What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Doing your own research (1 Viewer)

I get how it could be annoying when patients come in claiming to have done their own research but at the same time what do you expect when drug companies are allowed to pepper the airwaves with ads urging people to “ask your doctor” about specific medications? Doesn't it kind of trains patients to see themselves as part of the diagnostic process? Especially in a time where all doctors are not created equal. I had a great doctor for about 15 years until he retired. Since then have gone through three gps trying to find someone even half decent.
I don’t think most healthcare providers are producing those ads, nor do they approve of them.

Also, it’s completely appropriate to ask questions, and seek multiple sources regarding the answers to complex medical quandaries. The problem is, more often than not, self “research” yields incomplete, erroneous conclusions, and patients seem less willing to defer to expertise in grey areas.

At some point, it’s a battle not worth fighting.

To be clear, I’m not expecting blind faith in experts, in any field.

But in medicine, it seems some “questions” aren’t really looking for answers at all; rather, they’re veiled demands for internet-inspired testing/treatment. Or worse, part of a quasi-political agenda.

A big part of this is uncertainty in the process. There are large swaths of medicine which lack evidence-based guidance. Clinicians must elaborate these limits, and prescribe without paternalism.

Shared decision making is important here, but at some point, expertise needs to be trusted imo.

Does it change anyone's mind/perception to know that the "alternative treatment / wellness" industry is $6T in 2024 and projected to be $9T by 2028 by Global Wellness Institute?
What is "alternative/wellness" defined as? Where is the bulk of the $6T generated? How i think about that in relation to the Pharma medical complex depends on what we're considering alternative.
It's the things people turn to outside of standard medical care. You can go to Global Wellness Institute as I stated above and read up on everything that's included. I'm rather confident most here don't really have a good idea of what the "machine" is behind "alternate treatments"
Could be true. As someone that's a pretty firm believer in science over woo I've had the experience of needing to look behind the curtain of "alternative" treatments for care and it's not all dangerous or based in fantasy. Plenty is, there's no doubt about that. Something like sauna that I'm guessing isn't something a doctor would prescribe, but can be found at a wellness clinic would be an example I would use. I'll look at the resource you've mentioned, but "alternative" comes with a negative connotation, but the definition needs narrowing as i don't think everything outside of standard care is negative. Maybe I'm being nit picky looking for a definition past what you've given.
Again. We'll take the 80/20 rule here. In this case, I'm going 90/10 rule. Yeah, you'll find some examples of "positive" alternate treatments. They are very much the exception in that world. And I only really pose this question, because for several pages the size of the industry and the "follow the money vibe" against standard medical care was a driving factor and a core theme. I am curious the reaction when we are shown that the "alternate" industry (which includes many many more "remedies/solutions" in scope) are 3-4 times as large by that measure.
That's fair. If we're following profit motives alternatives to western medicine are just as guilty of separating a fool from their money, probably a lot more and in this conversation it's easier to lump them into a singular basket. Like everything there's nuance to the conversation, but you point is taken.
This is right. So now Joe and others are left to reconcile the narrative they were asserting before. If an industry running at $2T in revenue and they should be questioned because, follow the money what kind of questiining/faith should there be placed in an industry running at double or triple that? Oh and by the way getting a fraction of the successful outcomes for that increased cost. And what does it say about those choosing the later given the lack of successful outcomes compared to those held to a higher, scientific standard generally speaking.
Nobody but you brought up alternative treatments. The argument was thinking for yourself versus blind faith in what the doctor says, not immediately seeking out alternative treatments. Definition of strawman. Read any of the examples provided by posters who knew better, they aren't alternative treatments.
To be fair, he brought it up because folks were essentially saying you can't trust doctors because of the profit motive. Many of those who refuse to follow modern medical treatments, who the original poster described as those who do their own their own research, buy these alternative treatments.

The point being there is a profit motive - generally with less rigorous training and regulation - among alternative treatments that those who do their own research and turn down modern medical treatments in favor of alternative treatments.

Not saying everyone does, but if you're turning down modern treatments, you're either doing nothing or using an alternative treatment.
:thanks:

Think I'm done here though. We can't even be honest around what the original premise was. There's really no point in continuing.
The OP had plenty of opportunity to correct people who you think aren't being honest about his original premise. Not only did he not do that, he responded to some of the criticism seemingly confirming the interpretation before he disappeared.
And he did, several times. As did I. Now you guys are doing the same thing to him in the satisfaction thread. He says "I mean X" and the responses are basically "well, it seems like your saying Y". Same stuff happening in that one that happened here.
Should be easy to provide a link then. Link?
I love posts like this from the "I do my own research" people asking you to do their research for them, but it takes two seconds and right on the first page so here you go. Read at the top. Bold for you and everything.

Asking people to support a point with a link so we can all be on the same page and understand the source material is not asking anyone to do research for them. It's called citing your sources when you make a point.
He’s talking about posts in this thread. Not sources to back up anything.

My mistake then. Apologies. I saw the last post that asked, "Should be easy to provide a link then. Link?" and thought they were asking for a link.
 
Admittedly, I usually cringe when people address their medical care in this manner. "Doing my own research" is on the short list of trigger phrases which bias me against a patient, along with "I know my own body" and "everybody's different", as these statements usually precede noncompliance with the suggested plan. I realize that's not ideal, and the link offers advice to communicate more effectively:

But you also understand why people ask questions, right?

I don't know you, of course, so I'm not saying you do this, but I know some people in the medical field who become indignant if the lowly patient dares to question even the smallest things as the medical person hands down the omniscient answers.

Medicine is business. A huge business. I do find it interesting how some people will blindly ignore the financial motivations that drive the business and somehow assume there's some sort of magical altruism to the business of healthcare, where the best interests of the customer are the only factor and the best interests of the company are ignored.
Translate this for me:

I mean to say: How do you think the financials drive the decision making? And how do you think the "do your own research" plays into the financials?

Medicine has always been considered an altruistic field. I think the majority of doctors go into it for true altruism. It may be declining. But I think the number is still greater than 50%.

I'm sure you can find a handful of doctors that don't want to answer questions. The majority of doctors are ok with "questions." The frustration isn't questions.

"Doing your own research" doesn't to me mean "Hey doc, I know you think I have low thyroid, can you tell me why you think that? Can you tell me why or how I got it? Can you tell me how it will affect me? Am I going to die young?"

"Doing your own research" typically translates to: "I have fatigue and low energy. I can't lose weight. I was researching this on the internet and I think I have this rare condition. I actually feel so strongly I have it based on what I've read, I'm not open to your other suggestions. In fact, we're going to argue and I may even find another physician if you continue to discuss more common diagnoses."
 
Admittedly, I usually cringe when people address their medical care in this manner. "Doing my own research" is on the short list of trigger phrases which bias me against a patient, along with "I know my own body" and "everybody's different", as these statements usually precede noncompliance with the suggested plan. I realize that's not ideal, and the link offers advice to communicate more effectively:

But you also understand why people ask questions, right?

I don't know you, of course, so I'm not saying you do this, but I know some people in the medical field who become indignant if the lowly patient dares to question even the smallest things as the medical person hands down the omniscient answers.

Medicine is business. A huge business. I do find it interesting how some people will blindly ignore the financial motivations that drive the business and somehow assume there's some sort of magical altruism to the business of healthcare, where the best interests of the customer are the only factor and the best interests of the company are ignored.
Translate this for me:

I mean to say: How do you think the financials drive the decision making? And how do you think the "do your own research" plays into the financials?

Medicine has always been considered an altruistic field. I think the majority of doctors go into it for true altruism. It may be declining. But I think the number is still greater than 50%.

I'm sure you can find a handful of doctors that don't want to answer questions. The majority of doctors are ok with "questions." The frustration isn't questions.

"Doing your own research" doesn't to me mean "Hey doc, I know you think I have low thyroid, can you tell me why you think that? Can you tell me why or how I got it? Can you tell me how it will affect me? Am I going to die young?"

"Doing your own research" typically translates to: "I have fatigue and low energy. I can't lose weight. I was researching this on the internet and I think I have this rare condition. I actually feel so strongly I have it based on what I've read, I'm not open to your other suggestions. In fact, we're going to argue and I may even find another physician if you continue to discuss more common diagnoses."

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand. What do you want me to "translate"? Each statement? And translate how? To what I think each statement might mean to me?
 
I get how it could be annoying when patients come in claiming to have done their own research but at the same time what do you expect when drug companies are allowed to pepper the airwaves with ads urging people to “ask your doctor” about specific medications? Doesn't it kind of trains patients to see themselves as part of the diagnostic process? Especially in a time where all doctors are not created equal. I had a great doctor for about 15 years until he retired. Since then have gone through three gps trying to find someone even half decent.
I don’t think most healthcare providers are producing those ads, nor do they approve of them.

Also, it’s completely appropriate to ask questions, and seek multiple sources regarding the answers to complex medical quandaries. The problem is, more often than not, self “research” yields incomplete, erroneous conclusions, and patients seem less willing to defer to expertise in grey areas.

At some point, it’s a battle not worth fighting.

To be clear, I’m not expecting blind faith in experts, in any field.

But in medicine, it seems some “questions” aren’t really looking for answers at all; rather, they’re veiled demands for internet-inspired testing/treatment. Or worse, part of a quasi-political agenda.

A big part of this is uncertainty in the process. There are large swaths of medicine which lack evidence-based guidance. Clinicians must elaborate these limits, and prescribe without paternalism.

Shared decision making is important here, but at some point, expertise needs to be trusted imo.

Does it change anyone's mind/perception to know that the "alternative treatment / wellness" industry is $6T in 2024 and projected to be $9T by 2028 by Global Wellness Institute?
What is "alternative/wellness" defined as? Where is the bulk of the $6T generated? How i think about that in relation to the Pharma medical complex depends on what we're considering alternative.
It's the things people turn to outside of standard medical care. You can go to Global Wellness Institute as I stated above and read up on everything that's included. I'm rather confident most here don't really have a good idea of what the "machine" is behind "alternate treatments"
Could be true. As someone that's a pretty firm believer in science over woo I've had the experience of needing to look behind the curtain of "alternative" treatments for care and it's not all dangerous or based in fantasy. Plenty is, there's no doubt about that. Something like sauna that I'm guessing isn't something a doctor would prescribe, but can be found at a wellness clinic would be an example I would use. I'll look at the resource you've mentioned, but "alternative" comes with a negative connotation, but the definition needs narrowing as i don't think everything outside of standard care is negative. Maybe I'm being nit picky looking for a definition past what you've given.
Again. We'll take the 80/20 rule here. In this case, I'm going 90/10 rule. Yeah, you'll find some examples of "positive" alternate treatments. They are very much the exception in that world. And I only really pose this question, because for several pages the size of the industry and the "follow the money vibe" against standard medical care was a driving factor and a core theme. I am curious the reaction when we are shown that the "alternate" industry (which includes many many more "remedies/solutions" in scope) are 3-4 times as large by that measure.
That's fair. If we're following profit motives alternatives to western medicine are just as guilty of separating a fool from their money, probably a lot more and in this conversation it's easier to lump them into a singular basket. Like everything there's nuance to the conversation, but you point is taken.
This is right. So now Joe and others are left to reconcile the narrative they were asserting before. If an industry running at $2T in revenue and they should be questioned because, follow the money what kind of questiining/faith should there be placed in an industry running at double or triple that? Oh and by the way getting a fraction of the successful outcomes for that increased cost. And what does it say about those choosing the later given the lack of successful outcomes compared to those held to a higher, scientific standard generally speaking.
Nobody but you brought up alternative treatments. The argument was thinking for yourself versus blind faith in what the doctor says, not immediately seeking out alternative treatments. Definition of strawman. Read any of the examples provided by posters who knew better, they aren't alternative treatments.
To be fair, he brought it up because folks were essentially saying you can't trust doctors because of the profit motive. Many of those who refuse to follow modern medical treatments, who the original poster described as those who do their own their own research, buy these alternative treatments.

The point being there is a profit motive - generally with less rigorous training and regulation - among alternative treatments that those who do their own research and turn down modern medical treatments in favor of alternative treatments.

Not saying everyone does, but if you're turning down modern treatments, you're either doing nothing or using an alternative treatment.
:thanks:

Think I'm done here though. We can't even be honest around what the original premise was. There's really no point in continuing.
The OP had plenty of opportunity to correct people who you think aren't being honest about his original premise. Not only did he not do that, he responded to some of the criticism seemingly confirming the interpretation before he disappeared.
And he did, several times. As did I. Now you guys are doing the same thing to him in the satisfaction thread. He says "I mean X" and the responses are basically "well, it seems like your saying Y". Same stuff happening in that one that happened here.
Should be easy to provide a link then. Link?
I love posts like this from the "I do my own research" people asking you to do their research for them, but it takes two seconds and right on the first page so here you go. Read at the top. Bold for you and everything.
Try reading the last sentence in conjuction with that.

Shared decision making is important here, but at some point, expertise needs to be trusted imo.
It was pretty easy to determine that was the post you were going to point to. That's the one time he hesitated and started to back off his position, but, by the end of the post the experts still reign supreme.
 
Last edited:
Only thing I will add to this topic is from personal experience. My mother was a hospital administrator for over 40 years, she managed doctors. Her distain for insurance’s influence on the medical practice and the decisions doctors are often pushed into making is palpable. She’s also obviously worked with hundred of doctors in her time. Her opinion, if you’d ask her, they’ll people. Some were absolutely the best of the human race and others are awful human beings, some were money hungry and others were care driven . They’re Just like the rest of us, a mixed bag.

My personal experience, I’ve had my same primary care doctor since I was 19. He’s absolutely fantastic. About 15 years ago he got tired of being bullied by insurance companies and forced to see twice the appointments a day just to earn a living. He stopped taking insurance completely, but he’s able now to give the type of care he wants to. He lost about half his clients but when you go see him now, he sits down spends all the time that is needed with you to discuss whatever it is you wanna talk about. there is zero rush and he’ll answer any questions you have about whatever research you’ve done. I’ve never for one second in my 30 years of seeing him questioned he isn’t doing everything he can to help me with whatever I’m dealing with (and I’ve had/have some crazy ****). I personally couldn’t ask for better healthcare.
 
Only thing I will add to this topic is from personal experience. My mother was a hospital administrator for over 40 years she managed doctors. Her distain for insurance’s influence on the medical practice and the decisions doctors are often push into making is palpable. She’s also obviously worked with hundred of doctors in her time. Your opinion, if you’d ask her, they’ll people. Some were absolutely the best of the human race and others are awful human beings. Just like the rest of us.

My personal experience, I’ve had my same primary care doctor since I was 19. He’s absolutely fantastic. About 15 years ago he got tired of being bullied by insurance companies and forced to see twice the appointments a day just to earn a living. He stopped taking insurance completely, but he’s able now to give the type of care he wants to. He lost about half his clients but when you go see him now, he sits down spends all the time that is needed with you to discuss whatever it is you wanna talk about. there is zero rush and he’ll answer any questions you have about whatever research you’ve done. I’ve never for one second in my 30 years of seeing him questioned he isn’t doing everything he can to help me with whatever I’m dealing with (and I’ve had/have some crazy ****). I personally couldn’t ask for better healthcare.
I have 2 cousins that are drs. They both moved to NZ so they could practice medicine without the constraints of the US medical racket. Insurance etc
 
Admittedly, I usually cringe when people address their medical care in this manner. "Doing my own research" is on the short list of trigger phrases which bias me against a patient, along with "I know my own body" and "everybody's different", as these statements usually precede noncompliance with the suggested plan. I realize that's not ideal, and the link offers advice to communicate more effectively:

But you also understand why people ask questions, right?

I don't know you, of course, so I'm not saying you do this, but I know some people in the medical field who become indignant if the lowly patient dares to question even the smallest things as the medical person hands down the omniscient answers.

Medicine is business. A huge business. I do find it interesting how some people will blindly ignore the financial motivations that drive the business and somehow assume there's some sort of magical altruism to the business of healthcare, where the best interests of the customer are the only factor and the best interests of the company are ignored.
Translate this for me:

I mean to say: How do you think the financials drive the decision making? And how do you think the "do your own research" plays into the financials?

Medicine has always been considered an altruistic field. I think the majority of doctors go into it for true altruism. It may be declining. But I think the number is still greater than 50%.

I'm sure you can find a handful of doctors that don't want to answer questions. The majority of doctors are ok with "questions." The frustration isn't questions.

"Doing your own research" doesn't to me mean "Hey doc, I know you think I have low thyroid, can you tell me why you think that? Can you tell me why or how I got it? Can you tell me how it will affect me? Am I going to die young?"

"Doing your own research" typically translates to: "I have fatigue and low energy. I can't lose weight. I was researching this on the internet and I think I have this rare condition. I actually feel so strongly I have it based on what I've read, I'm not open to your other suggestions. In fact, we're going to argue and I may even find another physician if you continue to discuss more common diagnoses."

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand. What do you want me to "translate"? Each statement? And translate how? To what I think each statement might mean to me?
Sorry, I meant to ask you to translate about the financials and then just kept typing.

You kind of imply the financials drive some of this sentiment to discourage doing your own research. How in your mind do the financials play into that?

I don't discourage questions, and don't think any of us should. When I read or hear "I did my own research and..." I think of someone who has come up with their own ideas and plans and they want them implemented--usually to the point they can't/won't be persuaded otherwise. If I do or don't do what they want--it really doesn't change the finances.

A lot of times people want unnecessary tests or imaging. I'd argue the Health Care system I work for makes more money off of unnecessary tests and imaging.

Your posts seem to imply the discouraging your own research as saving the system money or makes myself more money. How do you see the financials playing out where myself or the system makes more money in this scenario?
 
@jm192

Maybe you missed it or don't know. But I'm genuinely curious. Maybe it's just me. My only guess is that most everything is found in the bloodwork these days.

Why don't most doctors (in my experience) perform a full battery of tests during a physical anymore? Turn your head and caugh, prostate exam, reflexes, coordination, look in my ears and throat etc. etc.
 
Admittedly, I usually cringe when people address their medical care in this manner. "Doing my own research" is on the short list of trigger phrases which bias me against a patient, along with "I know my own body" and "everybody's different", as these statements usually precede noncompliance with the suggested plan. I realize that's not ideal, and the link offers advice to communicate more effectively:

But you also understand why people ask questions, right?

I don't know you, of course, so I'm not saying you do this, but I know some people in the medical field who become indignant if the lowly patient dares to question even the smallest things as the medical person hands down the omniscient answers.

Medicine is business. A huge business. I do find it interesting how some people will blindly ignore the financial motivations that drive the business and somehow assume there's some sort of magical altruism to the business of healthcare, where the best interests of the customer are the only factor and the best interests of the company are ignored.
Translate this for me:

I mean to say: How do you think the financials drive the decision making? And how do you think the "do your own research" plays into the financials?

Medicine has always been considered an altruistic field. I think the majority of doctors go into it for true altruism. It may be declining. But I think the number is still greater than 50%.

I'm sure you can find a handful of doctors that don't want to answer questions. The majority of doctors are ok with "questions." The frustration isn't questions.

"Doing your own research" doesn't to me mean "Hey doc, I know you think I have low thyroid, can you tell me why you think that? Can you tell me why or how I got it? Can you tell me how it will affect me? Am I going to die young?"

"Doing your own research" typically translates to: "I have fatigue and low energy. I can't lose weight. I was researching this on the internet and I think I have this rare condition. I actually feel so strongly I have it based on what I've read, I'm not open to your other suggestions. In fact, we're going to argue and I may even find another physician if you continue to discuss more common diagnoses."

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand. What do you want me to "translate"? Each statement? And translate how? To what I think each statement might mean to me?
Sorry, I meant to ask you to translate about the financials and then just kept typing.

You kind of imply the financials drive some of this sentiment to discourage doing your own research. How in your mind do the financials play into that?

I don't discourage questions, and don't think any of us should. When I read or hear "I did my own research and..." I think of someone who has come up with their own ideas and plans and they want them implemented--usually to the point they can't/won't be persuaded otherwise. If I do or don't do what they want--it really doesn't change the finances.

A lot of times people want unnecessary tests or imaging. I'd argue the Health Care system I work for makes more money off of unnecessary tests and imaging.

Your posts seem to imply the discouraging your own research as saving the system money or makes myself more money. How do you see the financials playing out where myself or the system makes more money in this scenario?

Thanks.

Sorry if I gave that impression the financials of the industry discourage doing your research.

I don't think that. What I'm saying in a big picture sense is the Medical Industrial Complex (which obviously includes much more than just physicians) is a gigantic for profit business and they make decisions that are best for them financially.

I'm glad to hear you don't discourage questions. I'm sure tons of other physicians are the same. I know my physician welcomes them.

I think discouraging someone from doing their own research and asking questions is just a bad thing in general. In any field. I'd say the same thing of a lawyer or an accountant or a pastor or a fantasy football advice site. (Sound like there's a joke in there somewhere)
 
@jm192

Maybe you missed it or don't know. But I'm genuinely curious. Maybe it's just me. My only guess is that most everything is found in the bloodwork these days.

Why don't most doctors (in my experience) perform a full battery of tests during a physical anymore? Turn your head and caugh, prostate exam, reflexes, coordination, look in my ears and throat etc. etc.
I do what I consider a basic head to toe exam.

I listen to heart and lungs. I listen to and palpate the abdomen. I check eyes ears nose and throat. I feel the neck, lymph nodes, thyroid. I do a basic skin exam. We look at things like muscle tone. I usually do test gait and such, but I don't state that I'm examining that. It's often "See ya at the next appointment" and then I see you walk out. If something is grossly off, I've pulled patients back into the room.

On a typical adult physical, I don't test reflexes routinely. I test reflexes if I have a reason to be concerned they could be out of whack. I will certainly check them if someone wants it done/requests it, and I think most doctors will. Certainly if there's a neurological concern or history, that changes it.

A lot of doctors still do prostate and hernia exams. I think less and less patients want those exams on a "routine" basis. People don't like being exposed in that manner. If I'm thinking about screening you for prostate cancer, I'm doing a PSA blood test anyways. And then if that's elevated, you're going to meet the Urologist who will do a Prostate exam. A lot of guys tell me they certainly don't want 2 of those.

Hernias: An incidental hernia doesn't have to be fixed obviously. If it's not bothering you, it's unlikely I'm going to find something. And even if I do, we'll watch it. So the question for a lot of doctors: Does the patient want to drop their pants and go through the exam to be told "Yup, there's a hernia, but since you're not having issues, we'll just watch it."
 
Let's be honest, a lot of general practitioners are bad doctors. The family doctor is just a clearing house for specialist referrals. I'm so glad my insurance doesn't require referrals to see specialists. Listening to your heart, taking bloodwork and talking to you for 2 minutes constitutes having a physical now days. $500! Wait "insurance adjustment" you only owe $125! I know people that work in hospital billing and even they can't figure it out.
Might want to look into some better insurance. I haven’t paid for a yearly physical in 20? Years
That's part of the frustration. All preventative care, including physicals, are covered. More than once I've gotten a bill. I've taken the time before to figure out who made the mistake and get the doctor to correct the billing and insurance to issue a refund.

On that note - just recently the hospital calls the day before surgery and says "pay your estimated amount now and get 10% off!" Wow what a deal. Then they end up charging me 3 grand over what I was responsible for. 3 grand. In the mean time I have to pay the credit card bill and it takes almost 4 months of me pestering them to finally get the money back. 4 months holding my money collecting interest. Won't make that mistake again.

For $100 it's almost better to pay the bill and keep the recipet for the HSA than spend the time. But 3 grand is significant. And the whole time I'm taking to the wife wondering how in the heck 80 and 90 year old patients are supposed to keep track and make sure they're not getting taken advantage of. The billing with all the kick backs to the insurance companies cant get more confusing. It just screams corruption.
 
Only thing I will add to this topic is from personal experience. My mother was a hospital administrator for over 40 years, she managed doctors. Her distain for insurance’s influence on the medical practice and the decisions doctors are often pushed into making is palpable. She’s also obviously worked with hundred of doctors in her time. Her opinion, if you’d ask her, they’ll people. Some were absolutely the best of the human race and others are awful human beings, some were money hungry and others were care driven . They’re Just like the rest of us, a mixed bag.

My personal experience, I’ve had my same primary care doctor since I was 19. He’s absolutely fantastic. About 15 years ago he got tired of being bullied by insurance companies and forced to see twice the appointments a day just to earn a living. He stopped taking insurance completely, but he’s able now to give the type of care he wants to. He lost about half his clients but when you go see him now, he sits down spends all the time that is needed with you to discuss whatever it is you wanna talk about. there is zero rush and he’ll answer any questions you have about whatever research you’ve done. I’ve never for one second in my 30 years of seeing him questioned he isn’t doing everything he can to help me with whatever I’m dealing with (and I’ve had/have some crazy ****). I personally couldn’t ask for better healthcare.

That's awesome you're able to afford healthcare like that and you have the system in place for it.

My doctor operates in the regular system but I have the same kind of excellent experiences you're describing.
 
Admittedly, I usually cringe when people address their medical care in this manner. "Doing my own research" is on the short list of trigger phrases which bias me against a patient, along with "I know my own body" and "everybody's different", as these statements usually precede noncompliance with the suggested plan. I realize that's not ideal, and the link offers advice to communicate more effectively:

But you also understand why people ask questions, right?

I don't know you, of course, so I'm not saying you do this, but I know some people in the medical field who become indignant if the lowly patient dares to question even the smallest things as the medical person hands down the omniscient answers.

Medicine is business. A huge business. I do find it interesting how some people will blindly ignore the financial motivations that drive the business and somehow assume there's some sort of magical altruism to the business of healthcare, where the best interests of the customer are the only factor and the best interests of the company are ignored.
Translate this for me:

I mean to say: How do you think the financials drive the decision making? And how do you think the "do your own research" plays into the financials?

Medicine has always been considered an altruistic field. I think the majority of doctors go into it for true altruism. It may be declining. But I think the number is still greater than 50%.

I'm sure you can find a handful of doctors that don't want to answer questions. The majority of doctors are ok with "questions." The frustration isn't questions.

"Doing your own research" doesn't to me mean "Hey doc, I know you think I have low thyroid, can you tell me why you think that? Can you tell me why or how I got it? Can you tell me how it will affect me? Am I going to die young?"

"Doing your own research" typically translates to: "I have fatigue and low energy. I can't lose weight. I was researching this on the internet and I think I have this rare condition. I actually feel so strongly I have it based on what I've read, I'm not open to your other suggestions. In fact, we're going to argue and I may even find another physician if you continue to discuss more common diagnoses."

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand. What do you want me to "translate"? Each statement? And translate how? To what I think each statement might mean to me?
Sorry, I meant to ask you to translate about the financials and then just kept typing.

You kind of imply the financials drive some of this sentiment to discourage doing your own research. How in your mind do the financials play into that?

I don't discourage questions, and don't think any of us should. When I read or hear "I did my own research and..." I think of someone who has come up with their own ideas and plans and they want them implemented--usually to the point they can't/won't be persuaded otherwise. If I do or don't do what they want--it really doesn't change the finances.

A lot of times people want unnecessary tests or imaging. I'd argue the Health Care system I work for makes more money off of unnecessary tests and imaging.

Your posts seem to imply the discouraging your own research as saving the system money or makes myself more money. How do you see the financials playing out where myself or the system makes more money in this scenario?

Thanks.

Sorry if I gave that impression the financials of the industry discourage doing your research.

I don't think that. What I'm saying in a big picture sense is the Medical Industrial Complex (which obviously includes much more than just physicians) is a gigantic for profit business and they make decisions that are best for them financially.

I'm glad to hear you don't discourage questions. I'm sure tons of other physicians are the same. I know my physician welcomes them.

I think discouraging someone from doing their own research and asking questions is just a bad thing in general. In any field. I'd say the same thing of a lawyer or an accountant or a pastor or a fantasy football advice site. (Sound like there's a joke in there somewhere)

Also @jm192 I've posted a bunch in this thread (probably too much), if you let me know my exact post that I can elaborate on or try to be more clear on, please let me know and I'll try.
 
@jm192

Maybe you missed it or don't know. But I'm genuinely curious. Maybe it's just me. My only guess is that most everything is found in the bloodwork these days.

Why don't most doctors (in my experience) perform a full battery of tests during a physical anymore? Turn your head and caugh, prostate exam, reflexes, coordination, look in my ears and throat etc. etc.
I do what I consider a basic head to toe exam.

I listen to heart and lungs. I listen to and palpate the abdomen. I check eyes ears nose and throat. I feel the neck, lymph nodes, thyroid. I do a basic skin exam. We look at things like muscle tone. I usually do test gait and such, but I don't state that I'm examining that. It's often "See ya at the next appointment" and then I see you walk out. If something is grossly off, I've pulled patients back into the room.

On a typical adult physical, I don't test reflexes routinely. I test reflexes if I have a reason to be concerned they could be out of whack. I will certainly check them if someone wants it done/requests it, and I think most doctors will. Certainly if there's a neurological concern or history, that changes it.

A lot of doctors still do prostate and hernia exams. I think less and less patients want those exams on a "routine" basis. People don't like being exposed in that manner. If I'm thinking about screening you for prostate cancer, I'm doing a PSA blood test anyways. And then if that's elevated, you're going to meet the Urologist who will do a Prostate exam. A lot of guys tell me they certainly don't want 2 of those.

Hernias: An incidental hernia doesn't have to be fixed obviously. If it's not bothering you, it's unlikely I'm going to find something. And even if I do, we'll watch it. So the question for a lot of doctors: Does the patient want to drop their pants and go through the exam to be told "Yup, there's a hernia, but since you're not having issues, we'll just watch it."
Thanks!

I don't mind because I don't need a doctor to tell me if I had a hernia. But it seemed like a big departure from the battery you would have received 20 years ago. None of my doctors asked. 2 minute discussion, listen to my heart and out the door to take blood.
 
Only thing I will add to this topic is from personal experience. My mother was a hospital administrator for over 40 years, she managed doctors. Her distain for insurance’s influence on the medical practice and the decisions doctors are often pushed into making is palpable. She’s also obviously worked with hundred of doctors in her time. Her opinion, if you’d ask her, they’ll people. Some were absolutely the best of the human race and others are awful human beings, some were money hungry and others were care driven . They’re Just like the rest of us, a mixed bag.

My personal experience, I’ve had my same primary care doctor since I was 19. He’s absolutely fantastic. About 15 years ago he got tired of being bullied by insurance companies and forced to see twice the appointments a day just to earn a living. He stopped taking insurance completely, but he’s able now to give the type of care he wants to. He lost about half his clients but when you go see him now, he sits down spends all the time that is needed with you to discuss whatever it is you wanna talk about. there is zero rush and he’ll answer any questions you have about whatever research you’ve done. I’ve never for one second in my 30 years of seeing him questioned he isn’t doing everything he can to help me with whatever I’m dealing with (and I’ve had/have some crazy ****). I personally couldn’t ask for better healthcare.

That's awesome you're able to afford healthcare like that and you have the system in place for it.

My doctor operates in the regular system but I have the same kind of excellent experiences you're describing.
I still use my insurance, just have to pay him for a full Dr visit and get reimbursed by my insurance. He’s in network. His office puts all the paperwork together for you, envelope and postage too. I just fill it out and send it in.
 
Only thing I will add to this topic is from personal experience. My mother was a hospital administrator for over 40 years, she managed doctors. Her distain for insurance’s influence on the medical practice and the decisions doctors are often pushed into making is palpable. She’s also obviously worked with hundred of doctors in her time. Her opinion, if you’d ask her, they’ll people. Some were absolutely the best of the human race and others are awful human beings, some were money hungry and others were care driven . They’re Just like the rest of us, a mixed bag.

My personal experience, I’ve had my same primary care doctor since I was 19. He’s absolutely fantastic. About 15 years ago he got tired of being bullied by insurance companies and forced to see twice the appointments a day just to earn a living. He stopped taking insurance completely, but he’s able now to give the type of care he wants to. He lost about half his clients but when you go see him now, he sits down spends all the time that is needed with you to discuss whatever it is you wanna talk about. there is zero rush and he’ll answer any questions you have about whatever research you’ve done. I’ve never for one second in my 30 years of seeing him questioned he isn’t doing everything he can to help me with whatever I’m dealing with (and I’ve had/have some crazy ****). I personally couldn’t ask for better healthcare.
Glad you have a great experience. My main doctor does not take insurance either and it's more expensive but I love it. She answers questions and usually explains things before I even ask questions. She can prescribe prescriptions, if necessary, but prefers to treat with supplements. She sells some of them herself but has actually told me before where I could order them with a cheaper price. I have no reason to think she's a money grab at all and more importantly, she actually fixes problems and doesn't just treat symptoms.

I do have a PCP that takes my insurance where I can get the yearly physical or referrals to specialists (hello insurance/doctor BS!!). The last physical I had went well with no health issues. I described a couple of things that I've experienced (slight shoulder pain, for example) but wasn't concerned about yet and left there with about 5 prescriptions for things like muscle relaxers and anti-inflammatory drugs. It was weird and honestly kind of gross. They just want to rotate people in and out because that's more profitable and I'm sure the drug reps give them kickbacks to prescribe their drugs.

I asked above and no one answered, of course. Why would any drug company need to advertise prescription drugs on TV? They are basically telling us to go to their doctor and tell the doctor what we want. It's not like I can go get my choice of heart medicine, cholesterol medicine or blood pressure medicine at the local CVS without going through a doctor. Who are they targeting with their advertising?
 
Only thing I will add to this topic is from personal experience. My mother was a hospital administrator for over 40 years, she managed doctors. Her distain for insurance’s influence on the medical practice and the decisions doctors are often pushed into making is palpable. She’s also obviously worked with hundred of doctors in her time. Her opinion, if you’d ask her, they’ll people. Some were absolutely the best of the human race and others are awful human beings, some were money hungry and others were care driven . They’re Just like the rest of us, a mixed bag.

My personal experience, I’ve had my same primary care doctor since I was 19. He’s absolutely fantastic. About 15 years ago he got tired of being bullied by insurance companies and forced to see twice the appointments a day just to earn a living. He stopped taking insurance completely, but he’s able now to give the type of care he wants to. He lost about half his clients but when you go see him now, he sits down spends all the time that is needed with you to discuss whatever it is you wanna talk about. there is zero rush and he’ll answer any questions you have about whatever research you’ve done. I’ve never for one second in my 30 years of seeing him questioned he isn’t doing everything he can to help me with whatever I’m dealing with (and I’ve had/have some crazy ****). I personally couldn’t ask for better healthcare.
Glad you have a great experience. My main doctor does not take insurance either and it's more expensive but I love it. She answers questions and usually explains things before I even ask questions. She can prescribe prescriptions, if necessary, but prefers to treat with supplements. She sells some of them herself but has actually told me before where I could order them with a cheaper price. I have no reason to think she's a money grab at all and more importantly, she actually fixes problems and doesn't just treat symptoms.

I do have a PCP that takes my insurance where I can get the yearly physical or referrals to specialists (hello insurance/doctor BS!!). The last physical I had went well with no health issues. I described a couple of things that I've experienced (slight shoulder pain, for example) but wasn't concerned about yet and left there with about 5 prescriptions for things like muscle relaxers and anti-inflammatory drugs. It was weird and honestly kind of gross. They just want to rotate people in and out because that's more profitable and I'm sure the drug reps give them kickbacks to prescribe their drugs.

I asked above and no one answered, of course. Why would any drug company need to advertise prescription drugs on TV? They are basically telling us to go to their doctor and tell the doctor what we want. It's not like I can go get my choice of heart medicine, cholesterol medicine or blood pressure medicine at the local CVS without going through a doctor. Who are they targeting with their advertising?
Most of the commercials end by saying "Talk to your doctor to see if Drug XYZ is right for you!"

They quite literally want you to see the commercial and go talk to your doctor about it. Of course you can't write for your own meds. But you can certainly ask your doctor about them.

I don't think any doctor minds the "Hey, I saw the new Jardiance commercial would that be good for me?"

I get frustrated by the "My A1C is 12. My friend is on Jardiance so I want that, and that's all I'm going to take." If one is open to hearing my reasoning: Jardiance isn't going to provide the glycemic control needed to bring you from a 12 to <7.
 
I get how it could be annoying when patients come in claiming to have done their own research but at the same time what do you expect when drug companies are allowed to pepper the airwaves with ads urging people to “ask your doctor” about specific medications? Doesn't it kind of trains patients to see themselves as part of the diagnostic process? Especially in a time where all doctors are not created equal. I had a great doctor for about 15 years until he retired. Since then have gone through three gps trying to find someone even half decent.
I don’t think most healthcare providers are producing those ads, nor do they approve of them.

Also, it’s completely appropriate to ask questions, and seek multiple sources regarding the answers to complex medical quandaries. The problem is, more often than not, self “research” yields incomplete, erroneous conclusions, and patients seem less willing to defer to expertise in grey areas.

At some point, it’s a battle not worth fighting.

To be clear, I’m not expecting blind faith in experts, in any field.

But in medicine, it seems some “questions” aren’t really looking for answers at all; rather, they’re veiled demands for internet-inspired testing/treatment. Or worse, part of a quasi-political agenda.

A big part of this is uncertainty in the process. There are large swaths of medicine which lack evidence-based guidance. Clinicians must elaborate these limits, and prescribe without paternalism.

Shared decision making is important here, but at some point, expertise needs to be trusted imo.

Does it change anyone's mind/perception to know that the "alternative treatment / wellness" industry is $6T in 2024 and projected to be $9T by 2028 by Global Wellness Institute?
What is "alternative/wellness" defined as? Where is the bulk of the $6T generated? How i think about that in relation to the Pharma medical complex depends on what we're considering alternative.
It's the things people turn to outside of standard medical care. You can go to Global Wellness Institute as I stated above and read up on everything that's included. I'm rather confident most here don't really have a good idea of what the "machine" is behind "alternate treatments"
Could be true. As someone that's a pretty firm believer in science over woo I've had the experience of needing to look behind the curtain of "alternative" treatments for care and it's not all dangerous or based in fantasy. Plenty is, there's no doubt about that. Something like sauna that I'm guessing isn't something a doctor would prescribe, but can be found at a wellness clinic would be an example I would use. I'll look at the resource you've mentioned, but "alternative" comes with a negative connotation, but the definition needs narrowing as i don't think everything outside of standard care is negative. Maybe I'm being nit picky looking for a definition past what you've given.
Again. We'll take the 80/20 rule here. In this case, I'm going 90/10 rule. Yeah, you'll find some examples of "positive" alternate treatments. They are very much the exception in that world. And I only really pose this question, because for several pages the size of the industry and the "follow the money vibe" against standard medical care was a driving factor and a core theme. I am curious the reaction when we are shown that the "alternate" industry (which includes many many more "remedies/solutions" in scope) are 3-4 times as large by that measure.
That's fair. If we're following profit motives alternatives to western medicine are just as guilty of separating a fool from their money, probably a lot more and in this conversation it's easier to lump them into a singular basket. Like everything there's nuance to the conversation, but you point is taken.
This is right. So now Joe and others are left to reconcile the narrative they were asserting before. If an industry running at $2T in revenue and they should be questioned because, follow the money what kind of questiining/faith should there be placed in an industry running at double or triple that? Oh and by the way getting a fraction of the successful outcomes for that increased cost. And what does it say about those choosing the later given the lack of successful outcomes compared to those held to a higher, scientific standard generally speaking.
Nobody but you brought up alternative treatments. The argument was thinking for yourself versus blind faith in what the doctor says, not immediately seeking out alternative treatments. Definition of strawman. Read any of the examples provided by posters who knew better, they aren't alternative treatments.
To be fair, he brought it up because folks were essentially saying you can't trust doctors because of the profit motive. Many of those who refuse to follow modern medical treatments, who the original poster described as those who do their own their own research, buy these alternative treatments.

The point being there is a profit motive - generally with less rigorous training and regulation - among alternative treatments that those who do their own research and turn down modern medical treatments in favor of alternative treatments.

Not saying everyone does, but if you're turning down modern treatments, you're either doing nothing or using an alternative treatment.
:thanks:

Think I'm done here though. We can't even be honest around what the original premise was. There's really no point in continuing.
The OP had plenty of opportunity to correct people who you think aren't being honest about his original premise. Not only did he not do that, he responded to some of the criticism seemingly confirming the interpretation before he disappeared.
And he did, several times. As did I. Now you guys are doing the same thing to him in the satisfaction thread. He says "I mean X" and the responses are basically "well, it seems like your saying Y". Same stuff happening in that one that happened here.
Should be easy to provide a link then. Link?
I love posts like this from the "I do my own research" people asking you to do their research for them, but it takes two seconds and right on the first page so here you go. Read at the top. Bold for you and everything.
Try reading the last sentence in conjuction with that.

Shared decision making is important here, but at some point, expertise needs to be trusted imo.
It was pretty easy to determine that was the post you were going to point to. That's the one time he hesitated and started to back off his position, but, by the end of the post the experts still reign supreme.
I'd hope it was easy to determine. I made no secrets in telling you what to go read. All this continues to fly in the face of "Term just wants people to blindly follow their doctors", even what you quoted here. I put the whole thing there for all to see for a reason. Neither of those supports your continued assertion. There are another 3-4 posts on subsequent pages making his clarifications as well but I didn't feel the need to post all of them. Didn't want to be seen as piling on.
 
Only thing I will add to this topic is from personal experience. My mother was a hospital administrator for over 40 years, she managed doctors. Her distain for insurance’s influence on the medical practice and the decisions doctors are often pushed into making is palpable. She’s also obviously worked with hundred of doctors in her time. Her opinion, if you’d ask her, they’ll people. Some were absolutely the best of the human race and others are awful human beings, some were money hungry and others were care driven . They’re Just like the rest of us, a mixed bag.

My personal experience, I’ve had my same primary care doctor since I was 19. He’s absolutely fantastic. About 15 years ago he got tired of being bullied by insurance companies and forced to see twice the appointments a day just to earn a living. He stopped taking insurance completely, but he’s able now to give the type of care he wants to. He lost about half his clients but when you go see him now, he sits down spends all the time that is needed with you to discuss whatever it is you wanna talk about. there is zero rush and he’ll answer any questions you have about whatever research you’ve done. I’ve never for one second in my 30 years of seeing him questioned he isn’t doing everything he can to help me with whatever I’m dealing with (and I’ve had/have some crazy ****). I personally couldn’t ask for better healthcare.
Glad you have a great experience. My main doctor does not take insurance either and it's more expensive but I love it. She answers questions and usually explains things before I even ask questions. She can prescribe prescriptions, if necessary, but prefers to treat with supplements. She sells some of them herself but has actually told me before where I could order them with a cheaper price. I have no reason to think she's a money grab at all and more importantly, she actually fixes problems and doesn't just treat symptoms.

I do have a PCP that takes my insurance where I can get the yearly physical or referrals to specialists (hello insurance/doctor BS!!). The last physical I had went well with no health issues. I described a couple of things that I've experienced (slight shoulder pain, for example) but wasn't concerned about yet and left there with about 5 prescriptions for things like muscle relaxers and anti-inflammatory drugs. It was weird and honestly kind of gross. They just want to rotate people in and out because that's more profitable and I'm sure the drug reps give them kickbacks to prescribe their drugs.

I asked above and no one answered, of course. Why would any drug company need to advertise prescription drugs on TV? They are basically telling us to go to their doctor and tell the doctor what we want. It's not like I can go get my choice of heart medicine, cholesterol medicine or blood pressure medicine at the local CVS without going through a doctor. Who are they targeting with their advertising?
Most of the commercials end by saying "Talk to your doctor to see if Drug XYZ is right for you!"

They quite literally want you to see the commercial and go talk to your doctor about it. Of course you can't write for your own meds. But you can certainly ask your doctor about them.

I don't think any doctor minds the "Hey, I saw the new Jardiance commercial would that be good for me?"

I get frustrated by the "My A1C is 12. My friend is on Jardiance so I want that, and that's all I'm going to take." If one is open to hearing my reasoning: Jardiance isn't going to provide the glycemic control needed to bring you from a 12 to <7.
Why would any patient needs to ask about a particular drug if the doctor is the expert and patient only "did his own research"? It's predatory and gro$$.
 
Only thing I will add to this topic is from personal experience. My mother was a hospital administrator for over 40 years, she managed doctors. Her distain for insurance’s influence on the medical practice and the decisions doctors are often pushed into making is palpable. She’s also obviously worked with hundred of doctors in her time. Her opinion, if you’d ask her, they’ll people. Some were absolutely the best of the human race and others are awful human beings, some were money hungry and others were care driven . They’re Just like the rest of us, a mixed bag.

My personal experience, I’ve had my same primary care doctor since I was 19. He’s absolutely fantastic. About 15 years ago he got tired of being bullied by insurance companies and forced to see twice the appointments a day just to earn a living. He stopped taking insurance completely, but he’s able now to give the type of care he wants to. He lost about half his clients but when you go see him now, he sits down spends all the time that is needed with you to discuss whatever it is you wanna talk about. there is zero rush and he’ll answer any questions you have about whatever research you’ve done. I’ve never for one second in my 30 years of seeing him questioned he isn’t doing everything he can to help me with whatever I’m dealing with (and I’ve had/have some crazy ****). I personally couldn’t ask for better healthcare.
Glad you have a great experience. My main doctor does not take insurance either and it's more expensive but I love it. She answers questions and usually explains things before I even ask questions. She can prescribe prescriptions, if necessary, but prefers to treat with supplements. She sells some of them herself but has actually told me before where I could order them with a cheaper price. I have no reason to think she's a money grab at all and more importantly, she actually fixes problems and doesn't just treat symptoms.

I do have a PCP that takes my insurance where I can get the yearly physical or referrals to specialists (hello insurance/doctor BS!!). The last physical I had went well with no health issues. I described a couple of things that I've experienced (slight shoulder pain, for example) but wasn't concerned about yet and left there with about 5 prescriptions for things like muscle relaxers and anti-inflammatory drugs. It was weird and honestly kind of gross. They just want to rotate people in and out because that's more profitable and I'm sure the drug reps give them kickbacks to prescribe their drugs.

I asked above and no one answered, of course. Why would any drug company need to advertise prescription drugs on TV? They are basically telling us to go to their doctor and tell the doctor what we want. It's not like I can go get my choice of heart medicine, cholesterol medicine or blood pressure medicine at the local CVS without going through a doctor. Who are they targeting with their advertising?
Most of the commercials end by saying "Talk to your doctor to see if Drug XYZ is right for you!"

They quite literally want you to see the commercial and go talk to your doctor about it. Of course you can't write for your own meds. But you can certainly ask your doctor about them.

I don't think any doctor minds the "Hey, I saw the new Jardiance commercial would that be good for me?"

I get frustrated by the "My A1C is 12. My friend is on Jardiance so I want that, and that's all I'm going to take." If one is open to hearing my reasoning: Jardiance isn't going to provide the glycemic control needed to bring you from a 12 to <7.
Why would any patient needs to ask about a particular drug if the doctor is the expert and patient only "did his own research"? It's predatory and gro$$.
I’m a pretty centered and mellow person, it’s just my nature, but I literally despise those drug commercials. They actually make me angry now especially after watching that documentary-drama on Netflix about the Sackler family.
 
Only thing I will add to this topic is from personal experience. My mother was a hospital administrator for over 40 years, she managed doctors. Her distain for insurance’s influence on the medical practice and the decisions doctors are often pushed into making is palpable. She’s also obviously worked with hundred of doctors in her time. Her opinion, if you’d ask her, they’ll people. Some were absolutely the best of the human race and others are awful human beings, some were money hungry and others were care driven . They’re Just like the rest of us, a mixed bag.

My personal experience, I’ve had my same primary care doctor since I was 19. He’s absolutely fantastic. About 15 years ago he got tired of being bullied by insurance companies and forced to see twice the appointments a day just to earn a living. He stopped taking insurance completely, but he’s able now to give the type of care he wants to. He lost about half his clients but when you go see him now, he sits down spends all the time that is needed with you to discuss whatever it is you wanna talk about. there is zero rush and he’ll answer any questions you have about whatever research you’ve done. I’ve never for one second in my 30 years of seeing him questioned he isn’t doing everything he can to help me with whatever I’m dealing with (and I’ve had/have some crazy ****). I personally couldn’t ask for better healthcare.
Glad you have a great experience. My main doctor does not take insurance either and it's more expensive but I love it. She answers questions and usually explains things before I even ask questions. She can prescribe prescriptions, if necessary, but prefers to treat with supplements. She sells some of them herself but has actually told me before where I could order them with a cheaper price. I have no reason to think she's a money grab at all and more importantly, she actually fixes problems and doesn't just treat symptoms.

I do have a PCP that takes my insurance where I can get the yearly physical or referrals to specialists (hello insurance/doctor BS!!). The last physical I had went well with no health issues. I described a couple of things that I've experienced (slight shoulder pain, for example) but wasn't concerned about yet and left there with about 5 prescriptions for things like muscle relaxers and anti-inflammatory drugs. It was weird and honestly kind of gross. They just want to rotate people in and out because that's more profitable and I'm sure the drug reps give them kickbacks to prescribe their drugs.

I asked above and no one answered, of course. Why would any drug company need to advertise prescription drugs on TV? They are basically telling us to go to their doctor and tell the doctor what we want. It's not like I can go get my choice of heart medicine, cholesterol medicine or blood pressure medicine at the local CVS without going through a doctor. Who are they targeting with their advertising?
Most of the commercials end by saying "Talk to your doctor to see if Drug XYZ is right for you!"

They quite literally want you to see the commercial and go talk to your doctor about it. Of course you can't write for your own meds. But you can certainly ask your doctor about them.

I don't think any doctor minds the "Hey, I saw the new Jardiance commercial would that be good for me?"

I get frustrated by the "My A1C is 12. My friend is on Jardiance so I want that, and that's all I'm going to take." If one is open to hearing my reasoning: Jardiance isn't going to provide the glycemic control needed to bring you from a 12 to <7.
Why would any patient needs to ask about a particular drug if the doctor is the expert and patient only "did his own research"? It's predatory and gro$$.
I don't so much mind the asking. If it's reasonable, I'll do it.

I don't think the point of this thread was "Patients should never have any input. You should never have a thought or suggestion."

There are times when patients do a lot of research on a topic. They feel that they are not only equipped to discuss it, but even more of an expert on the subject than the physician.

I'll give you a real example: 40 something year old obese male comes to see me about weight loss. "Doc, I'm worried I'm going to have a heart attack if I don't get the weight down. I know a lot of people who have had success on Wegovy. I really want to try that. Will you prescribe that?"

I ask my questions: What have you done as far as diet and exercise. Any history of pancreatitis? Any history of Thyroid cancer or family history (It's medullary thyroid cancer, but patients can't always remember what type someone had).

Patient: Yeah, actually my grandfather had really aggressive thyroid cancer. Died like 6 weeks after they found it.

Me: Yeah, so that's one of the reasons the drug company recommends you don't take it. We would be putting you at risk of thyroid cancer.

Patient: "I don't really care. I'm going to die from a heart attack if I don't get this weight down. Just give it to me."

You can see where maybe a doctor isn't prepared to just do what the patient wants, even if the patients feel their reasoning is good. I welcomed the discussion. I explained my reasoning for NOT honoring the request. And yet, "I don't really care about that, just do it cuz I want you to."
 
Only thing I will add to this topic is from personal experience. My mother was a hospital administrator for over 40 years, she managed doctors. Her distain for insurance’s influence on the medical practice and the decisions doctors are often pushed into making is palpable. She’s also obviously worked with hundred of doctors in her time. Her opinion, if you’d ask her, they’ll people. Some were absolutely the best of the human race and others are awful human beings, some were money hungry and others were care driven . They’re Just like the rest of us, a mixed bag.

My personal experience, I’ve had my same primary care doctor since I was 19. He’s absolutely fantastic. About 15 years ago he got tired of being bullied by insurance companies and forced to see twice the appointments a day just to earn a living. He stopped taking insurance completely, but he’s able now to give the type of care he wants to. He lost about half his clients but when you go see him now, he sits down spends all the time that is needed with you to discuss whatever it is you wanna talk about. there is zero rush and he’ll answer any questions you have about whatever research you’ve done. I’ve never for one second in my 30 years of seeing him questioned he isn’t doing everything he can to help me with whatever I’m dealing with (and I’ve had/have some crazy ****). I personally couldn’t ask for better healthcare.
Glad you have a great experience. My main doctor does not take insurance either and it's more expensive but I love it. She answers questions and usually explains things before I even ask questions. She can prescribe prescriptions, if necessary, but prefers to treat with supplements. She sells some of them herself but has actually told me before where I could order them with a cheaper price. I have no reason to think she's a money grab at all and more importantly, she actually fixes problems and doesn't just treat symptoms.

I do have a PCP that takes my insurance where I can get the yearly physical or referrals toy make specialists (hello insurance/doctor BS!!). The last physical I had went well with no health issues. I described a couple of things that I've experienced (slight shoulder pain, for example) but wasn't concerned about yet and left there with about 5 prescriptions for things like muscle relaxers and anti-inflammatory drugs. It was weird and honestly kind of gross. They just want to rotate people in and out because that's more profitable and I'm sure the drug reps give them kickbacks to prescribe their drugs.

I asked above and no one answered, of course. Why would any drug company need to advertise prescription drugs on TV? They are basically telling us to go to their doctor and tell the doctor what we want. It's not like I can go get my choice of heart medicine, cholesterol medicine or blood pressure medicine at the local CVS without going through a doctor. Who are they targeting with their advertising?
Most of the commercials end by saying "Talk to your doctor to see if Drug XYZ is right for you!"

They quite literally want you to see the commercial and go talk to your doctor about it. Of course you can't write for your own meds. But you can certainly ask your doctor about them.

I don't think any doctor minds the "Hey, I saw the new Jardiance commercial would that be good for me?"

I get frustrated by the "My A1C is 12. My friend is on Jardiance so I want that, and that's all I'm going to take." If one is open to hearing my reasoning: Jardiance isn't going to provide the glycemic control needed to bring you from a 12 to <7.
Why would any patient needs to ask about a particular drug if the doctor is the expert and patient only "did his own research"? It's predatory and gro$$.
And I'll add:

I'm not here to defend the drug companies. They make an absurd amount of money off of the brand name drugs. And then they play games/use all these loop holes to keep the drugs on brand name until the end of time.

I would be perfectly fine if drug companies weren't advertising directly to patients in that manner.

You certainly don't see commercials for Metformin or Lisinopril--
 
Only thing I will add to this topic is from personal experience. My mother was a hospital administrator for over 40 years, she managed doctors. Her distain for insurance’s influence on the medical practice and the decisions doctors are often pushed into making is palpable. She’s also obviously worked with hundred of doctors in her time. Her opinion, if you’d ask her, they’ll people. Some were absolutely the best of the human race and others are awful human beings, some were money hungry and others were care driven . They’re Just like the rest of us, a mixed bag.

My personal experience, I’ve had my same primary care doctor since I was 19. He’s absolutely fantastic. About 15 years ago he got tired of being bullied by insurance companies and forced to see twice the appointments a day just to earn a living. He stopped taking insurance completely, but he’s able now to give the type of care he wants to. He lost about half his clients but when you go see him now, he sits down spends all the time that is needed with you to discuss whatever it is you wanna talk about. there is zero rush and he’ll answer any questions you have about whatever research you’ve done. I’ve never for one second in my 30 years of seeing him questioned he isn’t doing everything he can to help me with whatever I’m dealing with (and I’ve had/have some crazy ****). I personally couldn’t ask for better healthcare.
Glad you have a great experience. My main doctor does not take insurance either and it's more expensive but I love it. She answers questions and usually explains things before I even ask questions. She can prescribe prescriptions, if necessary, but prefers to treat with supplements. She sells some of them herself but has actually told me before where I could order them with a cheaper price. I have no reason to think she's a money grab at all and more importantly, she actually fixes problems and doesn't just treat symptoms.

I do have a PCP that takes my insurance where I can get the yearly physical or referrals to specialists (hello insurance/doctor BS!!). The last physical I had went well with no health issues. I described a couple of things that I've experienced (slight shoulder pain, for example) but wasn't concerned about yet and left there with about 5 prescriptions for things like muscle relaxers and anti-inflammatory drugs. It was weird and honestly kind of gross. They just want to rotate people in and out because that's more profitable and I'm sure the drug reps give them kickbacks to prescribe their drugs.

I asked above and no one answered, of course. Why would any drug company need to advertise prescription drugs on TV? They are basically telling us to go to their doctor and tell the doctor what we want. It's not like I can go get my choice of heart medicine, cholesterol medicine or blood pressure medicine at the local CVS without going through a doctor. Who are they targeting with their advertising?
Most of the commercials end by saying "Talk to your doctor to see if Drug XYZ is right for you!"

They quite literally want you to see the commercial and go talk to your doctor about it. Of course you can't write for your own meds. But you can certainly ask your doctor about them.

I don't think any doctor minds the "Hey, I saw the new Jardiance commercial would that be good for me?"

I get frustrated by the "My A1C is 12. My friend is on Jardiance so I want that, and that's all I'm going to take." If one is open to hearing my reasoning: Jardiance isn't going to provide the glycemic control needed to bring you from a 12 to <7.
Why would any patient needs to ask about a particular drug if the doctor is the expert and patient only "did his own research"? It's predatory and gro$$.
I don't so much mind the asking. If it's reasonable, I'll do it.

I don't think the point of this thread was "Patients should never have any input. You should never have a thought or suggestion."

There are times when patients do a lot of research on a topic. They feel that they are not only equipped to discuss it, but even more of an expert on the subject than the physician.

I'll give you a real example: 40 something year old obese male comes to see me about weight loss. "Doc, I'm worried I'm going to have a heart attack if I don't get the weight down. I know a lot of people who have had success on Wegovy. I really want to try that. Will you prescribe that?"

I ask my questions: What have you done as far as diet and exercise. Any history of pancreatitis? Any history of Thyroid cancer or family history (It's medullary thyroid cancer, but patients can't always remember what type someone had).

Patient: Yeah, actually my grandfather had really aggressive thyroid cancer. Died like 6 weeks after they found it.

Me: Yeah, so that's one of the reasons the drug company recommends you don't take it. We would be putting you at risk of thyroid cancer.

Patient: "I don't really care. I'm going to die from a heart attack if I don't get this weight down. Just give it to me."

You can see where maybe a doctor isn't prepared to just do what the patient wants, even if the patients feel their reasoning is good. I welcomed the discussion. I explained my reasoning for NOT honoring the request. And yet, "I don't really care about that, just do it cuz I want you to."

Thanks. I can see how that puts you in a weird spot.

My friend tells me he sometimes gets similar type things with guys wanting Testosterone Replacement when they don't really need it. That sometimes leads to word getting around that if you want it, you need to go see ...

I can see how that's a tough spot.
 
When we're talking western medicine vs "alternative" (functional) medicine. If you take the time to look at the more science based "alternative" medicine (it's not all reiki and crystals) you'll see finding and correcting the root cause priority one, more time talking to the patient, more testing upfront, a more patient empowering experience. I'm sure medically there can be a million holes punched into their methods and they'll do the same for western medicine, but nevertheless that appeals to people. They feel heard and also that their health is prioritized. I don't think people are wrong that like this, or expect it. If I'm reading the room people that prefer this style of medicine are the "do your own research" people doctors are complaining about. Ofcourse there's extremes, but I think these people are also in mind, perhaps I'm wrong.

Western medicine gives you 15 (plus or minus) minutes to say what's wrong, get a diagnosis, and the conveyor belt keeps turning (and realistically how much of that time is typing on a computer or doing non patient interface?). A bandaid approach with a pill to treat not fix is a pretty common experience. I've experienced it and sounds like plenty other's have here too. If i need medication then i need medication, but if there's another way then I'd like to explore that and probably have a conversation about it, maybe i read an article and we can discuss it's merit. I wouldn't expect to be biased against or rushed out the door because i wanted to talk about something i read. Educate me, I know the clocks ticking, but i took time out of my also busy day to be here to talk about my health. If a patient is belligerent then that's another story.

I've used both approaches for medical care and use a "regular" PCP as my go to, but i found some "alternative" based methods helpful and in many ways its a better patient experience.
 
Only thing I will add to this topic is from personal experience. My mother was a hospital administrator for over 40 years, she managed doctors. Her distain for insurance’s influence on the medical practice and the decisions doctors are often pushed into making is palpable. She’s also obviously worked with hundred of doctors in her time. Her opinion, if you’d ask her, they’ll people. Some were absolutely the best of the human race and others are awful human beings, some were money hungry and others were care driven . They’re Just like the rest of us, a mixed bag.

My personal experience, I’ve had my same primary care doctor since I was 19. He’s absolutely fantastic. About 15 years ago he got tired of being bullied by insurance companies and forced to see twice the appointments a day just to earn a living. He stopped taking insurance completely, but he’s able now to give the type of care he wants to. He lost about half his clients but when you go see him now, he sits down spends all the time that is needed with you to discuss whatever it is you wanna talk about. there is zero rush and he’ll answer any questions you have about whatever research you’ve done. I’ve never for one second in my 30 years of seeing him questioned he isn’t doing everything he can to help me with whatever I’m dealing with (and I’ve had/have some crazy ****). I personally couldn’t ask for better healthcare.
Glad you have a great experience. My main doctor does not take insurance either and it's more expensive but I love it. She answers questions and usually explains things before I even ask questions. She can prescribe prescriptions, if necessary, but prefers to treat with supplements. She sells some of them herself but has actually told me before where I could order them with a cheaper price. I have no reason to think she's a money grab at all and more importantly, she actually fixes problems and doesn't just treat symptoms.

I do have a PCP that takes my insurance where I can get the yearly physical or referrals to specialists (hello insurance/doctor BS!!). The last physical I had went well with no health issues. I described a couple of things that I've experienced (slight shoulder pain, for example) but wasn't concerned about yet and left there with about 5 prescriptions for things like muscle relaxers and anti-inflammatory drugs. It was weird and honestly kind of gross. They just want to rotate people in and out because that's more profitable and I'm sure the drug reps give them kickbacks to prescribe their drugs.

I asked above and no one answered, of course. Why would any drug company need to advertise prescription drugs on TV? They are basically telling us to go to their doctor and tell the doctor what we want. It's not like I can go get my choice of heart medicine, cholesterol medicine or blood pressure medicine at the local CVS without going through a doctor. Who are they targeting with their advertising?
Most of the commercials end by saying "Talk to your doctor to see if Drug XYZ is right for you!"

They quite literally want you to see the commercial and go talk to your doctor about it. Of course you can't write for your own meds. But you can certainly ask your doctor about them.

I don't think any doctor minds the "Hey, I saw the new Jardiance commercial would that be good for me?"

I get frustrated by the "My A1C is 12. My friend is on Jardiance so I want that, and that's all I'm going to take." If one is open to hearing my reasoning: Jardiance isn't going to provide the glycemic control needed to bring you from a 12 to <7.
Why would any patient needs to ask about a particular drug if the doctor is the expert and patient only "did his own research"? It's predatory and gro$$.

I disagree, with this, at least as a blanket statement.

For one thing, patients with serious healthcare issues often see multiple doctors, e.g., a PCP and one or more specialists. In my experience, it is not always true that a given specialist understands everything about the patient's complete healthcare situation, where there are aspects outside that specialist's area of expertise. That can be a situation where a patient doing research can be beneficial to all parties.

Another consideration is that a disabled patient who doesn't work can actually put more hours into staying abreast of latest research than a doctor who is working 50+ hours per week in their practice seeing patients. I'm not saying the patients know more, just that they might learn about something the doctor hasn't yet. Sometimes it is possible to bring articles and questions that lead to the doctor looking into something and deciding it does actually make sense to try.

I'm not talking about some of the foolish examples in this thread, like my friend is on medication X, so I want it. I'm talking about a patient who does real research, investing a lot of time and effort. I'm not talking about "Ask Jeeves" or TV commercials here. I'm talking medical studies, medical journals, etc. I'm also talking about patients who bring things for consideration and ask questions, not talking about making demands.

All of this has applied to my wife's healthcare situation. She has been disabled since 1998 and is a very complex, extreme outlier in many respects. Our research over the years has helped her and her doctors. As I posted earlier, they have generally been receptive to it and appreciative. And we greatly appreciated that they took that approach.
 
When we're talking western medicine vs "alternative" (functional) medicine. If you take the time to look at the more science based "alternative" medicine (it's not all reiki and crystals) you'll see finding and correcting the root cause priority one, more time talking to the patient, more testing upfront, a more patient empowering experience. I'm sure medically there can be a million holes punched into their methods and they'll do the same for western medicine, but nevertheless that appeals to people. They feel heard and also that their health is prioritized. I don't think people are wrong that like this, or expect it. If I'm reading the room people that prefer this style of medicine are the "do your own research" people doctors are complaining about. Ofcourse there's extremes, but I think these people are also in mind, perhaps I'm wrong.

Western medicine gives you 15 (plus or minus) minutes to say what's wrong, get a diagnosis, and the conveyor belt keeps turning (and realistically how much of that time is typing on a computer or doing non patient interface?). A bandaid approach with a pill to treat not fix is a pretty common experience. I've experienced it and sounds like plenty other's have here too. If i need medication then i need medication, but if there's another way then I'd like to explore that and probably have a conversation about it, maybe i read an article and we can discuss it's merit. I wouldn't expect to be biased against or rushed out the door because i wanted to talk about something i read. Educate me, I know the clocks ticking, but i took time out of my also busy day to be here to talk about my health. If a patient is belligerent then that's another story.

I've used both approaches for medical care and use a "regular" PCP as my go to, but i found some "alternative" based methods helpful and in many ways its a better patient experience.
Respectfully:

I’m firmly of the belief all doctors attempt to find and address the “root cause.” I’ve seen a lot of groups try to differentiate themselves over the years by “looking at the whole patient” and “finding the root cause.”

I assure you. MD’s and DO’s are fully capable or AND DO look at the whole picture/find the root cause.
 
When we're talking western medicine vs "alternative" (functional) medicine. If you take the time to look at the more science based "alternative" medicine (it's not all reiki and crystals) you'll see finding and correcting the root cause priority one, more time talking to the patient, more testing upfront, a more patient empowering experience. I'm sure medically there can be a million holes punched into their methods and they'll do the same for western medicine, but nevertheless that appeals to people. They feel heard and also that their health is prioritized. I don't think people are wrong that like this, or expect it. If I'm reading the room people that prefer this style of medicine are the "do your own research" people doctors are complaining about. Ofcourse there's extremes, but I think these people are also in mind, perhaps I'm wrong.

Western medicine gives you 15 (plus or minus) minutes to say what's wrong, get a diagnosis, and the conveyor belt keeps turning (and realistically how much of that time is typing on a computer or doing non patient interface?). A bandaid approach with a pill to treat not fix is a pretty common experience. I've experienced it and sounds like plenty other's have here too. If i need medication then i need medication, but if there's another way then I'd like to explore that and probably have a conversation about it, maybe i read an article and we can discuss it's merit. I wouldn't expect to be biased against or rushed out the door because i wanted to talk about something i read. Educate me, I know the clocks ticking, but i took time out of my also busy day to be here to talk about my health. If a patient is belligerent then that's another story.

I've used both approaches for medical care and use a "regular" PCP as my go to, but i found some "alternative" based methods helpful and in many ways its a better patient experience.
Respectfully:

I’m firmly of the belief all doctors attempt to find and address the “root cause.” I’ve seen a lot of groups try to differentiate themselves over the years by “looking at the whole patient” and “finding the root cause.”

I assure you. MD’s and DO’s are fully capable or AND DO look at the whole picture/find the root cause.
I have no doubt they are capable. I believe most want to find the root cause. I'm not against family medicine doctors at all, no disrespect meant, but the model seems broken and I think a functional approach for some patients might work better. Like i mentioned above I've tired the functional approach and ultimately prefer my current "regular" PCP, but i see the appeal for people looking for more input.
 
There are a lot of great doctors like iam90s, but let's be real again, seems like everyone is on some drug or another for something meanwhile there are people all over the world without access to western medicine that regularly live to their 100s.


Acting like we're infallible let alone have it all figured out is crazy talk.

A link to whoever claimed this would be appreciated.
 
There are a lot of great doctors like iam90s, but let's be real again, seems like everyone is on some drug or another for something meanwhile there are people all over the world without access to western medicine that regularly live to their 100s.


Acting like we're infallible let alone have it all figured out is crazy talk.

A link to whoever claimed this would be appreciated.
Narrator: No one did.
 
There are a lot of great doctors like iam90s, but let's be real again, seems like everyone is on some drug or another for something meanwhile there are people all over the world without access to western medicine that regularly live to their 100s.


Acting like we're infallible let alone have it all figured out is crazy talk.

A link to whoever claimed this would be appreciated.
Good luck with that
 
There are a lot of great doctors like iam90s, but let's be real again, seems like everyone is on some drug or another for something meanwhile there are people all over the world without access to western medicine that regularly live to their 100s.


Acting like we're infallible let alone have it all figured out is crazy talk.

A link to whoever claimed this would be appreciated.
You will just nitpick specific words I'm sure but just read page one and you can see plenty of comments insinuating it.

"Admittedly, I usually cringe when people address their medical care in this manner. "Doing my own research" is on the short list of trigger phrases which bias me against a patient, along with "I know my own body" and "everybody's different"
 
There are a lot of great doctors like iam90s, but let's be real again, seems like everyone is on some drug or another for something meanwhile there are people all over the world without access to western medicine that regularly live to their 100s.


Acting like we're infallible let alone have it all figured out is crazy talk.

A link to whoever claimed this would be appreciated.
You will just nitpick specific words I'm sure but just read page one and you can see plenty of comments insinuating it.

"Admittedly, I usually cringe when people address their medical care in this manner. "Doing my own research" is on the short list of trigger phrases which bias me against a patient, along with "I know my own body" and "everybody's different"
That implies infallibility?

To me, it implies fallibility because he recognizes his bias.

As does this:

I realize that's not ideal, and the link offers advice to communicate more effectively:
 
Also, it’s completely appropriate to ask questions, and seek multiple sources regarding the answers to complex medical quandaries. The problem is, more often than not, self “research” yields incomplete, erroneous conclusions, and patients seem less willing to defer to expertise in grey areas.

To be clear, I’m not expecting blind faith in experts, in any field.

But in medicine, it seems some “questions” aren’t really looking for answers at all; rather, they’re veiled demands for internet-inspired testing/treatment. Or worse, part of a quasi-political agenda.

A big part of this is uncertainty in the process. There are large swaths of medicine which lack evidence-based guidance. Clinicians must elaborate these limits, and prescribe without paternalism.

Shared decision making is important here, but at some point, expertise needs to be trusted imo.
 
Only thing I will add to this topic is from personal experience. My mother was a hospital administrator for over 40 years, she managed doctors. Her distain for insurance’s influence on the medical practice and the decisions doctors are often pushed into making is palpable. She’s also obviously worked with hundred of doctors in her time. Her opinion, if you’d ask her, they’ll people. Some were absolutely the best of the human race and others are awful human beings, some were money hungry and others were care driven . They’re Just like the rest of us, a mixed bag.

My personal experience, I’ve had my same primary care doctor since I was 19. He’s absolutely fantastic. About 15 years ago he got tired of being bullied by insurance companies and forced to see twice the appointments a day just to earn a living. He stopped taking insurance completely, but he’s able now to give the type of care he wants to. He lost about half his clients but when you go see him now, he sits down spends all the time that is needed with you to discuss whatever it is you wanna talk about. there is zero rush and he’ll answer any questions you have about whatever research you’ve done. I’ve never for one second in my 30 years of seeing him questioned he isn’t doing everything he can to help me with whatever I’m dealing with (and I’ve had/have some crazy ****). I personally couldn’t ask for better healthcare.
Glad you have a great experience. My main doctor does not take insurance either and it's more expensive but I love it. She answers questions and usually explains things before I even ask questions. She can prescribe prescriptions, if necessary, but prefers to treat with supplements. She sells some of them herself but has actually told me before where I could order them with a cheaper price. I have no reason to think she's a money grab at all and more importantly, she actually fixes problems and doesn't just treat symptoms.

I do have a PCP that takes my insurance where I can get the yearly physical or referrals to specialists (hello insurance/doctor BS!!). The last physical I had went well with no health issues. I described a couple of things that I've experienced (slight shoulder pain, for example) but wasn't concerned about yet and left there with about 5 prescriptions for things like muscle relaxers and anti-inflammatory drugs. It was weird and honestly kind of gross. They just want to rotate people in and out because that's more profitable and I'm sure the drug reps give them kickbacks to prescribe their drugs.

I asked above and no one answered, of course. Why would any drug company need to advertise prescription drugs on TV? They are basically telling us to go to their doctor and tell the doctor what we want. It's not like I can go get my choice of heart medicine, cholesterol medicine or blood pressure medicine at the local CVS without going through a doctor. Who are they targeting with their advertising?
Most of the commercials end by saying "Talk to your doctor to see if Drug XYZ is right for you!"

They quite literally want you to see the commercial and go talk to your doctor about it. Of course you can't write for your own meds. But you can certainly ask your doctor about them.

I don't think any doctor minds the "Hey, I saw the new Jardiance commercial would that be good for me?"

I get frustrated by the "My A1C is 12. My friend is on Jardiance so I want that, and that's all I'm going to take." If one is open to hearing my reasoning: Jardiance isn't going to provide the glycemic control needed to bring you from a 12 to <7.
Why would any patient needs to ask about a particular drug if the doctor is the expert and patient only "did his own research"? It's predatory and gro$$.

I've asked my doctor about specific medicines but it's not from a commercial. I have an elevated liver protein that is a risk factor for heart disease and in doing "my own research" I found out that there are some medications for it currently in trials with promising results so far. I asked my doctor about it. He confirmed what I found and said he noted in in my chart and would keep me updated. There is no other medication for this specific problem, so it piqued my interest for sure.

I think my only problem with "Doing your own research" is how it applies to people researching vaccines and somehow concluding they are bad. Then we get resurgences of previously controlled diseases. That's when someone doing their own research negatively affects the rest of society.
 
I've asked my doctor about specific medicines but it's not from a commercial. I have an elevated liver protein that is a risk factor for heart disease and in doing "my own research" I found out that there are some medications for it currently in trials with promising results so far. I asked my doctor about it. He confirmed what I found and said he noted in in my chart and would keep me updated. There is no other medication for this specific problem, so it piqued my interest for sure.

I think my only problem with "Doing your own research" is how it applies to people researching vaccines and somehow concluding they are bad. Then we get resurgences of previously controlled diseases. That's when someone doing their own research negatively affects the rest of society.
My sister-in-law was an early adapter in this instance. Frustrating for my brother and niece and nephews, almost led to a divorce.
 
Only thing I will add to this topic is from personal experience. My mother was a hospital administrator for over 40 years, she managed doctors. Her distain for insurance’s influence on the medical practice and the decisions doctors are often pushed into making is palpable. She’s also obviously worked with hundred of doctors in her time. Her opinion, if you’d ask her, they’ll people. Some were absolutely the best of the human race and others are awful human beings, some were money hungry and others were care driven . They’re Just like the rest of us, a mixed bag.

My personal experience, I’ve had my same primary care doctor since I was 19. He’s absolutely fantastic. About 15 years ago he got tired of being bullied by insurance companies and forced to see twice the appointments a day just to earn a living. He stopped taking insurance completely, but he’s able now to give the type of care he wants to. He lost about half his clients but when you go see him now, he sits down spends all the time that is needed with you to discuss whatever it is you wanna talk about. there is zero rush and he’ll answer any questions you have about whatever research you’ve done. I’ve never for one second in my 30 years of seeing him questioned he isn’t doing everything he can to help me with whatever I’m dealing with (and I’ve had/have some crazy ****). I personally couldn’t ask for better healthcare.
Glad you have a great experience. My main doctor does not take insurance either and it's more expensive but I love it. She answers questions and usually explains things before I even ask questions. She can prescribe prescriptions, if necessary, but prefers to treat with supplements. She sells some of them herself but has actually told me before where I could order them with a cheaper price. I have no reason to think she's a money grab at all and more importantly, she actually fixes problems and doesn't just treat symptoms.

I do have a PCP that takes my insurance where I can get the yearly physical or referrals to specialists (hello insurance/doctor BS!!). The last physical I had went well with no health issues. I described a couple of things that I've experienced (slight shoulder pain, for example) but wasn't concerned about yet and left there with about 5 prescriptions for things like muscle relaxers and anti-inflammatory drugs. It was weird and honestly kind of gross. They just want to rotate people in and out because that's more profitable and I'm sure the drug reps give them kickbacks to prescribe their drugs.

I asked above and no one answered, of course. Why would any drug company need to advertise prescription drugs on TV? They are basically telling us to go to their doctor and tell the doctor what we want. It's not like I can go get my choice of heart medicine, cholesterol medicine or blood pressure medicine at the local CVS without going through a doctor. Who are they targeting with their advertising?
Most of the commercials end by saying "Talk to your doctor to see if Drug XYZ is right for you!"

They quite literally want you to see the commercial and go talk to your doctor about it. Of course you can't write for your own meds. But you can certainly ask your doctor about them.

I don't think any doctor minds the "Hey, I saw the new Jardiance commercial would that be good for me?"

I get frustrated by the "My A1C is 12. My friend is on Jardiance so I want that, and that's all I'm going to take." If one is open to hearing my reasoning: Jardiance isn't going to provide the glycemic control needed to bring you from a 12 to <7.
Why would any patient needs to ask about a particular drug if the doctor is the expert and patient only "did his own research"? It's predatory and gro$$.

I've asked my doctor about specific medicines but it's not from a commercial. I have an elevated liver protein that is a risk factor for heart disease and in doing "my own research" I found out that there are some medications for it currently in trials with promising results so far. I asked my doctor about it. He confirmed what I found and said he noted in in my chart and would keep me updated. There is no other medication for this specific problem, so it piqued my interest for sure.

I think my only problem with "Doing your own research" is how it applies to people researching vaccines and somehow concluding they are bad. Then we get resurgences of previously controlled diseases. That's when someone doing their own research negatively affects the rest of society.
Everyone has their own limits for what doing their own research means. I’m personally fine with that. I think it’s over the line when telling someone else that, including vaccines. I also think doctors should be way better at explaining things to patients but so many of them just rotate through patients to make more money.
 
Everyone has their own limits for what doing their own research means. I’m personally fine with that. I think it’s over the line when telling someone else that, including vaccines. I also think doctors should be way better at explaining things to patients but so many of them just rotate through patients to make more money.
I never see any justification for this general insult.

Do you have experience with doctors doing this? How many doctors? Out of how many doctors in their county or state?
And exactly how do they do it?
Is there some sort of list of all the doctors in, say, a county that just push patients through on a conveyor belt?
We all know there are bad doctors, and we can all describe our bad experiences with them, but to extend their bad qualities to a large part of the entire group of doctors requires a lot more evidence than that.
 
Everyone has their own limits for what doing their own research means. I’m personally fine with that. I think it’s over the line when telling someone else that, including vaccines. I also think doctors should be way better at explaining things to patients but so many of them just rotate through patients to make more money.
I never see any justification for this general insult.

Do you have experience with doctors doing this? How many doctors? Out of how many doctors in their county or state?
And exactly how do they do it?
Is there some sort of list of all the doctors in, say, a county that just push patients through on a conveyor belt?
We all know there are bad doctors, and we can all describe our bad experiences with them, but to extend their bad qualities to a large part of the entire group of doctors requires a lot more evidence than that.
Been told directly by a doctor they were told to do this. Most PCPs bring you in, offer you whatever prescription you want and get you out the door. This has been my experience with a half dozen in various places I’ve lived. I’m sure it’s the insurance companies. Doctors that don’t take insurance are way more thorough with me. And never have attitudes with being questioned.
 
I am surprised at the number of FBGs that think, or at least have implied in this thread, that primary care physicians are greedy, patient-assembly-line-churning, omniscient, deaf, uncaring, quacks.

Very disheartening.
I've tried very hard to keep my comments my personal experience and not generalize. I know it's not fair to say all doctors, all patients, ect. I don't know what it's like to be a PCP, but i do know what it's like to be a frustrated patient, the son of a parent with a missed cancer diagnosis until it was to late, someone unhappy with a model built on treatment and not prevention (my experience, maybe that's not common elsewhere), feeling rushed out the door.

I was also surprised to see how many expressed similar experiences. It shouldn't be a blanket statement about all doctors, but bad experiences don't seem as uncommon as i thought they would be.

Mis/disinformation is certainly a factor, but so can misdiagnosis, dismissive attitudes, feeling like you're part of a turn and burn patient model (maybe that's not the reality everywhere, but it's the sense i get locally).

I don't live in a Healthcare mecca, so maybe that's why it's been hard to find the competent doctors described by some here. If you have a doctor like that, or you are one then you should know you're lucky, not everyone finds that so easily. I have found a great doctor that i really gel with, but it was a lot harder than i would have liked.
 
I am surprised at the number of FBGs that think, or at least have implied in this thread, that primary care physicians are greedy, patient-assembly-line-churning, omniscient, deaf, uncaring, quacks.

Very disheartening.

I’m not surprised at all. I’m also not surprised at the indignation and pearl clutching because those options differ.
 
I guess I've been lucky with PCPs - and I've had a lot of them due to relocations and life changes - in that they would always stay after an examination if I had questions or comments. Don't get me wrong - they weren't going to go through last night's MLB box scores or discuss favorite albums with me - but I never felt like they were trying to rush me out of the room.

I did have one oncologist I separated from because I felt he was turnstiling me, but that's my perception and I already had decided to get other opinions.
 
I am surprised at the number of FBGs that think, or at least have implied in this thread, that primary care physicians are greedy, patient-assembly-line-churning, omniscient, deaf, uncaring, quacks.

Very disheartening.
I've tried very hard to keep my comments my personal experience and not generalize. I know it's not fair to say all doctors, all patients, ect. I don't know what it's like to be a PCP, but i do know what it's like to be a frustrated patient, the son of a parent with a missed cancer diagnosis until it was to late, someone unhappy with a model built on treatment and not prevention (my experience, maybe that's not common elsewhere), feeling rushed out the door.

I was also surprised to see how many expressed similar experiences. It shouldn't be a blanket statement about all doctors, but bad experiences don't seem as uncommon as i thought they would be.

Mis/disinformation is certainly a factor, but so can misdiagnosis, dismissive attitudes, feeling like you're part of a turn and burn patient model (maybe that's not the reality everywhere, but it's the sense i get locally).

I don't live in a Healthcare mecca, so maybe that's why it's been hard to find the competent doctors described by some here. If you have a doctor like that, or you are one then you should know you're lucky, not everyone finds that so easily. I have found a great doctor that i really gel with, but it was a lot harder than i would have liked.
I've had my share of PCP churn for a variety of reasons. Loved a couple of them and didn't care for a few. My most recent turnover was due to a family practice selling out to a regional network. I moved to a smaller town about 3.5 years ago and it took almost 6 months to establish new patient care. I liked the practice and the community raved about the team there.

Little over a year ago they sold to First Health which has 163 locations in North Carolina (not all PCPs). The established doctors left and were replaced with couple younger FNPs (early 30s?). The community vibe doesn't appear positive right off the bat as most people feel the quality of care has become less experienced and less personable.

As family practices dwindle and are bought out by networks, it's entirely understandable for patients to view our medical system as assembly line.
 
I am surprised at the number of FBGs that think, or at least have implied in this thread, that primary care physicians are greedy, patient-assembly-line-churning, omniscient, deaf, uncaring, quacks.

Very disheartening.
I've tried very hard to keep my comments my personal experience and not generalize. I know it's not fair to say all doctors, all patients, ect. I don't know what it's like to be a PCP, but i do know what it's like to be a frustrated patient, the son of a parent with a missed cancer diagnosis until it was to late, someone unhappy with a model built on treatment and not prevention (my experience, maybe that's not common elsewhere), feeling rushed out the door.

I was also surprised to see how many expressed similar experiences. It shouldn't be a blanket statement about all doctors, but bad experiences don't seem as uncommon as i thought they would be.

Mis/disinformation is certainly a factor, but so can misdiagnosis, dismissive attitudes, feeling like you're part of a turn and burn patient model (maybe that's not the reality everywhere, but it's the sense i get locally).

I don't live in a Healthcare mecca, so maybe that's why it's been hard to find the competent doctors described by some here. If you have a doctor like that, or you are one then you should know you're lucky, not everyone finds that so easily. I have found a great doctor that i really gel with, but it was a lot harder than i would have liked.
I've had my share of PCP churn for a variety of reasons. Loved a couple of them and didn't care for a few. My most recent turnover was due to a family practice selling out to a regional network. I moved to a smaller town about 3.5 years ago and it took almost 6 months to establish new patient care. I liked the practice and the community raved about the team there.

Little over a year ago they sold to First Health which has 163 locations in North Carolina (not all PCPs). The established doctors left and were replaced with couple younger FNPs (early 30s?). The community vibe doesn't appear positive right off the bat as most people feel the quality of care has become less experienced and less personable.

As family practices dwindle and are bought out by networks, it's entirely understandable for patients to view our medical system as assembly line.
Very similar situation to what's happened in my small town with Duke Lifepoint taking over.
 
I am surprised at the number of FBGs that think, or at least have implied in this thread, that primary care physicians are greedy, patient-assembly-line-churning, omniscient, deaf, uncaring, quacks.

Very disheartening.
I've tried very hard to keep my comments my personal experience and not generalize. I know it's not fair to say all doctors, all patients, ect. I don't know what it's like to be a PCP, but i do know what it's like to be a frustrated patient, the son of a parent with a missed cancer diagnosis until it was to late, someone unhappy with a model built on treatment and not prevention (my experience, maybe that's not common elsewhere), feeling rushed out the door.

I was also surprised to see how many expressed similar experiences. It shouldn't be a blanket statement about all doctors, but bad experiences don't seem as uncommon as i thought they would be.

Mis/disinformation is certainly a factor, but so can misdiagnosis, dismissive attitudes, feeling like you're part of a turn and burn patient model (maybe that's not the reality everywhere, but it's the sense i get locally).

I don't live in a Healthcare mecca, so maybe that's why it's been hard to find the competent doctors described by some here. If you have a doctor like that, or you are one then you should know you're lucky, not everyone finds that so easily. I have found a great doctor that i really gel with, but it was a lot harder than i would have liked.
I've had my share of PCP churn for a variety of reasons. Loved a couple of them and didn't care for a few. My most recent turnover was due to a family practice selling out to a regional network. I moved to a smaller town about 3.5 years ago and it took almost 6 months to establish new patient care. I liked the practice and the community raved about the team there.

Little over a year ago they sold to First Health which has 163 locations in North Carolina (not all PCPs). The established doctors left and were replaced with couple younger FNPs (early 30s?). The community vibe doesn't appear positive right off the bat as most people feel the quality of care has become less experienced and less personable.

As family practices dwindle and are bought out by networks, it's entirely understandable for patients to view our medical system as assembly line.
This probably strays too political, but there are a multitude of reasons for this, almost none of which are doctor's fault.

Consolidation in health care is only going to continue - especially in rural areas - as a lot of their funding gets cut.

That consolidation is bad for everyone.
 
I am surprised at the number of FBGs that think, or at least have implied in this thread, that primary care physicians are greedy, patient-assembly-line-churning, omniscient, deaf, uncaring, quacks.

Very disheartening.
I've tried very hard to keep my comments my personal experience and not generalize. I know it's not fair to say all doctors, all patients, ect. I don't know what it's like to be a PCP, but i do know what it's like to be a frustrated patient, the son of a parent with a missed cancer diagnosis until it was to late, someone unhappy with a model built on treatment and not prevention (my experience, maybe that's not common elsewhere), feeling rushed out the door.

I was also surprised to see how many expressed similar experiences. It shouldn't be a blanket statement about all doctors, but bad experiences don't seem as uncommon as i thought they would be.

Mis/disinformation is certainly a factor, but so can misdiagnosis, dismissive attitudes, feeling like you're part of a turn and burn patient model (maybe that's not the reality everywhere, but it's the sense i get locally).

I don't live in a Healthcare mecca, so maybe that's why it's been hard to find the competent doctors described by some here. If you have a doctor like that, or you are one then you should know you're lucky, not everyone finds that so easily. I have found a great doctor that i really gel with, but it was a lot harder than i would have liked.
I've had my share of PCP churn for a variety of reasons. Loved a couple of them and didn't care for a few. My most recent turnover was due to a family practice selling out to a regional network. I moved to a smaller town about 3.5 years ago and it took almost 6 months to establish new patient care. I liked the practice and the community raved about the team there.

Little over a year ago they sold to First Health which has 163 locations in North Carolina (not all PCPs). The established doctors left and were replaced with couple younger FNPs (early 30s?). The community vibe doesn't appear positive right off the bat as most people feel the quality of care has become less experienced and less personable.

As family practices dwindle and are bought out by networks, it's entirely understandable for patients to view our medical system as assembly line.
This probably strays too political, but there are a multitude of reasons for this, almost none of which are doctor's fault.

Consolidation in health care is only going to continue - especially in rural areas - as a lot of their funding gets cut.

That consolidation is bad for everyone.
Ofcourse, but this is a big part of where the distrust comes from. I know we shouldn't shoot the messenger (in this case doctors), but when my care is lacking that's because it likely is and not my imagination.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top