Democratic Voters - When Do They Finally Move The Party Forward?? (1 Viewer)

[dkp993]

Over the last few months I’ve found myself increasingly frustrated (angry?) with the recent primaries and the nomination of Biden. I really believe this was a massively lost opportunity for the Democratic voters to move their party forward, or at least in another direction. Republican voters showed that they are at least willing to, whether I agree with the decision or not, do something different via Trump.  The democratic field had some interesting candidates this year that could very easily have changed the face, direction and energy of the party. Instead they picked a tired retread.  

So with that said what will it take as to wake these voters up?  Or is it as simple as this once again proves that branding, name recognition and marketing work? 
 

*Also please keep this from becoming a Trump bashing thread, there’s plenty of those, this is a different topic. Peace and love peace and love

 

[McBokonon]

From my experience, I think if the opponent was literally anybody else on earth we might have nominated a Warren or someone. Rank and File voters were terrified (not arguing if they were justified or not) that a Progressive voter would do poorly in critical swing states.

 

[Snotbubbles]

I think Bernie lost a golden opportunity here.  If he would have lightened his stance on some of his policy considerations he could have moved the party forward, IMO.  For example, instead of going full Universal Healthcare and scrapping the old system, keep a private option but introduce your Universal option on a smaller scale.  That would then give people something to compare the current system with, it would give you a better idea on what the actual costs would be and it would allow you to work out the administrative kinks on a smaller scale.  If it was better, it would be an easier sell for a future candidate.  If it's not, nothing lost, you still have the old system to fall back on.  That type of policy concession would have made Sanders more appealing to moderates.  Same thing with climate change, instead of doing away with entire industries like fracking, start smaller like creating the types of energy sources that you believe are better for the climate and slowly reduce the reliance on those other industries.  He just wanted to jump into the deep end without learning how to swim first.  

 

[KiddLattimer]

Totally with you on the frustration, I switched my registration from Democrat to No Affiliation after NY tried to rip the primary away for "safety concerns". Even with the primary reinstated I'm just done with them.

At the start of this primary it really did look like they were open for changing dramatically to the left... even if it wasn't Bernie someone like Warren or Pete was still a move to the left, even if it isn't as much as someone like me wants, it's still progress. Then we get Biden, who is right of Obama and even Hillary in many ways... classic Democrat move.

Fortunately a lot of the old guard is getting too old to run so maybe some of the Petes of the world will get a chance to make some noise. I don't see anyone in the Bernie lane who is capable of taking over the Democrat party so I'm hoping for a third party to gain steam in the next decade or so, but I don't think any real leftward change happens inside the party itself.

 

[Bucsfan5493]

Probably never. Both parties are stuck in their own ways and don’t want to buffer on any big policies.

I think we’ll need to see a 3rd party gain traction in order for any real change to happen.

 

[zftcg]

I don’t think you can say what Democratic voters “chose” without discussing the alternatives. Biden was definitely not my choice at the outset, but by the time we started voting I didn’t view any of the other candidates as being  viable. 

When it was Obama vs. Hillary in 2008, in a race Democrats were heavily favored to win regardless of the candidate, you could say the party made a clear choice. This year, other than a pretty decisive rejection of Bernie, I’m not sure there was much of a decision to make. 

 

[Slapdash]

Over the last few months I’ve found myself increasingly frustrated (angry?) with the recent primaries and the nomination of Biden. I really believe this was a massively lost opportunity for the Democratic voters to move their party forward, or at least in another direction. Republican voters showed that they are at least willing to, whether I agree with the decision or not, do something different via Trump.  The democratic field had some interesting candidates this year that could very easily have changed the face, direction and energy of the party. Instead they picked a tired retread.  

So with that said what will it take as to wake these voters up?  Or is it as simple as this once again proves that branding, name recognition and marketing work? 
 

*Also please keep this from becoming a Trump bashing thread, there’s plenty of those, this is a different topic. Peace and love peace and love

When young liberals actually turn up at the polls. 

 

[Summer Wheat]

Get rid of the geezers on top.  When I saw a clip with Biden, Sanders, Schumer and Pelosi it looked like a senior citizen assisted living complex with Chuck being the young buck at 70.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Probably in four or eight years. 

 

[squistion]

From my experience, I think if the opponent was literally anybody else on earth we might have nominated a Warren or someone. Rank and File voters were terrified (not arguing if they were justified or not) that a Progressive voter would do poorly in critical swing states.

And justifiably so. Sanders stood no chance as an avowed Socialist and threw away Florida with his singing the praises for Fidel Castro. Warren had the Native American baggage and all we would have heard from convention forward was Trump and the right screaming Pocahontas! along with the meme that she wants Medicare-for-all. Mayor Pete was more moderate, but I doubt that voters in swing states are ready to elect an openly gay man in 2020.

That left Biden by default and the needed safe choice to face Trump.

 

[Slapdash]

Totally with you on the frustration, I switched my registration from Democrat to No Affiliation after NY tried to rip the primary away for "safety concerns". Even with the primary reinstated I'm just done with them.

At the start of this primary it really did look like they were open for changing dramatically to the left... even if it wasn't Bernie someone like Warren or Pete was still a move to the left, even if it isn't as much as someone like me wants, it's still progress. Then we get Biden, who is right of Obama and even Hillary in many ways... classic Democrat move.

Fortunately a lot of the old guard is getting too old to run so maybe some of the Petes of the world will get a chance to make some noise. I don't see anyone in the Bernie lane who is capable of taking over the Democrat party so I'm hoping for a third party to gain steam in the next decade or so, but I don't think any real leftward change happens inside the party itself.

The frustrating thing here is that Pete did have a chance to make some noise. Bernie supporters flooded social media with conspiracy theories following his Iowa win calling him a "rat".  The Trump-like toxicity of a lot of Bernie supporters was a big reason a lot of us went to the polls looking to make sure that did not become the party.  

 

[Osaurus]

Get rid of the geezers on top.  When I saw a clip with Biden, Sanders, Schumer and Pelosi it looked like a senior citizen assisted living complex with Chuck being the young buck at 70.

 

[zftcg]

Get rid of the geezers on top.  When I saw a clip with Biden, Sanders, Schumer and Pelosi it looked like a senior citizen assisted living complex with Chuck being the young buck at 70.

The best news I’ve heard about Biden is that he wants to position himself as a bridge to the next generation via his VP and other appointments. If we can get Trump out of office this year and then position the future leadership of the party as something other than a bunch of old white guys, well, that won’t be the way I would have drawn it up but it may get us where we need to be

 

[zftcg]

I guess another way of saying what I’m saying is that by nominating someone as old as Biden, the Dems didn’t necessarily make a choice as much as defer one

 

[Slapdash]

Get rid of the geezers on top.  When I saw a clip with Biden, Sanders, Schumer and Pelosi it looked like a senior citizen assisted living complex with Chuck being the young buck at 70.

The best news I’ve heard about Biden is that he wants to position himself as a bridge to the next generation via his VP and other appointments. If we can get Trump out of office this year and then position the future leadership of the party as something other than a bunch of old white guys, well, that won’t be the way I would have drawn it up but it may get us where we need to be

One of the oddest splits this election was how Sanders, at 78, had the most support among young voters.  Pete, an actual liberal millenial, had the most support among the older voters.  

Due to the primary system, the demographic that really mattered was Southern blacks though.

 

[dkp993]

I think we’ll need to see a 3rd party gain traction in order for any real change to happen

This is probably correct 

 

[timschochet]

I will respect your request not to turn this into a Trump bashing thing or a Republican bashing thing but the answer to your question is: after Trump and the current group of Republicans that support him have been defeated. They have to be gone first. 
Right now we can’t get the most basic stuff done on climate change, health care, gun control, etc. - even though the majority of Americans support the Democrats, the other side has enough votes to block everything. That needs to go away. Furthermore there is the threat of a Supreme Court dominated by conservatives. That threat needs to be defeated. Most of all there is Trump’s incompetence with regard to the coronavirus- we need a competent government and that need is more vital than anything else. 
 

Until these problems are resolved a partnership between Democrats of all stripes, independents, and moderate Republicans is absolutely necessary, and such a partnership precludes the ideas of the more progressive wing of the Democratic Party. After these problems are dealt with, we can return to a more pluralistic competition of ideas and progressivism will likely then have its day. 

 

[KiddLattimer]

The frustrating thing here is that Pete did have a chance to make some noise. Bernie supporters flooded social media with conspiracy theories following his Iowa win calling him a "rat".  The Trump-like toxicity of a lot of Bernie supporters was a big reason a lot of us went to the polls looking to make sure that did not become the party.  

I don't disagree that the Rat thing wasn't Bernie twitter's finest moment but that's not why Pete lost.

For the toxicity part... there was an interesting study done on the online supporters of all candidates that found that all supporters pretty much acted the same way as everyone else, but Bernie just had a larger base. 

For example there was a father who became a Medicare 4 All activist after his son committed suicide due to not having money for his medicine for mental illness. A Pete supporter (now deleted) went after him saying the following: 

"Don't be mad at me. I'm not the one who raised a weak minded fool who couldn't pay his bills." and "So I should have my taxes raised because you raised a mental midget that took his own life? Maybe a better parent could have provided better mental nourishment. That s**t is tax free."

Of course there are other examples from other candidates... racist things at Nina Turner, violent threats against Bernie, etc. 

I'm not saying there weren't Bernie Bros who went overboard - there totally were and those people should be suspended and/or arrested if anything illegal was done - but it's easy to cherry pick examples and blast them all over if the narrative fits. 

 

[Slapdash]

I don't disagree that the Rat thing wasn't Bernie twitter's finest moment but that's not why Pete lost.

For the toxicity part... there was an interesting study done on the online supporters of all candidates that found that all supporters pretty much acted the same way as everyone else, but Bernie just had a larger base. 

For example there was a father who became a Medicare 4 All activist after his son committed suicide due to not having money for his medicine for mental illness. A Pete supporter (now deleted) went after him saying the following: 

Of course there are other examples from other candidates... racist things at Nina Turner, violent threats against Bernie, etc. 

I'm not saying there weren't Bernie Bros who went overboard - there totally were and those people should be suspended and/or arrested if anything illegal was done - but it's easy to cherry pick examples and blast them all over if the narrative fits. 

That's fair and Pete was always a longshot.  Just will make two clarifying points:

1. I'm mostly referencing things I saw in person both here and on Twitter. A lot of very liberal policy people I follow were very disapointing on this. 
   
2. Not blaming Bernie himself for this at all beyond hiring questionable people like Sirota. Running from an anti-establishment/populist perspective is bound to attract a lot of these types. There was a lot of focus from the movement on what divides people and intnetions to broadcast the worst of people. Trying to bring everyone down.
   

 

[KiddLattimer]

That's fair and Pete was always a longshot.  Just will make two clarifying points:

1. I'm mostly referencing things I saw in person both here and on Twitter. A lot of very liberal policy people I follow were very disapointing on this. 
   
2. Not blaming Bernie himself for this at all beyond hiring questionable people like Sirota. Running from an anti-establishment/populist perspective is bound to attract a lot of these types. There was a lot of focus from the movement on what divides people and intnetions to broadcast the worst of people. Trying to bring everyone down.
   

Yea I don't disagree with your overall point, Bernie Bros on twitter did take it too far.

I think some of it comes from a point of frustration and/or desperation. A friend of mine made the infamous Bloomberg commercial about Bernie Bros saying "F You Bloomberg" (uncensored of course). She's a single mom whose husband ran off. Has no insurance, can barely rub two nickels together, and has health conditions. She's extremely vocal on Twitter and has a pretty good sized following now, but I totally understand where she's coming from. She needed Bernie to win for M4A... it was her best shot.

Even then though it doesn't give people the right to harass, threaten or dox anyone though for sure. 

 

[Leroy Hoard]

The best news I’ve heard about Biden is that he wants to position himself as a bridge to the next generation via his VP and other appointments. If we can get Trump out of office this year and then position the future leadership of the party as something other than a bunch of old white guys, well, that won’t be the way I would have drawn it up but it may get us where we need to be

This really is the best case scenario for the dems. Get rid of Trump now and get someone under 60 for the next go round, more than likely against either Pence or Cruz.

 

[Thunderlips]

Over the last few months I’ve found myself increasingly frustrated (angry?) with the recent primaries and the nomination of Biden. I really believe this was a massively lost opportunity for the Democratic voters to move their party forward, or at least in another direction. Republican voters showed that they are at least willing to, whether I agree with the decision or not, do something different via Trump.  The democratic field had some interesting candidates this year that could very easily have changed the face, direction and energy of the party. Instead they picked a tired retread.  

So with that said what will it take as to wake these voters up?  Or is it as simple as this once again proves that branding, name recognition and marketing work? 
 

*Also please keep this from becoming a Trump bashing thread, there’s plenty of those, this is a different topic. Peace and love peace and love

Who?  Who specifically could have "changed the face, direction and energy of the party" AND could have won the general election?

 

[BladeRunner]

It's scary how a lot of you think the party should be moving FURTHER left than it already has become.  The Democrats don't need to be going further left, they need to be moving back towards the middle.  Otherwise, I suggest they rename themselves something other than "Democrat", because that's NOT what they are becoming.

Also, Socialism isn't the answer either.  It's NEVER been the answer. EVER.  It's only a stepping stone away from Communism.

 

[Thunderlips]

It's scary how a lot of you think the party should be moving FURTHER left than it already has become.  The Democrats don't need to be going further left, they need to be moving back towards the middle.  Otherwise, I suggest they rename themselves something other than "Democrat", because that's NOT what they are becoming.

Socialism isn't the answer.  It's NEVER been the answer. EVER.  It's only a stepping stone away from Communism.

There's over 80 years of economic prosperity in the U.S. that incorporated socialistic mechanisms that would disagree with you......but keep on keeping on.  

 

[msudaisy26]

I will respect your request not to turn this into a Trump bashing thing or a Republican bashing thing but the answer to your question is: after Trump and the current group of Republicans that support him have been defeated. They have to be gone first. 
Right now we can’t get the most basic stuff done on climate change, health care, gun control, etc. - even though the majority of Americans support the Democrats, the other side has enough votes to block everything. That needs to go away. Furthermore there is the threat of a Supreme Court dominated by conservatives. That threat needs to be defeated. Most of all there is Trump’s incompetence with regard to the coronavirus- we need a competent government and that need is more vital than anything else. 
 

Until these problems are resolved a partnership between Democrats of all stripes, independents, and moderate Republicans is absolutely necessary, and such a partnership precludes the ideas of the more progressive wing of the Democratic Party. After these problems are dealt with, we can return to a more pluralistic competition of ideas and progressivism will likely then have its day. 

I don't believe this at all. This is the Democrats rallying cry for this election. If they do win they will find another "evil" in 4 years that must be defeated before we can start making changes in our country and that cycle will continue. 

 

[roadkill1292]

Time will take care of this problem. The next waves of truly liberal voters haven't arrived in force yet. But when they do, we'll start seeing more AOCs, Jamie Raskins's and Tom Beyers in the House.

 

[BladeRunner]

There's over 80 years of economic prosperity in the U.S. that incorporated socialistic mechanisms that would disagree with you......but keep on keeping on.  

Sorry, but that's just not true.

This whole nonsense about every time the government does something it's considered socialism is just that - nonsense.  It's what you guys say to fool the rubes into thinking they are already living under Socialism.

Better solution:  Why don't you guys just move out of the country to your favorite Socialist country?  We don't want that crap here.  It's deadly.

 

[BladeRunner]

Time will take care of this problem. The next waves of truly liberal voters haven't arrived in force yet. But when they do, we'll start seeing more AOCs, Jamie Raskins's and Tom Beyers in the House.

And that will be the end of the USA as a Democracy.  That's when you'll see the next Civil War.

 

[Widbil83]

Joe Biden is taking the baton and running faster than Usain Bolt to move the Democratic Party forward. He’s up 10pts in the national polls. What a weird thread.

 

[BladeRunner]

Joe Biden is taking the baton and running faster than Usain Bolt to move the Democratic Party forward. He’s up 10pts in the national polls. What a weird thread.

Except that he forgot to grab he baton or can't remember where he put it.

 

[Slapdash]

Yea I don't disagree with your overall point, Bernie Bros on twitter did take it too far.

I think some of it comes from a point of frustration and/or desperation. A friend of mine made the infamous Bloomberg commercial about Bernie Bros saying "F You Bloomberg" (uncensored of course). He's a single mom whose husband ran off. Has no insurance, can barely rub two nickels together, and has health conditions. She's extremely vocal on Twitter and has a pretty good sized following now, but I totally understand where she's coming from. 

Even then though it doesn't give people the right to harass, threaten or dox anyone though for sure. 

Yeah, I get that too. Our inability to ensure that every American has health insurance/care is simply inexcusable and should make people angry. The combination of a too conservative Democratic caucus/complete GOP obstruction after Obama's election really messed up our real opportunity to get something done.  I remember being confused during Obama's victory speech when he was talking about how the work was just begining. Well, he was right and "we" really disapointed in 2010.

But, overall, America is just not a liberal country. Enacting liberal polices requires hybrid, incremental proposals that people farther on the left are too quick to dismiss when it comes general election time or time to vote in Congress.  Too quick to get discouraged that we have to "eat the elephat" one bite at a time.

Overall, my personal modus operandi is to make sure to focus on turning out locally for liberal candidates, keeping the GOP out of office, and advocating good policies where possible. I still think there is a clear choice in November.

 

[whoknew]

Isn't the reality just that there are more moderate/centrist Dem voters than left wingers? And when Biden won South Carolina he emerged as the moderate to rally around.

I get that that upsets the left wingers. 

 

[Summer Wheat]

I will respect your request not to turn this into a Trump bashing thing or a Republican bashing thing but the answer to your question is: after Trump and the current group of Republicans that support him have been defeated. They have to be gone first. 
Right now we can’t get the most basic stuff done on climate change, health care, gun control, etc. - even though the majority of Americans support the Democrats, the other side has enough votes to block everything. That needs to go away. Furthermore there is the threat of a Supreme Court dominated by conservatives. That threat needs to be defeated. Most of all there is Trump’s incompetence with regard to the coronavirus- we need a competent government and that need is more vital than anything else. 
 

Until these problems are resolved a partnership between Democrats of all stripes, independents, and moderate Republicans is absolutely necessary, and such a partnership precludes the ideas of the more progressive wing of the Democratic Party. After these problems are dealt with, we can return to a more pluralistic competition of ideas and progressivism will likely then have its day. 

We said the same at the end of GWBs tenure.

The main problem is the Democrat party is not really one party anymore.  It is divided up

 

[Politician Spock]

In my opinion the whole system is broken. I have no evidence of it, but I'm convinced there are people who vote republican 100% of the time, but are registered as democrats so they can vote in the primaries to keep getting moderate liberals like Biden and Hillary on the democratic ticket. 

What we need is system where a vote in primaries for the winner of the primary is carried forward as your vote in the election and can't be changed. 

 

[roadkill1292]

Isn't the reality just that there are more moderate/centrist Dem voters than left wingers? And when Biden won South Carolina he emerged as the moderate to rally around.

I get that that upsets the left wingers. 

Maybe some lefties. Most of us realize that that there are indeed more moderates in the party than progressives and that this is a long term process. We'll get a few more converts with each passing year. And as I opined above, the big numbers of libs are on the way and in a decade or two they'll be punching their weight at the ballot boxes.

 

[roadkill1292]

In my opinion the whole system is broken. I have no evidence of it, but I'm convinced there are people who vote republican 100% of the time, but are registered as democrats so they can vote in the primaries to keep getting moderate liberals like Biden and Hillary on the democratic ticket. 

What we need is system where a vote in primaries for the winner of the primary is carried forward as your vote in the election and can't be changed. 

That's an interesting proposal; I promise to give it more thought. 

There are lots of things we could do to make primaries better as long as we assume that we have to have primaries. I'm not sure about that assumption.

 

[Zegras11]

In my opinion the whole system is broken. I have no evidence of it, but I'm convinced there are people who vote republican 100% of the time, but are registered as democrats so they can vote in the primaries to keep getting moderate liberals like Biden and Hillary on the democratic ticket. 

What we need is system where a vote in primaries for the winner of the primary is carried forward as your vote in the election and can't be changed. 

Agree on #1.   

Don't agree on #2 at all.   I've changed my vote several times over the years based on the presidential debates.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

An even better question is what will GOP voters do post Trump?  Do they really think Mike Pence is going to rally the base like Trump?

 

[Football Jones]

The left has a long, LONG road to hoe in this country. One big problem is the lack of up-&-comers in their party.

I'm not sure of the strategy I'd use if I were them (I'd have to think about it), but the Dems need a complete overhaul.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Isn't the reality just that there are more moderate/centrist Dem voters than left wingers? And when Biden won South Carolina he emerged as the moderate to rally around.

I get that that upsets the left wingers. 

Yes, but my expectation is that will change in the next few years.  We just haven’t quite hit the tipping point yet.
 

The two Republican Presidential nominees before Trump were both perceived to be from the more moderate wing and there was significant pushback from the grassroots of the GOP against both of them.  Then somewhere between 2012 and 2016 the Republican Party flipped and it became the Trump party.
 

The two most recent Democratic nominees (Hilary and Biden) are also considered to be moderates and received significant pushback from grassroots Dems.  The same pattern is likely here.  We will hit a tipping point and it will become a truly progressive party soon.

 

[dkp993]

I don’t think you can say what Democratic voters “chose” without discussing the alternatives. Biden was definitely not my choice at the outset, but by the time we started voting I didn’t view any of the other candidates as being  viable. 

When it was Obama vs. Hillary in 2008, in a race Democrats were heavily favored to win regardless of the candidate, you could say the party made a clear choice. This year, other than a pretty decisive rejection of Bernie, I’m not sure there was much of a decision to make. 

Didn’t the voters or delegates choose Biden and Sanders?

 

[dkp993]

Until these problems are resolved a partnership between Democrats of all stripes

This is the problem as I see it and where the GOP eats the DEMS lunch.  The GOP rally’s around each other, DEMs are to busy eating each other’s young (the Al Franken situation is a perfect example) .  Even now under this most extreme of time they can’t band together.  

 

[whoknew]

Yes, but my expectation is that will change in the next few years.  We just haven’t quite hit the tipping point yet.
 

The two Republican Presidential nominees before Trump were both perceived to be from the more moderate wing and there was significant pushback from the grassroots of the GOP against both of them.  Then somewhere between 2012 and 2016 the Republican Party flipped and it became the Trump party.
 

The two most recent Democratic nominees (Hilary and Biden) are also considered to be moderates and received significant pushback from grassroots Dems.  The same pattern is likely here.  We will hit a tipping point and it will become a truly progressive party soon.

That sucks. I hope you are wrong.

 

[dkp993]

It's scary how a lot of you think the party should be moving FURTHER left than it already has become.  The Democrats don't need to be going further left, they need to be moving back towards the middle.  Otherwise, I suggest they rename themselves something other than "Democrat", because that's NOT what they are becoming.

Also, Socialism isn't the answer either.  It's NEVER been the answer. EVER.  It's only a stepping stone away from Communism.

As a moderate and independent I agree with your first paragraph completely.  

Your second paragraph I just believe to be fear mongering talking points from the right mostly but that discussion is for another thread.  

 

[dkp993]

Who?  Who specifically could have "changed the face, direction and energy of the party" AND could have won the general election?

The bolded is an answer I can’t give with any certainty (no one can) as it didn’t happen and is largely opinion based but Amy, Pete or Yang would have absolutely met the first part of your question.  

 

[dkp993]

Joe Biden is taking the baton and running faster than Usain Bolt to move the Democratic Party forward. He’s up 10pts in the national polls. What a weird thread.

Thanks for you participation, it’s truly appreciated. 

 

[dkp993]

Isn't the reality just that there are more moderate/centrist Dem voters than left wingers? And when Biden won South Carolina he emerged as the moderate to rally around.

I get that that upsets the left wingers. 

I’m not a left-winger at all, far from it.  It angers me because there were other moderate candidates that would’ve done what I was talking about. Biden is nearly 80 and not the future the party needs imo.  

 

[timschochet]

The two Republican Presidential nominees before Trump were both perceived to be from the more moderate wing and there was significant pushback from the grassroots of the GOP against both of them.  Then somewhere between 2012 and 2016 the Republican Party flipped and it became the Trump Party 

This is true but the pushback didn’t come from traditional conservatives; it came from nativists and populists. So I don’t think it’s safe to compare that to what’s happening in the Democratic Party, which currently is a more traditional struggle between left and center. 

 

[Thunderlips]

Sorry, but that's just not true.

This whole nonsense about every time the government does something it's considered socialism is just that - nonsense.  It's what you guys say to fool the rubes into thinking they are already living under Socialism.

Better solution:  Why don't you guys just move out of the country to your favorite Socialist country?  We don't want that crap here.  It's deadly.

Disagree.

I love this country. I love the idea of the socialistic safety nets that the country has and hope to increase their range and efficiency.  Everyone benefits from them. It's a nice thing to have.  

 

[zftcg]

Didn’t the voters or delegates choose Biden and Sanders?

Yes, they obviously made a choice in terms of candidates. I just meant they punted on choosing a future of the party. I say that as someone who would have loved for a young, dynamic (ideally non white) leader to emerge and change the party’s trajectory. But when that didn’t happen, I viewed the best option as going with Biden, winning the election, and hopefully trying again in four years.