Did JFK Cause the Cuban Missile Crisis (1 Viewer)

[Saints-Man]

...What about training troops? What about the CIA engaging in psychological warfare against the North?

Training troops comes under the education part. The CIA trained the South Vietnamese military on torture techniques, but to my knowledge there is no clear evidence that CIA performed the interrogation themselves. I think that is what you mean by pyschological warfare. It is not war until one of our guys kills one their guys. Not to be flippant, but before then, it is just business. Also, if that is the case, then we have been in a permanent state of war since the CIA was founded. That includes every president, including the peace loving Jimmy Carter.

 

[bueno]

...What about training troops? What about the CIA engaging in psychological warfare against the North?

Training troops comes under the education part. The CIA trained the South Vietnamese military on torture techniques, but to my knowledge there is no clear evidence that CIA performed the interrogation themselves. I think that is what you mean by pyschological warfare. It is not war until one of our guys kills one their guys. Not to be flippant, but before then, it is just business. Also, if that is the case, then we have been in a permanent state of war since the CIA was founded. That includes every president, including the peace loving Jimmy Carter.

Or one of thier guys kills one of ours?

 

[Saints-Man]

...What about training troops? What about the CIA engaging in psychological warfare against the North?

Training troops comes under the education part. The CIA trained the South Vietnamese military on torture techniques, but to my knowledge there is no clear evidence that CIA performed the interrogation themselves. I think that is what you mean by pyschological warfare. It is not war until one of our guys kills one their guys. Not to be flippant, but before then, it is just business. Also, if that is the case, then we have been in a permanent state of war since the CIA was founded. That includes every president, including the peace loving Jimmy Carter.

Or one of thier guys kills one of ours?

Not in all cases, so please explain what situation you are discussing.

 

[bueno]

...What about training troops? What about the CIA engaging in psychological warfare against the North?

Training troops comes under the education part. The CIA trained the South Vietnamese military on torture techniques, but to my knowledge there is no clear evidence that CIA performed the interrogation themselves. I think that is what you mean by pyschological warfare. It is not war until one of our guys kills one their guys. Not to be flippant, but before then, it is just business. Also, if that is the case, then we have been in a permanent state of war since the CIA was founded. That includes every president, including the peace loving Jimmy Carter.

Or one of thier guys kills one of ours?

Not in all cases, so please explain what situation you are discussing.

If one of our guys kills one of their guiys, it is war. Is the converse not true then?

 

[Saints-Man]

...What about training troops? What about the CIA engaging in psychological warfare against the North?

Training troops comes under the education part. The CIA trained the South Vietnamese military on torture techniques, but to my knowledge there is no clear evidence that CIA performed the interrogation themselves. I think that is what you mean by pyschological warfare. It is not war until one of our guys kills one their guys. Not to be flippant, but before then, it is just business. Also, if that is the case, then we have been in a permanent state of war since the CIA was founded. That includes every president, including the peace loving Jimmy Carter.

Or one of thier guys kills one of ours?

Not in all cases, so please explain what situation you are discussing.

If one of our guys kills one of their guiys, it is war. Is the converse not true then?

For the shooter, yes. Not neccesarily the shootee.

 

[bueno]

...What about training troops? What about the CIA engaging in psychological warfare against the North?

Training troops comes under the education part. The CIA trained the South Vietnamese military on torture techniques, but to my knowledge there is no clear evidence that CIA performed the interrogation themselves. I think that is what you mean by pyschological warfare. It is not war until one of our guys kills one their guys. Not to be flippant, but before then, it is just business. Also, if that is the case, then we have been in a permanent state of war since the CIA was founded. That includes every president, including the peace loving Jimmy Carter.

Or one of thier guys kills one of ours?

Not in all cases, so please explain what situation you are discussing.

If one of our guys kills one of their guiys, it is war. Is the converse not true then?

For the shooter, yes. Not neccesarily the shootee.

Let's start with an example:USS Pueblo: Seaman Duane Hodges

 

[Saints-Man]

Sorry Bueno, I am unfamiliar with that situation. I will research and answer you later.

 

[bueno]

Sorry Bueno, I am unfamiliar with that situation. I will research and answer you later.

Fair enough. How about air strikes in Iraq in 2002? We were fired on and retaliated. There were Iraqi casualties.

 

[Chadstroma]

From what I've read, his weak performance during his first summit with Kruschev made the Sovs think they could get away with putting missles in Cuba. Kennedy's fine performance during the crisis itself is seen by a lot of scholars as his rite of passage.

I have read this also. This is what I was referring in the other thread, Chadstroma.

Responded to that. It is highly speculative to begin with and in my opinion faulty in that if you carry through the assumption that Kruschev put missiles in Cuba because he believed JFK to be weak willed, then why would he back down when JFK put up the blockade? If the preset belief was that he was weak, why would they not believe this was just a bluff?

 

[Chadstroma]

pretty sure russia wanted to put missiles on cuba...and thaaaaaaats what caused it.

Not true. Castro had no intention of letting the USSR do this until the Bay of Pigs invasion.

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally? Your source for this?

 

[Chadstroma]

pretty sure russia wanted to put missiles on cuba...and thaaaaaaats what caused it.

That is not historically accurate. Before the Bay of Pigs, Cuba was not allied with the USSR. Castro was steering a path for Cuba clear of USSR influence.

When did I say anything about what Cuba wanted or anything about prior to the Bay of Pigs?

Nothing, and that is where you are in error. No Bay of Pigs, no missles in Cuba, no matter what the USSR wanted. This is a discussion about the causes of CMC.

You have a huge leap of faith to make in your position. You are saying that you know for a fact that Castro wanted nothing to do with the Soviets until the Bay of Pigs brought him to the light. I have never read anything that seems to indicate this and it would take something from Castro or his inner circle saying as such to make me take up that same position, I for one am not into giant leaps.

 

[Chadstroma]

Also, the Vietnam War started under his watch as well.

No it didn't.

It is true that the Vietnam War started before JFK's term began. However, he is the first US president to send military troops to Vietnam, so it is accurate to say that American military involvement in the Vietnam War(prior to that, we only had advisors, not US troops) began on his watch.It is accurate to say that American involvement began under Eisenhower, but American military involvement began under JFK. Military involvement = America's entry into the war.

Eisenhower sent in military advisors...

Eisenhower sent military advisors, but not troops. The implementation of troops makes it war, not advisors.

What uniforms were those military advisors wearing again?

I am not really sure. But what I do know is they never engaged anyone in an armed conflict. They were there to train Vietam citizens on how to use guns and help with military strategy. Education and consultation is not war. Military troops firing guns and missles, lobbing grenades, and engaging in hand-to-hand combat is war. That happened under JFK. The former happened under Eisenhower.

Pick up Ton Clancy's 'Battle Ready' which follows Gen Zinni. It spends much time going over his time as a U.S. Military Advisor in Vietnam. Although his involvement was later in the war it will give you a better idea of what they did. To say that did 'education and consultation' I think is insulting to those who served that function.

 

[Saints-Man]

Chadstroma, this comes down to a basic question.

Had JFK not ordered the Bay of Pigs invasion(and subsequently flubbed it), would Castro have allowed the missles deployed in Cuba? The links I have cited indicate no. If you have different information, please present it.

Most historians I have read also feel that without the Bay of Pigs invasion, there are no missles in Cuba.

All of the other isses are just tangents to this basic issue.

 

[Charlie Steiner]

From what I've read, his weak performance during his first summit with Kruschev made the Sovs think they could get away with putting missles in Cuba. Kennedy's fine performance during the crisis itself is seen by a lot of scholars as his rite of passage.

I think it was actually Kruschev's response to the US putting missiles in Europe and Turkey that prompted them to return the favor in setting up missiles in Cuba.

I think this point alone made Russian missiles in Cuba inevitable. Castro may have said he wanted his Communist country to be separate from the Soviets, but Soviet involvement in Cuba was also inevitable. Although this isn't a great parallel, it's sort of like our "involvement" with Israel; they represent our political ideology in a region where democracy is scarce, so likewise was Communist Cuba a representative of Soviet ideology in their enemies' region.I think ultimately it would have been a sign of Soviet weakness to not try to gain a strategic advantage via Cuba. Maybe the Bay of Pigs accelerated the timing, but I can't believe the Soviets wouldn't have tried it eventually anyway.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Yankee23Fan
Posted Today, 01:16 PM

We haven't had a Cuban Missle Crisis debate in a long time. Maybe tim can fire that one up next.

 

[Yankee23Fan]