What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Devin Hester HOFer? (1 Viewer)

Is he a HOFer?

  • Yes

    Votes: 29 39.2%
  • No

    Votes: 45 60.8%

  • Total voters
    74
CalBear said:
Fair-caught kicks aren't included in kick return yardage.

And all of this stuff is measurable; net punting results, for example. Hester did not have a significantly bigger impact on his teams' success than other good returners, by any measurable statistic. Chicago led the league in (lowest) net punting yardage against only once during Hester's career (2010). Most of the time they were in the middle of the pack. 
I'm aware that fair catches don't count towards his or the team's average. What I'm saying is the sample for Hester is heavily skewed towards punts from that midfield area, where most returns are either fair caught or extremely well covered.  If teams had kicked it to him from all areas of the field then the average per return would be much higher. Deion and Desean Jackson are the only other returners I can think of that teams kicked away from, although I'm sure there are a couple more. It skews the stats when the vast majority of returners field punts from everywhere. 

Net punting against is an imperfect stat at best. It's pretty hard to look at avg starting field position because of the effect the defense plays in forcing the punt. Certainly the number of TDs and big returns can be a measuring stick. Gross yardage doesn't work because TEAMS DIDN'T PUNT TO HIM a lot of the time. 

He was a threat above any other returner in the modern era. 

 
I'm aware that fair catches don't count towards his or the team's average. What I'm saying is the sample for Hester is heavily skewed towards punts from that midfield area, where most returns are either fair caught or extremely well covered.  If teams had kicked it to him from all areas of the field then the average per return would be much higher. Deion and Desean Jackson are the only other returners I can think of that teams kicked away from, although I'm sure there are a couple more. It skews the stats when the vast majority of returners field punts from everywhere. 

Net punting against is an imperfect stat at best. It's pretty hard to look at avg starting field position because of the effect the defense plays in forcing the punt. Certainly the number of TDs and big returns can be a measuring stick. Gross yardage doesn't work because TEAMS DIDN'T PUNT TO HIM a lot of the time. 

He was a threat above any other returner in the modern era. 
Look, it's pretty simple. Teams get in fourth down situations. Sometimes they punt. When they punt, there's a net difference between the place that they started and the place that the other team gets the ball. That difference is the only thing that can possibly be attributed to the punt returner. If the other teams are kicking it out of bounds, if they're shanking it to avoid kicking to the punt returner, that will show up in the net difference. 

And the net difference with Hester returning punts was not anything special. Even in the season where Hester's presence had the most impact, Chicago didn't do close to as well as, for example, KC in Dante Hall's 2003. (Hester 2010 34.1 net, Dante 2003 33.3 net). And the rest of Hester's seasons, Chicago's net was 2-5 yards worse than that.

But let's attribute all of that benefit to Hester. The league average net in 2010 was 39.1, so Hester was giving the Bears an additional 5 yards per punt. They were punted to 88 times (slightly above the league average, by the way), so Hester may have given them an additional 440 yards over the course of the season compared to an average returner.

That's pretty good, but for the best season of his career, it's not much. It's certainly not HOF worthy.

 
I'm a Bear fan and Hester fan, obviously.  No.  He was great at one thing which did not really translate to offensive production.  I gotta figure if players like Barry Sanders, Walter Payton, Jerry Rice.... only focused on PR/KR, they would have dominated there too.  There are too many great players not in the HOF to justify a guy like Hester who was below average at any offensive skill position and only excelled at essentially one thing.  

 
CalBear said:
The best year of his career (2010), he had seven TDs (3 return, 4 receiving).

Seven.

That placed him tied for 21st in the league that year for TDs by a WR, tied with Mike Sims-Walker and Jacoby Ford, among others. He was behind Lance Moore, Austin Collie, Mario Manningham, and Steve Johnson, among others.

That was his best season. In six years of his 11-year career, he scored zero return TDs.

In total, he had over 600 kick and punt returns, and scored 19 TDs in 11 years. He had one post-season return TD. That's better than other kick and punt returners but it just doesn't indicate a huge impact on his team's success.


 I agree with some of your points Calbear, and some of what the others are saying.

But its best we try and consider stats "in a vacuum" as they say, but its never going to be like that.

Just like I mentioned with Gore, if he had 2 Super Bowl rings, then everyone would be screaming and laughing at how he "couldn't possibly miss the HOF".

 But people just don't look at things like that, and they put entirely too much emphasis on winning. (SB and post season credentials and stats) I think any and all stats and contributions should be taken into greater consideration, not just emphasizing the big moments and SB teams.

The argument someone brought up about Edelman was a good one.  Therein lies the rub. The rings bring the attention to him, and ALSO THE CALIBER OF SQUAD HE HAS BEEN ON.

Let us not forget, some of the teams Hester has played for have been pretty damn bad.  He just hasn't played on many great teams, although ironically enough, the best team he ever played on, might have been when he was a rookie in 2006 and they eventually lost in the SB.

 Check this out    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devin_Hester

Reading about his 2006 and 2007 seasons is pretty interesting, and might make you think about how teams tried to avoid him with kicks. If anything, it makes me think he is more deserving of a spot in the HOF. But alas, he might not ever get in, due to the very small number of people they vote in.  At the very least, he should be in the conversation, and to not think he is borderline at a minimum...... then that should eliminate a bunch of guys that may already be in, or are on their way in.

 TZM

 
I've looked at some numbers, and the quantitative case for Hester is surprisingly strong.

As a starting point: how much is any single player, who is not a quarterback, worth to his team? How much would the spread move if he was out? The answers that I've seen mostly max out around a point or two, maybe 2.5. This article from 2013 has 7 non-QBs worth 1 point or more, led by Adrian Peterson at 2.5 points and Calvin Johnson at 1.5 (it further claims "no non-quarterback has been more valuable [than Peterson] in the last 25 years — with only Barry Sanders equaling Peterson’s point spread effect"). This article from 2016 claims that the most valuable non-QBs are only worth 0.5-1.0 points, and that only about 6 players are even worth that much. This article says the spread moved 2 points (from 4 to 6) when Adrian Peterson was out and this one says it moved 1 point (from 6 to 7) when Gronk was out. ProFootballLogic has estimates for all players for the 2017 season and lists 6 non-QBs at 1 point or more, led by Gronk at 1.63 and Antonio Brown at 1.21.

Now, how many points per game was Hester worth? Let's focus on the 6 consecutive seasons 2006-2011, which covers his prime (though he had some ups and downs in there).

Football Outsiders special teams stats, averaging across those 6 years, have the Bears punt return unit worth 10.56 points above average, their kick return unit worth 11.16 points above average, and their "hidden" special teams value worth 12.45 points above average. "HIDDEN represents the advantage teams have received from elements of special teams generally out of their control: opposing field goals, kickoff distance, and punt distance" - for these Bears teams that was probably mostly due to how other teams game-planned for their return units. Add those three numbers up and the 2006-11 Bears return units were worth 34.2 points per season above the average team, or 2.1 points per game. That's more than the value of just about any single non-quarterback player, with possible exceptions for Adrian Peterson and Barry Sanders in their prime.

Devin Hester wasn't responsible for all of that - he shared kick return duties with Danieal Manning and Johnny Knox, and the entire Bears special teams were really strong under Dave Toub. If we give Hester credit for 3/4 of the team's punt return value, 1/3 of the kick return value, and 2/3 of the hidden value, that would make Hester worth 1.25 points per game above the average returner. Which would make him the 6th, 1st, or 2nd most valuable non-QB in the NFL during a season, if we buy one of the three sources of player point spread value linked above. (Actually, it might make him worth a little more than that, since these Hester stats compare him to the average starting returner and the spread values compare players to their replacement-level backup.)

Is 1.25 points per game of value from Hester plausible? Here's another way to look at it. Hester had 19 return TDs during those 6 years (12 regular season punt returns, 5 regular season kickoff returns, 1 regular season missed field goal return, and 1 playoff kickoff return). So he scored 114 points in 97 games. But a typical return TD is worth more like 5 points to the offense (since they're using up their possession to get the score), and an average unit would've gotten about 4 TDs with the same number of returns, and let's say that an average returner with the Bears special teams would have gotten 6. So that leaves Hester's TDs as being worth something like 0.67 points per game more than what the Bears would've gotten with an average returner (or 0.77 more than what an average return team would've done).

0.67 is just the touchdowns, not the field position from the returns and the non-returns. And the field position gain seems pretty big too. Take a look at this 2007 Bears-Eagles game, for instance. The Eagles kicked off 5 times and punted 4 times. Devin Hester was not able to return any of those 9 kicks, but he had a huge impact on the game, worth something like 75 yards of field position. After the 5 kickoffs, the Bears' average starting field position was their own 34: one KO went out of bounds and the other 4 were kicked short and fielded by the up-man before they reached the CHI 20 yard-line. The Eagles' 4 punts went for 21 yards (no return), 41 yards (touchback), 27 yards (no return), and 43 yards (no return, inside 20), with an average of 28.0 yards net (33.0 yards gross) and only 1 ending up inside the 20. A typical punt nets around 38.5 yards, and typical starting field position after a kickoff is around a team's own 27, so kicking away from Hester cost the Eagles something like 40 yards of field position on punts and 35 yards of field position on kickoffs. The Bears offense was able to generate 5 field goal attempts and 1 touchdown, and they won the game 19-16.

That's just one game, but it's hardly unique. The Bears led the league in best average starting field position in 4 out of those 6 seasons, on average starting a possession 2.4 yards ahead of the average team (which is a 29 yard advantage each game - probably worth more than 1 point). Devin Hester played a large role in that, and his touchdowns don't count towards it at all (though of course the defense and the rest of the special teams also played significant roles).

So 1.25 points of value per game from Hester seems plausible to me, based on a combination of the flashy plays and the sacrifices that other teams made to avoid those flashy plays (and ignoring his contributions on offense). That would put him in pretty exclusive territory, for non-QBs, according to all of the sources that I've found on that topic.

There are also some knocks on Hester: this is only a 6-year stretch (his other 4 seasons as a primary returner were nothing spectacular), he fumbled a lot, Toub and the rest of the Bears' return units deserve a good chunk of credit. But I don't think his HoF case is easy to dismiss, even just focusing on the numbers.

 
Believe I read most of the comments. I did see "kick it out of bounds" commented. I guess my comment is for those who respect and understand Ray Guy's role. Oakland had a pretty good Defense and not every Team is just gonna march the whole field. I myself believe its demoralizing to start at say the 15-yard line as opposed to maybe the 30-35 w/ return yds. There was also more than a few inside the ten in some great games. Can you imagine the HC dismay at kicking to Hester? Great we just Scored, oh wait a minute. Or They won't get good field position, while maybe they will...

Team sport so you may wish to consider the advantage achieved had he played for another Team. Can ya picture Coach Belichick at the podium? Guys, you need to realize its probably the first time our Team has started anywhere past the 20 yd line in quite a few games. It isn't often we run that type plays even in practice, much fewer games. Did Hester contribute to the Overall of the game? You do understand its only reason some cheered if not sole reason for watching. :2cents:

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top