall) for Matt Cassel/Mike Vrabel, while the Broncos acquired two first-rounders and a third-rounder for Jay Cutler/fifth-rounder?"

The topic was also blogged by ESPN.com's Tim Graham and written on by colleague Tony Massarotti.

Summing up my thoughts, I go back to what I wrote when the Patriots made the Cassel trade. I compared the trade to the Patriots playing blackjack and getting dealt a 17.

When considering the totality of the situation, it wasn't the best hand, or a 21 like the Broncos were just dealt. At the same time, I still don't see it as a fold.

Here are a few key points upon which I base my analysis:

1) Denver not an option. I go on the assumption that the Patriots would not trade Cassel to the Broncos. Even if the Broncos offered a first-round pick, I think keeping Cassel away from Josh McDaniels was a priority to the Patriots (they didn't want their system so easily duplicated by an AFC contender with a former coach-quarterback in place). So taking the high second-rounder and playing keepaway was deemed a better move by them. Even if the Patriots would have traded with the Broncos, the Denver offer came late, which is an important consideration because ...

2) Timing was imperative. The Patriots had $29.2 million of their salary cap tied up in Cassel and Tom Brady, two players at the same position. They had to move fast to clear the Cassel space (they had about $2 million worth of space at the start of free agency), so they could make other moves like Fred Taylor, Chris Baker, Joey Galloway, etc. They knew placing the $14.6 million franchise tag on Cassel in the first place was a risk in this regard, so they made their round of calls, assessed the market, and took the best deal in the tight time window they created for themselves. They would have liked a Cutler-like package, no doubt. It wasn't there, because ...

3) View of Cassel around the NFL. One statistic that other clubs looked at very closely was that 55 percent of the Patriots' passing offense in 2008 came after the catch, easily an NFL high. Teams like the Buccaneers, Lions and Bears looked at their own personnel, realized they didn't have the same structure in place (no Moss, Welker, Faulk), and had reservations about Cassel, whose body of work was limited to one year. Those same reservations obviously didn't exist with Cutler -- whose body of work was studied over three NFL seasons plus college -- as evidenced by the number of teams involved in the trade discussions. In this case, the market spoke loudly to the Patriots, and ...

4) Cassel's $14.6 million salary was also a consideration. Another factor in the compensation the Patriots recieved was Cassel's one-year, $14.6 million salary. For a team to acquire Cassel without insisting on an extension, some risk is incurred. It's possible that the Chiefs could only have Cassel for one year. Cutler, meanwhile, has three years left on his deal. Furthermore, the team acquiring Cassel had to have the cap space available and be willing to use it, and only one team stepped forward willing to do so.

5) Inclusion of Mike Vrabel. At first, it appeared to me that the Chiefs insisted on Mike Vrabel in the deal as a sweetener. In ensuing days, my viewpoint changed and I think the Patriots decided it was time to turn over that position to a younger player with the idea that football is a "changing game" and tough decisions like those must be made to sustain long-term success. Vrabel was due a $1 million roster bonus, so making that move quickly was also part of their mindset -- whether one agrees with it or not...

 

[switz]

Now he's going to KC, a bad team, a bad OL...

And yet Tyler Thigpen, who's not one tenth the QB Cassel is, looked good at times last year.

I'm not sure why Thigpen, if he's not one tenth of the QB Cassel is, will get to compete for the starting position.Let's be realistic... KC in not NE... and while they may have brought over some NE personnel... Cassel won't be throwing to NE's WRs in NE's offensive system, which is very easy for a QB to play in... I actually think Thigpen and Cassel are about equals... and Thigpen may have the edge

 

[switz]

Mike Ries from the Boston Globe covers the Pats.

Here is his take on this topic.

Ries's Pieces

They would have liked a Cutler-like package, no doubt. It wasn't there, because ...view of Cassel around the NFL. One statistic that other clubs looked at very closely was that 55 percent of the Patriots' passing offense in 2008 came after the catch, easily an NFL high. Teams like the Buccaneers, Lions and Bears looked at their own personnel, realized they didn't have the same structure in place (no Moss, Welker, Faulk), and had reservations about Cassel, whose body of work was limited to one year.

Bingo, and we have a winner. The real pros at player evaluation know that Cassel isn't really that good. His stats are overinflated by the system and personnel.

 

[Bizkiteer]

No, the wackiness is the perceived value of the cogs in both trades.Unless you believe that New England took demonstrably less for Cassel than Denver was willing to give them, you have a situation where Denver was unwilling to spend more than a 2nd round pick to acquire a guy THEY felt was better than their current franchise QB. And clearly they thought Cutler would fetch a pretty penny in the trade market [and were right].So it strikes me that either New England really didn't think through how much Cassel is worth, or Denver would love to go back in time and increase whatever their initial offer was for Cassel.Just strikes me as a massive mispricing of assets somewhere. It also shows that the league seems to value Cutler a lot more than they did Cassel [which I personally think is the rationale way to look at them], but I get the sense a lot of folks around here wouldn't value Cutler more than Matt C.

It's all similar to when you hit up an owner to trade for a RB. If you have no injuries, the payment/price might not be as high. If your main RB just went down, uh oh...time to pay the piper. Though injuries are not involved, it comes down to the same thing...TIMING. Of course, it helps if the other owner likes you compared to them not liking you.

 

[Buddy Ball 2K3]

IMO its not that complicated. One has a one year deal and no guarantee that he will sign with the team he was traded to and the other has 3 years left on his deal at some very reasonable numbers. If you listened to the press conference in Chicago Angelo said that in time they will see if Cutler is a franchise QB. He clearly is letting Cutler know that he has to prove himself for the next season or two before he will renegotiate his contract.

 

[DWidmar]

New England was forced to trade Cassel for cap reasons. The league sort of had New England over the barrel becasue they had a time limit to make a deal. Thus the potential trading partners had a leg up in the deal over New England. Denver had Cutler under contract for 3 more years. They ultimately could have let the situation play in to the season forcing Cutler to have to play (at some point) and thus trading partners had no advantage on Denver.

We see the same thing when a disgruntled player is about to get cut from a team. Most of the time, teams won't trade even a late pick for the player because they want to take their chances in free agency instead of giving up a pick. The potntial trading partners know the team is going to have to release the player at some point.

 

[ravnzfan]

Personally, I'm not positive that McDaniels had the opportunity to bid on Cassel because I think the Patriots did a poor job shopping him.

I'll take belichick over you.

The man himself said he could've gotten more. To me that means he did a poor job shopping him.

NE has done an unbelievable job moving parts(either old/or expensive, or both) for high draft pix--then turning them into starters for years---AND---taking guys that nobody else wants and getting tremendous value out of what's left (FreddieT & Galloway this yr...Moss for $5M/yr, the list goes on)I think Belichick threw it out there to see what would come his way (KC's 2nd is only a couple spots removed from the 1st), knowing he didn't want to pay the rediculous number required to roster both Cassell and Brady this year...and would only consider moving Cassell to someone who wouldn't hurt them w/the deal (seriously---Denver or KC...was there ever really any doubt here?)

Billy-boy can play some poker w/the parts---either the players or the pix---better than most in the NFL...this was just another example, because I'm not too sure how many GM's that want to keep their job are going to pony up a bunch of money ($14.6M) AND a bunch of pix for a guy that played backup in HS/college, starting just 15 NFL games

 

[Rockchild]

[What if DEN paid the 2nd round pick for Cassell, then tried to trade Cutler... do you still think they would have gotten 2 firsts? No, because as soon as they acquire Cassel, everyone knows they're getting rid of Cutler, and they'll get lowball offers only.

Everyone knew they were trading Cutler because the owner himself announced it and they still received good offers. Would having the great Matt Cassell on their roster make that much difference in Cutlers trade value?

 

[CalBear]

once again belichick >>> you

So? Pioli >>> you, Belichick >>> you. The question is whether Pioli >>> Belichick or not. Belichick has a history of success, that doesn't mean he never makes mistakes, and it doesn't mean he's the best personnel guy in the league--especially since the guy who was running personnel for Belichick is the guy who made this trade. What if Pioli was really the brains behind the Pats personnel moves, and he just made another shrewd move to extract value from his former employer?The point is, putting Belichick on an altar and shooting down any criticism of him is foolish. He makes mistakes, and the Cassel trade could easily end up being one of them.

 

[-baller]

Cassel is a backup calibre QB

What says he isn't? He was in a VERY VERY QB FRIENDLY system. Remember Rob Johnson... Scott Mitchell?He was a backup in college, backup in the pros, 7th round pick. That all screams backup QB.While on the rare occasion (Brady, Terrell Davis, CMArtin) a late round pick becomes a star... it's a rarity, and I don't believe Cassel is the exception. Now he's going to KC, a bad team, a bad OL...

Yeah, I saw this song and dance in the other thread. The point is, you don't watch him play, and you hate the Patriots, so you have no credibility. You don't know anything about Matt Cassel other than reading his bio, and your insistence on sticking to your "analysis" about him based on just that reveals how biased and/or ignorant you are.Matt Cassel could be the next Joe Montana and you wouldn't have any idea because hey, he was a backup in college and a 7th round pick. I'll take Scott Pioli's, Josh McDaniel's, Mel Kiper (who said he's better than Cutler right now), and pretty much every talking head on any broadcast over you.

and in much the same way I'll take belichick's judgement over jetswillwin.it's certainly possible that belichick made a mistake, or pioli got the better of the deal, but there IS such a thing as common sense, and frankly, I don't trust either of you guys to one up belichick on a football decision.what do you think he should've gotten, who was giving it to him, and when?