Koya
Footballguy
IMO, Jimmy and Rod Smith were better. Because of everything else Ward brings to the game, he and the others are a good enough way ahead of Mason, who still is one of the most underated players of his generation.
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Does Hines Ward belong in the Hall of Fame? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter The_Man
- Start date
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Wadsworth
Footballguy
Yep, and you can add in McCardell as a guy he compares to that no one thinks will get in as well.
Wadsworth
Footballguy
I'll bite, Please post a comparison with the "right stats"?That's why you need to use the right stats, not career totals.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
So right now...
18/36 Steelers' fans think he should be in (50%)
30/105 of everyone else think so (29%)
18/36 Steelers' fans think he should be in (50%)
30/105 of everyone else think so (29%)
Sheriff66
Footballguy
The guy is undoubtedly the biggest a##hole in the lockerroom that has ever existed, and the most selfish SOB around, you never know what some voters may do. As far as a player, no question about it.
griz145389
Footballguy
Based on WR only numbers he has no shot. But, he brings a lot of things to the game that no other wr does. As wr I don't think he gets in. As a football player, he might.
Tau837
Footballguy
This may be true, but it is (a) speculative and (b) irrelevant. Players are assessed for the HOF based on what they did, not on what they might have done in different situations.
This is also irrelevant. Neither Jimmy Smith nor Rod Smith will or should be in the HOF. So saying Ward is as good or better than them really doesn't contribute to his HOF worthiness.
Tau837
Footballguy
Posts from the 2006 thread that was linked earlier in the thread:
David Yudkin
Footballguy
It's not about comparing stats of guys from decades ago but comparing stats to players that were in the same generation.Here are the guys that have played at the same time as Ward with more receiving yards (at least for now) . . .Jerry Rice Isaac Bruce Tim Brown Marvin Harrison Terrell Owens Cris Carter Henry Ellard Randy Moss Andre Reed Irving Fryar Torry Holt Jimmy Smith Michael Irvin Rod Smith Keenan McCardell Muhsin Muhammad Joey Galloway Keyshawn Johnson Andre Rison Derrick Mason Eric Moulds Obviously not all of them are going to get HOF consideration, but that's quite a few players from Ward's timeframe that currently have better career numbers (at least yardage wise). And as Chase mentioned, even using career numbers is a slippery slope. But Ward's peak seasons weren't as good as many of the top guys on the list, so he won't win many more points on that scale either.lmao!these hof threads are always greatit's all about the numbers baby! they should re-name it the "stats HOF" and get rid of those old timey nobodies with far inferior numbers!
Sheriff66
Footballguy
Ward trying to cement legacy
TAMPA, Fla. -- Eleven-year veteran Hines Ward has a unique nickname amongst his peers.
His Pittsburgh Steelers teammates fondly call him "Papa Smurf."
"He definitely has the same head," said a laughing Nate Washington, who based the moniker on the cartoon character. "He's the person that's going to keep us all sane and keep us all level. But at the same time, when the fight breaks out he's going to be the first one to swing. That's the type of guy that you need leading your team."
"Papa Smurf is like the character that looks over all the little young smurfs," Ward added proudly. "You have Vanity Smurf and all different type of personality smurfs, and everybody comes to Papa Smurf for advice."
On the surface, "Papa Smurf" is chasing his second championship when Pittsburgh faces the Arizona Cardinals Sunday in Super Bowl XLIII. But looking at Ward's situation a little deeper, he also has a chance to cement his NFL legacy.
Although his numbers aren't as eye-popping as contemporaries Randy Moss, Terrell Owens and Marvin Harrison, Ward is a strong candidate for the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
But number crunchers might shy away from Ward, who played in a run-oriented offense his entire career, because he trails the aforementioned receivers of his era in every major statistical category. But a second championship could be the great equalizer, as Ward would own more rings than Moss, Owens and Harrison combined.
Where Does Ward Stack Up?
Steelers receiver Hines Ward does not have the same eye-popping numbers as his contemporaries. Is he Hall of Fame worthy?
Player Current
Team Rec Yds TD ProBowls Super Bowl Wins
Harrison Colts 1,102 14,580 128 8 1
Owens Cowboys 951 14,122 139 6 0
Moss Patriots 843 13,201 135 6 0
Holt Rams 869 12,660 74 7 1
Ward Steelers 800 9,780 72 4 *1
*Ward has a chance to win his second Super Bowl on Sunday
"I'm probably a little [biased], but I think he's the best receiver in the game," Steelers safety Troy Polamalu said. "You can never ask anymore from anybody with what he does. His blocking from a receiver, he catches the football, he's able to have all of these great receiving statistics even though we're a running offense.
"To have that whole package, I don't think anybody in the NFL has that. I hope that he's remembered as a Hall of Famer, because that's what we all believe that he is."
One of a kind
What exactly is Ward's legacy?
It's hard to compare Ward, because he's an unconventional receiver in so many ways. Ward doesn't shy away from contact. He uses his smarts more than his athleticism, and he will be remembered as the most devastating blocker ever at receiver.
"I look at Hall of Fame players as guys who do things that no one else could do," Washington said. "There are plenty of guys that put up ridiculous numbers. But there's not too many receivers that you can say, 'Hey, he broke that guy's jaw.' He actually has people feared and working to not get hit by him during games. It's amazing to see those type of things."
Many defenders do not like Ward's hit-or-be-hit attitude. In addition to breaking the jaw of Cincinnati Bengals linebacker Keith Rivers, Ward has also doled out several concussions with big blocks.
"Some guys might like me, some guys call me dirty," Ward said. "There will be some kids that want to be me one day, but I don't know. When I leave this game one day, all I want people to say is he was one heck of a football player. That's all I can really ask for. It's up to you guys [in the media] to vote your opinion, judge how you want."
In terms of numbers, Ward currently holds Pittsburgh's all-time marks for games played (170), career receptions (800), receiving yards (9,780) and receiving touchdowns (72).
Ward also shines brightest in the postseason. He's played in four AFC Championship Games and Sunday will be his second Super Bowl. He also has the Super Bowl XL MVP award after recording five receptions for 123 yards and a touchdown in Pittsburgh's 21-10 victory over the Seattle Seahawks in February 2006.
"In my eyes, he's one of the best football players I've ever been around," said Arizona coach Ken Whisenhunt, who was Pittsburgh's offensive coordinator during its last title run. "He did everything that we asked him to do and more. ...Anytime you had a situation where somebody had to make a play, he was the guy who always did that."
Kneegate
The status of Ward's knee could go down as one of the most overpublicized stories in Super Bowl history.
Immediately following the AFC Championship Game, Ward said he will play in Super Bowl XLIII despite a sprained MCL. The injury normally takes 2-4 weeks of recovery time.
"It's kind of cool that everyone is worried about my knee," said Ward, who likely will wear a brace in Sunday's game. Ward practiced Thursday. He sat out all of last week's practices in Pittsburgh, in addition to the team's first practice in Tampa on Wednesday.
Playing under these circumstances could bolster his legend.
Ward has benefited from the time off, but he will not be 100 percent. But a big performance despite a gimpy knee in the Super Bowl is the type of story line that creates long-lasting memories in the eyes of football historians.
Will "Papa Smurf" answer the call?
TAMPA, Fla. -- Eleven-year veteran Hines Ward has a unique nickname amongst his peers.
His Pittsburgh Steelers teammates fondly call him "Papa Smurf."
"He definitely has the same head," said a laughing Nate Washington, who based the moniker on the cartoon character. "He's the person that's going to keep us all sane and keep us all level. But at the same time, when the fight breaks out he's going to be the first one to swing. That's the type of guy that you need leading your team."
"Papa Smurf is like the character that looks over all the little young smurfs," Ward added proudly. "You have Vanity Smurf and all different type of personality smurfs, and everybody comes to Papa Smurf for advice."
On the surface, "Papa Smurf" is chasing his second championship when Pittsburgh faces the Arizona Cardinals Sunday in Super Bowl XLIII. But looking at Ward's situation a little deeper, he also has a chance to cement his NFL legacy.
Although his numbers aren't as eye-popping as contemporaries Randy Moss, Terrell Owens and Marvin Harrison, Ward is a strong candidate for the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
But number crunchers might shy away from Ward, who played in a run-oriented offense his entire career, because he trails the aforementioned receivers of his era in every major statistical category. But a second championship could be the great equalizer, as Ward would own more rings than Moss, Owens and Harrison combined.
Where Does Ward Stack Up?
Steelers receiver Hines Ward does not have the same eye-popping numbers as his contemporaries. Is he Hall of Fame worthy?
Player Current
Team Rec Yds TD ProBowls Super Bowl Wins
Harrison Colts 1,102 14,580 128 8 1
Owens Cowboys 951 14,122 139 6 0
Moss Patriots 843 13,201 135 6 0
Holt Rams 869 12,660 74 7 1
Ward Steelers 800 9,780 72 4 *1
*Ward has a chance to win his second Super Bowl on Sunday
"I'm probably a little [biased], but I think he's the best receiver in the game," Steelers safety Troy Polamalu said. "You can never ask anymore from anybody with what he does. His blocking from a receiver, he catches the football, he's able to have all of these great receiving statistics even though we're a running offense.
"To have that whole package, I don't think anybody in the NFL has that. I hope that he's remembered as a Hall of Famer, because that's what we all believe that he is."
One of a kind
What exactly is Ward's legacy?
It's hard to compare Ward, because he's an unconventional receiver in so many ways. Ward doesn't shy away from contact. He uses his smarts more than his athleticism, and he will be remembered as the most devastating blocker ever at receiver.
"I look at Hall of Fame players as guys who do things that no one else could do," Washington said. "There are plenty of guys that put up ridiculous numbers. But there's not too many receivers that you can say, 'Hey, he broke that guy's jaw.' He actually has people feared and working to not get hit by him during games. It's amazing to see those type of things."
Many defenders do not like Ward's hit-or-be-hit attitude. In addition to breaking the jaw of Cincinnati Bengals linebacker Keith Rivers, Ward has also doled out several concussions with big blocks.
"Some guys might like me, some guys call me dirty," Ward said. "There will be some kids that want to be me one day, but I don't know. When I leave this game one day, all I want people to say is he was one heck of a football player. That's all I can really ask for. It's up to you guys [in the media] to vote your opinion, judge how you want."
In terms of numbers, Ward currently holds Pittsburgh's all-time marks for games played (170), career receptions (800), receiving yards (9,780) and receiving touchdowns (72).
Ward also shines brightest in the postseason. He's played in four AFC Championship Games and Sunday will be his second Super Bowl. He also has the Super Bowl XL MVP award after recording five receptions for 123 yards and a touchdown in Pittsburgh's 21-10 victory over the Seattle Seahawks in February 2006.
"In my eyes, he's one of the best football players I've ever been around," said Arizona coach Ken Whisenhunt, who was Pittsburgh's offensive coordinator during its last title run. "He did everything that we asked him to do and more. ...Anytime you had a situation where somebody had to make a play, he was the guy who always did that."
Kneegate
The status of Ward's knee could go down as one of the most overpublicized stories in Super Bowl history.
Immediately following the AFC Championship Game, Ward said he will play in Super Bowl XLIII despite a sprained MCL. The injury normally takes 2-4 weeks of recovery time.
"It's kind of cool that everyone is worried about my knee," said Ward, who likely will wear a brace in Sunday's game. Ward practiced Thursday. He sat out all of last week's practices in Pittsburgh, in addition to the team's first practice in Tampa on Wednesday.
Playing under these circumstances could bolster his legend.
Ward has benefited from the time off, but he will not be 100 percent. But a big performance despite a gimpy knee in the Super Bowl is the type of story line that creates long-lasting memories in the eyes of football historians.
Will "Papa Smurf" answer the call?
Sheriff66
Footballguy
Forget weenie critics: Fierce Ward plays tough game hard
TAMPA, Fla. -- Do you know what the players are who call Hines Ward dirty?
Babies.
Goo goo, gaa gaa.
Would the Ward critics like some strained peaches with their whimpering about his style of play?
If there was ever the antithesis of dirty, the epitome of hard work and blue collar, it's Ward. He should be praised, not blasphemed as some sort of pint-sized Bill Romanowski.
In a league full of Pit Bulls why is Ward singled out and expected to act like a Lhasa Apso?
That double standard reached a ridiculous level after he smashed Cincinnati linebacker Keith Rivers earlier this season on a totally legitimate block that resulted in Rivers having his jaw broken.
"I didn't intend to break his jaw," Ward said this week. "That was the first time I had ever heard that I ever broke anyone's part of their body. Me going in, I didn't go in saying that I wanted to break a guy's jaw. It was just unfortunate that I hit him and it was unfortunate that he broke his jaw. People can call me what they want."
There have long been complaints about Ward's style of play but Ward's the kind of receiver that if he's on your team, you love him. If he isn't, you despise him.
"I like the way that Hines plays on the field," Steelers linebacker James Harrison said. "He does his job and does it the way it is supposed to be done. He is a good receiver and if he is asked to block he blocks. I think everyone appreciates the emotion that he plays with. Especially when he is on your team. You might not appreciate it as much when he isn't on your team."
"He is the heart and soul of our offense," added tight end Heath Miller. "The guy is tough. The guy leads, not only by his words, but by example. As a blocker who is in the trenches, if you see a receiver down the field showing you up, it inspires you to get the job done."
Rivers had his jaw broken. So what. A hundred players have had their jaws broken. That's the nature of the sport. The NFL is violent, almost sadistic, and in some ways it speaks to our society -- and all of us -- when such a bloodied sport is our top passion.
But that's football. If people don't like tough play either leave the game or turn off the television.
Sometimes Ward's critics speak as if they want the violence fully removed from football, replaced by glitzy pass offenses and pillow fights or those women playing football in lace underwear. Players who complain about Ward want the violence to happen at a moment of their own choosing. That's not possible. It will never be possible.
And that's the central source of the core of some player and media dissatisfaction with Ward. You just don't see shrimp wide receivers like Ward knocking the hemoglobin out of much bigger and stronger men. So he must be doing something wrong, right?
No, wrong. Ward maximizes on opponent laziness. If you aren't looking, he pops you. If you're not smart, he takes advantage of your lack of intelligence. That's not cheating. That's demonstrating a high football IQ.
There's something particularly gorgeous -- yeah, I used that word -- about a wide receiver taking the fight to bigger players and winning.
Good for him.
One day, years from now, when Ward is likely inducted into the Hall of Fame -- and he should be -- he should begin his acceptance speech with the following:
"Hi, I'm Hines Ward and I knocked the crap out of people. And I'm proud of it."
TAMPA, Fla. -- Do you know what the players are who call Hines Ward dirty?
Babies.
Goo goo, gaa gaa.
Would the Ward critics like some strained peaches with their whimpering about his style of play?
If there was ever the antithesis of dirty, the epitome of hard work and blue collar, it's Ward. He should be praised, not blasphemed as some sort of pint-sized Bill Romanowski.
In a league full of Pit Bulls why is Ward singled out and expected to act like a Lhasa Apso?
That double standard reached a ridiculous level after he smashed Cincinnati linebacker Keith Rivers earlier this season on a totally legitimate block that resulted in Rivers having his jaw broken.
"I didn't intend to break his jaw," Ward said this week. "That was the first time I had ever heard that I ever broke anyone's part of their body. Me going in, I didn't go in saying that I wanted to break a guy's jaw. It was just unfortunate that I hit him and it was unfortunate that he broke his jaw. People can call me what they want."
There have long been complaints about Ward's style of play but Ward's the kind of receiver that if he's on your team, you love him. If he isn't, you despise him.
"I like the way that Hines plays on the field," Steelers linebacker James Harrison said. "He does his job and does it the way it is supposed to be done. He is a good receiver and if he is asked to block he blocks. I think everyone appreciates the emotion that he plays with. Especially when he is on your team. You might not appreciate it as much when he isn't on your team."
"He is the heart and soul of our offense," added tight end Heath Miller. "The guy is tough. The guy leads, not only by his words, but by example. As a blocker who is in the trenches, if you see a receiver down the field showing you up, it inspires you to get the job done."
Rivers had his jaw broken. So what. A hundred players have had their jaws broken. That's the nature of the sport. The NFL is violent, almost sadistic, and in some ways it speaks to our society -- and all of us -- when such a bloodied sport is our top passion.
But that's football. If people don't like tough play either leave the game or turn off the television.
Sometimes Ward's critics speak as if they want the violence fully removed from football, replaced by glitzy pass offenses and pillow fights or those women playing football in lace underwear. Players who complain about Ward want the violence to happen at a moment of their own choosing. That's not possible. It will never be possible.
And that's the central source of the core of some player and media dissatisfaction with Ward. You just don't see shrimp wide receivers like Ward knocking the hemoglobin out of much bigger and stronger men. So he must be doing something wrong, right?
No, wrong. Ward maximizes on opponent laziness. If you aren't looking, he pops you. If you're not smart, he takes advantage of your lack of intelligence. That's not cheating. That's demonstrating a high football IQ.
There's something particularly gorgeous -- yeah, I used that word -- about a wide receiver taking the fight to bigger players and winning.
Good for him.
One day, years from now, when Ward is likely inducted into the Hall of Fame -- and he should be -- he should begin his acceptance speech with the following:
"Hi, I'm Hines Ward and I knocked the crap out of people. And I'm proud of it."
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Should he be inducted?
In my constantly evolving WR rating system, I've got Ward ranked as the 29th best WR of all time. He's well ahead of Lynn Swann and Charlie Joiner, a bunch of old time guys, and Monk, Stalworth and Biletnikoff. And obviously this doesn't take into account his ability as a blocker.That said, there are even more WRs ahead of him who haven't been induted yet. I think Ward is a borderline candidate, once you consider his post-season success and his blocking ability. I've got to work a bit more on my system because I don't 100% trust the results just yet, but Ward comes out looking slightly better than I expected.
Will he be inducted?
The biggest problem for Ward is that Harrison, Owens, Moss, Tim Brown, and Cris Carter should all get in before Ward's eligible, and then he's going to have uphill battles against Holt, Bruce, Carter, Smith, Smith and Smith. That's not to mention whether or not guys like Harold Jackson, Bob Hayes, Henry Ellard or Cliff Branch ever get inducted. And when he's eligible, people may have view Larry Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson, Anquan Boldin, Dwayne Bowe, Andre Johnson, Michael Crabtree, and who knows who as the next HOFs in waiting.
In my constantly evolving WR rating system, I've got Ward ranked as the 29th best WR of all time. He's well ahead of Lynn Swann and Charlie Joiner, a bunch of old time guys, and Monk, Stalworth and Biletnikoff. And obviously this doesn't take into account his ability as a blocker.That said, there are even more WRs ahead of him who haven't been induted yet. I think Ward is a borderline candidate, once you consider his post-season success and his blocking ability. I've got to work a bit more on my system because I don't 100% trust the results just yet, but Ward comes out looking slightly better than I expected.
Will he be inducted?
The biggest problem for Ward is that Harrison, Owens, Moss, Tim Brown, and Cris Carter should all get in before Ward's eligible, and then he's going to have uphill battles against Holt, Bruce, Carter, Smith, Smith and Smith. That's not to mention whether or not guys like Harold Jackson, Bob Hayes, Henry Ellard or Cliff Branch ever get inducted. And when he's eligible, people may have view Larry Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson, Anquan Boldin, Dwayne Bowe, Andre Johnson, Michael Crabtree, and who knows who as the next HOFs in waiting.
Sheriff66
Footballguy
Like I have said before, thank goodness being inducted into the HOF isn't just a numbers thing. Numbers do not quantify what a player like Ward brings to the table, and obviously other people are seeing it too.
Wadsworth
Footballguy
Clark Judge on Ward
"....one head coach who faced Ward and the Steelers this year. In fact, he went into great detail describing how Ward would pass up head-on blocks, then circle behind his targets and drill them through the ear holes.
"Why do you think everyone hates the guy?" he said. "
"This year's resume includes a $5,000 fine for a hit against the Ravens and another $10,000 for a blow to a defender's head in the Steelers' defeat of Jacksonville."
I love 99% of Hines Ward's game. But he is a cheap shot artist. He looks for anyone not paying attention, it doesn't matter if they are involved in the play or not, and he comes in high with his helmet. That doesn't mean that he's not a great blocker on other plays or hasn't been a clutch WR for many years, but he's also cheap.
"....one head coach who faced Ward and the Steelers this year. In fact, he went into great detail describing how Ward would pass up head-on blocks, then circle behind his targets and drill them through the ear holes.
"Why do you think everyone hates the guy?" he said. "
"This year's resume includes a $5,000 fine for a hit against the Ravens and another $10,000 for a blow to a defender's head in the Steelers' defeat of Jacksonville."
I love 99% of Hines Ward's game. But he is a cheap shot artist. He looks for anyone not paying attention, it doesn't matter if they are involved in the play or not, and he comes in high with his helmet. That doesn't mean that he's not a great blocker on other plays or hasn't been a clutch WR for many years, but he's also cheap.
Sheriff66
Footballguy
In football you are supposed to keep your head on a swivel, from Freeman's article above...
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Wadsworth
Footballguy
In life you are not suppose to try and injure people when they are not paying attention. I give no "tough guy points" to sucker punchers.
Sheriff66
Footballguy
Sheriff66
Footballguy
Wadsworth
Footballguy
I didn't say that. I said I love 99% of game. He's a very good WR, he plays hurt, he's made some clutch catches and he is an excellent blocker. It's not all he does, but he does do it.
Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
I think most would say the top three WR of Ward's era were Harrison, TO and Moss in some order. These guys primarily played in pass-first offenses in great climates or domes. Look at these guys when the chips are on the table, when it matters most.
Playoff resumes
Hines Ward
13 games
74 receptions for 1021 yards (13.8), 8 TD
Marvin Harrison
16 games
65 receptions for 882 yards (13.6), 2 TD
Terrell Owens
11 games
54 receptions for 751 yards (13.9), 5 TD
Randy Moss
11 games
42 receptions for 817 yards (19.5), 10 TD
Playoff resumes
Hines Ward
13 games
74 receptions for 1021 yards (13.8), 8 TD
Marvin Harrison
16 games
65 receptions for 882 yards (13.6), 2 TD
Terrell Owens
11 games
54 receptions for 751 yards (13.9), 5 TD
Randy Moss
11 games
42 receptions for 817 yards (19.5), 10 TD
Wadsworth
Footballguy
That is impressive. Especially when you consider that in his career he only had 3 full 16 game seasons with more yards and 3 full seasons with more TDs. He definitely saved his best for the post season.
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Chase Stuart
Footballguy
When the spotlight shone brightest, when all eyes were watching and in the biggest games of a player's career, no one was better than Jerry Rice and Deion Branch.
I think so. Possibly the best blocking WR of all time.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
And Mike Vick was the best running QB of all time. There's some value in a good blocking WR but I don't think it's obvious exactly how much value there is. E.g., is a great blocking WR with 1200 yard better than a good blocking WR with 1400 yards? What about a mediocre blocking WR with 1400 yards? A bad blocking WR with 1400 yards? Making things more complicated, while Ward may be a great blocker and even the best blocking WR, how much better is he at blocking than Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, Steve Largent and Paul Warfield? Where do his blocking skills fall on the continuum with Torry Holt, Cliff Branch, Larry Fitzgerald and Harold Carmichael?
MAC_32
Footballguy
Surprised I had to get to 57 posts before reading this, it's dead on. This die hard Browns homer votes 'yes,' he's a hall of fame football player.
Adebisi
Footballguy
Do you think it's a coincidence that you could perhaps also say that about their respective quarterbacks?
Adebisi
Footballguy
Confession of a Patriots fan:
I hate the Steelers, and for a long time, I hated Hines Ward. But as time has gone by, I've grown to appreciate him quite a bit. Although he has said some foolish things, he is a warrior and a gamer, and has generally handled himself with class throughout his career.
Don't like the Steelers, but I've always respected them, and I've become a big Hines Ward fan.
I hate the Steelers, and for a long time, I hated Hines Ward. But as time has gone by, I've grown to appreciate him quite a bit. Although he has said some foolish things, he is a warrior and a gamer, and has generally handled himself with class throughout his career.
Don't like the Steelers, but I've always respected them, and I've become a big Hines Ward fan.
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but Ward is a much much better pass catcher than Vick was a passer. Ward is not one-dimensional at all. He just happens to have some intangibles that give him an edge over many of his peers. Postseason performance, Super Bowl MVP, great blocker, etc. all give him a decent shot to make the HOF some day. I don't think he's in just yet, but I think he'll get some serious consideration when his career is finished.
Wadsworth
Footballguy
I agree. Another example would be that Boomer Esiason might have had the best play action fake in the history of the NFL. While a QB executing a good play action can be extremely valuable to a team, I don't see it as a major element of Hall of Fame consideration.
Adebisi
Footballguy
Yeah, but Boomer also rips into Dan Marino when Dan is sitting three feet to his right, which provides us with the best unintentional comedy of any studio show (with apologies to Shannon Sharpe when he gets excited and tries to make a point). If that doesn't get him into the Hall of Fame, then screw the Hall of Fame.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Branch's two best games yardage wise over his career came in his two SB appearnaces. Weird.
if Ward was able to maintain his career averages of 73rec, 890 yards, and 6.5 TDs/year for another 5 years (retiring at age 37 after 16 NFL seasons), he would finish with:
1164 rec, 14225 yards, and 106 TDs.
that might leave him top-5 all-time in receptions and top-10 in yards and TDs.
1164 rec, 14225 yards, and 106 TDs.
that might leave him top-5 all-time in receptions and top-10 in yards and TDs.
Wadsworth
Footballguy
The truth is that Hines Ward is a very good player that has spent his entire career playing for a team with a very large and vocal fan base during a period which that team had a good measure of post season success. His career stats are not dissimilar to guys like Keyshawn Johnson, Keenan McCardell and Derrick Mason whom have basically no shot at the Hall. Yes, he brings some intangible qualities that are very important yet hard to rate with stats. But he also only brings 3 seasons in his career with yardage totals over 1005 yards and just one season over 1,200 yards. Yes, the Steelers don't run am explosion high risk offense. But check out the teams the 3 players I list above played for, they aren't exactly wide open offenses either and yet those 3 still put up career stats similar to Hines Ward. If Hines Ward ever makes the Hall of Fame, it will be on the shoulders of a gazillion Pittsburgh Steeler fans, not on his performance as a player.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
I think this may be somewhat flaVVed. If you give Ward another 5 years of stats, you need to factor in other players getting production as well. Harrison, Bruce, Owens, Moss, Gonzalez, and Holt will also be climbing the charts and Rice/Carter/Brown are also up there totals wise. IMO, #10 might be the ceiling for him in any of the Big 3 categories. Clearly a lot depends on both how well he plays and how long others continue to play.As for Ward, other than about 2 TD a season, is he that much different than Derrick Mason? Over their past 8 seasons:
Ward
676-8224-12.2-61
Mason
680-8558-12.6-44
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I agree 100% with Wadsworth. If you use the arguement that the Steelers are 'run orientated'...well than Keyshawn supports could say that he never played with an elite QB and he put up strong numbers. Heck, I would say he was a better blocker than Ward as well. And he has a ring.
Frank Reich, Neil O'Donnell, Glen Foley, Ray Lucas, Vinny, Rick Mirer, Shaun King, Brad Johnson, Rob Johnson, Drew Bledsoe, Delhomme and Weinke...
Frank Reich, Neil O'Donnell, Glen Foley, Ray Lucas, Vinny, Rick Mirer, Shaun King, Brad Johnson, Rob Johnson, Drew Bledsoe, Delhomme and Weinke...
dgreen
Footballguy
Ward has very Monk-like numbers with more TDs.
Through age 32
Monk: 662-9165-47
Ward: 800-9780-72
Through 11 seasons
Monk: 730-9935-52
Ward: 800-9780-72
Through 170 games
Monk: 787-10783-60
Ward: 800-9780-72
Top 10 seasons
Receptions: Monk 4, Ward 3
Receiving yards: Monk 3, Ward 2
Receiving TDs: Monk 1, Ward 3
Postseason
Monk (15 games): 69-1062-7
Ward (13 games): 74-1021-8
Honors
Pro Bowls: Monk 3, Ward 4
All Pro: Monk 1, Ward 0
SB MVP: Monk 0, Ward 1
All Decade Team: Monk 1, Ward ?
Obviously Ward can still add to his count of top 10 seasons, postseason stats, and honors. But, other than adding postseason stats, I don't see him adding anything the rest of his career in the top 10 seasons and honors (other than a possible All Decade selection).
When it comes to intangibles, they are probably pretty much equals. Both consider excellent blockers. Monk was considered a quiet leader for the Redskins. Ward is considered a leader in Pittsburgh. Both are all about team and winning.
So, Ward appears to compare with Monk on the statistical and intangible fronts. There's obviously a problem with that, though. First of all, it's usually not good for a WR of the 2000s to have similar stats to a WR of the 1980s. You generally have to be better than your predecessors. Secondly, it took Monk a long time to get in even without much competition at WR for votes. Ward will have more competition.
Through age 32
Monk: 662-9165-47
Ward: 800-9780-72
Through 11 seasons
Monk: 730-9935-52
Ward: 800-9780-72
Through 170 games
Monk: 787-10783-60
Ward: 800-9780-72
Top 10 seasons
Receptions: Monk 4, Ward 3
Receiving yards: Monk 3, Ward 2
Receiving TDs: Monk 1, Ward 3
Postseason
Monk (15 games): 69-1062-7
Ward (13 games): 74-1021-8
Honors
Pro Bowls: Monk 3, Ward 4
All Pro: Monk 1, Ward 0
SB MVP: Monk 0, Ward 1
All Decade Team: Monk 1, Ward ?
Obviously Ward can still add to his count of top 10 seasons, postseason stats, and honors. But, other than adding postseason stats, I don't see him adding anything the rest of his career in the top 10 seasons and honors (other than a possible All Decade selection).
When it comes to intangibles, they are probably pretty much equals. Both consider excellent blockers. Monk was considered a quiet leader for the Redskins. Ward is considered a leader in Pittsburgh. Both are all about team and winning.
So, Ward appears to compare with Monk on the statistical and intangible fronts. There's obviously a problem with that, though. First of all, it's usually not good for a WR of the 2000s to have similar stats to a WR of the 1980s. You generally have to be better than your predecessors. Secondly, it took Monk a long time to get in even without much competition at WR for votes. Ward will have more competition.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
That's taking it too far, I think. I've got Ward at 29, McCardell and Johnson at 74/75 and Mason at 49. Ward in '02 (112-1329-12) had a bigger year than any of those three guys.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Ward is a great blocking WR, but I 
at those who claim he is the best blocking WR of all time. Why is he? Because a few in the media say it, and then Steelers grab on to it, like it is the undisputed truth. I remember Rod Smith and Ed McCaffrey both being awesome blocking WRs in their heydays in Denver, but you don't see people going on and on about that, do you? Nope. There have been plenty of great blocking WRs throughout the history of the NFL, so to suggest one of them is unquestionably the best is pretty laughable, especially when there is nothing tangible from which you can judge and compare all of them. All of that aside, I agree with your premise that something like that really isn't that important when compared to other things from which we can compare WRs with. I mean, blocking downfield is what a WR is supposed to do, so if Ward does what some other WRs don't do, that is more of an indictment of those who do not do their jobs 100% of the time.
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Wadsworth
Footballguy
Keyshawn retired with 11 seasons, Ward just finished his 11th season. Career stats:
Ward
800-9780-12.2-72
Key:
814-10571-13.0-64
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Comparing the numbers of players from different eras is never a good way to determine a player's all-time greatness or HoF-worthiness. It is more about how you compare to your peers from your own era.
dgreen
Footballguy
Right.Did you read my whole post?
Phurfur
Footballguy
I am assuming you think Keyshawn shouldn't be in either. I would agree with that.
Wadsworth
Footballguy
Who do you have around Ward in your rankings?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Yes. I probably should have worded my post better.
Wadsworth
Footballguy
You assume correctly, I guess I should have made that clear.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Ward took a few years to develop; thus, comparing his career stats to Keyshawn is a bit misleading, I think. I always thought Keyshawn was underrated and he was saddled with some awful QBs, but Ward was a better WR.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I always thought Johnson was overrated because of his status as a former number 1 pick. He was never anything more than a very good possession receiver; nothing more, nothing less.
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