Do you think Marino's records meant more to him? (1 Viewer)

[Liquid Tension]

Take away the Super Bowl factors and the records in this discussion. Was Marino a better all around QB than Montana, Elway, Favre etc.... Just wondering. I will always like and admire Marino. I don't want to be illogical and want to hear opinions on this.

Absolutely not. All the people you mentioned could all beat a defense with their legs. Marino's only chance to beat anyone was with his right arm. As I've said plenty of times, playing QB is not limited to passing ability alone.

The problem is that it's only been in the last two decades that people have really bought into that, beginning more or less with Randall Cunningham. Sure, you had exceptions before that like Fran Tarkenton, but by and large a QB's legs were used solely to set up his passes. Scrambling was the rare exception. Even so, isn't it to his credit that Marino was as good as he was without great scrambling ability? The guy's quick release was his trademark, and I don't know of another QB who was or is as fast in getting rid of the ball, much less could also could throw as far and as accurately without a long windup.

Actually, that is an inaccurate statement. Guys that played before him like Bradshaw and Staubach ran for over 2000 yards in their career. Bob Griese ran for just under 1000, Bart Starr ran for 1300. The list goes on and on. Hell, Joe Namath had much worse knee problems than Marino and he still had 71 carries for 140 yards....nearly double the yardage on a quarter of the carries compared to Marino! Aikman ran for over 1000 yards in his career, Brady has already gone for 446, PManning for 694. All of these stats serve as an indictment on just how limited Marino was in his ability.Giving Marino "credit" for overcoming his liabilities is one way to look at it, but it doesn't make him any less one dimensional, it only highlights how lacking he was in an area required of the QB position before, during, and after he played.

Guys, you are missing a big factor here and that is avoiding sacks. Marino would get rid of balls that others (who could scramble) would get sacked trying to avoid something. Marino would either throw it away or complete it while others would get sacked (that is not something that is in the stats other than the sacks. I remember Bruce Smith saying that Marino was the best QB to ever play the game because not only was he the best passer of all time, his quick release combined with "having eyes behind his head" made Smith miss tons of sacks. Paraphrasing a little but not the quote.Marino made his OL look great with less sacks.

 

[switz]

Yes, but I assume you are talking about QB's that played well enough for their team to win a title. Marino never did, if that were true, he would have a ring.

Okay, let's take this the other way. Of the quarterbacks that you consider better than Marino and have the hardware to back it up, did any of them ever play poorly enough to lose but won anyway?

I get where you are going, but the answer ultimately is "no". Winning is winning, losing is losing. There is finality to it and actual results eliminate any gray area. Hypotheticals get nowhere.

You are talking through both sides of your mouth then. On one hand you said that nobody is saying Dilfer was better than Marino, but then you make the above comment?

Comprehension is a vital part of keeping up here. Bolded for your benefit.

Except you say that you are only making judgments based on what they actually have won or lost with no hypotheticals...so how can I assume that Marino is better than Dilfer if rings are your absolute in your judgment? This is the entire premise of the arguments; how much do you value the ring? For me the ring means very little unless the teams around the players were virtually the same.You then state the the other QB's could run and Marino couldn't so they are more valuable, but that coudl be debated if Marino was teh better passer (as most people agree). Elway won a SB when teams did everything to stop TD, Marino never had teams do anything but stop him, along with a mediocre defense. How many other QB's won like that? Montana had the greatest player of all time in Jerry Rice and solid support around him even when he only had Bill Ring as a running back. While Ring was more like Marino's offense, SF had a dominating defense, which Marino never had the luxury of. The one year marino had a decent defense, he went to the SB and his decent defense allowed 38 points.

I am sorry, not taking the team around you into account may be hypothetical, but it is FAR MORE ACCURATE.

Jim Kelly was rather statuesque as well, but I would say he was a better QB than Marino as well.

I hope you are kidding, Kelly was not even close to Marino and Kelly had great talent all around him including special teams and defense.

Kelly was the better, smarter QB. He just played wasted a number of years in the USFL. Had he gone into the NFL first Marino wouldn't have held a lot of his records. I watched both of them regularly during their heydays...

 

[Gr00vus]

I think Dan is an egomaniac and the more I watch him commentate the less I like him.

Spot on. Worse, he's not that smart so even setting ego aside, I find he has little to offer anyway aside from his name. And yes, "egomaniac" is a word.

His comments on Inside The NFL last week were about ######ed, especially his opinion on the scab players in 87.

He was #####ing about how the scabs were taking paychecks away from the "real" football players, keeping them from making money. Those ******* minimum wage store clerk, real estate agent, janitor, prison guard, etc. scabs coming in and taking some of the money the "real" football players were entitled to for playing a game. The outrage!Dan really needs to not be on T.V., he comes off as extremely arrogant and unintelligent. No comment on his greatness as a player.

 

[Despyzer]

Kelly was the better, smarter QB. He just played wasted a number of years in the USFL. Had he gone into the NFL first Marino wouldn't have held a lot of his records.

So you think that in '83, '84, and '85, Kelly could have passed for 25,894 yards and 183 TDs? Even though he may not have even started in front of Joe Ferguson for a year or two? Wow, that IS pretty impressive! I think I'm starting to appreciate Kelly in a whole new light!

 

[H.K.]

Actually, that is an inaccurate statement. Guys that played before him like Bradshaw and Staubach ran for over 2000 yards in their career. Bob Griese ran for just under 1000, Bart Starr ran for 1300. The list goes on and on. Hell, Joe Namath had much worse knee problems than Marino and he still had 71 carries for 140 yards....nearly double the yardage on a quarter of the carries compared to Marino! Aikman ran for over 1000 yards in his career, Brady has already gone for 446, PManning for 694. All of these stats serve as an indictment on just how limited Marino was in his ability.

Giving Marino "credit" for overcoming his liabilities is one way to look at it, but it doesn't make him any less one dimensional, it only highlights how lacking he was in an area required of the QB position before, during, and after he played.

Which of these QB's would you take over Marino? Difficult to say. The answer requires the context of the question to be more defined. They played in different eras, with different styles of offense, different medical expertise and training methods, etc.. The rules were different, too. Also, is my selection for their entire career? one season when they were in their prime? a title game? etc. Without knowing any answers to those questions, I'd take Staubach, and Aikman in most scenarios. Those guys would have put up serious numbers if they played in Marino's system. Bradshaw is a maybe, Namath would be a definite if it was limited to his prime. Marino may have been better than Griese and Starr, but they played a completely different style, so its tough to say without knowing more specifics.

Also, what consideration do you give for the fact that Marino's passing ability (and ability to avoid sacks in the pocket) were so good that he needed the running aspect of his game less than other QB's you're comparing him to?

Maybe they were "so good" because they had to be, sort of an adaptation or self defense mechanism to offset his immobility. Either way, DC's knew how to beat Marino, that's why his playoff success was limited. He went against better defenses in the playoffs and he couldn't beat them the way he could torch the Jets or Colts in the regular season.

 

[H.K.]

Kelly was the better, smarter QB. He just played wasted a number of years in the USFL. Had he gone into the NFL first Marino wouldn't have held a lot of his records. I watched both of them regularly during their heydays...

Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo.

 

[The Goat]

The one year marino had a decent defense, he went to the SB and his decent defense allowed 38 points.

Marino threw 21 incompletions and 2 interceptions in that game. He had one TD pass and the offense scored 16 points. Clearly he rose to the occasion, yet his team let him down.

First, Marino was 23 years old, completing his first full year in the NFL.Second, here's Elway's SUper Bowl numbers without the supporting cast he had at the end of his career:1986 22 cmpl 37 att 304 yd 1TD 1INT1987 14 cmpl 38 att 257 yd 1TD 3INT - or...twenty FOUR incompletions and 3 interceptions...I suppose this removes him from your list as well...we're just gonna drop an extra eyeroll for that... 1989 10 cmpl 26 att 108 yd 0 TD 2INT. Yet another shining example of Elway rising to the occasion. Yeah...I know the Denver D gave up 55 points...but that's all Elway's fault...right?

 

[The Goat]

Kelly was the better, smarter QB. He just played wasted a number of years in the USFL. Had he gone into the NFL first Marino wouldn't have held a lot of his records. I watched both of them regularly during their heydays...

Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo.

Hold...hold on a second...one of your arguments is that Marino "couldn't get it done," and then you're going to jump on the JIM KELLY bandwagon? That's like saying, "Wow. I'm not so sure I like flying on this Goodyear blimp...let me try the Hindenburg!"ETA: ...and are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that Buffalo wasn't pass-happy during the Kelly era? Please don't tell me you're suggesting that.

 

[H.K.]

Kelly was the better, smarter QB. He just played wasted a number of years in the USFL. Had he gone into the NFL first Marino wouldn't have held a lot of his records. I watched both of them regularly during their heydays...

Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo.

Hold...hold on a second...one of your arguments is that Marino "couldn't get it done," and then you're going to jump on the JIM KELLY bandwagon? That's like saying, "Wow. I'm not so sure I like flying on this Goodyear blimp...let me try the Hindenburg!"ETA: ...and are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that Buffalo wasn't pass-happy during the Kelly era? Please don't tell me you're suggesting that.

Son, you need to do your homework. Marino attempted over 500 passes eleven times in his career. Three times he attempted over 600.Jim Kelly never attempted 500 passes in a season, his highest ever was 480.Marino played in nice weather and threw the ball a ton, comparatively, Kelly certainly did not. Hence my statement: "Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo" was 100% on the money.You could have put a bunch of guys at QB in that nice weather in Miami, gave them Marino's weapons and heaved it 35 times a week. Plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats. However, the argument doesn't work that way does it? The only time its OK to put a QB on a team is when you say Marino would have won a ring if he played somewhere else. Pathetic.

 

[Liquid Tension]

The one year marino had a decent defense, he went to the SB and his decent defense allowed 38 points.

Marino threw 21 incompletions and 2 interceptions in that game. He had one TD pass and the offense scored 16 points. Clearly he rose to the occasion, yet his team let him down.

Wow, talk about spinning stats to try and prove your naive point...Marino completed 58% of his passes (1 td) and was the only QB in SB history to throw for over 300 yards and lose (318). Not sure you are aware how football works, but when your defense allows the competition to put up 28 points in the first half (38 overall), it puts a ton of pressure on the offense, you will need to force the ball and QB's will tend to throw some more picks. Especially when playing a top defense. Obviously, you are not aware that SF allowed the least amount of points in the league in 1984 (yes they were #1). A matter of fact, the niners allowed only 10 total points in both other playoff games combined. They were a dominant defense. This Niner team was 15-1 and was a juggernaut with a great running attack, a great throwing attack and a #1 defense. The Dolphin defense got creamed and that is why the Dolphins lost. They also could have kicked FG's but went for TD's late. This is the same story I have said over and over, if Marino he had the Niner defense (or a top defense like the winning teams) he would have won many SB's. I mean the Bear defense the next year allowed only 13 point in all 3 postseason games combined...don't you think that would make it easier to get a ring.

I am sorry, it is absurd to de-value Marino because his teams defense got torched and he didn't get a ring.

 

[Liquid Tension]

HK said "You could have put a bunch of guys at QB in that nice weather in Miami, gave them Marino's weapons and heaved it 35 times a week. Plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats"

Ignorance alert!!! Weapons? Duper and Clayton were smurfs and Marino made them who they were. No other QB in history could have accomplished what Marino did on those teams. A matter of fact if it was Montana, the Dolphins would not have even made the SB in 1984 and I think Montana was the best QB ever. What other weapons did he have? No RB to speak of, what about a TE?

HK, you must have some sort of hate for Marino because your comments are so biased and off base it is worthless to discuss.

Feel free to get in the last word

 

[switz]

HK said "You could have put a bunch of guys at QB in that nice weather in Miami, gave them Marino's weapons and heaved it 35 times a week. Plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats"

Ignorance alert!!! Weapons? Duper and Clayton were smurfs and Marino made them who they were. No other QB in history could have accomplished what Marino did on those teams. A matter of fact if it was Montana, the Dolphins would not have even made the SB in 1984 and I think Montana was the best QB ever. What other weapons did he have? No RB to speak of, what about a TE?

HK, you must have some sort of hate for Marino because your comments are so biased and off base it is worthless to discuss.

Feel free to get in the last word

What a joke... Duper and Clayton were not exactly scrub receivers. Were they smurfs? Yes, but alot of teams had smurf receivers those days, it's not like today.There are other QBs who could have done as well, if not better than Marino on that team. Your insistence that no other could just goes to show how biased you are. I would say both MAnnign and Brady could have, Kelly would have. Kelly made Reed look far better than he was, and really had no one else.

 

[The Goat]

Kelly was the better, smarter QB. He just played wasted a number of years in the USFL. Had he gone into the NFL first Marino wouldn't have held a lot of his records. I watched both of them regularly during their heydays...

Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo.

Hold...hold on a second...one of your arguments is that Marino "couldn't get it done," and then you're going to jump on the JIM KELLY bandwagon? That's like saying, "Wow. I'm not so sure I like flying on this Goodyear blimp...let me try the Hindenburg!"ETA: ...and are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that Buffalo wasn't pass-happy during the Kelly era? Please don't tell me you're suggesting that.

Son, you need to do your homework. Marino attempted over 500 passes eleven times in his career. Three times he attempted over 600.

Jim Kelly never attempted 500 passes in a season, his highest ever was 480.

Marino played in nice weather and threw the ball a ton, comparatively, Kelly certainly did not. Hence my statement: "Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo" was 100% on the money.

You could have put a bunch of guys at QB in that nice weather in Miami, gave them Marino's weapons and heaved it 35 times a week. Plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats. However, the argument doesn't work that way does it? The only time its OK to put a QB on a team is when you say Marino would have won a ring if he played somewhere else. Pathetic.

First, if you're going to take the "pet name" angle, this could get a little dicey, kid.Second, you included a very important word in your reply to me that you left out initially...comparatively. From your OP on the subject, our would infer that Buffalo rarely passed the ball during the Kelly era. That just ain't so, sport.

Third - Jim Kelly absolutely benefitted from a pass-happy offense for a good portion of his career; the K-gun was a valuable asset to him - and he ran it out of the freakin' shotgun half the time. If anything, it made him look better than he was, because he was able to use Thurman Thomas on short-to-medium range passes half the time. If you don't know that, you had your nose buried way too deep in your homework, and weren't watching enough games, bucko.

Fourth - bone up on your reading comprehension, and try not to contradict yourself, amigo. I never suggested that QB A would do any better with Team B, or vice-versa. That's a pointless exercise. However, you try to point out that Marino's accomplishments don't really make him that much better than Kelly because Marino benefitted from playing in warm weather and a pass-heavy system. To quote; "you could put a bunch of guys in that system, give them Marino's weapons and...plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats."

Since you went there, Ace, let's take the same scenario and put a little different spin on it.

Let's take ANOTHER QB...say...Jim Kelly...and put him in a nice, perfect condition scorching, humid environment for half his games. Let's give him what Marino had - from a slightly different perspective.

Welcome to Miami, Jim! Oh, by the way...we're taking away Andre Reed, James Lofton, Bill Brooks, Don Beebe and Thurman Thomas. Sure, you get Clayton and Duper - but only for a little over half your career. After that, you get a decent couple years out of Irving Fryar - after which your best option is O.J. McDuffie. So...you'll have to completely change your game up in the early 90s. You'll have to mix it up between Fryar and a backfield receiving combination of Keith Byars, some guy named Terry Kirby, and Tony Paige, who's built like a bowling ball and runs about as fast.

Oh, by the way - your defensive coordinator for a good portion of your career is Tom Olivadotti. We call him "The Sieve." So, anyway...expect to have to make a lot of fourth-quarter comebacks. You know - like the one you did for Buffalo against Houst...oh, no...wait. That was Frank Reich. Nevermind.

Anyway...here's the best part. Everyone KNOWS you're going to pass. Nobody's going to bother to even play against the run, because your best running back during your prime will be some clown named Mark Higgs. So...you'll be passing a lot. Everyone will be looking for it. Safeties will be trying to kill your WR, and cornerbacks will be trying to jump routes on you all day. Make sure you put the ball exactly where only your receiver can catch it, because they're going to be well-covered most of the time.

But, of course, you can do all that, right? You could complete all those passes, win all those games, make all those comebacks, and throw all those touchdowns...even when you had a terrible defense, no running back, and everyone knew you were coming at them through the air. After all...so could any QB that played in Miami.

 

[switz]

Kelly was the better, smarter QB. He just played wasted a number of years in the USFL. Had he gone into the NFL first Marino wouldn't have held a lot of his records. I watched both of them regularly during their heydays...

Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo.

Hold...hold on a second...one of your arguments is that Marino "couldn't get it done," and then you're going to jump on the JIM KELLY bandwagon? That's like saying, "Wow. I'm not so sure I like flying on this Goodyear blimp...let me try the Hindenburg!"ETA: ...and are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that Buffalo wasn't pass-happy during the Kelly era? Please don't tell me you're suggesting that.

Son, you need to do your homework. Marino attempted over 500 passes eleven times in his career. Three times he attempted over 600.

Jim Kelly never attempted 500 passes in a season, his highest ever was 480.

Marino played in nice weather and threw the ball a ton, comparatively, Kelly certainly did not. Hence my statement: "Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo" was 100% on the money.

You could have put a bunch of guys at QB in that nice weather in Miami, gave them Marino's weapons and heaved it 35 times a week. Plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats. However, the argument doesn't work that way does it? The only time its OK to put a QB on a team is when you say Marino would have won a ring if he played somewhere else. Pathetic.

First, if you're going to take the "pet name" angle, this could get a little dicey, kid.Second, you included a very important word in your reply to me that you left out initially...comparatively. From your OP on the subject, our would infer that Buffalo rarely passed the ball during the Kelly era. That just ain't so, sport.

Third - Jim Kelly absolutely benefitted from a pass-happy offense for a good portion of his career; the K-gun was a valuable asset to him - and he ran it out of the freakin' shotgun half the time. If anything, it made him look better than he was, because he was able to use Thurman Thomas on short-to-medium range passes half the time. If you don't know that, you had your nose buried way too deep in your homework, and weren't watching enough games, bucko.

Fourth - bone up on your reading comprehension, and try not to contradict yourself, amigo. I never suggested that QB A would do any better with Team B, or vice-versa. That's a pointless exercise. However, you try to point out that Marino's accomplishments don't really make him that much better than Kelly because Marino benefitted from playing in warm weather and a pass-heavy system. To quote; "you could put a bunch of guys in that system, give them Marino's weapons and...plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats."

Since you went there, Ace, let's take the same scenario and put a little different spin on it.

Let's take ANOTHER QB...say...Jim Kelly...and put him in a nice, perfect condition scorching, humid environment for half his games. Let's give him what Marino had - from a slightly different perspective.

Welcome to Miami, Jim! Oh, by the way...we're taking away Andre Reed, James Lofton, Bill Brooks, Don Beebe and Thurman Thomas. Sure, you get Clayton and Duper - but only for a little over half your career. After that, you get a decent couple years out of Irving Fryar - after which your best option is O.J. McDuffie. So...you'll have to completely change your game up in the early 90s. You'll have to mix it up between Fryar and a backfield receiving combination of Keith Byars, some guy named Terry Kirby, and Tony Paige, who's built like a bowling ball and runs about as fast.

Oh, by the way - your defensive coordinator for a good portion of your career is Tom Olivadotti. We call him "The Sieve." So, anyway...expect to have to make a lot of fourth-quarter comebacks. You know - like the one you did for Buffalo against Houst...oh, no...wait. That was Frank Reich. Nevermind.

Anyway...here's the best part. Everyone KNOWS you're going to pass. Nobody's going to bother to even play against the run, because your best running back during your prime will be some clown named Mark Higgs. So...you'll be passing a lot. Everyone will be looking for it. Safeties will be trying to kill your WR, and cornerbacks will be trying to jump routes on you all day. Make sure you put the ball exactly where only your receiver can catch it, because they're going to be well-covered most of the time.

But, of course, you can do all that, right? You could complete all those passes, win all those games, make all those comebacks, and throw all those touchdowns...even when you had a terrible defense, no running back, and everyone knew you were coming at them through the air. After all...so could any QB that played in Miami.

Not sure what you're tryig to do here... but listing out all of Jim's receivers versus Marino's receivers only shows how bad the talent surrounding Kelly was...And having a bad defense only inflates passing stats, not the other way around.

And on one hand you are saying Kelly benefitted from dumping off the ball to his RBs, but then that was a handicap to Marino? Which is it, a benefit or a handicap - it's not both.

Face it, Marino is overrated because he was in a situation that gave him many more passing opportunities than many other QBs, and had those other QBs been in the same situation, they likely would have performed as well if not better.

 

[The Goat]

HK said "You could have put a bunch of guys at QB in that nice weather in Miami, gave them Marino's weapons and heaved it 35 times a week. Plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats"

Ignorance alert!!! Weapons? Duper and Clayton were smurfs and Marino made them who they were. No other QB in history could have accomplished what Marino did on those teams. A matter of fact if it was Montana, the Dolphins would not have even made the SB in 1984 and I think Montana was the best QB ever. What other weapons did he have? No RB to speak of, what about a TE?

HK, you must have some sort of hate for Marino because your comments are so biased and off base it is worthless to discuss.

Feel free to get in the last word

What a joke... Duper and Clayton were not exactly scrub receivers. Were they smurfs? Yes, but alot of teams had smurf receivers those days, it's not like today.There are other QBs who could have done as well, if not better than Marino on that team. Your insistence that no other could just goes to show how biased you are. I would say both MAnnign and Brady could have, Kelly would have. Kelly made Reed look far better than he was, and really had no one else.

I wish I would make the X bigger regarding your statement about Kelly making Reed look better - it was almost certainly vice-versa. Andre Reed was an absolute beast across the middle of the field.Anyway...X...Kelly absolutely had at LEAST as many weapons, if not more. Not even counting solid contributions from Brooks, Copeland, McKeller and Metzelaars....

James Lofton:

1990 buf 35 rec 712 yd 4 td

1991 buf 57 rec 1072 yd 8 td

1992 buf 51 rec 786 yd 6 td

Don Beebe:

1991 buf 32 rec 414 yd 6 td

1992 buf 33 rec 554 yd 2 td

1993 buf 31 rec 504 yd 3 td

1994 buf 40 rec 527 yd 4 td

Chris Burkett:

1986 buf 34 rec 778 yd 4td

1987 buf 56 rec 765 yd 4td

Thurman Thomas:

Career - buf 456 rec 4341 yd 22 td

 

[Obie Wan]

Kelly was the better, smarter QB. He just played wasted a number of years in the USFL. Had he gone into the NFL first Marino wouldn't have held a lot of his records. I watched both of them regularly during their heydays...

Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo.

Hold...hold on a second...one of your arguments is that Marino "couldn't get it done," and then you're going to jump on the JIM KELLY bandwagon? That's like saying, "Wow. I'm not so sure I like flying on this Goodyear blimp...let me try the Hindenburg!"ETA: ...and are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that Buffalo wasn't pass-happy during the Kelly era? Please don't tell me you're suggesting that.

Son, you need to do your homework. Marino attempted over 500 passes eleven times in his career. Three times he attempted over 600.Jim Kelly never attempted 500 passes in a season, his highest ever was 480.Marino played in nice weather and threw the ball a ton, comparatively, Kelly certainly did not. Hence my statement: "Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo" was 100% on the money.You could have put a bunch of guys at QB in that nice weather in Miami, gave them Marino's weapons and heaved it 35 times a week. Plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats. However, the argument doesn't work that way does it? The only time its OK to put a QB on a team is when you say Marino would have won a ring if he played somewhere else. Pathetic.

Buffalo ran the ball enough to lead teh league in rushing during those pass happy Kelly days.Dan and the Dolphins - not so much

 

[The Goat]

Kelly was the better, smarter QB. He just played wasted a number of years in the USFL. Had he gone into the NFL first Marino wouldn't have held a lot of his records. I watched both of them regularly during their heydays...

Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo.

Hold...hold on a second...one of your arguments is that Marino "couldn't get it done," and then you're going to jump on the JIM KELLY bandwagon? That's like saying, "Wow. I'm not so sure I like flying on this Goodyear blimp...let me try the Hindenburg!"ETA: ...and are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that Buffalo wasn't pass-happy during the Kelly era? Please don't tell me you're suggesting that.

Son, you need to do your homework. Marino attempted over 500 passes eleven times in his career. Three times he attempted over 600.

Jim Kelly never attempted 500 passes in a season, his highest ever was 480.

Marino played in nice weather and threw the ball a ton, comparatively, Kelly certainly did not. Hence my statement: "Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo" was 100% on the money.

You could have put a bunch of guys at QB in that nice weather in Miami, gave them Marino's weapons and heaved it 35 times a week. Plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats. However, the argument doesn't work that way does it? The only time its OK to put a QB on a team is when you say Marino would have won a ring if he played somewhere else. Pathetic.

First, if you're going to take the "pet name" angle, this could get a little dicey, kid.Second, you included a very important word in your reply to me that you left out initially...comparatively. From your OP on the subject, our would infer that Buffalo rarely passed the ball during the Kelly era. That just ain't so, sport.

Third - Jim Kelly absolutely benefitted from a pass-happy offense for a good portion of his career; the K-gun was a valuable asset to him - and he ran it out of the freakin' shotgun half the time. If anything, it made him look better than he was, because he was able to use Thurman Thomas on short-to-medium range passes half the time. If you don't know that, you had your nose buried way too deep in your homework, and weren't watching enough games, bucko.

Fourth - bone up on your reading comprehension, and try not to contradict yourself, amigo. I never suggested that QB A would do any better with Team B, or vice-versa. That's a pointless exercise. However, you try to point out that Marino's accomplishments don't really make him that much better than Kelly because Marino benefitted from playing in warm weather and a pass-heavy system. To quote; "you could put a bunch of guys in that system, give them Marino's weapons and...plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats."

Since you went there, Ace, let's take the same scenario and put a little different spin on it.

Let's take ANOTHER QB...say...Jim Kelly...and put him in a nice, perfect condition scorching, humid environment for half his games. Let's give him what Marino had - from a slightly different perspective.

Welcome to Miami, Jim! Oh, by the way...we're taking away Andre Reed, James Lofton, Bill Brooks, Don Beebe and Thurman Thomas. Sure, you get Clayton and Duper - but only for a little over half your career. After that, you get a decent couple years out of Irving Fryar - after which your best option is O.J. McDuffie. So...you'll have to completely change your game up in the early 90s. You'll have to mix it up between Fryar and a backfield receiving combination of Keith Byars, some guy named Terry Kirby, and Tony Paige, who's built like a bowling ball and runs about as fast.

Oh, by the way - your defensive coordinator for a good portion of your career is Tom Olivadotti. We call him "The Sieve." So, anyway...expect to have to make a lot of fourth-quarter comebacks. You know - like the one you did for Buffalo against Houst...oh, no...wait. That was Frank Reich. Nevermind.

Anyway...here's the best part. Everyone KNOWS you're going to pass. Nobody's going to bother to even play against the run, because your best running back during your prime will be some clown named Mark Higgs. So...you'll be passing a lot. Everyone will be looking for it. Safeties will be trying to kill your WR, and cornerbacks will be trying to jump routes on you all day. Make sure you put the ball exactly where only your receiver can catch it, because they're going to be well-covered most of the time.

But, of course, you can do all that, right? You could complete all those passes, win all those games, make all those comebacks, and throw all those touchdowns...even when you had a terrible defense, no running back, and everyone knew you were coming at them through the air. After all...so could any QB that played in Miami.

Not sure what you're tryig to do here... but listing out all of Jim's receivers versus Marino's receivers only shows how bad the talent surrounding Kelly was...And having a bad defense only inflates passing stats, not the other way around.

And on one hand you are saying Kelly benefitted from dumping off the ball to his RBs, but then that was a handicap to Marino? Which is it, a benefit or a handicap - it's not both.

Face it, Marino is overrated because he was in a situation that gave him many more passing opportunities than many other QBs, and had those other QBs been in the same situation, they likely would have performed as well if not better.

I'll clear it up for ya:Thurman Thomas was one of the best pass-catching RB in history. It was a huge benefit to Kelly.

Since we're doing the "it's not both" thing...does it make Dan overrated because he had more passing opportunities, or underrated because every team he played against knew he was going to try and pass on them all day...and he did it successfully anyway?

Face it...he's still one of the greatest QBs of all time. He always will be.

ETA: Regarding the "Bad Defense only inflates passing stats" bit...shouldn't that also inflate interceptions? Why then did Marino only once throw more picks than TDs in a season (last season of his career)? There are only two of the "greatest" QBs who can say the same (Manning, thus far, and Montana), and only one who, so far, has never done it (Brady)

 

[switz]

HK said "You could have put a bunch of guys at QB in that nice weather in Miami, gave them Marino's weapons and heaved it 35 times a week. Plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats"

Ignorance alert!!! Weapons? Duper and Clayton were smurfs and Marino made them who they were. No other QB in history could have accomplished what Marino did on those teams. A matter of fact if it was Montana, the Dolphins would not have even made the SB in 1984 and I think Montana was the best QB ever. What other weapons did he have? No RB to speak of, what about a TE?

HK, you must have some sort of hate for Marino because your comments are so biased and off base it is worthless to discuss.

Feel free to get in the last word

What a joke... Duper and Clayton were not exactly scrub receivers. Were they smurfs? Yes, but alot of teams had smurf receivers those days, it's not like today.There are other QBs who could have done as well, if not better than Marino on that team. Your insistence that no other could just goes to show how biased you are. I would say both MAnnign and Brady could have, Kelly would have. Kelly made Reed look far better than he was, and really had no one else.

I wish I would make the X bigger regarding your statement about Kelly making Reed look better - it was almost certainly vice-versa. Andre Reed was an absolute beast across the middle of the field.Anyway...X...Kelly absolutely had at LEAST as many weapons, if not more. Not even counting solid contributions from Brooks, Copeland, McKeller and Metzelaars....

James Lofton:

1990 buf 35 rec 712 yd 4 td

1991 buf 57 rec 1072 yd 8 td

1992 buf 51 rec 786 yd 6 td

Don Beebe:

1991 buf 32 rec 414 yd 6 td

1992 buf 33 rec 554 yd 2 td

1993 buf 31 rec 504 yd 3 td

1994 buf 40 rec 527 yd 4 td

Chris Burkett:

1986 buf 34 rec 778 yd 4td

1987 buf 56 rec 765 yd 4td

Thurman Thomas:

Career - buf 456 rec 4341 yd 22 td

Your avatar shows your bias... but looking at those numbers, do you actually believe those are good numbers? Beebe's best season was 554 yards? Lofton had one good season, that's all.And yet you're going to post those to try to prove Kelly had more weapons

BTW, Reed was great at the slant, that doesn't mean he wasn't made better by having Kelly as his QB. Ever see a slant go far when the QB couldn't hit the WR in stride, perfectly placed? Me neither.

 

[switz]

Kelly was the better, smarter QB. He just played wasted a number of years in the USFL. Had he gone into the NFL first Marino wouldn't have held a lot of his records. I watched both of them regularly during their heydays...

Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo.

Hold...hold on a second...one of your arguments is that Marino "couldn't get it done," and then you're going to jump on the JIM KELLY bandwagon? That's like saying, "Wow. I'm not so sure I like flying on this Goodyear blimp...let me try the Hindenburg!"ETA: ...and are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that Buffalo wasn't pass-happy during the Kelly era? Please don't tell me you're suggesting that.

Son, you need to do your homework. Marino attempted over 500 passes eleven times in his career. Three times he attempted over 600.

Jim Kelly never attempted 500 passes in a season, his highest ever was 480.

Marino played in nice weather and threw the ball a ton, comparatively, Kelly certainly did not. Hence my statement: "Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo" was 100% on the money.

You could have put a bunch of guys at QB in that nice weather in Miami, gave them Marino's weapons and heaved it 35 times a week. Plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats. However, the argument doesn't work that way does it? The only time its OK to put a QB on a team is when you say Marino would have won a ring if he played somewhere else. Pathetic.

First, if you're going to take the "pet name" angle, this could get a little dicey, kid.Second, you included a very important word in your reply to me that you left out initially...comparatively. From your OP on the subject, our would infer that Buffalo rarely passed the ball during the Kelly era. That just ain't so, sport.

Third - Jim Kelly absolutely benefitted from a pass-happy offense for a good portion of his career; the K-gun was a valuable asset to him - and he ran it out of the freakin' shotgun half the time. If anything, it made him look better than he was, because he was able to use Thurman Thomas on short-to-medium range passes half the time. If you don't know that, you had your nose buried way too deep in your homework, and weren't watching enough games, bucko.

Fourth - bone up on your reading comprehension, and try not to contradict yourself, amigo. I never suggested that QB A would do any better with Team B, or vice-versa. That's a pointless exercise. However, you try to point out that Marino's accomplishments don't really make him that much better than Kelly because Marino benefitted from playing in warm weather and a pass-heavy system. To quote; "you could put a bunch of guys in that system, give them Marino's weapons and...plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats."

Since you went there, Ace, let's take the same scenario and put a little different spin on it.

Let's take ANOTHER QB...say...Jim Kelly...and put him in a nice, perfect condition scorching, humid environment for half his games. Let's give him what Marino had - from a slightly different perspective.

Welcome to Miami, Jim! Oh, by the way...we're taking away Andre Reed, James Lofton, Bill Brooks, Don Beebe and Thurman Thomas. Sure, you get Clayton and Duper - but only for a little over half your career. After that, you get a decent couple years out of Irving Fryar - after which your best option is O.J. McDuffie. So...you'll have to completely change your game up in the early 90s. You'll have to mix it up between Fryar and a backfield receiving combination of Keith Byars, some guy named Terry Kirby, and Tony Paige, who's built like a bowling ball and runs about as fast.

Oh, by the way - your defensive coordinator for a good portion of your career is Tom Olivadotti. We call him "The Sieve." So, anyway...expect to have to make a lot of fourth-quarter comebacks. You know - like the one you did for Buffalo against Houst...oh, no...wait. That was Frank Reich. Nevermind.

Anyway...here's the best part. Everyone KNOWS you're going to pass. Nobody's going to bother to even play against the run, because your best running back during your prime will be some clown named Mark Higgs. So...you'll be passing a lot. Everyone will be looking for it. Safeties will be trying to kill your WR, and cornerbacks will be trying to jump routes on you all day. Make sure you put the ball exactly where only your receiver can catch it, because they're going to be well-covered most of the time.

But, of course, you can do all that, right? You could complete all those passes, win all those games, make all those comebacks, and throw all those touchdowns...even when you had a terrible defense, no running back, and everyone knew you were coming at them through the air. After all...so could any QB that played in Miami.

Not sure what you're tryig to do here... but listing out all of Jim's receivers versus Marino's receivers only shows how bad the talent surrounding Kelly was...And having a bad defense only inflates passing stats, not the other way around.

And on one hand you are saying Kelly benefitted from dumping off the ball to his RBs, but then that was a handicap to Marino? Which is it, a benefit or a handicap - it's not both.

Face it, Marino is overrated because he was in a situation that gave him many more passing opportunities than many other QBs, and had those other QBs been in the same situation, they likely would have performed as well if not better.

I'll clear it up for ya:Thurman Thomas was one of the best pass-catching RB in history. It was a huge benefit to Kelly.

Since we're doing the "it's not both" thing...does it make Dan overrated because he had more passing opportunities, or underrated because every team he played against knew he was going to try and pass on them all day...and he did it successfully anyway?

Face it...he's still one of the greatest QBs of all time. He always will be.

Sure, definitely in the top-50 all time

 

[The Goat]

Kelly was the better, smarter QB. He just played wasted a number of years in the USFL. Had he gone into the NFL first Marino wouldn't have held a lot of his records. I watched both of them regularly during their heydays...

Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo.

Hold...hold on a second...one of your arguments is that Marino "couldn't get it done," and then you're going to jump on the JIM KELLY bandwagon? That's like saying, "Wow. I'm not so sure I like flying on this Goodyear blimp...let me try the Hindenburg!"ETA: ...and are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that Buffalo wasn't pass-happy during the Kelly era? Please don't tell me you're suggesting that.

Son, you need to do your homework. Marino attempted over 500 passes eleven times in his career. Three times he attempted over 600.

Jim Kelly never attempted 500 passes in a season, his highest ever was 480.

Marino played in nice weather and threw the ball a ton, comparatively, Kelly certainly did not. Hence my statement: "Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo" was 100% on the money.

You could have put a bunch of guys at QB in that nice weather in Miami, gave them Marino's weapons and heaved it 35 times a week. Plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats. However, the argument doesn't work that way does it? The only time its OK to put a QB on a team is when you say Marino would have won a ring if he played somewhere else. Pathetic.

First, if you're going to take the "pet name" angle, this could get a little dicey, kid.Second, you included a very important word in your reply to me that you left out initially...comparatively. From your OP on the subject, our would infer that Buffalo rarely passed the ball during the Kelly era. That just ain't so, sport.

Third - Jim Kelly absolutely benefitted from a pass-happy offense for a good portion of his career; the K-gun was a valuable asset to him - and he ran it out of the freakin' shotgun half the time. If anything, it made him look better than he was, because he was able to use Thurman Thomas on short-to-medium range passes half the time. If you don't know that, you had your nose buried way too deep in your homework, and weren't watching enough games, bucko.

Fourth - bone up on your reading comprehension, and try not to contradict yourself, amigo. I never suggested that QB A would do any better with Team B, or vice-versa. That's a pointless exercise. However, you try to point out that Marino's accomplishments don't really make him that much better than Kelly because Marino benefitted from playing in warm weather and a pass-heavy system. To quote; "you could put a bunch of guys in that system, give them Marino's weapons and...plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats."

Since you went there, Ace, let's take the same scenario and put a little different spin on it.

Let's take ANOTHER QB...say...Jim Kelly...and put him in a nice, perfect condition scorching, humid environment for half his games. Let's give him what Marino had - from a slightly different perspective.

Welcome to Miami, Jim! Oh, by the way...we're taking away Andre Reed, James Lofton, Bill Brooks, Don Beebe and Thurman Thomas. Sure, you get Clayton and Duper - but only for a little over half your career. After that, you get a decent couple years out of Irving Fryar - after which your best option is O.J. McDuffie. So...you'll have to completely change your game up in the early 90s. You'll have to mix it up between Fryar and a backfield receiving combination of Keith Byars, some guy named Terry Kirby, and Tony Paige, who's built like a bowling ball and runs about as fast.

Oh, by the way - your defensive coordinator for a good portion of your career is Tom Olivadotti. We call him "The Sieve." So, anyway...expect to have to make a lot of fourth-quarter comebacks. You know - like the one you did for Buffalo against Houst...oh, no...wait. That was Frank Reich. Nevermind.

Anyway...here's the best part. Everyone KNOWS you're going to pass. Nobody's going to bother to even play against the run, because your best running back during your prime will be some clown named Mark Higgs. So...you'll be passing a lot. Everyone will be looking for it. Safeties will be trying to kill your WR, and cornerbacks will be trying to jump routes on you all day. Make sure you put the ball exactly where only your receiver can catch it, because they're going to be well-covered most of the time.

But, of course, you can do all that, right? You could complete all those passes, win all those games, make all those comebacks, and throw all those touchdowns...even when you had a terrible defense, no running back, and everyone knew you were coming at them through the air. After all...so could any QB that played in Miami.

Not sure what you're tryig to do here... but listing out all of Jim's receivers versus Marino's receivers only shows how bad the talent surrounding Kelly was...And having a bad defense only inflates passing stats, not the other way around.

And on one hand you are saying Kelly benefitted from dumping off the ball to his RBs, but then that was a handicap to Marino? Which is it, a benefit or a handicap - it's not both.

Face it, Marino is overrated because he was in a situation that gave him many more passing opportunities than many other QBs, and had those other QBs been in the same situation, they likely would have performed as well if not better.

I'll clear it up for ya:Thurman Thomas was one of the best pass-catching RB in history. It was a huge benefit to Kelly.

Since we're doing the "it's not both" thing...does it make Dan overrated because he had more passing opportunities, or underrated because every team he played against knew he was going to try and pass on them all day...and he did it successfully anyway?

Face it...he's still one of the greatest QBs of all time. He always will be.

Sure, definitely in the top-50 all time

Oh, easily. Kelly might squeak in.

 

[switz]

Kelly was the better, smarter QB. He just played wasted a number of years in the USFL. Had he gone into the NFL first Marino wouldn't have held a lot of his records. I watched both of them regularly during their heydays...

Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo.

Hold...hold on a second...one of your arguments is that Marino "couldn't get it done," and then you're going to jump on the JIM KELLY bandwagon? That's like saying, "Wow. I'm not so sure I like flying on this Goodyear blimp...let me try the Hindenburg!"ETA: ...and are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that Buffalo wasn't pass-happy during the Kelly era? Please don't tell me you're suggesting that.

Son, you need to do your homework. Marino attempted over 500 passes eleven times in his career. Three times he attempted over 600.

Jim Kelly never attempted 500 passes in a season, his highest ever was 480.

Marino played in nice weather and threw the ball a ton, comparatively, Kelly certainly did not. Hence my statement: "Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo" was 100% on the money.

You could have put a bunch of guys at QB in that nice weather in Miami, gave them Marino's weapons and heaved it 35 times a week. Plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats. However, the argument doesn't work that way does it? The only time its OK to put a QB on a team is when you say Marino would have won a ring if he played somewhere else. Pathetic.

First, if you're going to take the "pet name" angle, this could get a little dicey, kid.Second, you included a very important word in your reply to me that you left out initially...comparatively. From your OP on the subject, our would infer that Buffalo rarely passed the ball during the Kelly era. That just ain't so, sport.

Third - Jim Kelly absolutely benefitted from a pass-happy offense for a good portion of his career; the K-gun was a valuable asset to him - and he ran it out of the freakin' shotgun half the time. If anything, it made him look better than he was, because he was able to use Thurman Thomas on short-to-medium range passes half the time. If you don't know that, you had your nose buried way too deep in your homework, and weren't watching enough games, bucko.

Fourth - bone up on your reading comprehension, and try not to contradict yourself, amigo. I never suggested that QB A would do any better with Team B, or vice-versa. That's a pointless exercise. However, you try to point out that Marino's accomplishments don't really make him that much better than Kelly because Marino benefitted from playing in warm weather and a pass-heavy system. To quote; "you could put a bunch of guys in that system, give them Marino's weapons and...plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats."

Since you went there, Ace, let's take the same scenario and put a little different spin on it.

Let's take ANOTHER QB...say...Jim Kelly...and put him in a nice, perfect condition scorching, humid environment for half his games. Let's give him what Marino had - from a slightly different perspective.

Welcome to Miami, Jim! Oh, by the way...we're taking away Andre Reed, James Lofton, Bill Brooks, Don Beebe and Thurman Thomas. Sure, you get Clayton and Duper - but only for a little over half your career. After that, you get a decent couple years out of Irving Fryar - after which your best option is O.J. McDuffie. So...you'll have to completely change your game up in the early 90s. You'll have to mix it up between Fryar and a backfield receiving combination of Keith Byars, some guy named Terry Kirby, and Tony Paige, who's built like a bowling ball and runs about as fast.

Oh, by the way - your defensive coordinator for a good portion of your career is Tom Olivadotti. We call him "The Sieve." So, anyway...expect to have to make a lot of fourth-quarter comebacks. You know - like the one you did for Buffalo against Houst...oh, no...wait. That was Frank Reich. Nevermind.

Anyway...here's the best part. Everyone KNOWS you're going to pass. Nobody's going to bother to even play against the run, because your best running back during your prime will be some clown named Mark Higgs. So...you'll be passing a lot. Everyone will be looking for it. Safeties will be trying to kill your WR, and cornerbacks will be trying to jump routes on you all day. Make sure you put the ball exactly where only your receiver can catch it, because they're going to be well-covered most of the time.

But, of course, you can do all that, right? You could complete all those passes, win all those games, make all those comebacks, and throw all those touchdowns...even when you had a terrible defense, no running back, and everyone knew you were coming at them through the air. After all...so could any QB that played in Miami.

Not sure what you're tryig to do here... but listing out all of Jim's receivers versus Marino's receivers only shows how bad the talent surrounding Kelly was...And having a bad defense only inflates passing stats, not the other way around.

And on one hand you are saying Kelly benefitted from dumping off the ball to his RBs, but then that was a handicap to Marino? Which is it, a benefit or a handicap - it's not both.

Face it, Marino is overrated because he was in a situation that gave him many more passing opportunities than many other QBs, and had those other QBs been in the same situation, they likely would have performed as well if not better.

I'll clear it up for ya:Thurman Thomas was one of the best pass-catching RB in history. It was a huge benefit to Kelly.

Since we're doing the "it's not both" thing...does it make Dan overrated because he had more passing opportunities, or underrated because every team he played against knew he was going to try and pass on them all day...and he did it successfully anyway?

Face it...he's still one of the greatest QBs of all time. He always will be.

Sure, definitely in the top-50 all time

Oh, easily. Kelly might squeak in.

In Kelly's 10 years he played 17 playoff games, in Marino's 16 years he played a whopping 18. Six more years to get 1 more playoff game.

Kelly won 9 of his playoff games, Marino only 8.

Kelly led his team to 4 SuperBowls, Marino once. Neither won a SuperBowl. But think about that, for almost half his career, Kelly led his team to the SuperBowl.

As much as you want to say Marino faced touch D's because the opponents knew Marino was going to throw, Kelly faced touch D's every week because they were all geared up to beat the best team in the AFC.

Oh and Kelly had a better comp % and Y/A.

Marino put up better numbers because in 12 of his 16 years he was top-5 in pass attempts, 5 times he was #1 in pass attempts.

They both put up numbers in the top-50 all time, even though Kelly played almost half as long as Marino.

I guess it's like the Barry versus Emmitt argument. Barry played better, Emmitt played longer.

 

[MarshallRob]

I never realized so many football fans suffer from what can only be described as Marino Derangement Syndrome. So far in this thread I've seen:

1) A Brett Favre fan criticizing Marino for hanging around too long;

2) A Jim Kelly fan criticizing Marino for not coming through in a Super Bowl; and

3) People criticizing Marino for having the gall to be angry at the scabs who crossed the picket line in the 1987 players strike. The scabs destroyed the strike's chances of success, delaying NFL free agency for another 6 years. Regardless of what one thinks of the scabs, I'm quite sure Marino isn't alone in his feelings and, since the players' right to free agency was finally recognized years later, I don't see how those feelings aren't appropriate. The guy honored the picket line while other big stars (Lawrence Taylor, Tony Dorsett, Steve Largent) caved. Clearly he can do no right with some of you.

As I've stated previously, I don't agree with it but you can certainly make a case that Marino is horribly overrated, not close to QB greats like Favre, Elway, and...Jim Kelly (I guess). Whatever. That issue has nothing to do with the original posted question which I found kind of insulting. Marino was a fiery competitor who just wanted to win. Period. Given the talent on his team and great confidence in his own ability he naturally believed his team's best shot of winning was when he was throwing the ball. But he would have been perfectly content to hand off more if that would have gotten him closer to a championship. As proof of this, note that Marino helped talk Jimmy Johnson out of retiring following the 1998 season. The two did not have a good relationship and Johnson made Miami more of a running team, yet Marino persuaded him to come back for another year because he thought Johnson was the coach who could help him get that elusive ring.

One final Marino note: All things considered, I thought Marino played fairly well in Super Bowl XIX (something that cannot be said for most of his teammates. They ran for 25 yards. They gave up 537 yards, still the second highest total ever. Even the punter was terrible). Marino did throw two picks, but they both came with the score already 38-16 and the outcome no longer in doubt.

 

[Jersey35]

I never realized so many football fans suffer from what can only be described as Marino Derangement Syndrome. So far in this thread I've seen:1) A Brett Favre fan criticizing Marino for hanging around too long;2) A Jim Kelly fan criticizing Marino for not coming through in a Super Bowl; and3) People criticizing Marino for having the gall to be angry at the scabs who crossed the picket line in the 1987 players strike. The scabs destroyed the strike's chances of success, delaying NFL free agency for another 6 years. Regardless of what one thinks of the scabs, I'm quite sure Marino isn't alone in his feelings and, since the players' right to free agency was finally recognized years later, I don't see how those feelings aren't appropriate. The guy honored the picket line while other big stars (Lawrence Taylor, Tony Dorsett, Steve Largent) caved. Clearly he can do no right with some of you. As I've stated previously, I don't agree with it but you can certainly make a case that Marino is horribly overrated, not close to QB greats like Favre, Elway, and...Jim Kelly (I guess). Whatever. That issue has nothing to do with the original posted question which I found kind of insulting. Marino was a fiery competitor who just wanted to win. Period. Given the talent on his team and great confidence in his own ability he naturally believed his team's best shot of winning was when he was throwing the ball. But he would have been perfectly content to hand off more if that would have gotten him closer to a championship. As proof of this, note that Marino helped talk Jimmy Johnson out of retiring following the 1998 season. The two did not have a good relationship and Johnson made Miami more of a running team, yet Marino persuaded him to come back for another year because he thought Johnson was the coach who could help him get that elusive ring. One final Marino note: All things considered, I thought Marino played fairly well in Super Bowl XIX (something that cannot be said for most of his teammates. They ran for 25 yards. They gave up 537 yards, still the second highest total ever. Even the punter was terrible). Marino did throw two picks, but they both came with the score already 38-16 and the outcome no longer in doubt.

 

[H.K.]

Second, you included a very important word in your reply to me that you left out initially...comparatively. From your OP on the subject, our would infer that Buffalo rarely passed the ball during the Kelly era. That just ain't so, sport.

Again, son....do your homework.Marino played 242 games and passed 8358 times in his career, passing on average 34.5 times a game.

Kelly played 160 games and passed 4779 times, on average 29.8 per game.

That means on average Marino passed 75 to 80 more times per year than Kelly. That's practically like playing three extra games a season to compile stats.

Given that the rest of your response was based off a flawed, and now disproven, premise. There is no need to even bother with the rest of it.

 

[The Goat]

Second, you included a very important word in your reply to me that you left out initially...comparatively. From your OP on the subject, our would infer that Buffalo rarely passed the ball during the Kelly era. That just ain't so, sport.

Again, son....do your homework.Marino played 242 games and passed 8358 times in his career, passing on average 34.5 times a game.

Kelly played 160 games and passed 4779 times, on average 29.8 per game.

That means on average Marino passed 75 to 80 more times per year than Kelly. That's practically like playing three extra games a season to compile stats.

Given that the rest of your response was based off a flawed, and now disproven, premise. There is no need to even bother with the rest of it.

Okay, Waldo...let's do it your way.To make Jim Kelly's TD passing stats equal Marino's...here's what you have to do.

Give Jim Kelly three extra seasons. Not just games...SEASONS. Then...don't give him his average season...take the BEST SEASON HE EVER HAD...33 TD - and multiply it by three. After all, he had to carry Andre Reed, right?. Now he's even with Marino, right? Well, heck...no.

Hmm. Since this has suddenly turned into a "Let's make excuses for Jim Kelly" thread, we have to figure out why he's not still measuring up. Hey - how about we throw those USFL stats in, too? Tack on another 84 TD against college-level defenses.

Heeeeey...there we go. 237+99+84 = 420. Noe he's even with Dan in TDs.

Now we just have to figure out how a clearly superior QB like Kelly somehow passed for 25,000 fewer yards than Marino. Not sure I can figure that one out as easily.

You can slice the stats any way you like, slick - Kelly comes up short against Marino. It's not really as close as you'd like to make it out to be.

And what premise, specifically, was so dramatically disproven?

 

[spitkickers]

since this thread has nothing to do with the OP's question, annoying factor = 1000

Yet to be discussed in detail: Marino, his current persona/ego affected by Favre/Manning/Brady/etc breaking his precious records - effect of so?

I did not post original topic, so the "effect" of the broken records, if any, on Dan, I suppose is the discussion.

Sorry to try to go back on topic, but I was interested by the original subject. Not whether Dan could have won a ring or not, given a defense or running game or a magical unicorn. Fact is, he did not win a ring. Sure, it affects him. He has what he has. The question was, do they mean more to him because of such?

Reading comprehension is a value.

 

[The Goat]

since this thread has nothing to do with the OP's question, annoying factor = 1000Yet to be discussed in detail: Marino, his current persona/ego affected by Favre/Manning/Brady/etc breaking his precious records - effect of so?I did not post original topic, so the "effect" of the broken records, if any, on Dan, I suppose is the discussion. Sorry to try to go back on topic, but I was interested by the original subject. Not whether Dan could have won a ring or not, given a defense or running game or a magical unicorn. Fact is, he did not win a ring. Sure, it affects him. He has what he has. The question was, do they mean more to him because of such? Reading comprehension is a value.

Point taken, and I held off as long as I could.While I think Dan's a pretty solid citizen, I also believe hsi competetive fire got the better of him at times, so yes, I think it bothers him that people are breaking his records. I also think he'd have traded every single one of them for a ring.

 

[Tau837]

annoying factor = 1000

 

[H.K.]

Okay, Waldo...let's do it your way.

To make Jim Kelly's TD passing stats equal Marino's...here's what you have to do.

Give Jim Kelly three extra seasons. Not just games...SEASONS. Then...don't give him his average season...take the BEST SEASON HE EVER HAD...33 TD - and multiply it by three. After all, he had to carry Andre Reed, right?. Now he's even with Marino, right? Well, heck...no.

Hmm. Since this has suddenly turned into a "Let's make excuses for Jim Kelly" thread, we have to figure out why he's not still measuring up. Hey - how about we throw those USFL stats in, too? Tack on another 84 TD against college-level defenses.

Heeeeey...there we go. 237+99+84 = 420. Noe he's even with Dan in TDs.

Now we just have to figure out how a clearly superior QB like Kelly somehow passed for 25,000 fewer yards than Marino. Not sure I can figure that one out as easily.

You can slice the stats any way you like, slick - Kelly comes up short against Marino. It's not really as close as you'd like to make it out to be.

And what premise, specifically, was so dramatically disproven?

Wow. Just.....wow.Your math is flawed, son. Serious question: What grade are you in? If you haven't covered algebra yet, or done any work with simple word problems then you can use this time as a learning experience.

If Jim Kelly threw 237 TD passes on 4779 attempts, how many TD passes would he have thrown if he passed the ball 8358 times?

We will now solve for "Y", which is the answer to the question.

237 TD passes divided by 4779 attempts = Y TD passes divided by 8358 pass attempts

or

237/4779 = Y /8358

(Now it gets tricky: we need to multiply each side of the equation by 8358)

8358 * (237/4779) = Y

Y = 414.5

Comparatively, Marino threw for 420 TD's compared 414.5. Not exactly a big gap considering Marino had the luxury of playing in a better climate and better receivers.

Now that you have learned how to work with ratios to solve problems, here's a simple practice exercise for you: Take Kelly's amount of passing attempts and figure out Marino's yardage and TD's based off of that number, then see how Marino stacks up versus the all time greats.

Now that the lesson is complete, Marino does deserve credit for actually achieveing his numbers. He was a very good compiler of statistics. Obviously stats were very important to him or he would not have hung on as long as he did or seem as bitter about things as most of his records topple beneath more talented QB's. However, on paper his sheer volume of stats earn him entry into discussion of that second or third tier of best QB's ever.

 

[The Goat]

Okay, Waldo...let's do it your way.

To make Jim Kelly's TD passing stats equal Marino's...here's what you have to do.

Give Jim Kelly three extra seasons. Not just games...SEASONS. Then...don't give him his average season...take the BEST SEASON HE EVER HAD...33 TD - and multiply it by three. After all, he had to carry Andre Reed, right?. Now he's even with Marino, right? Well, heck...no.

Hmm. Since this has suddenly turned into a "Let's make excuses for Jim Kelly" thread, we have to figure out why he's not still measuring up. Hey - how about we throw those USFL stats in, too? Tack on another 84 TD against college-level defenses.

Heeeeey...there we go. 237+99+84 = 420. Noe he's even with Dan in TDs.

Now we just have to figure out how a clearly superior QB like Kelly somehow passed for 25,000 fewer yards than Marino. Not sure I can figure that one out as easily.

You can slice the stats any way you like, slick - Kelly comes up short against Marino. It's not really as close as you'd like to make it out to be.

And what premise, specifically, was so dramatically disproven?

Wow. Just.....wow.Your math is flawed, son. Serious question: What grade are you in? If you haven't covered algebra yet, or done any work with simple word problems then you can use this time as a learning experience.

If Jim Kelly threw 237 TD passes on 4779 attempts, how many TD passes would he have thrown if he passed the ball 8358 times?

We will now solve for "Y", which is the answer to the question.

237 TD passes divided by 4779 attempts = Y TD passes divided by 8358 pass attempts

or

237/4779 = Y /8358

(Now it gets tricky: we need to multiply each side of the equation by 8358)

8358 * (237/4779) = Y

Y = 414.5

Comparatively, Marino threw for 420 TD's compared 414.5. Not exactly a big gap considering Marino had the luxury of playing in a better climate and better receivers.

Now that you have learned how to work with ratios to solve problems, here's a simple practice exercise for you: Take Kelly's amount of passing attempts and figure out Marino's yardage and TD's based off of that number, then see how Marino stacks up versus the all time greats.

Now that the lesson is complete, Marino does deserve credit for actually achieveing his numbers. He was a very good compiler of statistics. Obviously stats were very important to him or he would not have hung on as long as he did or seem as bitter about things as most of his records topple beneath more talented QB's. However, on paper his sheer volume of stats earn him entry into discussion of that second or third tier of best QB's ever.

Good gosh golly, you cute little know-it-all, you...<other retort-based and condescending expressions of how how smart I am and how foolish you are edited for everyone else's sanity>...so, let me get this straight...this is STRICTLY a stats discussion, now? Are we completely eliminating bias? Good. Let's stick to math, then. You want pure stats? Take out the unknown variables like "better receivers" and "better climate," which you're clearly biased on.

Now...let's take a step forward...easy now...and go to PHYSICS...let's ask ourselves..."Can Jim Kelly be in two places at the same time?" The answer is no. Jim Kelly lost two years of his prime to the USFL. This, I'm fairly certain, is not Dan Marino's fault.

So just for kicks...let's figure out how OLD Jim Kelly would have to be to have as many attempts as Dan Marino; let's say he played 17 years instead of 11, and had EXACTLY as many attempts per year as Marino had...and of course to level the playing field, we have to tear Jim Kelly's achilles tendon in the middle of his prime (ouch). Since Kelly played two years in the USFL, he'd have had to play from 1985 to 2001 - and he would have been 41 years old when he approached the record. Would he have made it to 400 TDs with a "better receiver" like Oronde Gadsden in 2000? Would he have kept up a linear statistical trend at such an advanced age? Probably not so much...but...this is a purely statistical discussion, right?

Right. So let's not say, "I'm so sick and tired of hearing about how Dan Marino would have won a SB with another team...you can't prove it," then claim something to the effect of, "HA, IDIOT! I HAVE MATHEMATICALLY PROVEN THAT JIM KELLY WOULD BE STATISCITALLY SUPERIOR TO DAN MARINO IF HE HAD PLAYED IN MIAMI, NEVER BEEN IN THE USFL, HAD DIFFERENT RECEIVERS, AND PLAYED IN A CLIMATE WITH LESS SNOW!" It's contradictory, pretentious, and insulting to algebra teachers nationwide.

While we're at it, let's take all your comments like "Dan just hung on so long to set records" and toss those out the window, too. Riddle me this, math guy...if Dan Marino had just wanted records, why didn't he retire after he broke Fran Tarkenton's records? He didn't just break Takenton's records near the end of his career, as Favre is doing to Marino's records now...he demolished them.

Could it be...just maybe...that he valued a championship above everything else? Quite possibly. Until you can prove otherwise with a calculator, please stop presenting your opinions as facts, then donning your professor cap and chiding anyone who disagrees with you.

Or...actually...you can keep doing that. It's kinda amusing. Is it time for recess yet, teach?

 

[H.K.]

Right. So let's not say, "I'm so sick and tired of hearing about how Dan Marino would have won a SB with another team...you can't prove it," then claim something to the effect of, "HA, IDIOT! I HAVE MATHEMATICALLY PROVEN THAT JIM KELLY WOULD BE STATISCITALLY SUPERIOR TO DAN MARINO IF HE HAD PLAYED IN MIAMI, NEVER BEEN IN THE USFL, HAD DIFFERENT RECEIVERS, AND PLAYED IN A CLIMATE WITH LESS SNOW!" .

Exactly the response expected from a Marino apologist. Marino played lousy in his only SB appearance and never played well enough to return, however, it is OK to say he could gave won a Super Bowl because if he played for a better team. You people state it like its fact. It's really, really, sad. All we know is the one time he got there, he failed.However, it is not acceptable to demonstrate his stats were a result of the sheer volume of passing attempts he made. Most other top QB's of his era would have put up similar numbers if they palyed for such an aerial circus. You guys don't like it because it destroys your straw man arguments. You have made it clear that hypotheticals only work one way for you, so feel good about yourself knowing you have proved your point.

 

[The Goat]

Right. So let's not say, "I'm so sick and tired of hearing about how Dan Marino would have won a SB with another team...you can't prove it," then claim something to the effect of, "HA, IDIOT! I HAVE MATHEMATICALLY PROVEN THAT JIM KELLY WOULD BE STATISCITALLY SUPERIOR TO DAN MARINO IF HE HAD PLAYED IN MIAMI, NEVER BEEN IN THE USFL, HAD DIFFERENT RECEIVERS, AND PLAYED IN A CLIMATE WITH LESS SNOW!" .

Exactly the response expected from a Marino apologist. Marino played lousy in his only SB appearance and never played well enough to return, however, it is OK to say he could gave won a Super Bowl because if he played for a better team. You people state it like its fact. It's really, really, sad. All we know is the one time he got there, he failed.However, it is not acceptable to demonstrate his stats were a result of the sheer volume of passing attempts he made. Most other top QB's of his era would have put up similar numbers if they palyed for such an aerial circus. You guys don't like it because it destroys your straw man arguments.

You have made it clear that hypotheticals only work one way for you, so feel good about yourself knowing you have proved your point.

Are you really missing it that badly? I'm not the one using hypothetical situations...you are. Here it is again "Most other top QB's of his era would have put up similar numbers if they palyed for such an aerial circus."Show me one instance where I made a hypothetical to Dan Marino's benefit. One. Ready for what you missed? I stated very clearly that I do NOT feel that he's the best QB of all time. He couldn't sell a play-action pass to save his life...and in the long run, I think that's what hurt him more than anything. Would he have won a SB with Buffalo's offense? Possibly...but we'll never know.

What's frustrating is the sentiment in this thread that he really wasn't anything special, that you could have plugged Ken O'Brien into that offense, given him the same amount of attempts, and viola! Exact same numbers! Anyone who watched Marino play during his prime knows that's an absolutely ridiculous statement. Would Kelly have had better numbers than he did in Buffalo? Possibly. Would his numbers have been better than Marino's? I seriously doubt it.

Again, we can do stats until the cows come home, but there's only ONE QB playing today that I feel could make the kind of throws Dan made consistently; that's Peyton Manning. Interestingly enough, I also don't think Peyton's the best QB playing today...but he's clearly one of the best of all-time.

 

[switz]

I don't think you are coming across the way you'd really like people to think of you.

Now...let's take a step forward...easy now...and go to PHYSICS...let's ask ourselves..."Can Jim Kelly be in two places at the same time?" The answer is no. Jim Kelly lost two years of his prime to the USFL. This, I'm fairly certain, is not Dan Marino's fault.

I don't think anyone said it was Marino's fault. However, the argument is IF he had played in the NFL as long as Marino had, where would he have ranked, right? So what if Kelly did NOT go to the USFL, since we are talking hypotheses, then physics as you state, really don't apply.Say Kelly started in the NFL in 1983 when he was drafted, and played as many seasons as Marino - that's the hypothesis. Pretty simple, I would think.

So just for kicks...let's figure out how OLD Jim Kelly would have to be to have as many attempts as Dan Marino; let's say he played 17 years instead of 11, and had EXACTLY as many attempts per year as Marino had...and of course to level the playing field, we have to tear Jim Kelly's achilles tendon in the middle of his prime (ouch). Since Kelly played two years in the USFL, he'd have had to play from 1985 to 2001 - and he would have been 41 years old when he approached the record. Would he have made it to 400 TDs with a "better receiver" like Oronde Gadsden in 2000? Would he have kept up a linear statistical trend at such an advanced age? Probably not so much...but...this is a purely statistical discussion, right?

With the hypothesis above, Kelly (born in 1960) would have been 39 when he retired, compared to Marino's 38. I'm not sure what point you are making about age anyway, but as you can see, the difference between the two is extremely minor.Given that Kelly did NOT pass as much as Marino did, he would be hard pressed to have put up the same stats, but when we look at Kelly's production per opportunity, we can draw some conclusions. If Kelly passed as many times as Marino did, he by extrapolation would have thrown 414.5 TDs. I think you'd agree that 5.5 TDs over 16 or 17 seasons is pretty miniscule.Now as Kelly put up greater Y/A (that's yards per attempt) it's easy to see he would have bested Marino's yardage numbers on the same number of attempts.Kelly also had a greater completion percentage, so it's clear that given as many passes, he also would have more completions than Marino.Now it longevity something to be admired? For a certainty. But just playing a long time does not make one better than a player with a shorter career. Barry is better than Emmit. Kelly is better than Marino.

 

[switz]

Would Kelly have had better numbers than he did in Buffalo? Possibly. Would his numbers have been better than Marino's? I seriously doubt it.

The problem is that when it all gets boiled down, Kelly DID put up better numbers per attempt than Marino, except in TDs where Marino has the smallest of edges.

 

[The Goat]

I don't think anyone said it was Marino's fault. However, the argument is IF he had played in the NFL as long as Marino had, where would he have ranked, right? So what if Kelly did NOT go to the USFL, since we are talking hypotheses, then physics as you state, really don't apply.

Say Kelly started in the NFL in 1983 when he was drafted, and played as many seasons as Marino - that's the hypothesis. Pretty simple, I would think.

I'm not really the one who wanted to do the hypothetical thing, but it's just not as simple as you'd like to make it out to be - say Kelly comes in to Buffalo in 1983 - he plays behind Joe Ferguson for most of that year, and he has no Andre Reed for a couple of those years. But...see my previous post. It's absolutely impossible to say "woulda, shoulda" about this - if Jim Kelly had played for Miami instead of Marino, there are hypotheticals about what couldhave happened. They're no more valid than the hypotheticals about what Marino would have done if he played for San Francisco.By the way...if this "hypothesis" is carried out to its logical conclusion...the greatest passer of all time is Warren Moon...and it's not close.

With the hypothesis above, Kelly (born in 1960) would have been 39 when he retired, compared to Marino's 38. I'm not sure what point you are making about age anyway, but as you can see, the difference between the two is extremely minor.

Given that Kelly did NOT pass as much as Marino did, he would be hard pressed to have put up the same stats, but when we look at Kelly's production per opportunity, we can draw some conclusions. If Kelly passed as many times as Marino did, he by extrapolation would have thrown 414.5 TDs. I think you'd agree that 5.5 TDs over 16 or 17 seasons is pretty miniscule.

Now as Kelly put up greater Y/A (that's yards per attempt) it's easy to see he would have bested Marino's yardage numbers on the same number of attempts.

Kelly also had a greater completion percentage, so it's clear that given as many passes, he also would have more completions than Marino.

Now it longevity something to be admired? For a certainty. But just playing a long time does not make one better than a player with a shorter career. Barry is better than Emmit. Kelly is better than Marino.

This is getting silly. Again, if Kelly HAD the same amount of opportunities Marino had, would he have kept up that same rate? No.But, fine...if we're gonna make it fair...let's REALLY make it fair.

We're extrapolating Jim Kelly's career NFL numbers, then basically equating them out so he had the same amount of attempts that Marino had for his whole career. This is not taking into account any injury, or decline from aging, etc.

Fine. Then you have to take Marino's stats for the first 11 years of HIS career and extrapolate those numbers out, too. NOW what are Dan's numbers? His y/a and completion percentage dropped off pretty significantly at the end of his career...just like Kelly's would have. I honestly don't have time to do this right now...but I may tonight.

Regarding the Emmitt/Barry analogy...it's also flawed. Barry's career numbers are MUCH closer to Emmitt's than Kelly's are to Marino's.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Kelly was the better, smarter QB. He just played wasted a number of years in the USFL. Had he gone into the NFL first Marino wouldn't have held a lot of his records. I watched both of them regularly during their heydays...

Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo.

Hold...hold on a second...one of your arguments is that Marino "couldn't get it done," and then you're going to jump on the JIM KELLY bandwagon? That's like saying, "Wow. I'm not so sure I like flying on this Goodyear blimp...let me try the Hindenburg!"ETA: ...and are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that Buffalo wasn't pass-happy during the Kelly era? Please don't tell me you're suggesting that.

Son, you need to do your homework. Marino attempted over 500 passes eleven times in his career. Three times he attempted over 600.

Jim Kelly never attempted 500 passes in a season, his highest ever was 480.

Marino played in nice weather and threw the ball a ton, comparatively, Kelly certainly did not. Hence my statement: "Not to mention Marino played in pass happy Miami and Kelly was playing in the snow in Buffalo" was 100% on the money.

You could have put a bunch of guys at QB in that nice weather in Miami, gave them Marino's weapons and heaved it 35 times a week. Plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats. However, the argument doesn't work that way does it? The only time its OK to put a QB on a team is when you say Marino would have won a ring if he played somewhere else. Pathetic.

First, if you're going to take the "pet name" angle, this could get a little dicey, kid.Second, you included a very important word in your reply to me that you left out initially...comparatively. From your OP on the subject, our would infer that Buffalo rarely passed the ball during the Kelly era. That just ain't so, sport.

Third - Jim Kelly absolutely benefitted from a pass-happy offense for a good portion of his career; the K-gun was a valuable asset to him - and he ran it out of the freakin' shotgun half the time. If anything, it made him look better than he was, because he was able to use Thurman Thomas on short-to-medium range passes half the time. If you don't know that, you had your nose buried way too deep in your homework, and weren't watching enough games, bucko.

Fourth - bone up on your reading comprehension, and try not to contradict yourself, amigo. I never suggested that QB A would do any better with Team B, or vice-versa. That's a pointless exercise. However, you try to point out that Marino's accomplishments don't really make him that much better than Kelly because Marino benefitted from playing in warm weather and a pass-heavy system. To quote; "you could put a bunch of guys in that system, give them Marino's weapons and...plenty of guys would have compiled awesome stats."

Since you went there, Ace, let's take the same scenario and put a little different spin on it.

Let's take ANOTHER QB...say...Jim Kelly...and put him in a nice, perfect condition scorching, humid environment for half his games. Let's give him what Marino had - from a slightly different perspective.

Welcome to Miami, Jim! Oh, by the way...we're taking away Andre Reed, James Lofton, Bill Brooks, Don Beebe and Thurman Thomas. Sure, you get Clayton and Duper - but only for a little over half your career. After that, you get a decent couple years out of Irving Fryar - after which your best option is O.J. McDuffie. So...you'll have to completely change your game up in the early 90s. You'll have to mix it up between Fryar and a backfield receiving combination of Keith Byars, some guy named Terry Kirby, and Tony Paige, who's built like a bowling ball and runs about as fast.

Oh, by the way - your defensive coordinator for a good portion of your career is Tom Olivadotti. We call him "The Sieve." So, anyway...expect to have to make a lot of fourth-quarter comebacks. You know - like the one you did for Buffalo against Houst...oh, no...wait. That was Frank Reich. Nevermind.

Anyway...here's the best part. Everyone KNOWS you're going to pass. Nobody's going to bother to even play against the run, because your best running back during your prime will be some clown named Mark Higgs. So...you'll be passing a lot. Everyone will be looking for it. Safeties will be trying to kill your WR, and cornerbacks will be trying to jump routes on you all day. Make sure you put the ball exactly where only your receiver can catch it, because they're going to be well-covered most of the time.

But, of course, you can do all that, right? You could complete all those passes, win all those games, make all those comebacks, and throw all those touchdowns...even when you had a terrible defense, no running back, and everyone knew you were coming at them through the air. After all...so could any QB that played in Miami.

Not sure what you're tryig to do here... but listing out all of Jim's receivers versus Marino's receivers only shows how bad the talent surrounding Kelly was...And having a bad defense only inflates passing stats, not the other way around.

And on one hand you are saying Kelly benefitted from dumping off the ball to his RBs, but then that was a handicap to Marino? Which is it, a benefit or a handicap - it's not both.

Face it, Marino is overrated because he was in a situation that gave him many more passing opportunities than many other QBs, and had those other QBs been in the same situation, they likely would have performed as well if not better.

I'll clear it up for ya:Thurman Thomas was one of the best pass-catching RB in history. It was a huge benefit to Kelly.

Since we're doing the "it's not both" thing...does it make Dan overrated because he had more passing opportunities, or underrated because every team he played against knew he was going to try and pass on them all day...and he did it successfully anyway?

Face it...he's still one of the greatest QBs of all time. He always will be.

Sure, definitely in the top-50 all time

Switz, you are so off base here and before, the discussion is virtually worthless. But I will make some points. Thurman Thomas was an absolute beast (4 years in a row he was #1 in yards from scrimmage) and that garnered a ton of attention from defenses. Having a solid defense, Thomas and Reed allowed this Buffalo team to be incredibly successful. Kelly was a pretty good QB, but he is not even close to the class of Marino and the top 10 all time.

This is only one game and maybe means nothing, but when they played the Giants in the SuperBowl they were 8 point favorites and they didn't get it done. (BTW, do you think Marino and his medicore D and no running attack were favored against the niners...no) One of the main reasons Buffalo lost was because Kelly didn't call enough runs as Thomas was tearing them apart. For some reason, Kelly decided he would try and be the man instead of giving the ball to Thurman more than 15 times. in those 15 carries, Thurman had 135 yards! yet Kelly threw 30 times for only 212 yards (55 of them to Thurman). Kelly was calling the plays and he screwed up royally.

BTW, Jim Kelly in the postseason threw 20 TD's and had 28 picks in his career!

I can't believe this is even a discussion as I have never heard anyone put Kelly even close to Marino's level

 

[Liquid Tension]

I never realized so many football fans suffer from what can only be described as Marino Derangement Syndrome. So far in this thread I've seen:1) A Brett Favre fan criticizing Marino for hanging around too long;2) A Jim Kelly fan criticizing Marino for not coming through in a Super Bowl; and3) People criticizing Marino for having the gall to be angry at the scabs who crossed the picket line in the 1987 players strike. The scabs destroyed the strike's chances of success, delaying NFL free agency for another 6 years. Regardless of what one thinks of the scabs, I'm quite sure Marino isn't alone in his feelings and, since the players' right to free agency was finally recognized years later, I don't see how those feelings aren't appropriate. The guy honored the picket line while other big stars (Lawrence Taylor, Tony Dorsett, Steve Largent) caved. Clearly he can do no right with some of you. As I've stated previously, I don't agree with it but you can certainly make a case that Marino is horribly overrated, not close to QB greats like Favre, Elway, and...Jim Kelly (I guess). Whatever. That issue has nothing to do with the original posted question which I found kind of insulting. Marino was a fiery competitor who just wanted to win. Period. Given the talent on his team and great confidence in his own ability he naturally believed his team's best shot of winning was when he was throwing the ball. But he would have been perfectly content to hand off more if that would have gotten him closer to a championship. As proof of this, note that Marino helped talk Jimmy Johnson out of retiring following the 1998 season. The two did not have a good relationship and Johnson made Miami more of a running team, yet Marino persuaded him to come back for another year because he thought Johnson was the coach who could help him get that elusive ring. One final Marino note: All things considered, I thought Marino played fairly well in Super Bowl XIX (something that cannot be said for most of his teammates. They ran for 25 yards. They gave up 537 yards, still the second highest total ever. Even the punter was terrible). Marino did throw two picks, but they both came with the score already 38-16 and the outcome no longer in doubt.

Just pointing out that you can make a case for anyone being totally overrated if you wanted to...but you could be wrong

 

[Liquid Tension]

"Exactly the response expected from a Marino apologist. Marino played lousy in his only SB appearance and never played well enough to return, however, it is OK to say he could gave won a Super Bowl because if he played for a better team. You people state it like its fact. It's really, really, sad. All we know is the one time he got there, he failed."

One of the dumbest quotes I have seen around here and it is used because the person is so insecure they have to use hyperbolic false statements to prove their point.

To set the record straight, Marino was the only member of the Dolphins team that played well during the game. they rushed for 25 yards and the defense allowed the 2nd most yards in the history of the Super Bowl. Marino was playing very well and when the game was over (late), he threw 2 picks in desperation.

You surely wouldn't get that from the above would you? Yeah he is a loser that never got back there So if Elway never got the luxury of having the #1 rushing attack in Terrell Davis (and then winning two SB's), he would have been a failure and a loser as well?

Ignorance is everywhere!