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Doc Who Tied Vaccine to Autism Ruled Unethical (1 Viewer)

As with school shootings, we're going to need to sacrifice a lot more lives of innocent children before we come to our collective senses and pay attention to facts.

 
Saw a hillarious Tweet from a mom of non-vax kids who is very worried abouthe Measles outbreak going around and is looking to see if anyone has any suggestions to prevent her kid from getting the measles. Hopefully Jenny McCarthy will be able to get back to her on this issue. 

 
Ilov80s said:
Impossible to say but if someone is dumb enough not vaccinate their kid, I wouldn't put that tweet past them.
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See, this is what's so interesting about this subject. I live near Forestville, CA. It's the least vaccinated spot in the U.S. And I say this as a pinko liberal, these educated pinko liberals have a blind spot about vaccines. They mock conservatives for not trusting global warming science, but liberals ignore the science about vaccines. 

 
jdoggydogg said:
See, this is what's so interesting about this subject. I live near Forestville, CA. It's the least vaccinated spot in the U.S. And I say this as a pinko liberal, these educated pinko liberals have a blind spot about vaccines. They mock conservatives for not trusting global warming science, but liberals ignore the science about vaccines. 
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It is fascinating. I know some very wealthy and successful people around here who are liberal BUT have very irrational GMOs, vaccination, food takes. One woman takes her whole kitchen wherever she goes. If she is taking the family to the in-laws, she brings all her own cookware, pots, utensils, etc. because she is convinced normal kitchen supplies are loaded with some chemicals that will poison her kids. She also is homeschooling all 6 of her kids because she felt the expensive private school that is blocks from her house wasn't good enough. 

 
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Ilov80s said:
It is fascinating. I know some very wealthy and successful people around here who are liberal BUT have very irrational GMOs, vaccination, food takes. One woman takes her whole kitchen wherever she goes. If she is taking the family to the in-laws, she brings all her own cookware, pots, utensils, etc. because she is convinced normal kitchen supplies are loaded with some chemicals that will poison her kids. She also is homeschooling all 6 of her kids because she felt the expensive private school that is blocks from her house wasn't good enough. 
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I'd attribute this Maslow's hierarchy of needs. 500 years ago, all we had time for was storing enough meat and firewood to survive. Now that our survival is certain, we focus our attention on gluten and fluoride in the water. That same mom you mentioned drives her kids around in a car, and that is by far the most dangerous thing most people do in a day. 

 
jdoggydogg said:
I'd attribute this Maslow's hierarchy of needs. 500 years ago, all we had time for was storing enough meat and firewood to survive. Now that our survival is certain, we focus our attention on gluten and fluoride in the water. That same mom you mentioned drives her kids around in a car, and that is by far the most dangerous thing most people do in a day. 
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She is also just an awful person who I think likes to find ways to bother other people. Her husband got her a birthday gift of 4 days totally paid for with her best friend at a very nice resort in the Mayan Riviera while he stayed home to watch all the kids. He said it's been 3 years and he still hasn't heard the last of it (all the things he did wrong when he taking care of the kids and she wishes it had been Belize instead of Mexico). So in some regards I think the home schooling and anti-vax is her way of proving how much smarter and better she is than others. 

 
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Ilov80s said:
She is also just an awful person who I think likes to find ways to bother other people. Her husband got her a birthday gift of 4 days totally paid for with her best friend at a very nice resort in the Mayan Riviera while he stayed home to watch all the kids. He said it's been 3 years and he still hasn't heard the last of it (all the things he did wrong when he taking care of the kids and she wishes it had been Belize instead of Mexico). So in some regards I think the home schooling and anti-vax is her way of proving how much smarter and better she is than others. 
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There is clearly a nun/monk thing associated with this.  Depriving yourself is seen as a virtue in some minds.  Couple that with a broken risk assessment processing and we get measles. 

 
Ilov80s said:
It is fascinating. I know some very wealthy and successful people around here who are liberal BUT have very irrational GMOs, vaccination, food takes. One woman takes her whole kitchen wherever she goes. If she is taking the family to the in-laws, she brings all her own cookware, pots, utensils, etc. because she is convinced normal kitchen supplies are loaded with some chemicals that will poison her kids. She also is homeschooling all 6 of her kids because she felt the expensive private school that is blocks from her house wasn't good enough. 
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This reminds me of something i just saw on facebook. Woman i went to high school with is an atty. Her husband is a doctor. From what i know of her she is pretty bright and certainly very successful. 

She out of nowhere was ranting about some chemical found in fabric softener causing cancer. She bought these weird dryer balls. Was blasting febreeze, etc etc. I looked up the chemical and there was one study that showed it causes cancer in rats. WHEN THEY ATE IT REPEATEDLY. 

 
jdoggydogg said:
See, this is what's so interesting about this subject. I live near Forestville, CA. It's the least vaccinated spot in the U.S. And I say this as a pinko liberal, these educated pinko liberals have a blind spot about vaccines. They mock conservatives for not trusting global warming science, but liberals ignore the science about vaccines. 
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It's not the educated pinko liberals responsible for the outbreaks in Clark County Washington (close to Portland)....it's a close knit church of Russian parishioners whose mistrust of vaccinations dates back to Soviet times.  I know that there are pinko liberals who are also dubious of vaccinations, but that's certainly not the case here.   

 
Ilov80s said:
She is also just an awful person who I think likes to find ways to bother other people. Her husband got her a birthday gift of 4 days totally paid for with her best friend at a very nice resort in the Mayan Riviera while he stayed home to watch all the kids. He said it's been 3 years and he still hasn't heard the last of it (all the things he did wrong when he taking care of the kids and she wishes it had been Belize instead of Mexico). So in some regards I think the home schooling and anti-vax is her way of proving how much smarter and better she is than others. 
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Obsessing over imaginary nonsense - be it religion, Echinacea, ghosts or UFOs is just a coping mechanism. A thing to focus your attention on rather than your inevitable, creeping non-existence. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
This reminds me of something i just saw on facebook. Woman i went to high school with is an atty. Her husband is a doctor. From what i know of her she is pretty bright and certainly very successful. 

She out of nowhere was ranting about some chemical found in fabric softener causing cancer. She bought these weird dryer balls. Was blasting febreeze, etc etc. I looked up the chemical and there was one study that showed it causes cancer in rats. WHEN THEY ATE IT REPEATEDLY. 
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We live in an age riddled with chemicals. So freaking out about one specific toxin isn't as effective as moving to a remote island and staying there for your entire life. 

 
General Malaise said:
It's not the educated pinko liberals responsible for the outbreaks in Clark County Washington (close to Portland)....it's a close knit church of Russian parishioners whose mistrust of vaccinations dates back to Soviet times.  I know that there are pinko liberals who are also dubious of vaccinations, but that's certainly not the case here.   
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Certainly, there are certain religious groups that do not allow medicine. But I'm just pointing out that educated liberals are largely responsible for this trend. 

 
jdoggydogg said:
We live in an age riddled with chemicals. So freaking out about one specific toxin isn't as effective as moving to a remote island and staying there for your entire life. 
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Plus it misses out on the most basic chemistry. Everything is a chemical. 

 
Ilov80s said:
Plus it misses out on the most basic chemistry. Everything is a chemical. 
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Let's face it, this country is full of amateur nutritionists and scientists. And they are misinformed and often ignore data. I mean just look at the use of the term "all natural." The sun is all natural, and yet you can get some pretty brutal cancer from it.

 
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Officer Pete Malloy said:
bUt hE neVEr G0t tEH aUTiSmS! cHecKMaTe, sHeEP
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That story is just wild. The kid almost died, spent 2 months in the hospital, cost the family $80k in medical bills and they still won’t let their kid get a vaccine. They should be ostracized from society.

 
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They're hella stupid and trying to have a discussion about vaccines with an antivaxxer is an exercise in futility.  

 
msommer said:
Vaccinations should be a prerequisite for health care/insurance coverage
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As an owner of a pediatric practice I, along with a few of my partners, have been pushing to not accept new patients whose parents refuse vaccines and dismiss current families that do the same.  Many pediatric practices do this now.  We are having difficulty convincing all the partners on this issue.

Initially I was not in favor of this policy either, thinking that over time and with repeated visits for well check-ups, I may be able to convince these parents to vaccinate. They trust my advice on everything else regarding their child's health, so why not vaccines?  Sadly, this has proven to be essentially fruitless and I've now been swayed. 

I have more and more parents who do vaccinate their children (the large majority) ask me if we restrict non-vaxxers from the practice due to concerns for their infants or immunocompromised children potentially being exposed to vaccine-preventable diseases.  

 
The Dreaded Marco said:
As an owner of a pediatric practice I, along with a few of my partners, have been pushing to not accept new patients whose parents refuse vaccines and dismiss current families that do the same.  Many pediatric practices do this now.  We are having difficulty convincing all the partners on this issue.

Initially I was not in favor of this policy either, thinking that over time and with repeated visits for well check-ups, I may be able to convince these parents to vaccinate. They trust my advice on everything else regarding their child's health, so why not vaccines?  Sadly, this has proven to be essentially fruitless and I've now been swayed. 

I have more and more parents who do vaccinate their children (the large majority) ask me if we restrict non-vaxxers from the practice due to concerns for their infants or immunocompromised children potentially being exposed to vaccine-preventable diseases.  
Click to expand...
Another one who agrees with you.

 
The Dreaded Marco said:
As an owner of a pediatric practice I, along with a few of my partners, have been pushing to not accept new patients whose parents refuse vaccines and dismiss current families that do the same.  Many pediatric practices do this now.  We are having difficulty convincing all the partners on this issue.

Initially I was not in favor of this policy either, thinking that over time and with repeated visits for well check-ups, I may be able to convince these parents to vaccinate. They trust my advice on everything else regarding their child's health, so why not vaccines?  Sadly, this has proven to be essentially fruitless and I've now been swayed. 

I have more and more parents who do vaccinate their children (the large majority) ask me if we restrict non-vaxxers from the practice due to concerns for their infants or immunocompromised children potentially being exposed to vaccine-preventable diseases.  
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And another doctor taking a stand.

Will you share where you are in the country?  Also, what % of your families are anti-vaxxers?  Is that higher than the general population because you still treat them?

Thx

 
The Dreaded Marco said:
As an owner of a pediatric practice I, along with a few of my partners, have been pushing to not accept new patients whose parents refuse vaccines and dismiss current families that do the same.  Many pediatric practices do this now.  We are having difficulty convincing all the partners on this issue.

Initially I was not in favor of this policy either, thinking that over time and with repeated visits for well check-ups, I may be able to convince these parents to vaccinate. They trust my advice on everything else regarding their child's health, so why not vaccines?  Sadly, this has proven to be essentially fruitless and I've now been swayed. 

I have more and more parents who do vaccinate their children (the large majority) ask me if we restrict non-vaxxers from the practice due to concerns for their infants or immunocompromised children potentially being exposed to vaccine-preventable diseases.  
Click to expand...
You’re doing good work, brother.

 
The Dreaded Marco said:
As an owner of a pediatric practice I, along with a few of my partners, have been pushing to not accept new patients whose parents refuse vaccines and dismiss current families that do the same.  Many pediatric practices do this now.  We are having difficulty convincing all the partners on this issue.

Initially I was not in favor of this policy either, thinking that over time and with repeated visits for well check-ups, I may be able to convince these parents to vaccinate. They trust my advice on everything else regarding their child's health, so why not vaccines?  Sadly, this has proven to be essentially fruitless and I've now been swayed. 

I have more and more parents who do vaccinate their children (the large majority) ask me if we restrict non-vaxxers from the practice due to concerns for their infants or immunocompromised children potentially being exposed to vaccine-preventable diseases.  
Click to expand...
I seriously commend you for this because I know it can't be easy when all you are trying to do is uphold your Oath and do what's best for the child. 

NSFW language

You might have come across this before but it is a interesting vaccinations comedy bit.  Pretty sure real life story.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OaSlo8tKEp0

 
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The Dreaded Marco said:
As an owner of a pediatric practice I, along with a few of my partners, have been pushing to not accept new patients whose parents refuse vaccines and dismiss current families that do the same.  Many pediatric practices do this now.  We are having difficulty convincing all the partners on this issue.

Initially I was not in favor of this policy either, thinking that over time and with repeated visits for well check-ups, I may be able to convince these parents to vaccinate. They trust my advice on everything else regarding their child's health, so why not vaccines?  Sadly, this has proven to be essentially fruitless and I've now been swayed. 

I have more and more parents who do vaccinate their children (the large majority) ask me if we restrict non-vaxxers from the practice due to concerns for their infants or immunocompromised children potentially being exposed to vaccine-preventable diseases.  
Click to expand...
There's a meme making the rounds on FB with an elderly lady doctor and a young woman. The elderly doctor is holding the young womans hands and asks "does it hurt?" - reply "yes"

Next picture, same situation and the caption is "Are we vaccinating your child or should I slap you again?"

 
The Dreaded Marco said:
As an owner of a pediatric practice I, along with a few of my partners, have been pushing to not accept new patients whose parents refuse vaccines and dismiss current families that do the same.  Many pediatric practices do this now.  We are having difficulty convincing all the partners on this issue.

Initially I was not in favor of this policy either, thinking that over time and with repeated visits for well check-ups, I may be able to convince these parents to vaccinate. They trust my advice on everything else regarding their child's health, so why not vaccines?  Sadly, this has proven to be essentially fruitless and I've now been swayed. 

I have more and more parents who do vaccinate their children (the large majority) ask me if we restrict non-vaxxers from the practice due to concerns for their infants or immunocompromised children potentially being exposed to vaccine-preventable diseases.  
Click to expand...
I still struggle with this.

Unfortunately, I believe two things to be true.

1. Dismissing families who refuse or delay vaccinations will not improve vaccination rates.

2. Including unvaccinated and under-vaccinated families in a practice puts all families in the practice at risk.

As frustrated as I am with the second concern, I'm still swayed by the first. I may not always be successful at improving vaccination rates in my own practice -- but I know I'm trying rather than risking funneling these families to practices where other providers may not make the same effort.

And I feel like I'm seeing the tide turn a bit. I think our practice is successful in getting folks on the fence to choose vaccination. Like you, I'm now getting nearly as many questions from families who vaccinate about what we (and they) can do about families who do not vaccinate. I may have had that discussion once a year previously.

I'm seeing more and more folks supportive of vaccination on Facebook and Twitter actively combat misinformation with helpful links and data than ever before. Families now seem to know -- and are sharing with others -- the truth about Wakefield and the facts about mercury/adjuvants/preservatives. Some even have a working understanding of how the number of antigens has greatly decreased (to combat the "there's too many shots" argument).

Unfortunately, it's taken yet another measles outbreak for this to happen. But it's happening.

 
Jene Bramel said:
I still struggle with this.

Unfortunately, I believe two things to be true.

1. Dismissing families who refuse or delay vaccinations will not improve vaccination rates.





2. Including unvaccinated and under-vaccinated families in a practice puts all families in the practice at risk.

As frustrated as I am with the second concern, I'm still swayed by the first. I may not always be successful at improving vaccination rates in my own practice -- but I know I'm trying rather than risking funneling these families to practices where other providers may not make the same effort.

And I feel like I'm seeing the tide turn a bit. I think our practice is successful in getting folks on the fence to choose vaccination. Like you, I'm now getting nearly as many questions from families who vaccinate about what we (and they) can do about families who do not vaccinate. I may have had that discussion once a year previously.

I'm seeing more and more folks supportive of vaccination on Facebook and Twitter actively combat misinformation with helpful links and data than ever before. Families now seem to know -- and are sharing with others -- the truth about Wakefield and the facts about mercury/adjuvants/preservatives. Some even have a working understanding of how the number of antigens has greatly decreased (to combat the "there's too many shots" argument).

Unfortunately, it's taken yet another measles outbreak for this to happen. But it's happening.
Click to expand...
This is exactly what we've been struggling with.

 
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chet said:
Another one who agrees with you.
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I'm frustrated, too.

But I'm certain that this approach does not work. Whatever you think of the most vocal anti-vax nuts you read on Facebook and Twitter and the other platforms du jour over the past 25 years, the vast majority of the families we have these discussions with every hour of every day are well-meaning folks with reasonable questions. With the occasional rare exception, they ask questions in the best interests of their kids.

They are not the enemy. 

**Frightening them into vaccination does not work.

**Reporting them to Child Protective Services is reactionary.

This attitude is more likely to foster distrust in medicine. It guarantees a family who truly isn't sure but open to learning doesn't get any vaccinations the next week or month. They're unlikely to ask good questions about whether an antibiotic is truly needed, whether an x-ray is absolutely necessary, or how to handle a sensitive behavioral health problem if you show no willingness to recognize the difference between a family that doesn't truly know what they don't know and a family who believes their "kid is more special than others."

And I'm strongly against delayed vaccination and make a concerted effort to show families why it's not best practice. But refusing to recognize that getting a two-month old vaccinated for pertussis and pneumococcus and haemophilus at the expense of delaying the second Hep B vaccination a bit (i.e. agreeing to two vaccines rather than three or four) is better than sending that infant out completely unvaccinated isn't an ever-so-slightly better option isn't smart either.

 
Jene Bramel said:
I still struggle with this.

Unfortunately, I believe two things to be true.

1. Dismissing families who refuse or delay vaccinations will not improve vaccination rates.

2. Including unvaccinated and under-vaccinated families in a practice puts all families in the practice at risk.

As frustrated as I am with the second concern, I'm still swayed by the first. I may not always be successful at improving vaccination rates in my own practice -- but I know I'm trying rather than risking funneling these families to practices where other providers may not make the same effort.

And I feel like I'm seeing the tide turn a bit. I think our practice is successful in getting folks on the fence to choose vaccination. Like you, I'm now getting nearly as many questions from families who vaccinate about what we (and they) can do about families who do not vaccinate. I may have had that discussion once a year previously.

I'm seeing more and more folks supportive of vaccination on Facebook and Twitter actively combat misinformation with helpful links and data than ever before. Families now seem to know -- and are sharing with others -- the truth about Wakefield and the facts about mercury/adjuvants/preservatives. Some even have a working understanding of how the number of antigens has greatly decreased (to combat the "there's too many shots" argument).

Unfortunately, it's taken yet another measles outbreak for this to happen. But it's happening.
Click to expand...
Scary

 
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