Year and a half old lab. Seems there's a few treatment options here, best seems to be putting in a pin according to the initial stuff the vet told us. I haven't even started researching this, anybody been through this before? Blah, I had suspicions we might be looking at a ligament but was holding out hope for a sprain.
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Dog Tore ACL (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter DrJ
- Start date
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
John Elway doesn't have an ACL, your lab doesn't need one either. 
AcerFC
Footballguy
Are you absolutely positive it's torn. I had a similar issue. Thought for sure she had torn something. My vet asked if I was ok waiting a few days to see how it played out. Within two days she was a little better and by the end of the week she was putting pressure on it again. She is fine now. I guess I would just be absolutely sure before doing anything.
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Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Good time to rename it Adrian.
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Vet seems pretty danged certain.
It's been going on for about a week or so, at first she was just slightly limping at times but most of the time seemed to forget about it and not care. Jumping up on the furniture, our bed, off of our deck. That's what made us think sprain, so we figured we'd give it a few days and it's been up and down. Most of the time she's totally fine, but every now and then she starts walking really funny. The night of the 26th it was definitely bothering her so we were going to take her yesterday, but by yesterday morning she was seemingly fine again. Then yesterday evening it started acting up again, so we took her in today.
In retrospect I feel a little bad taking this approach obviously. :(
The internet isn't making me feel too good either. First site I find makes it seem there's a good chance the dog is screwed for life: http://www.dogheirs.com/dogheirs/posts/2349-anterior-cruciate-ligament-acl-injuries-in-dogs-treatment-and-management
Sigh...
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ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
Parents dog blew both ACL's, one a few years after the other. Surgery was expensive, I think around 3k each time. Rehab was long and a PITA but she recovered both times.
I think there is a cheaper surgery option but no clue how that one works.
I think there is a cheaper surgery option but no clue how that one works.
Yeah, I'm not so worried about the money thing. Doing nothing about it actually is an option, but not one we're even considering. My father tore his ACL and didn't get it repaired on advice of his surgeon, now he's got a metal knee less than a decade later.
Vet's saying probably about $2,500 to go with a boarded surgeon, but they know someone that isn't boarded and would do it for $1,500 and has great references and stuff. I'm fine with paying the $2,500. I just want her to have a full life. I'd be willing to cough up even more for a replacement like they do in humans, but it doesn't appear we've come that far in dogs yet.
Jules Winnfield
Footballguy
Sorry but I am knocking your dog down a few spots in the redraft for 2014.
Yeah, this appears to be one of the risks. Once they tear one there's about a 30-40% chance they'll tear the other one. Blah...
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
My 2yo boxer tore hers playing with another (aggressive) dog. The surgery cost about a grand in total. Unfortunately, there's a greater than 50% chance that they will tear the other one because of overcompensating. Ours did about a year or two later.
Money well spent. She's 9 now and can still go on runs with me, although she'll feel it the next day. Good luck. It's not as bad as it may seem right now,
Money well spent. She's 9 now and can still go on runs with me, although she'll feel it the next day. Good luck. It's not as bad as it may seem right now,
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
My dog had both knees done. One when she was 4 and one when she was 5. She is almost 13 (lab).
First was done by a regular vet. They did ok but rehab was long and hard. That usually put major stress on the other leg. Hence her having both done. While rehabbing leg one I had an unbelievable vet from NC state vet school taking care of her. Rehab took months. But he did the second surgery and she walking on the leg the day after the surgery when I picked her up. The first leg took weeks for her to use. Then she had a setback hence the rehab. Find a good specialist. It makes all the difference.
First was done by a regular vet. They did ok but rehab was long and hard. That usually put major stress on the other leg. Hence her having both done. While rehabbing leg one I had an unbelievable vet from NC state vet school taking care of her. Rehab took months. But he did the second surgery and she walking on the leg the day after the surgery when I picked her up. The first leg took weeks for her to use. Then she had a setback hence the rehab. Find a good specialist. It makes all the difference.
In case you guys are worried for your leagues, the 14 1/2 year lab doesn't look like much, but he's a specimen of durability. First non checkup vet bill in 14 years was to get a giant skin tag cut off a few months ago. He once tore his knee open badly on a rock and it didn't effect his production in the slightest.
Thanks. We're definitely going with a boarded surgeon on this rather than the guy with nice recommendations. Have an appointment for consultation on the 3rd at one, wondering how I can find out if these people are any good rather than counting on our vet's advice.
TheGooRoo
Footballguy
I've gone through this injury 3 times with 2 different labs. Both situations were "no doubters", where the dogs would put zero weight on the leg and were in pretty significant pain. Given what I witnessed, it seems hard to believe that your dog could act "seemingly fine" at any point with a ccl tear. How about any other guys that have dealt with this? Partial tear maybe?
Yeah, I'm not so worried about the money thing. Doing nothing about it actually is an option, but not one we're even considering. My father tore his ACL and didn't get it repaired on advice of his surgeon, now he's got a metal knee less than a decade later.
Vet's saying probably about $2,500 to go with a boarded surgeon, but they know someone that isn't boarded and would do it for $1,500 and has great references and stuff. I'm fine with paying the $2,500. I just want her to have a full life. I'd be willing to cough up even more for a replacement like they do in humans, but it doesn't appear we've come that far in dogs yet.
Dog 1 had the TPLO done. Cost was about $3500. Relatively happy with the results, recovery period was about 7-8 weeks. 2 years later she tore the other one. Cost and recovery time were similar. She went on to live 6 years after the second procedure. She did develop some arthritis that we pretty successfully controlled with pills. Dog 2 had the MRIT done. Cost was about $1500. Was not very happy with the results. Recovery period was about 8 weeks. She has had a limp since the surgery and at times it becomes pretty significant. I actually considered taking her back to get the TPLO done but couldn't put her through the procedure again. She's 6 years post op, getting around OK, but her quality of life is impacted and she's much worse off than dog 1 who went through 2 surgeries.
In looking at this now, it looks like they do a Tightrope procedure now which is an improvement on the MRIT, and a TTA process which looks nice. Happy to see that there are some advancements out there. Good luck to you and your dog!!!
ETA: Dog 2's MRIT surgery was done by the non-boarded, great references vet.
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Yeah, that's what seemed strange to me as well and made us lean towards sprain. I would say about 80% of the time she was acting fine. I knew a ligament was a possibility, so I wasn't entirely surprised with the prognosis, but it seemed to be the least likely explanation since I didn't think that pain would come and go. Our bed is a few feet high and she would leap up there clearly using both legs during part of this. Last night she barely cleared because she did a 3 legged jump.I've gone through this injury 3 times with 2 different labs. Both situations were "no doubters", where the dogs would put zero weight on the leg and were in pretty significant pain. Given what I witnessed, it seems hard to believe that your dog could act "seemingly fine" at any point with a ccl tear. How about any other guys that have dealt with this? Partial tear maybe?
Yeah, I'm not so worried about the money thing. Doing nothing about it actually is an option, but not one we're even considering. My father tore his ACL and didn't get it repaired on advice of his surgeon, now he's got a metal knee less than a decade later.
Vet's saying probably about $2,500 to go with a boarded surgeon, but they know someone that isn't boarded and would do it for $1,500 and has great references and stuff. I'm fine with paying the $2,500. I just want her to have a full life. I'd be willing to cough up even more for a replacement like they do in humans, but it doesn't appear we've come that far in dogs yet.
Dog 1 had the TPLO done. Cost was about $3500. Relatively happy with the results, recovery period was about 7-8 weeks. 2 years later she tore the other one. Cost and recovery time were similar. She went on to live 6 years after the second procedure. She did develop some arthritis that we pretty successfully controlled with pills. Dog 2 had the MRIT done. Cost was about $1500. Was not very happy with the results. Recovery period was about 8 weeks. She has had a limp since the surgery and at times it becomes pretty significant. I actually considered taking her back to get the TPLO done but couldn't put her through the procedure again. She's 6 years post op, getting around OK, but her quality of life is impacted and she's much worse off than dog 1 who went through 2 surgeries.
In looking at this now, it looks like they do a Tightrope procedure now which is an improvement on the MRIT, and a TTA process which looks nice. Happy to see that there are some advancements out there. Good luck to you and your dog!!!
Vet believes it's full or close to a full tear.
Thanks for the info!
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IC FBGCav
Footballguy
http://www.google.com/search?q=dr+marcellin+vet&hl=en&sa=X&as_q=&nfpr=&spell=1&ei=-Ve_UqPGIsPgsASWn4LQDQ&ved=0CBAQvwU
This is my guy. I have his email. PM me you city and state and I will ask him if he recommends anyone from that area. He is at the top of the veterinary orthopedic field and will know all the top people. Probably taught many of them.
Remember too tplo should only be done if the angle of the bones lining up are a certain degree. It is a much more invasive surgery. A few doctors tried to sell me on that but it was not necessary for my lab.
This is my guy. I have his email. PM me you city and state and I will ask him if he recommends anyone from that area. He is at the top of the veterinary orthopedic field and will know all the top people. Probably taught many of them.
Remember too tplo should only be done if the angle of the bones lining up are a certain degree. It is a much more invasive surgery. A few doctors tried to sell me on that but it was not necessary for my lab.
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This page goes so far as to suggest that these newer sutures actually render TPLO/TTA obsolete and not worth the risk for most dogs: http://www.tiggerpoz.com/id7.html
Very interesting stuff, seems like there's a lot of advances being made in this stuff. Problem is that I'm sure I'll find tons of articles that all say different things and I'm not particularly qualified to sort through them. :(
Thanks for the help! I think I just need to find someone I know I can trust and go with their best advice.
This is really pretty darned confusing. Seems to me that these TPLO's are going to offer superior stability (there's something to actually stabilize the joint long term), and it seems you guys that have gotten them done are very happy with the results. And some less happy with the suture route, which seems to offer no long term stability. It's meant to simply hold everything in place while the scar tissue builds up for support.
But then that site gets really bent out of shape about these TPLO's and acts like vets are just pushing them for profit. And I do have to say I'm not entirely thrilled about the idea of my dog's bones being cut.
Really wish they did replacements like in humans. There's a reason we don't get TPLO's or just have sutures to hold the joint in place while scar tissue builds, right?
But then that site gets really bent out of shape about these TPLO's and acts like vets are just pushing them for profit. And I do have to say I'm not entirely thrilled about the idea of my dog's bones being cut.
Really wish they did replacements like in humans. There's a reason we don't get TPLO's or just have sutures to hold the joint in place while scar tissue builds, right?
Dragons
Delusions of Grandeur
Our mutt had a both ACLs replaced about 3 years ago. I don't remember the name of the type of surgery, but it involved using 80 or 100 lb. wire to string around the joint and act as the new ACL. Having them both done at the same time dramatically speeds up recovery, because they can't favor one leg, but it is still a lot of work and a huge commitment to the rehab. It cost about $5k for both.
I'm confused why there is confusion about whether it's a sprain or tear. From my understanding, the knee joint is not supposed to move sideways. If it does, it's torn (at least partially). The specialist did nothing else than a physical exam of each leg and said the lateral movement was diagnostic. During the initial exam, one was fully torn and one had slight movement, but the second was fully torn by the time he went in for surgery the next day.
ETA - from one of the above links, our pup had this:
I'm confused why there is confusion about whether it's a sprain or tear. From my understanding, the knee joint is not supposed to move sideways. If it does, it's torn (at least partially). The specialist did nothing else than a physical exam of each leg and said the lateral movement was diagnostic. During the initial exam, one was fully torn and one had slight movement, but the second was fully torn by the time he went in for surgery the next day.
ETA - from one of the above links, our pup had this:
I didn't realize the filament is intended to be temporary while the scar tissue builds up. My understanding was that it acted as his ACL.
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No, the vet isn't saying there's confusion. That was our completely unofficial diagnosis based on how she was acting. We gave her a few days to heal which didn't help - she would go back and forth from acting totally normal, jumping all over our stuff, and running around the house with no noticeable issues including on our hardwoord floor to using the leg but clearly favoring the other one. That's what made it seem like a sprain to us that she was tweaking or something, I didn't figure an ACL injury would act that way. Took to the vet today who gave the ACL diagnosis.
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Dragons
Delusions of Grandeur
Ah, got it. Dogs have an amazing ability to hide pain. Ours was showing intermittent trouble, just like yours and because of that it took us a little longer to take him in. By the way he was limping, we thought it was his foot. Our main vet suspected it was his knee and sent us to the specialist and we got the immediate diagnosis. The specialist was great, other than misleading me into thinking the fishing line was a long term replacement.
Yeah, that was our other thought - that she hurt a pad on her foot on the snow or ice or something. Knowing it's a torn ACL I feel bad for handling it that way now, but that's really more hindsight than anything.
spreagle
Footballguy
I'm 30 miles up the road from you, Jeffery Meinen was the vet who did my dogs TPLO 10 years ago, looks like he's still doing it, same place in Waukesha Wi. It was an $1800 job at the time.
http://www.wvrc.com/specialties/surgery/
http://www.wvrc.com/specialties/surgery/
Dragons
Delusions of Grandeur
In reading the link posted above: http://www.tiggerpoz.com/id7.html
If the intent of the filament surgery is to stabilize the joint until scar tissue can build up, I'm not sure why it is better than a properly fitted brace. Partially because we had waited so long to bring him in, we scheduled his surgery immediately after seeing the specialist. We didn't have time to get a second opinion or do internet research (the other part is that my wife was pregnant and due the next week, we didn't think we'd have an opportunity to bring him back a few days later)
If the intent of the filament surgery is to stabilize the joint until scar tissue can build up, I'm not sure why it is better than a properly fitted brace. Partially because we had waited so long to bring him in, we scheduled his surgery immediately after seeing the specialist. We didn't have time to get a second opinion or do internet research (the other part is that my wife was pregnant and due the next week, we didn't think we'd have an opportunity to bring him back a few days later)
Yeah, that's what they seem to be suggesting. 8 weeks of rest, use a brace if your dog won't be inactive enough for you, and go from there. But I doubt I'm going to find many vets that recommend that as it seems that all of these surgeries tend to be rather profitable and might potentially be better depending on the situation.
It seems there aren't any procedures that are going to give the dog back the use of their leg they once had and all have various upsides and downsides. You have to kind of pick your poison and hope for the best.
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The other thing that really sucks about all of this is that an MRI is a couple K itself. So it's not like you can make your decision with a ton of information on what your dog's leg looks like and what would be best given that information. It's kind of open it up and see what we find.
Dragons
Delusions of Grandeur
3 years later our dog doesn't seem to show any negative signs of having only scar tissue and no ACL in his joint. The rehab is a time commitment (applying heat & moving the joint several times a day and eventually controlled walks to put the right pressure on the joint), but it's not difficult. We may have been lucky, but I would not say that we picked our poison and hoped for the best.
One of the other links said the brace is recommended more for partial tears and maybe small dogs. If you find a vet that is recommending the filament route, you may have more success inquiring about the brace. You probably wouldn't get anywhere with a TPLO vet.
It ticks me off that we have to wade through "for profit" motives when selecting the best care for animals.
Good stuff. On the bolded, I'm sure I sound rather negative here. I don't mean to insinuate anything like that, I guess what I really mean is that there's no perfect solution for this and it seems your mileage can vary greatly with any of these procedures. Which is kind of frustrating.
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
Did you ever get the settlement from that airhorn lawsuit you had rolling? That should pay for this, I'd think.
Nah, but we're okay on money. My wife started teaching now that the kids are in school so we have another source of income. I know teacher salaries suck and all, but it should probably cover like half of this.
She's still doing the same stuff behavior wise, for the most part you can't tell at all that she's injured. Let her out to go to the bathroom last night, she leaps off of the deck as usual. When she comes back in she leaps straight onto the deck (3 stairs off the ground) lands on all 4 and it doesn't phase her. I guess we'll need to leash her out there for now to get her to settle down because she's not going to settle herself down over this. I go upstairs for something and she follows me, blasting up the stairs like nothing's wrong. I guess we'll need to gate these off. Following us anywhere we go in the house, tail wagging and using all of her weight on all of them seemingly without issue. And then every now and then she notices some pain and limps a bit.
I know the dog will walk through walls to get our attention. That's one of the upsides to this whole thing is she's this 85 pound lap dog that just wants to lay at your feet most of the time. So long as she gets her attention she'll be as happy as always. Just really doesn't make sense to me that this is an ACL. Not that I'm doubting the vet, but to the untrained person this really doesn't seem like a serious injury.
I know the dog will walk through walls to get our attention. That's one of the upsides to this whole thing is she's this 85 pound lap dog that just wants to lay at your feet most of the time. So long as she gets her attention she'll be as happy as always. Just really doesn't make sense to me that this is an ACL. Not that I'm doubting the vet, but to the untrained person this really doesn't seem like a serious injury.
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avoiding injuries
Footballguy
My dog wasn't able to put any weight on her leg when it happened. The surgeon who did ACLs was only at our vet on Wednesdays, so we had to wait 5-6 days to get the procedure done. After a few days, she would use her leg like a crutch to help her get around, but nothing like jumping up and down stairs.
Village Idiot
Pokerguy
Aussie Shepheard Chocolate Lab mix had that procedure on both also at 3 years old and she is now 11 and fine.
St. Bernard also blew out both ACL's, had them both done at once and was fine after recovery.
After surgery it's a good idea to help the dog out by using a towel under him like a sling when he goes out to help support his weight for a couple of weeks.
Just like with humans, Vets like the dogs to be up and moving as soon as possible after surgery.
Village Idiot
Pokerguy
top dog
Footballguy
I'm surprised to see so many dog ACL injuries. Many of them labs. Is that more common in labs than other breeds? Kind of like hip displasia (have no idea how to spell this) is with Shepherds?
When your dog blew out his ACL was he on grass or turf? If it was on the carpet in the house, you may want to consider putting sod down in your living room to make sure it doesn't happen again.
When your dog blew out his ACL was he on grass or turf? If it was on the carpet in the house, you may want to consider putting sod down in your living room to make sure it doesn't happen again.
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