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Do you reach in the first round? (1 Viewer)

Do you reach in the first round or stick to ADP?

  • Yes..I reach

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  • No..I NEVER reach

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ImTheScientist

Footballguy
With 50% of 1st round picks being busts do you reach for the player you feel most confidence in even though his ADP suggests he should be picked later? In the first round of this years draft I see a lot of RB's that have never finished TOP 12 but are put in the TOP 10 because of potential. It seems more times than not these are the guys that BUST year to year.

So at what point do you reach for a player if you are uncertain you would get him at you next pick? Or do you just stick with the ADP and general consensus and pray that you can get your true desired player at your next pick?

 
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With 50% of 1st round picks being busts do you reach for the player you feel most confidence in even though his ADP suggests he should be picked later? In the first round of this years draft I see a lot of RB's that have never finished TOP 10 but are put in the TOP 10 because of potential. It seems more times than not these are the guys that BUST year to year. So at what point do you reach for a player if you are uncertain you would get him at you next pick? Or do you just stick with the ADP and general consensus and pray that you can get your true desired player at your next pick?
I wouldn't say I reach, but I will definitely take a guy a number of slots ahead of the consensus rank if I feel he's a safer pick. My motto is that leagues are never won in the first round, but can definitely be lost.
 
I've heard that 50% of NFL first rounders bust, but 50% of fantasy 1st rounders?
I think it should be restated - in general, if you look at the pre-season ADP top 12, about half those guys won't be in the top 12 at year end. This is assuming a 12 team redraft. History does bear this out.
 
I've heard that 50% of NFL first rounders bust, but 50% of fantasy 1st rounders?
I think it should be restated - in general, if you look at the pre-season ADP top 12, about half those guys won't be in the top 12 at year end. This is assuming a 12 team redraft. History does bear this out.
This is why I have brought up. I usually do not stray too far from the ADP/Expert consensus but I think this year Im just going to go w/ my gut. My league usually sticks pretty close to the ADP in the first 2 rounds, but I think I may stray.
 
Why reach for a guy in the first when he could be had in the second?
I think he is talking about a guy that you aren't going to be able to get if you pass him up. Or if you like 2 guys whose ADP is lower second and you take those two instead of the "safe" pick.
 
I almost always go for a safer pick in the first round. I want a proven veteran that has not had a lot of injury problems.

 
I've heard that 50% of NFL first rounders bust, but 50% of fantasy 1st rounders?
Here's what the 2005 first round looked like. I included the player's season-ending VBD rank in parenthesis. I'm also arbitrarily declaring anything below the 50th best finish in terms of VBD to be a "bust".1. RB LaDainian Tomlinson, SD/10 (#3)2. RB Shaun Alexander, Sea/8 (#1)3. RB Priest Holmes, KC/5 (#121)4. RB Edgerrin James, Ind/8 (#5)5. QB Peyton Manning, Ind/8 (#34)6. RB Willis McGahee, Buf/9 (#38)7. RB Deuce McAllister, NO/10 (#293)8. RB Domanick Davis, Hou/3 (#45)9. RB Clinton Portis, Was/3 (#7)10. RB Jamal Lewis, Bal/3 (#87)11. RB Corey Dillon, NE/7 (#43)12. RB Kevin Jones, Det/3 (#120)4/12 finished in the top 12. 8/12 finished in the top 50. 33% bust rate.2006:1. LaDainian Tomlinson SD/3 (#1)2. Shaun Alexander Sea/5 (#105)3. Larry Johnson KC/3 (#2)4. Tiki Barber NYG/4 (#9)5. Steven Jackson StL/7 (#3)6. Edgerrin James Ari/9 (#60)7. Ronnie Brown Mia/8 (#81)8. Rudi Johnson Cin/5 (#26)9. LaMont Jordan Oak/3 (#312)10. Peyton Manning Ind/6 (#4)11. Cadillac Williams TB/4 (#171)12. Clinton Portis Was/8 (#154)5/12 finished in the top 12. 6/12 finished in the top 50. 50% bust rate.I know I've done this in the past for 2003 and 2004, as well, but I can't find the post where I did it or any links to 2003/2004 ADP data anymore. Anyway, the conclusion that I came to was that top-5 picks were remarkably secure (both of the past two seasons, they've only had an 80% bust rate, which seems about right compared to history), but after that everything was a crapshoot (generally 50% bust rate or worse).
 
Yeah, if Im sitting at the 6-8th spot and Im looking at a whole slew of options I wouldnt balk at the idea of drafting Rudi. He's going to be in the top ten, maybe not top five but he'll definitely get you your points.

 
I've heard that 50% of NFL first rounders bust, but 50% of fantasy 1st rounders?
Here's what the 2005 first round looked like. I included the player's season-ending VBD rank in parenthesis. I'm also arbitrarily declaring anything below the 50th best finish in terms of VBD to be a "bust".1. RB LaDainian Tomlinson, SD/10 (#3)2. RB Shaun Alexander, Sea/8 (#1)3. RB Priest Holmes, KC/5 (#121)4. RB Edgerrin James, Ind/8 (#5)5. QB Peyton Manning, Ind/8 (#34)6. RB Willis McGahee, Buf/9 (#38)7. RB Deuce McAllister, NO/10 (#293)8. RB Domanick Davis, Hou/3 (#45)9. RB Clinton Portis, Was/3 (#7)10. RB Jamal Lewis, Bal/3 (#87)11. RB Corey Dillon, NE/7 (#43)12. RB Kevin Jones, Det/3 (#120)4/12 finished in the top 12. 8/12 finished in the top 50. 33% bust rate.2006:1. LaDainian Tomlinson SD/3 (#1)2. Shaun Alexander Sea/5 (#105)3. Larry Johnson KC/3 (#2)4. Tiki Barber NYG/4 (#9)5. Steven Jackson StL/7 (#3)6. Edgerrin James Ari/9 (#60)7. Ronnie Brown Mia/8 (#81)8. Rudi Johnson Cin/5 (#26)9. LaMont Jordan Oak/3 (#312)10. Peyton Manning Ind/6 (#4)11. Cadillac Williams TB/4 (#171)12. Clinton Portis Was/8 (#154)5/12 finished in the top 12. 6/12 finished in the top 50. 50% bust rate.I know I've done this in the past for 2003 and 2004, as well, but I can't find the post where I did it or any links to 2003/2004 ADP data anymore. Anyway, the conclusion that I came to was that top-5 picks were remarkably secure (both of the past two seasons, they've only had an 80% bust rate, which seems about right compared to history), but after that everything was a crapshoot (generally 50% bust rate or worse).
:thumbup: Nice job..IMO, the bust rate you present should be higher - anyone picked in the top 12 that finishes outside the top 36 IMO should be considered a bust (as they are giving your fourth round value or worse for a first round pick).Edit: I really base this on RB's when I talk about this issue. If you include Manning in the discussion, you bring VBD into play and this is a separate topic altogether.
 
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Until people can accurately predict injuries, a lot of this is based mostly on luck in terms of who "busts." By my count, 9 of the 14 players missed a fair amount of time. Are we as drafters now supposed to be accountable for injuries before they happen?

 
RB's that have never finished TOP 12 but are put in the TOP 10 because of potential. It seems more times than not these are the guys that BUST year to year.
I studied that last year and did not find any evidence that unproven players are more likely to bust than proven players are. Here's a clip:
Unproven players: are they overvalued?

Discussions about losing your league in the early rounds generally occur during discussions about players --- usually young players --- who have never proven that they are capable of the production their ADP implies. Obviously they have the potential or else their ADP wouldn't be that high, but they seem risky because they are not known quantities. I'm going to define a player to be "unproven" if his ADP is higher than his previous career best finish (fine print). This would obviously include all rookies. It includes players like Kevan Barlow in 2004 (ADP: RB12, best previous finish: RB17) and Kevin Jones last year --- these are the ones we remember well --- but don't forget that it also includes players like LaMont Jordan and Larry Fitzgerald from last year. This year's unproven players of interest include, but are not limited to, Ronnie Brown, Steven Jackson, Cadillac Williams, Reggie Bush, and Roy Williams.

So let's do an experiment. We'll look at the last six years of ADP data and do the following: we'll pretend that we are drafting from the ADP list and that, when our turn comes up, an uproven player is tops on the list. Then we'll scan down the list and look at the next-highest-ranked player who is not unproven. Then we'll see who did better (in terms of fantasy points per game) in that season.

For example, in 2000, the rookie Jamal Lewis had an ADP of RB18. The next running back on the ADP list was the venerable Ricky Watters, who was obviously not unproven. As it turned out, Watters would have been the better choice. He averaged 2.3 fantasy points per game more than Lewis did.

Here's how that will look in the data I'll present:

Name YR PrevHi ADP FPPG-------------------------------------------Jamal Lewis 2000 - 18 12.6Ricky Watters 3 19 15.0DIFF: -2.3But one example means very little. That's why we're collecting six year's worth. Also, because our question is somewhat subjective and our algorithm is rote, some examples might even seem a bit misleading. That's why I've included all the data right here. You can comb through it and focus on only the subset that seems most relevant to you.But the point is, if the market overvalues unproven players then we should be able to gain advantage, in the long run, by skipping over them and taking a lower ranked but presumably safer option. And if that's the case, then at least some evidence for it ought to show itself in this study.

Results: overall, there were 136 pairs. In 73 of them (53.6%), the unproven player outperformed the proven one. On average, the unproven player outperformed the proven one by 0.47 fantasy points per game. In the official sense, this is not anywhere near statistically significant evidence that unproven players are undervalued (especially since the comparison is slightly rigged in their favor), but that's not important. The important thing is that we see no evidence that unproven players are overvalued.

I have long believed that the fantasy football market is pretty efficient and this study is, in my view, more evidence in support of that view. There may be a few players each year who are incorrectly valued by the masses, but I have yet to find any identifiable group of players who are systematically over- or undervalued by the general fantasy football playing public.

I'll close with the positional breakdown:

Pos Number of Pairs Unproven was better Proven was better Avg Diff--------------------------------------------------------------------------------QB 28 20 8 +1.66RB 49 22 27 -0.10WR 37 19 18 +0.00TE 22 12 10 +1.02You might be tempted to infer from this that unproven quarterbacks are actually undervalued, but I'm not sure there is enough evidence here to conclude that. It's a pretty small sample. Still, it does at the least say that it's very unlikely that unproven quarterbacks are overvalued. If you like Philip Rivers, for instance, and are trying to build up your resolve to pull the trigger on him, this might help.Fine print

1. I excluded players who had previously achieved an elite level of production, even if it wasn't quite as high as their ADP. For example, LaDainian Tomlinson has never ranked higher than RB3, but even his ADP is RB2, no one would think of him as unproven.

3. I only included the top 20 QBs, the top 30 RBs, the top 30 WRs, and the top 15 TEs of each season.

2. All ADP data is taken from myfantasyleague redraft league drafts conducted after August 25th of the given season.
 
Until people can accurately predict injuries, a lot of this is based mostly on luck in terms of who "busts." By my count, 9 of the 14 players missed a fair amount of time. Are we as drafters now supposed to be accountable for injuries before they happen?
I disagree with this - correct me if I'm wrong, but James, Cadillac, Brown & Jordan did not miss a significant amount of time last year, they were busts.
 
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Until people can accurately predict injuries, a lot of this is based mostly on luck in terms of who "busts." By my count, 9 of the 14 players missed a fair amount of time. Are we as drafters now supposed to be accountable for injuries before they happen?
I disagree with this - correct me if I'm wrong, but James, Cadillac, Brown & Jordan did not miss a significant amount of time last year, they were busts.
Jordan missed a fair amount of time (although he was not doing near as well as the season before).
 
GB auctions. This BS is never an issue.I do however overpay a little at times.....
This is another issue altogether. A friend of mine swears by auctions, I just don't see it. Call me old school, but I'll always love the snake draft more.
 
Hmm...wonder if the large rise in incidence of "busts" towards of the end of the first round is related to the absolute insistence of conventional wisdom that "You must draft a Running Back in the first round. You MUST...MUST..."

It gets progressively harder to guess right the further down you go in any position. I usually made out just fine drafting Jerry Rice or Randy Moss late in the first round, instead of the "rising RB du jour". Don't think I would do that this year...but I think there's some correlation.

 
ceo3west said:
GB auctions. This BS is never an issue.I do however overpay a little at times.....
This is another issue altogether. A friend of mine swears by auctions, I just don't see it. Call me old school, but I'll always love the snake draft more.
So what you're saying is that this is another issue altogether and although friend of yours swears by auctions, you just don't see it, and you're old school, but will always love the snake draft more? Is that right? :goodposting: Discussion for another thread. Feel free to start it up though (or better yet do a search) - most who go to auctions strongly prefer it. I doubt that's coincedence.Anyway, I think in 12+ team leagues and near the end of the picks, going top WR w/2d tier RB is well worth considering, esp in PPR.
 
ceo3west said:
GB auctions. This BS is never an issue.

I do however overpay a little at times.....
This is another issue altogether. A friend of mine swears by auctions, I just don't see it. Call me old school, but I'll always love the snake draft more.
So what you're saying is that this is another issue altogether and although friend of yours swears by auctions, you just don't see it, and you're old school, but will always love the snake draft more? Is that right? :lmao: Discussion for another thread. Feel free to start it up though (or better yet do a search) - most who go to auctions strongly prefer it. I doubt that's coincedence.

Anyway, I think in 12+ team leagues and near the end of the picks, going top WR w/2d tier RB is well worth considering, esp in PPR.
:goodposting:
 
To say that because 50% of first rounders are "Busts", and consequently this gives you a license to wander away from the top 12 is poor logice. Players who go there own way rarely make the playoffs and are why top GM's win year after year even in redrafting leagues. To put it plainly, you don't know more than the expects consistantly enough to disregard their draft reccomendations. Once in a while someone guesses right, but that is the exception to the rule. Don't let your desire to prove to everyone wrong ruin your season.

Think of it this way: 50% of the top 12 are in the first round. The other 50% of the top 12 are spread over rounds 2-8. If you take a 2nd or 3rd round guy in the first round your chance of striking gold diminishes. Why not wait till the 2nd or 3rd round and take your guy there?

 
Until people can accurately predict injuries, a lot of this is based mostly on luck in terms of who "busts." By my count, 9 of the 14 players missed a fair amount of time. Are we as drafters now supposed to be accountable for injuries before they happen?
I disagree with this - correct me if I'm wrong, but James, Cadillac, Brown & Jordan did not miss a significant amount of time last year, they were busts.
Jordan missed a fair amount of time (although he was not doing near as well as the season before).
Dave, when can I expect the RB value vs. ADP article? Love the piece on QB's.
 
Hmm...wonder if the large rise in incidence of "busts" towards of the end of the first round is related to the absolute insistence of conventional wisdom that "You must draft a Running Back in the first round. You MUST...MUST..."

It gets progressively harder to guess right the further down you go in any position. I usually made out just fine drafting Jerry Rice or Randy Moss late in the first round, instead of the "rising RB du jour". Don't think I would do that this year...but I think there's some correlation.
excellent post . . .
 
To say that because 50% of first rounders are "Busts", and consequently this gives you a license to wander away from the top 12 is poor logice. Players who go there own way rarely make the playoffs and are why top GM's win year after year even in redrafting leagues. To put it plainly, you don't know more than the expects consistantly enough to disregard their draft reccomendations. Once in a while someone guesses right, but that is the exception to the rule. Don't let your desire to prove to everyone wrong ruin your season.

Think of it this way: 50% of the top 12 are in the first round. The other 50% of the top 12 are spread over rounds 2-8. If you take a 2nd or 3rd round guy in the first round your chance of striking gold diminishes. Why not wait till the 2nd or 3rd round and take your guy there?
ADP has nothing to do with Expert Rankings. The expert rankings on players (especially players not in the TOP 5) are not similar to the ADP. Just look at the staff rankings.
 
Il take whoever I think is the best player who won't make it back to me.
Very true! Take your guy and hope there are mistakes or "need picks" made before your next pick.If I'm at #6 or 7...I start thinking about "reaching" for Laurence Maroney. He fits the description above.We had a guy "reach" for Gates near the end of round 2 last year and win it all. He did that for the exact reason stated above.
 
To say that because 50% of first rounders are "Busts", and consequently this gives you a license to wander away from the top 12 is poor logice. Players who go there own way rarely make the playoffs and are why top GM's win year after year even in redrafting leagues. To put it plainly, you don't know more than the expects consistantly enough to disregard their draft reccomendations. Once in a while someone guesses right, but that is the exception to the rule. Don't let your desire to prove to everyone wrong ruin your season. Think of it this way: 50% of the top 12 are in the first round. The other 50% of the top 12 are spread over rounds 2-8. If you take a 2nd or 3rd round guy in the first round your chance of striking gold diminishes. Why not wait till the 2nd or 3rd round and take your guy there?
I agree with this. It's not logically sound to say "50% of first rounders bust, so I'll draft a guy currently going in the 2nd round" without first addressing what percentage of SECOND rounders bust. In reality, second rounders bust at an equal or greater rate compared to 1st rounders, so replacing a 1st rounder with a 2nd rounder just for the heck of it is not the greatest of strategies.Now, if you're replacing that first rounder with a guy scheduled to go in the 2nd because you truly and honestly believe that the guy going in the 2nd is far and away better than anyone else remaining and that he won't make it back to you, that's another matter entirely. I'm of the opinion that you have to get your guys. I'd rather lose with my guys than win with someone else's.
 
Il take whoever I think is the best player who won't make it back to me.
:thumbup: This always has been and always willbe my drafting philosophy. I read and follow ADP and VBD to a point, but I am going to take who I feel is the best player for my fantasy team at that point in the draft regardless of value or any other theory.
 
This is the same faulty logic that guys use when they give their top 10 RBs and then claim that since there's a 50% turnover from year to year, you should only include 5 RBs from last year. While this may end up to be true at the end of the year, by placing those "reaches" into your top 10, you're actually lowering your chances of getting your top 10 correct.

 
Synthesizer said:
This is the same faulty logic that guys use when they give their top 10 RBs and then claim that since there's a 50% turnover from year to year, you should only include 5 RBs from last year. While this may end up to be true at the end of the year, by placing those "reaches" into your top 10, you're actually lowering your chances of getting your top 10 correct.
Unlike some guys here, I don't use this logic. What I do is rather than reaching for a 2nd round guy in rd 1, I'll look at the ADP top 10 and try to determine which are the "safest" among those guys, knowing that 5 will not be there at year end. Injury you can't predict obviously, however looking at past years, there are red flags that go up that guys should be looking at. A great example is Edge James - a lot of guys chose to ignore the fact that he moved to a bad team with a bad o-line. Those are very real factors that come into play.
 
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I agree. Last season, I made it priority in the first 5 rounds to avoid busts. So much so that I picked Manning 10th and was laughed at for doing so, but what were the chances of Manning being a bust? I spent my next 2 pics on WR's and didn't get a RB til 31st overall (Westbrook). I then carpet bombed for running backs. Like 6 out of the next seven pics and guess what? $1100 championship

 
I agree. Last season, I made it priority in the first 5 rounds to avoid busts. So much so that I picked Manning 10th and was laughed at for doing so, but what were the chances of Manning being a bust? I spent my next 2 pics on WR's and didn't get a RB til 31st overall (Westbrook). I then carpet bombed for running backs. Like 6 out of the next seven pics and guess what? $1100 championship
risky but worth considering something like this.
 
I agree. Last season, I made it priority in the first 5 rounds to avoid busts. So much so that I picked Manning 10th and was laughed at for doing so, but what were the chances of Manning being a bust? I spent my next 2 pics on WR's and didn't get a RB til 31st overall (Westbrook). I then carpet bombed for running backs. Like 6 out of the next seven pics and guess what? $1100 championship
I'd wait until the 3rd round to draft a RB if I knew I could get Westbrook too. Any open spots in the league?
 
I think there is a false premise buried in here. Ok- fantasy players reside along a pretty standard bell curve, the majority end up in a squishy middle while (relatively) a few are studs and a few are worthless. Just looking at the first round as a 50% risk of a bust is a dangerous way to see things. The likelihood of busting must drop as you get further into the draft (its easier and more likely for a player to put up pedestrian numbers). This would seem to imply that you should trade down and get as many 'value' picks as you can because they are less likely not to live up to their status.

That would be a disaster (short of extreme luck or an amazing ability to pick players late). An elite group of players score the bulk of the fantasy points for a team, and teams that end up with these players go deep into the playoffs. What you dont want is to be 'good enough to lose'. In general i find championship teams (format dependant of course) require at least 1 bonified stud who will score so many more points than the next tier down as to render small advantages drawn by other positions moot.

Now back to the original premise- while it may be true that 1st round players have 'only' a 50% chance of meeting their draft position, the more important point is that players taken in other rounds have much worse chances of vastly exceeding their draft positions by becoming top 3-5 players at their positions (if there are 12 players in the first round, 6 of them are going to eat up 6 top spots, mostly RBs- so your odds of grabbing one of the few remaing 'stud' spots are quite low when picking from a dozen or more contenders in later rounds).

 
duaneok66 said:
Sylira21 said:
Hmm...wonder if the large rise in incidence of "busts" towards of the end of the first round is related to the absolute insistence of conventional wisdom that "You must draft a Running Back in the first round. You MUST...MUST..."

It gets progressively harder to guess right the further down you go in any position. I usually made out just fine drafting Jerry Rice or Randy Moss late in the first round, instead of the "rising RB du jour". Don't think I would do that this year...but I think there's some correlation.
excellent post . . .
This is another reason why I so strongly support leagues that start 2 QBs. QBs have a lot of value in these leagues. You consistently see 3-4 QBs drafted in the first round, the top QBs this year (Manning, Palmer & Brady) have far less potential to produce significantly expectations and even though injuries happen you have to be more confident in these three guys playing 16 than every running back on the board, including LT.ETA: First post in the SP this season. :pickle: :pickle: :pickle:

:championship:

 
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OP, They call it average draft position for a reason, standard deviation is far more important than just the average number. I also doubt anyone's board is so dramatically different that choosing Willie Parker over Ronnie Brown or Reggie Bush (or vice versa) could be considered a true reach.

Grabbing Adrian Peterson or Cedric Benson the other hand...?

ETA: Damn I am so freaking genius.

 
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If you think someone will get drafted in the second round, and you want to draft him in the first, why not trade down for extra picks, that way you get the best of both worlds?

 

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