Yeah, we most certainly will. Today we have her blocked off in the living room with couches and chairs to try and limit her movement. She leaped over a couch and wasn't limping afterwards. And my wife brought up a good point that hadn't really hit me, but the second we came in the room she was like "uh oh, it's a lab" almost as if she had already diagnosed it. Again, not saying she's wrong, but I'm not rushing to put her under the knife without making sure.
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Dog Tore ACL (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter DrJ
- Start date
Yeah, breeds that are large with a lot of power in the hind legs are more prone. This is our 3rd lab and the 1st 2 were/are very front heavy. This has lead to arthritis in the back legs as they age because they're built like twigs back there, but I guess it was good for their ACL's. She's definitely a back heavy dog.
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Dragons
Delusions of Grandeur
How did your normal vet diagnose the ACL tear? Our normal vet suspected knees, but didn't bother to evaluate further, just sent us to the specialist.
The specialist got on the ground with our dog, laid him on his side, then held the problem back leg in a certain position and put pressure in a specific way on the knee joint. The joint moved = ACL tear. She then tried the other leg and saw small movement = partial tear. From what she said, there is no need for an MRI or any further evaluation. The joint moving in such a way indicates ACL tear.
Did your vet evaluate the knee like this?
The specialist got on the ground with our dog, laid him on his side, then held the problem back leg in a certain position and put pressure in a specific way on the knee joint. The joint moved = ACL tear. She then tried the other leg and saw small movement = partial tear. From what she said, there is no need for an MRI or any further evaluation. The joint moving in such a way indicates ACL tear.
Did your vet evaluate the knee like this?
Vet pretty much thought it was an ACL tear to start like I said, got down and felt the legs while she was standing, and noticed some swelling in the one knee on inspection. She moved the leg a bit and said she didn't like a certain range of motion. That was about it, but she seemed 100% certain it was an ACL tear and just couldn't really tell if it was partial or full.
Lots of stuff I'm reading today on ACL's do describe the way she's moving and say that their behavior can range from looking slightly limp, where I'd describe her, all the way to not wanting to use the leg at all. So I guess this isn't abnormal with the injury. Just seems strange, but I guess it makes some sense. Rivers played on an ACL tear with a brace and some guys seem to feel extreme pain while others seem to be walking around and you figure it's probably not an ACL until the MRI comes back.
northern exposure
Footballguy
Our dog, who passed away two years ago at age 12, had an ACL tear in one of its hind legs when he was about 7 years old. He would walk around on three legs with the injured leg tucked up against his body. The vet said we could do the surgery mentioned earlier in this thread or just let it heal naturally and eventually the dog would use the 4th leg when it was healed and could support his weight again.
We knew the owner of one of his litter mates and their dog experienced the same injury. They went the surgery route and because the vet did not get it right the first two times, the surgery had to be performed 3 times. We decided to try the "let it heal" option with the idea that surgery could be a fallback option. He walked around on three legs for a while (can't recall how long) and eventually started to use the injured leg more regularly.
He was back to his normal self until he was 9.5 and tore the ACL in his other hind leg. We choose the let it heal option again and he healed in a shorter period of time. He was more lethargic after the second injury, but it is difficult to say how much of the lethargy was due to age.
He definitely wasn't suffering during the healing process of either injury. Stairs and jumping up on chairs,etc. were an issue after he recovered from the second injury.
We knew the owner of one of his litter mates and their dog experienced the same injury. They went the surgery route and because the vet did not get it right the first two times, the surgery had to be performed 3 times. We decided to try the "let it heal" option with the idea that surgery could be a fallback option. He walked around on three legs for a while (can't recall how long) and eventually started to use the injured leg more regularly.
He was back to his normal self until he was 9.5 and tore the ACL in his other hind leg. We choose the let it heal option again and he healed in a shorter period of time. He was more lethargic after the second injury, but it is difficult to say how much of the lethargy was due to age.
He definitely wasn't suffering during the healing process of either injury. Stairs and jumping up on chairs,etc. were an issue after he recovered from the second injury.
Had the consultation with a specialist this morning. It is indeed a partially torn ACL. Recommendation is TPLO due to size, but it's not an emergency situation. There is some outside chance this could heal on it's own, but odds are very slim (probably 5% or so) and most likely she'll maybe get better now but will hurt it again when it's summer and she's more active again.
Since it isn't an emergency, we didn't get it done today. We're going to take a little weight off of her (she's about 5 lbs too heavy) and my wife and I are going to schedule back to back weeks of vacation so she won't be home alone for the first 2 weeks of recovery. We're almost certainly going to get the surgery done at some point in the next month though.
Looking at almost 4K at this place, but they do seem really good.
Since it isn't an emergency, we didn't get it done today. We're going to take a little weight off of her (she's about 5 lbs too heavy) and my wife and I are going to schedule back to back weeks of vacation so she won't be home alone for the first 2 weeks of recovery. We're almost certainly going to get the surgery done at some point in the next month though.
Looking at almost 4K at this place, but they do seem really good.
They didn't seem to be fans of the tight roping procedure either because of concerns with bacteria and infection. I feel pretty good about the place because of a recommendation of a friend along with FUJB's recommendation working at this place as well. And they have a really good set of credential from what I can see, way better than the local place our vet was recommending. They're also on the really expensive side of things obviously at 4K, but I'm not weighing that factor too heavily.
Also, she's been acting completely fine the last 2 days. The specialist said it was fine to take her for walks, but we should keep her from going up stairs and jumping on the bed and stuff. She basically took my wife for a walk tonight, no limp whatsoever. If we would have waited a few more days instead of going to the vet I'd completely have taken this for a simple sprain that had healed.
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
If you don't have a crate, get one for the rehab.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
My lab/pit bull mix tore hers a couple years ago when she was 7 (she's almost 10 now). She wasn't moving around at all after it happened, so I'd be surprised if your dog tore hers but seems fine now. Ours wouldn't come when we opened her treats, wouldn't walk anywhere she didn't need to, and would limp badly with her bad leg raised when she'd walk anywhere.
It took me about 2 days to get her to the vet and she had surgery that day (about $3K). Rehab wasn't that bad, just had to monitor how far she walked and encourage her to put her foot down. We followed their instructions exactly on how to gradually increase the length of her walks and the physical therapy on her knee to make sure it didn't get too stiff. She's as good as new now and goes on long hikes all the time, but we don't let her jump into the back of the SUV anymore.
Our vet used this electro-magnetic stimulation thing on her knee, kind of like what a chiropractor would use on your back - it was like 10 treatments at $40 a pop, but it promoted healing and had a huge effect on her soreness early on.
It took me about 2 days to get her to the vet and she had surgery that day (about $3K). Rehab wasn't that bad, just had to monitor how far she walked and encourage her to put her foot down. We followed their instructions exactly on how to gradually increase the length of her walks and the physical therapy on her knee to make sure it didn't get too stiff. She's as good as new now and goes on long hikes all the time, but we don't let her jump into the back of the SUV anymore.
Our vet used this electro-magnetic stimulation thing on her knee, kind of like what a chiropractor would use on your back - it was like 10 treatments at $40 a pop, but it promoted healing and had a huge effect on her soreness early on.
Yeah, we have one. Got a gate for the stairs already as well, making sure we keep the stress on the leg to a minimum for the next week or two while we get everything lines up. Going to take a week off of work so that I can be home with her for like a week and a half at the start as well, wife might take a few days to make it close to 2.
There's a local place that does physical therapy with underwater treadmills and stuff as well, so we'll probably drop a few more dimes there. Just keeping her inactive for a couple of days and she's already got a lot of pent up energy so it's probably best we get something to work some of that off in a productive fashion. I think that's the roughest part of her being so young with this whole thing is that she's got a pile of energy and obviously isn't going to take to being inactive too well. It does happen but isn't quite as common in dogs this age, definitely a bummer for her.
This happened with our dog. He was fine for awhile and then completely tore it after the fact. We didn't know that the second time but he was obviously worse and didn't get better after a few weeks so we took him in.The vet said it was actually better we didn't go in the first time since the full tear was easier for him to fix. Cost us about $1300 for the surgery and probably $400-500 of other appointments.
This is what we ended up doing at the recommendation of our vet. He described it as kind of a net/web they wrap around the joint to stabilize it. Not a very scientific description but that's how I ended up picturing it.
He still has some times where he will limp so it bothers him once in awhile after he sprints around the yard. Otherwise he has been great. We have a lot of stairs too so that probably doesn't help.
ETA: the vet who performed the surgery was in Burr Ridge
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Yeah, it's really amazing to me. I'm guessing it's a small partial tear or something. I was wishfully thinking we might get good news based on how she's acting, but I felt around on both knees myself last night and you can definitely feel some swelling in the one and the bones feel a little different so I was pretty sure the news wasn't going to be good with the specialist either. After they put the knee through a full range of motion and stuff you could tell she was annoyed by it and for a few minutes was putting a slight bit less pressure on it. By the time she got to the waiting room with the other dogs again she was totally fine and hasn't shown any signs of being bothered since.
A really small part of me wants to play the "let it rest" angle and see how that works out, but I'm kind of afraid that it won't work out too well and would lead to more long term problems down the line.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Simple - ask the vet what risks you run by waiting. Maybe he says it's nothing but the dog being uncomfortable periodically until she tears it completely (and you'll know when that happens), but I've gotta think that the longer it drags out, the more chance of the dog developing arthritis and other problems in the knee. Not that I really have a clue though, which is why I'd ask someone who does. Dogs and cats have a way of hiding the amount of pain and discomfort they're in, especially when they're scared or excited, so you won't know how bad it's really bothering her until she tears it the rest of the way.
It sounds like you're already monitoring what she's doing anyways... recovery from ACL surgery is just more of that with shorter walks and physical therapy mixed in.
What kind of dog do you have?
The place we went with today seems to have opinions on the opposite end of the spectrum as the guy from that link does. It seems everyone agrees that the fishing line type materials are the preferred first option but they aren't going to work on a dog our size, so that basically means TPLO or one of these newer materials like the tight roping stuff are our options outside of do nothing. The opinion of the place we went today as far as tight roping seems to be that they don't like the risk of infection. The guy from this link does admit that there's a higher risk because of there's more places for bacteria to hide, but he doesn't seem to consider it too serious as he suggests these materials basically render TPLO obsolete. On the TPLO end, guy from the link seems to be very against this because of how intrusive it is, which I can definitely see and am not entirely comfortable with. I don't like the idea that my dog's bones are being cut or that the geometry of the joint is being altered. Link guy claims they don't get statistically better results and suggests some vets are making this their primary procedure for large dogs mostly for profit. These people told me the procedure is about an hour and a half, and they're going to clear 4K with little overhead. I can see some merit to what he's saying. But these guys seem to disagree on TPLO and some of his suggestions. I asked about range of motion and they say that 95% of dogs come through this basically as good as new with a full range of motion. And all of the people here that had TPLO done seem to be pretty danged happy with the results. My facebook friend that recommended this place had TPLO done there and he says the dog is good as new.
This is what's kind of frustrating. Seems there's a lot of opinions on this stuff and a lot of these vets disagree. And they all make compelling arguments.
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They seemed good with the approach we're taking. It's not an emergency, but they say it should be done within the next 4 weeks or so. There's obvious benefits to getting it done today - there would be less risk of her doing damage to the meniscus or something like that. But since it's partial and not bothering her it should be okay a while longer so long as we make sure we aren't letting her jump up on our bed and things. There's also benefits on the recovery end to taking a couple of pounds off of her and doing it when I can schedule a week off of work to be around and make sure she's immobile and comfortable. So that's the route we opted to take. I asked them what they would do if this was their dog, and they agreed that's what they would probably do.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Perfect. Just be careful with her and everything will end up OK. Two years from now, you'll still wince a little bit every time she jumps or runs around a corner, but the knee will end up stable and she'll be as good as new.
By the way, regarding all these options about types of surgery, don't stress about it. You'll drive yourself nuts weighing all the options because everything will sound good, and you'll end up back where you are now - confused. So pick a vet that you trust, trust their judgement, and don't look back. It'll make it a lot easier.
simey
Footballguy
Standard Process Ligaplex l works well in the healing process in sprains, tears, etc. in people and in animals. I've used it before, and so has a friend's dog in the past. Once it heals Standard Process Ligaplex ll helps maintain its health. I still take Ligaplex ll for my shoulder. Happy New Year, and good luck with your dog.
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Alright, we've confined her to one floor and crated her when we leave for the last few weeks. She's acting perfectly fine at this point. She decided to use one of my chairs to climb on my desk a couple days ago. We were supposed to go have this done last week but she was throwing up so we had to postpone it. Took her to the vet for that one and they commented that she was acting totally fine and asked if we had taken her to a specialist to confirm. We said yeah and they were talking about dogs having a high tolerance to pain and stuff, but you couldn't tell she was at all bothered.
Have the appointment for tomorrow morning but I'm seeing the specialist first to get her checked out and talk about it. Hopefully we get some really good news, but I doubt it and I'm really torn on this whole thing. It completely sucks to be taking a seemingly healthy dog to get this done. She did have one instance probably about 2 - 2 1/2 weeks ago where she was limping, it lasted maybe a day, and that's about it since the last postings. Just so hard to get my dog's knee cut up when she's acting totally normal. Blah....
On the plus sides though - we got 10 lbs off of her. Between me and the wife we're taking 2 weeks off to watch her here at the start so we've got the biggest periods of concern well covered. We also have a pretty highly regarded rehab facility in our town, I actually just saw them quoted in an article I was reading on some things. We'll be taking her there, and it seems like it'll be a good place to take her to monitor her progress throughout the years as well.
Have the appointment for tomorrow morning but I'm seeing the specialist first to get her checked out and talk about it. Hopefully we get some really good news, but I doubt it and I'm really torn on this whole thing. It completely sucks to be taking a seemingly healthy dog to get this done. She did have one instance probably about 2 - 2 1/2 weeks ago where she was limping, it lasted maybe a day, and that's about it since the last postings. Just so hard to get my dog's knee cut up when she's acting totally normal. Blah....
On the plus sides though - we got 10 lbs off of her. Between me and the wife we're taking 2 weeks off to watch her here at the start so we've got the biggest periods of concern well covered. We also have a pretty highly regarded rehab facility in our town, I actually just saw them quoted in an article I was reading on some things. We'll be taking her there, and it seems like it'll be a good place to take her to monitor her progress throughout the years as well.
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Thanks for this BTW. This rehab place specializes in a lot of this holistic healing type stuff, I'll be interested to see what sort of things they'll prescribe. It seems from my research that most people don't recommend going with a conservative approach for dogs that are over weights way below what she is. But I'm guessing that something like this, along with rehab, making sure we keep that weight down and everything would probably reduce the odds of a 2nd ACL tear. At least I hope.
It is done. Surgery went well, tear was very small so she had most of her stability, just not quite all of it. They didn't have to open the joint and look at or do anything to the meniscus as a result. I guess it's usually 50/50 on that, and we ended up on the good 50%. So now the road to recovery.
Dragons
Delusions of Grandeur
Good luck! As was suggested earlier in the thread and probably mentioned by vet, use a towel sling to help support her back legs when going and down stairs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz4Ts1cncAw
Drifter
Footballguy
Even if the dog starts putting pressure on it, it doesn't mean it wasn't torn. Dogs are pretty amazing at redistributing weight and dealing with pain.
There are 2 basic surgeries, a cheaper one and one that involves putting in a plate in place of the ligament. It's the difference between around $1500 and $3-$5k. The more expensive one definitely is better for the dog and will last longer. If the dog blew one out, at some point they will blow the other one out.
I'm not a vet but my uncle and grandfather were. Both of them would think you were crazy for spending that much money on a dog instead of just taking it out back.
There are 2 basic surgeries, a cheaper one and one that involves putting in a plate in place of the ligament. It's the difference between around $1500 and $3-$5k. The more expensive one definitely is better for the dog and will last longer. If the dog blew one out, at some point they will blow the other one out.
I'm not a vet but my uncle and grandfather were. Both of them would think you were crazy for spending that much money on a dog instead of just taking it out back.
12 week point was Friday. It was definitely a very annoying 12 weeks especially with the cold weather here, but we've been taking her to the dog park and slowly upping her time allowed there and all is still going great. We haven't been to the rehab place since about week 6 when they pissed us off, but she had worked her way back to full range of motion at that point. So she's pretty close to 100% I'd say. Hopefully this will be the only time we have to do this.
Yes and no - we didn't have the actual doctor that you had referred us to do the procedure as she was studying for her board certification at the time, but we went to that same office. They were awesome. Thanks, because your recommendation definitely helped us feel more comfortable with them.
We also went through rehab initially, but like I said they pissed us off at week 6 and we didn't feel we needed their services anymore. It definitely helped on the front end - when she could barely walk it was great to do the underwater treadmill stuff. But at a certain point I think they were trying to sell us on things we didn't need and just being generally freaky. So we parted ways.
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We picked out the rehab place on our own, it was a local place. They actually seem pretty reputable in this area, but one of the doctors was a bit on the freaky side which turned us off. First off, she started talking crap like the dog's back was out of alignment on the first visit and saying stuff like "we'll worry about the leg first though". I looked past that because I wanted the treatments they were prescribing at the time though. Personally I'm not 100% sure she really needed rehab, but I didn't mind erring on the side of caution since I was almost 5K in already anyways.
Treatments went well. I think they might have been a little conservative in how far they were willing to push her based on the activity levels she was feeling comfortable with at home, but it did slowly ramp up some as we went along. They seemed to think so as well as they were bragging to a doctor that was touring the facility one day - "Look at her, she's just 4 weeks from her TPLO!!" when they were only giving her like 3 minutes on the treadmill at that point anyways. The dog was just healing fast because she's really young.
Week 6 was where they started acting like freaks again, like on the initial visit. Coincidentally as our initial treatment schedule is starting to wind down... She starts to claim that she feels a bony spur in the leg and that there might be "possible shifting" in the leg. To me it was complete BS, because from what I could find any shifting in the leg would have been accompanied by some level of change in behavior in the dog. And then she starts telling my wife that they labeled the dog as "pre arthritic" on the first visit and more stupid crap and they start prescribing more treatment. The dog was walking fine underwater at that point, they couldn't even tell which one was the bad leg on their underwater videos. So we said screw them and let's see what the week 8 X-Ray brings. The doctor found nothing, and then when I mentioned the bony spur nonsense she looked at me strange and inspected the leg again, still felt nothing. So we felt comfortable in thinking these people were freaks that were trying to upsell us on a bunch of stuff we didn't need and we could just walk her back to health ourselves now that she could actually walk. And that seems to have worked really well.
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