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Democrats need to wake the hell up (1 Viewer)

timschochet said:
I’m passionate about freedom of speech. I get being passionate about the 2nd. The ones on slavery, equality of treatment, absolutely. Brings me to tears, honestly. 
The 17th? Yawn. 
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Then why laugh?      As a jew (which I'm not but grew up in a Jewish home) would you yawn?    Reading that and remembering  my best friends grandfather telling my friend named weinstein about how important  the bill of rights are.   I feel fortunate to have read jewish text I have no idea what it meant...      " day day enu"  is what I remember  40 yeara later but I appreciate the depth of the tradition to Mr weinstein.   And your yawn would have met with an unfavorable stare.   I'll leave it there.    Maybe he would have been ok with your flipansy.    But I would have asked him about it.

 
quick-hands said:
Then why laugh?      As a jew (which I'm not but grew up in a Jewish home) would you yawn?    Reading that and remembering  my best friends grandfather telling my friend named weinstein about how important  the bill of rights are.   I feel fortunate to have read jewish text I have no idea what it meant...      " day day enu"  is what I remember  40 yeara later but I appreciate the depth of the tradition to Mr weinstein.   And your yawn would have met with an unfavorable stare.   I'll leave it there.    Maybe he would have been ok with your flipansy.    But I would have asked him about it.
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What does being a Jew have to do with how emotional I get about the 17th Amendment? Honestly confused. 

 
timschochet said:
What I wrote is that Biden wanted the infrastructure deal to be voted on in the first place without BBB and the progressives forced the two deals together, causing a several month delay. Nothing was gained by doing so and a lot of good messaging was lost. So I think it’s reasonable to blame progressives. 

Large parts of the infrastructure deal may be, as you put it, a corporate giveaway. But so what? Good things are going to happen as a result. We need to repair and replace significant parts of our infrastructure. Now much of that is going to happen. This is a great result. 
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Well now Manchin has made it explicit he got what he wanted and screw the BBB. Just like we on the left said he would when they decoupled these pieces. He just cemented the bloodbath of 22. Now I get your cool with that. But the US economic outlook was downgraded and the inflation fighting measures in the BBB will not happen. So enjoy.

 
NCCommish said:
Well now Manchin has made it explicit he got what he wanted and screw the BBB. Just like we on the left said he would when they decoupled these pieces. He just cemented the bloodbath of 22. Now I get your cool with that. But the US economic outlook was downgraded and the inflation fighting measures in the BBB will not happen. So enjoy.
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Inflation fighting measures in the BBB?  Oh boy.   :lol:

 
NCCommish said:
Well now Manchin has made it explicit he got what he wanted and screw the BBB. Just like we on the left said he would when they decoupled these pieces. He just cemented the bloodbath of 22. Now I get your cool with that. But the US economic outlook was downgraded and the inflation fighting measures in the BBB will not happen. So enjoy.
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I'd also need to see a link for this economic outlook.  The most recent ones published were before this announcement, so.

 
NCCommish said:
Well now Manchin has made it explicit he got what he wanted and screw the BBB. Just like we on the left said he would when they decoupled these pieces. He just cemented the bloodbath of 22. Now I get your cool with that. But the US economic outlook was downgraded and the inflation fighting measures in the BBB will not happen. So enjoy.
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That’s on the Dems for adding so many BS socialist like programs instead of keeping it focused. Good on Manchin. 

 
NCCommish said:
Well now Manchin has made it explicit he got what he wanted and screw the BBB. Just like we on the left said he would when they decoupled these pieces. He just cemented the bloodbath of 22. Now I get your cool with that. But the US economic outlook was downgraded and the inflation fighting measures in the BBB will not happen. So enjoy.
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I’m not cool with it. I wanted BBB. But I’m not  going to point fingers at Manchin or anyone else until we figure out what happened. Manchin was working with Biden, he was trying to bring the deal down to 1.5 trillion, but he was not trying to kill the deal. Now he says it’s a no. Something happened. What? 

I’m glad the infrastructure bill passed. That’s a big deal. 

 
GoBirds said:
That’s on the Dems for adding so many BS socialist like programs instead of keeping it focused. Good on Manchin. 
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Maybe. Again we don’t know if this is true anymore than we know it @NCCommishis correct. It seems like both of you are making assumptions based on your preheld political convictions. But again, one of you may be right. 

 
urbanhack said:
The Democratic Party worked harder to stop Bernie Sanders then they did to try and move Joe Manchin
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Seems to me they worked pretty hard to do both. 
And they worked hard to stop Bernie because most Democrats don’t believe in Bernie’s main agenda. 

 
timschochet said:
Yeah in recent days Biden was making this argument. Seems weak to me. 
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Didn't seem weak to the 19 Nobel Laureate Economists that said it would lower inflation. But what would they know?

 
timschochet said:
I’m not cool with it. I wanted BBB. But I’m not  going to point fingers at Manchin or anyone else until we figure out what happened. Manchin was working with Biden, he was trying to bring the deal down to 1.5 trillion, but he was not trying to kill the deal. Now he says it’s a no. Something happened. What? 

I’m glad the infrastructure bill passed. That’s a big deal. 
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No I'll point fingers just like the White House is. Manchin was never going to do this deal. 

 
GoBirds said:
That’s on the Dems for adding so many BS socialist like programs instead of keeping it focused. Good on Manchin. 
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Ah yes the old if we do anything for the people scream socialist at it. 

 
The Democrats don't have a majority in the Senate. It probably took Joe Manchin under 5 seconds to realize that if the Senate went 50-50 that he would become the most powerful Senator and possibly the most powerful office holder overall. If people don't understand how much that means to most Senators, they don't understand the dynamics of the Senate. Sinema gets it. Look at how many Senators she passed over this past year. They keep score. Mitch McConnell right now is like "damn that Joe Manchin he's good". Probably Cruz too. 

 
timschochet said:
Seems to me they worked pretty hard to do both. 
And they worked hard to stop Bernie because most Democrats don’t believe in Bernie’s main agenda. 
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No corporate America doesn't believe in it and their allies went to bat for them. Poll after poll shows not only is Bernie personally popular but his policies even find majority support on the right in many cases.

 
stlrams said:
 Stop playing games.  What’s the total number of illegal immigrants for 2020 vs 2021?
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I have no idea. I imagine there’s a lot more in 2021, because our economy recovered. Whenever we see an increase in illegals that is a good sign that American business is booming. They come for the jobs. 
 

But I’m not playing games. No matter how loose our border protection might be (and I’m for loosening it way more than it is now) it’s still not open. If you cross the border illegally, you run the risk of being shot, or arrested, or mistreated by the coyotes that took you, or simply disappearing. It’s an incredibly courageous act and I wouldn’t have the guts to try it. I don’t know how my grandparents had the guts. 

 
NCCommish said:
Didn't seem weak to the 19 Nobel Laureate Economists that said it would lower inflation. But what would they know?
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If only it were that simple

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-17/top-economists-see-biden-s-spending-plan-adding-to-inflation

Having taken grad level Econ and being in business for over 20 years, the guys in the Bloomberg article are more in line with my belief.  The point is though it's not as simple as a talking point. 

The onus should be on those saying it would lower inflation however because their assertions are against the basic tenets of economics.  You don't inject capital and expect lower inflation, that's a mirror opposite of basic principles.  Those guys surely have studied more in depth than I have, but we can all line up experts who support either side of it.  I just don't buy what they're selling because it makes no sense to me and plenty of noted economists see it just the opposite as those the Biden administration likes to run out there to back their agenda.

 
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Shula-holic said:
If only it were that simple

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-17/top-economists-see-biden-s-spending-plan-adding-to-inflation

Having taken grad level Econ and being in business for over 20 years, the guys in the Bloomberg article are more in line with my belief.  The point is though it's not as simple as a talking point. 

The onus should be on those saying it would lower inflation however because their assertions are against the basic tenets of economics.  You don't inject capital and expect lower inflation, that's a mirror opposite of basic principles.  Those guys surely have studied more in depth than I have, but we can all line up experts who support either side of it.  I just don't buy what they're selling because it makes no sense to me and plenty of noted economists see it just the opposite as those the Biden administration likes to run out there to back their agenda.
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I think the Bloomberg guys and the Nobel prize winners all agree that long term inflation would decrease. Adding to the supply of labor will help create more goods. 
 

These are some superstars:  George Akerlof, Sir Angus Deaton, Peter Diamond, Robert Engle, Oliver Hart, Daniel Kahneman, Eric S. Maskin, Daniel McFadden, Paul Milgrom, Roger Myerson, Edmund S. Phelps, Paul Romer, William Sharpe, Robert Shiller, Christopher Sims, Robert Solow, and Joseph Stiglitz

 
Rich Conway said:
Ditto Jan 6 hearings.  If they turn up nothing, the public won't care.  The public didn't care when 247 Benghazi hearings turned up nothing.  There's more than a decent chance these hearings will show that sitting GOP representatives helped plan it and/or knew in advance exactly what would happen.
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Ha no. 

 
Shula-holic said:
If only it were that simple

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-17/top-economists-see-biden-s-spending-plan-adding-to-inflation

Having taken grad level Econ and being in business for over 20 years, the guys in the Bloomberg article are more in line with my belief.  The point is though it's not as simple as a talking point. 

The onus should be on those saying it would lower inflation however because their assertions are against the basic tenets of economics.  You don't inject capital and expect lower inflation, that's a mirror opposite of basic principles.  Those guys surely have studied more in depth than I have, but we can all line up experts who support either side of it.  I just don't buy what they're selling because it makes no sense to me and plenty of noted economists see it just the opposite as those the Biden administration likes to run out there to back their agenda.
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I have no idea if it’s a good argument or not. When I called it a weak argument earlier, what I meant was that the Democrats shouldn’t make arguments that play into Republican hands. So if you’re going to talk about BBB, you don’t mention inflation or taxes, because you will NEVER win those arguments. Instead you talk about child credits and getting the price of insulin down to an affordable level, and climate change, because those are the arguments that Republicans will never win. To cut a long story short: play your game, not theirs. 

 
Nugget said:
I think the Bloomberg guys and the Nobel prize winners all agree that long term inflation would decrease. Adding to the supply of labor will help create more goods. 
 

These are some superstars:  George Akerlof, Sir Angus Deaton, Peter Diamond, Robert Engle, Oliver Hart, Daniel Kahneman, Eric S. Maskin, Daniel McFadden, Paul Milgrom, Roger Myerson, Edmund S. Phelps, Paul Romer, William Sharpe, Robert Shiller, Christopher Sims, Robert Solow, and Joseph Stiglitz
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I don't agree with that interpretation of their sentiment.  Below is a direct quote:

The bill will probably increase demand over the next few years, Elmendorf said. “That will tend to push up GDP and employment and inflation -- which is not the policy impulse we need right now,” he added.

 
timschochet said:
I have no idea if it’s a good argument or not. When I called it a weak argument earlier, what I meant was that the Democrats shouldn’t make arguments that play into Republican hands. So if you’re going to talk about BBB, you don’t mention inflation or taxes, because you will NEVER win those arguments. Instead you talk about child credits and getting the price of insulin down to an affordable level, and climate change, because those are the arguments that Republicans will never win. To cut a long story short: play your game, not theirs. 
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I get what you're saying but I think the inflation points were thrust upon them, not by the choice of the Biden administration.  We all see the inflation in our day to day lives, there's no way they could discuss such a large spending package without inflation being part of the dialogue.

 
timschochet said:
I have no idea if it’s a good argument or not. When I called it a weak argument earlier, what I meant was that the Democrats shouldn’t make arguments that play into Republican hands. So if you’re going to talk about BBB, you don’t mention inflation or taxes, because you will NEVER win those arguments. Instead you talk about child credits and getting the price of insulin down to an affordable level, and climate change, because those are the arguments that Republicans will never win. To cut a long story short: play your game, not theirs. 
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Dude.  Dems don't live in a vacuum.  Not like they get to control the entire narrative.  Whether the dems mention inflation or taxes or not, republicans will, and have.  They tried to do the "this bill is so good for you" believing it was what the average American wants to hear.  And they don't.  They just don't.  Do Americans care about climate change? Sure..Until it hits their wallets.  Then all of a sudden it isn't as important as it was before.  If they can control what they give to combat climate change, fine--but once Uncle Sam takes from them to address it, then everything changes.   Republicans know this.  They understand the fundamental issues average American families deal with day to day.  And while climate change is a nice buzz word, it doesn't pay the mortgage.  

 
supermike80 said:
Dude.  Dems don't live in a vacuum.  Not like they get to control the entire narrative.  Whether the dems mention inflation or taxes or not, republicans will, and have.  They tried to do the "this bill is so good for you" believing it was what the average American wants to hear.  And they don't.  They just don't.  Do Americans care about climate change? Sure..Until it hits their wallets.  Then all of a sudden it isn't as important as it was before.  If they can control what they give to combat climate change, fine--but once Uncle Sam takes from them to address it, then everything changes.   Republicans know this.  They understand the fundamental issues average American families deal with day to day.  And while climate change is a nice buzz word, it doesn't pay the mortgage.  
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Everything you wrote here is true. 
It doesn’t contradict my point. While you’re correct that Democrats can’t control the narrative, they can control their own narrative. Which means, in terms of BBB: let the Republicans talk about inflation. You talk about other stuff. When you talk about inflation, even if you have an argument to make, you still lose, because you’re talking about it. So don’t initiate that conversation. 

Of course this is all a moot point now that BBB is dead. But the principle will still apply in future debates? Will Democrats stop being stupid? I have my doubts. 

 
timschochet said:
Everything you wrote here is true. 
It doesn’t contradict my point. While you’re correct that Democrats can’t control the narrative, they can control their own narrative. Which means, in terms of BBB: let the Republicans talk about inflation. You talk about other stuff. When you talk about inflation, even if you have an argument to make, you still lose, because you’re talking about it. So don’t initiate that conversation. 

Of course this is all a moot point now that BBB is dead. But the principle will still apply in future debates? Will Democrats stop being stupid? I have my doubts. 
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Youre missing the point.  The dems are doing this but it isn't working because the American people aren't buying it.  They have bills to pay and kids to raise.   Clinate change isn't high on their list of items they want to give their hard earned $$ to.   The talk from the left was a constant barrage of how the BBB was going to make their lives better. 

 
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22 Dems leaving or retiring.

Florida Rep. Stephanie Murphy announced Monday that she will not seek a fourth term in Congress, the latest in a rapid series of retirements within the Democratic ranks that suggest momentum is moving heavily against the party as it seeks to hold on to its razor-thin majority next November.

Murphy's decision came less than 24 hours after New Jersey Rep. Albio Sires said he would be retiring at the end of this Congress. And, just before the Sires' news, California Rep. Alan Lowenthal said he, too, would be stepping aside. 

All together, there are now 22 Democrats retiring or running for other offices this election cycle as opposed to just 11 Republicans doing the same.

Two years ago, just nine Democrats had announced their retirement plans at this point of the election while 24 Republicans had done the same, according to CNN's political unit.

While there will always be some amount of attrition in a chamber as large as the House, the "who" is leaving should worry Democrats.

 
Recent poll results from Marist.  Unsurprisingly the red/blue divide is disparate, with 87% of Dems approving of the job Biden is doing compared to just 4% of Republicans.  The number that Biden (and Dems in general) is the independent voters.  only 29% approve while 66% dissapprove.  65% of Latinos disapprove, 67% of white non-college educated too.  That's bloodbath territory.

 
unckeyherb said:
Recent poll results from Marist.  Unsurprisingly the red/blue divide is disparate, with 87% of Dems approving of the job Biden is doing compared to just 4% of Republicans.  The number that Biden (and Dems in general) is the independent voters.  only 29% approve while 66% dissapprove.  65% of Latinos disapprove, 67% of white non-college educated too.  That's bloodbath territory.
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87% of Dems approve of the job Biden is doing? Damn. I was told they were the smart, educated ones.

 
dkp993 said:
I’m just glad we dodged that bullet that would have ended us as a country.  26 trillion in debt.  No problem. 28 trillion, end of the country.  Whew, In that case Manchin just might go down as the most important man in history, even surpassing Jesus.  
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I’m always amazed with the education argument

K-12 is American Capitalism

Pre K -12 is Socialism/Marxism. 
 

Never trust a 4 year old. 

 
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Herb said:
87% of Dems approve of the job Biden is doing? Damn. I was told they were the smart, educated ones.
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It is weird, in these poles they only post the numbers for non-college educated white voters, they never post the numbers for non college educated blacks or hispanics.

 
Summer Wheat said:
It is weird, in these poles they only post the numbers for non-college educated white voters, they never post the numbers for non college educated blacks or hispanics.
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Yeah - this is a specific example where it’s obvious the bias and will cause people to ignore the overall message.  That would be good information to have.

 
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