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Dynasty - 2011 Rookie Top 10 (non-ppr) (1 Viewer)

'ChuckLiddell said:
'EBF said:
My top four hasn't really changed. I'd still rank them Ingram, Green, Jones, and Baldwin. I might takes Jones ahead of Green now though. Beyond that, I would move RWilliams and Leshoure down a little bit. I was never super high on either of them, and their injuries have set them back a while. The early risers for me are Ridley, Quizz, Mallett, Moore, and maybe Little and Hunter, but I wouldn't do something crazy and take them top 4 or anything. I think it's nice when a player gets good buzz out of the gate, but it doesn't necessarily mean much in the grand scheme of things.
As has been stated several time, it really gets sketchy after 3. I respect your (EBF) posts above most on these boards, so I will rethink my position, but I took Baldwin off my draft list completely. Cant beat the jam, and off the charts knucklehead factor. He went late 2nd round in my rookie draft yesterday. I have Little at 4. Mad talent, and a clear path to the field. After that I like Moore, Carter, Cobb, Vereen, Ridley, Hunter. Then Kendricks, D.Thomas, the QBs, Julius Thomas.
Baldwin has been underrated since April. That hasn't changed now that people are panicking about some vague rumors related to his character. I say it every year and I'll say it again, you can't make concrete judgments about every player's career based on his rookie training camp (or even his first 2-3 SEASONS). There have been countless examples of this throughout the past several years and yet every season you see the same process unfold where highly-rated prospects who stumble out of the gates are cast aside in favor of whichever flavor-of-the-week sleeper happens to be generating buzz. Let me just run down a list of some of the players who were written off as busts or ignored after their first season or two:Plaxico BurressRoddy WhiteAaron RodgersCedric BensonRashard MendenhallDarren McFaddenLarry JohnsonThe list goes on and on. People have short memories in FF and so they've probably already forgotten this, but there was a time when Roddy White was considered a draft bust with terrible hands. People thought Rodgers would get beaten out by Ingle Martin. They said Larry Johnson and Rashard Mendenhall were garbage. Considering that dynasty leagues are designed to play out indefinitely, it's amazing how fickle so many of the participants are. Baldwin is just another in a long line of players who were unjustly discarded based on flimsy rumors and a few weeks of mild disappointment. It doesn't help his case in these neck of the woods that some of the local trend setters are down on him (Bloom doesn't like him, and I'm guessing it's the same for Waldman). None of that matters to me. Here's what does:- 6'4"- 223 pounds- 4.49 40- 42" vert- 10'11" broad jump- productive in college- first round pick- passes the eyeball testPeople say "bust" because he got in one fight that he may or may not have even initiated. :lol:I say...Yes, please. I already had him on several teams. I just got him in a 1.5 TE PPR league for Aaron Hernandez. Judging by how far he fell in some of my rookie drafts and how little respect people around here give him, I might have to go out and try to get him in some additional leagues. The guy isn't a sure thing (few prospects are), but he's criminally underrated and undervalued. He was my solid 1.04 rookie pick in April.He's my solid 1.04 rookie pick in August.
 
He's terrible value at 1.04. Especially when you can trade down into the 2nd to get him now....

And that Hernandez deal is god awful for 1.5 PPR TE league.

 
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'NDyse10 said:
I also find myself at the 4th pick. Daniel Thomas has looked so awful this preseason its hard not to overlook that. I try my best to put no stock into preseason, but man he has looked bad.Anybody else moving from Thomas as the consensus 4 to Little?Little has no competition in front of him and I happen to think McCoy is better than most people say.
Is Thomas the consensus #4? I thought Little has been the consensus #4 for a while now. Of course, I rarely leave the FBGs echo chamber, so it's possible on remote parts of the internet that they still advocate taking Thomas at the 4-spot.The FBGs staff consensus has Little very firmly ensconced at #4. Of the 8 individual rankers, only Haseley has Thomas in the top 4.
Well, I suppose here in FBG Little is, but from other places I have looked Thomas seems to be in the mix for the 4 more than Little. I was always planning on taking Thomas until he looked terrible in the preseason.FWIW, ended up taking Bowe at my 1.4 (rookie and veteran combined draft) and traded back into the 1st round and took Little at 1.10. Was very happy with this.
 
He's terrible value at 1.04. Especially when you can trade down into the 2nd to get him now....And that Hernandez deal is god awful for 1.5 PPR TE league.
It's funny that Baldwin was one of only four WR/RB picked in the first round this year, but all the experts on internet message boards think he's somehow a reach at 1.04. The odds speak for themselves. First round NFL draft picks are more likely to succeed than those drafted later. I'd be happy to gamble on Baldwin over the other mediocrities available once Green/Ingram/Jones are gone. As for Hernandez vs. Baldwin, you never quite know how it's going to break with young players, but I have Baldwin rated a lot higher than where I had Hernandez. I got him with a mid-late second round pick in a 14 team league, so I was happy to move him for a first round WR with #1 potential. I think Hernandez is a quality player, but his path to FF success is murky considering that he's a situational pass catcher with ho-hum speed who will have to battle with Gronk for PT and targets.
 
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He's terrible value at 1.04. Especially when you can trade down into the 2nd to get him now....And that Hernandez deal is god awful for 1.5 PPR TE league.
It's funny that Baldwin was one of only four WR/RB picked in the first round this year, but all the experts on internet message boards think he's somehow a reach at 1.04. The odds speak for themselves. First round NFL draft picks are more likely to succeed than those drafted later. I'd be happy to gamble on Baldwin over the other mediocrities available once Green/Ingram/Jones are gone. As for Hernandez vs. Baldwin, you never quite know how it's going to break with young players, but I have Baldwin rated a lot higher than where I had Hernandez. I got him with a mid-late second round pick in a 14 team league, so I was happy to move him for a first round WR with #1 potential. I think Hernandez is a quality player, but his path to FF success is murky considering that he's a situational pass catcher with ho-hum speed who will have to battle with Gronk for PT and targets.
Baldwin: During the draft there are 'rumors' of character issues (getting warm).Multiple sources report Baldwin can't beat the jam and it's reported he's unwilling to learn (getting hot).Minor injury week 2 of training camp, misses multiple days (sizzling).Baldwin picks a fight with Thomas Jones (smoking now).Bottom line: Where there's smoke, there's fire. Rookies are too much risk as it is, and this guy keeps sending up red flags. Easy decision IMO.
 
Baldwin: During the draft there are 'rumors' of character issues (getting warm).Multiple sources report Baldwin can't beat the jam and it's reported he's unwilling to learn (getting hot).
The beating the jam stuff is meaningless in the second week of his professional career. Were you an expert at your job by the second week?Most NFL players weren't.
Minor injury week 2 of training camp, misses multiple days (sizzling).
This happens to countless players every year.
Baldwin picks a fight with Thomas Jones (smoking now).
I don't think anyone outside the locker room knows how the fight started, so it could be a mistake to assume that Baldwin initiated it.
Bottom line: Where there's smoke, there's fire. Rookies are too much risk as it is, and this guy keeps sending up red flags. Easy decision IMO.
The fact that all rookies are risky isn't a good excuse for passing on Baldwin in favor of other rookies (who would by your own argument also be risky). Baldwin has something that only AJ Green, Julio Jones, and Mark Ingram can boast among this year's rookie WR/RB: First round talent. I can't stress enough how important that is. There are definitely busts at all levels of the draft and Baldwin could very easily turn out to be a flop ala Rashaun Woods or Michael Jenkins, but all of the comments prematurely declaring him a bust are silly. It reminds me very much of things I used to read on here about Thomas Jones, Rashard Mendenhall, Larry Johnson, Cedric Benson, and Roddy White. No matter how many times a top talent who was written off prematurely has a breakout season, people still make the same mistake of discarding these types way too soon EVERY year. You can bank on it. I'd say the same thing whether the conversation involved Michael Crabtree, CJ Spiller, or Jon Baldwin. Dude hasn't played a down and he's already a bust. :lol:
 
So should I drop Ryan Williams. This sucks dude woulda been sick .
I wouldn't drop him yet.
Depends on how deep your roster is and what is available on FA wire. He wasn't exactly an elite pick, as a second rounder, so there is no guarantee he gets to go to the front of the depth chart in the future. I think I would hold him for a while though to see how Beanie does; Beanie has a chance to take the job over and if he does, then Williams will not be worth holding. If he doesn't, then Williams may have another shot although I would expect the team to go after a FA next off season. There are cases where first round picks miss their rookie year and come back to be very productive backs (Robert Smith; McFadden; all come to mind). But the list of backs taken later in the draft, who miss their entire rookie year and come back to become studs, is not very large. Maybe M. Bush, but he hasn't exactly proven that he can be a featured back yet. I am sure there are others but it is not common.
 
'az_prof said:
Depends on how deep your roster is and what is available on FA wire. He wasn't exactly an elite pick, as a second rounder, so there is no guarantee he gets to go to the front of the depth chart in the future. I think I would hold him for a while though to see how Beanie does; Beanie has a chance to take the job over and if he does, then Williams will not be worth holding. If he doesn't, then Williams may have another shot although I would expect the team to go after a FA next off season. There are cases where first round picks miss their rookie year and come back to be very productive backs (Robert Smith; McFadden; all come to mind). But the list of backs taken later in the draft, who miss their entire rookie year and come back to become studs, is not very large. Maybe M. Bush, but he hasn't exactly proven that he can be a featured back yet. I am sure there are others but it is not common.
A 2nd round pick isn't "elite" for RBs? Ryan Williams was drafted a whopping 10 picks after Mark Ingram, and yet as a result of that brobdingnagian 10-pick slide, Ingram is lumped in the "elite" tier all by himself and Williams is lumped in the "not elite" tier with guys like Taiwan Jones, Roy Helu, and Delone Carter? That seems ridiculously arbitrary to me.There's very little talent difference between the guys going in the latter half of the first round and the guys going in the second round. If the former category is considered "elite", then the latter must be as well. If the latter category is considered "not elite", then the former must be as well.
'spider321 said:
Please get back on topic guys.Who's your current top-10?
Wow, I never realized we were only allowed to list our top 10, not to spend any time whatsoever discussing why or how we developed those rankings.
 
There's very little talent difference between the guys going in the latter half of the first round and the guys going in the second round. If the former category is considered "elite", then the latter must be as well. If the latter category is considered "not elite", then the former must be as well.
Actually, I bet if you went back and looked at it, you'd find that there IS a pretty big difference in the success rates of RBs picked 20-32 and those picked in the first half of the second round. The late first round is something of a "hot spot" for the RB position because it's often the point in the draft where solid first round RBs who slide out of the top 15 become too much value to pass up. A LOT of RBs have gone in this range recently and many of them have done well. 1.30 Jahvid Best1.27 Donald Brown1.31 Beanie Wells1.22 Felix Jones1.23 Rashard Mendenhall1.24 Chris Johnson1.21 Laurence Maroney1.27 DeAngelo Williams1.30 Joseph Addai1.24 Steven Jackson1.26 Chris Perry1.30 Kevin Jones1.23 Willis McGahee1.27 Larry Johnson1.23 Deuce McAllister1.27 Michael BennettThat's 10/16 players who recorded at least one 1000+ yard rushing season, and that number could very well rise if Beanie, Felix, and/or Best pulls it off at some point. 8/16 of these players have already recorded at least two 1000+ yard rushing seasons. As for the early 2nd round picks during that same time span (2010-2001):2.04 Dexter McCluster2.13 Matt Forte2.13 LenDale White2.12 JJ Arrington2.09 Tatum Bell2.11 Julius Jones2.02 DeShaun Foster2.07 Anthony Thomas4 of these 8 backs have recorded at least one 1000+ yard rushing season, but only A-Train and Forte have eclipsed the mark twice (though Julius Jones came VERY close). Still...what stands out about this list compared with the first is the relative lack of true franchise caliber RBs. Forte is really the only guy on the list who might match the quality of the LJ/McAllister/Mendenhall/D-Will standard.So while this is a really small sample size, it seems to suggest that RBs selected in the late first are often premium talents who slip whereas early 2nd round RBs tend to be more stopgap/swing for the fences picks who struggle to sustain productivity. Having said that, there have been some real gems drafted in the later part of the second round (Portis, Rice, MJD, McCoy, T Henry). But even if you factor those guys into the hit rate, it's weighted down by names like Eric Shelton, Maurice Morris, Brian Leonard, Deshaun Foster, Kenny Irons, and Chris Henry.I still think that if you're looking for that perennial bell cow 250+ carry RB, the late first round is a MUCH better place to find one than the early-mid portion of the second round. Putting the data aside and just talking about my subjective analysis, I'd say Ingram is a much safer prospect than Williams with a much higher chance of becoming a multi-year productive pro.
 
*Post*...Putting the data aside and just talking about my subjective analysis, I'd say Ingram is a much safer prospect than Williams with a much higher chance of becoming a multi-year productive pro.
First off, I agree that Ingram is a much safer prospect than Williams, even before Williams got hurt. I think that based on the players themselves, not based on the fact that Ingram was drafted 10 picks earlier.Second off, the lists you provided are very interesting, not least for a point that I don't think you went into enough. You're right that there's a really strong success rate among late 1st round RBs, and that the success rate among early 2nd round RBs isn't nearly as strong. My first thought after reading that was about the late 2nd round RBs, and while you mentioned some names, I figured I'd pull up the complete list.2.19 Toby Gerhart2.26 Ben Tate2.27 Montario Hardesty2.21 LeSean McCoy2.24 Ray Rice2.17 Kenny Irons2.18 Chris Henry2.20 Brian Leonard2.31 Brandon Jackson2.28 Maurice Jones-Drew2.22 Eric Shelton2.23 Greg Jones2.19 Clinton Portis2.22 Maurice Morris2.24 Ladell Betts2.18 LaMont Jordan2.27 Travis HenryIf we exclude last year's draft, 10/15 of the late 1sts have a 1,000 yard season (8/15 have two or more), compared to 7/14 of the late 2nds (4/14 have two or more). The late 1st sample produced, by my count, 6 "franchise backs" (Mendy, Johnson, DeAngelo, Jackson, Johnson, McAllister). The late 2nd sample produced, by my count, 4 "franchise backs" (McCoy, Rice, Jones-Drew, Portis). There's definitely a drop in talent, but not a huge one. Either way, it's striking that the sample of late-2nd RBs is so much better than the sample of early-2nd RBs. It's possible this is just an issue with the sample size. It's also possible (perhaps even likely) that this is a reflection on the teams that are doing the drafting- teams picking late do a better job at identifying talent in the draft, and a better job of developing talent in the NFL.
 
My updated list:

1 Green

2 Ingram

3 Julio Jones

4 Little

5 Daniel Thomas

6 Kendricks

7 Hunter

8 Helu

9 Ryan Williams

10 Leshoure

11 Denarious Moore

12 Delone Carter

13 Murray

14 Taiwann Jones

15 Gabbert

16 B. Powell

17 Cam Newton

18 Ridley

19 Vereen

20 Cobb

21 Jaquizz Rodgers

22 Dalton

23 Ponder

24 Julius Thomas

25 Rudolph

26 J Harper

27 Baldwin

28 V Brown

29 T Young

30 J Harper

31 Jernigan

32 C Shorts

 
My updated list:1 Green2 Ingram3 Julio Jones4 Little 5 Daniel Thomas6 Kendricks7 Hunter8 Helu9 Ryan Williams10 Leshoure11 Denarious Moore12 Delone Carter13 Murray14 Taiwann Jones15 Gabbert16 B. Powell17 Cam Newton18 Ridley19 Vereen20 Cobb21 Jaquizz Rodgers22 Dalton23 Ponder24 Julius Thomas25 Rudolph26 J Harper27 Baldwin28 V Brown29 T Young30 J Harper31 Jernigan32 C Shorts
no clyde (edmund) gates?
 
as for Baldwin, I think work ethic when they enter the league is just as important as any other thing. If Baldwin doesn't want to work, he'll never amount to anything

 
as for Baldwin, I think work ethic when they enter the league is just as important as any other thing. If Baldwin doesn't want to work, he'll never amount to anything
Yea, but where is the documented evidence that he has a bad work ethic? We know that he got into a fight with his teammate. We don't know who started it or why.

We know that there have been some faint rumblings from anonymous "insiders" that he has a bad work ethic.

We know that he had a reputation for being "difficult" at Pitt.

And based on that flimsy evidence we can conclude that he's not a hard worker?

It might very well turn out to be the case that Baldwin is a headcase whose character issues will prevent him from becoming a productive pro, but at this point in time I think people are just jumping to conclusions based on their preconceived ideas of who the player is. It's sort of a "presumed guilty" situation where people glance over the evidence and assume the worst based on a player's reputation.

Here are some different perspectives:

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/08/05/3059947/baldwins-focus-is-on-getting-better.html

Baldwin’s focus is on getting better

By KENT BABB

The Kansas City Star

Related:

ST. JOSEPH | The pressure already was weighing on Jonathan Baldwin. He was feeling it.

Baldwin, the Chiefs’ first-round draft pick, a 6-foot-4, 230-pound wide receiver from the University of Pittsburgh, signed his contract eight days ago, joining his new teammates and facing the expectations that no rookie — especially an early draft pick — can avoid.

Earlier this week, Baldwin said he was ready for this challenge.

“Every day they pick out a few rookies who have to sing,” Baldwin said. “So I think today is my day.

“I’ve got a couple of hours to figure out what I’m going to sing.”

It was the first test for Baldwin, whose career will come with expectations and questions, particularly after he called out his former college quarterback and criticized his coaches. Baldwin said he was prepared for whatever lay ahead, whether that’s singing in a hazing ritual at a team meeting or playing his first NFL game as the Chiefs’ likely No. 2 receiver.

“Only thing I can do, only thing I can control now is how hard I work,” he said. “I really can’t say anything about what everybody else says. I’m just going to continue to do the things that I’ve been doing.”

Coach Todd Haley said his newest project — he was a receivers coach before becoming a coordinator and head coach, and he still takes an interest in wideouts — appears to have the tools necessary to be a standout NFL player. Baldwin is big and fast, and Haley said there’s more to Baldwin than the speed limit often associated with being a possession receiver.

“The indicators are good,” Haley said. “Speed is not an issue. I think it’s easy to just say he’s a big possession guy. Until we get going and pads are on and these guys get their legs under them, I don’t know that we’ll see really all that’s there.”

Haley said he caught a glimpse of Baldwin’s focus on Tuesday, the team’s day off. Haley was headed toward the Chiefs’ offices at the Griffon Indoor Sports Complex at Missouri Western, and there was Baldwin, hoofing back to the team’s dormitory, on the hottest day of the year.

When Baldwin could’ve stayed in the air conditioning, ignoring coaches’ suggestions that players take care of their bodies, he spent time proving that he not only can catch and run. He can follow his coaches’ instructions, too.

“Good signs that a guy is focused in the right place, and he wants to succeed,” Haley said. “I’m getting late-night texts from him, and those are all good signs.

“I felt good when I saw a guy not worrying about much else other than doing the things that we’re asking him to do.”

Baldwin spent Friday in the team’s conditioning area after appearing to suffer a leg injury a day earlier. Haley has said he plans to take a cautious approach with all injuries.

Baldwin caught 127 passes for 2,325 yards in three seasons at Pittsburgh. He raised concerns before the NFL combine, being quoted by a website that he thought his coaches were “purposely trying to disrupt my draft stock.”

He showed no such signs of outspokenness this week, when he was short and direct with his answers. He wouldn’t even reveal who his NFL idols are, saying he preferred to avoid answering that question.

Whatever baggage he might have picked up in Pittsburgh, Baldwin connected enough with the Chiefs that they were willing to draft him. Not only that, Baldwin has connected with Kansas City’s fans, too. His Twitter page has more than 8,000 followers, and he occasionally tweets about the Chiefs and his expectations.

He did share one goal:

“Win the Super Bowl,” he said. “Same goal as everybody else.”

Not long after that, Baldwin headed toward the locker room, where he said he would decide on a song to serenade his teammates with that afternoon.

“I’m going to get it going in the locker room in a little bit,” he said, turning the conversation briefly back to football. “I try to do everything. I don’t want to do just one thing. I just try to work hard at everything.

“You’ve got to do all the little things, extra, working extra, just doing all the things that you can to make yourself different.”
http://chiefsblog.kansascity.com/?q=node/1785
Chiefs said months ago that they 'vetted' Baldwin

The Chiefs were aware that wide receiver Jonathan Baldwin lacked a spotless image when they drafted him in the first round this past April.

Coach Todd Haley said on draft night, after Kansas City made Baldwin the No. 26 overall pick out of Pittsburgh, that the organization had vetted the youngster and felt comfortable that any baggage -- he was arrested in 2009 for allegedly groping a female student, although the chargers were later dropped, and he also reportedly called out his quarterback and coaches at Pitt before the NFL combine -- was behind him.

“We are very comfortable making him a Kansas City Chief,” Haley said after the draft's first round. “(Character) is something that’s always going to be important to us, and we obviously believe Jonathan Baldwin has Kansas City Chief character, or he wouldn’t be part of this team now.”

Baldwin reportedly was involved this past week in an altercation with teammate Thomas Jones and suffered an injury. The Chiefs haven't confirmed reports from various media outlets; 610 Sports Radio first reported the altercation.

In the months since the draft, the Chiefs have stood by their top pick, saying that Baldwin's indiscretions were in his past.

"You look at the full body of work,” Pioli said on draft night. “You have to rely on people and resources. We vetted this player and many other players that had situations in their past.

“You spend time with the player; you spend time with individuals you have relationships with, good relationships with, trusting relationships, and you talk to a lot of people. We talked to a lot of people on this, and we feel very confident.”
So who do you believe? Lots of players are good at saying the right things. I remember Charles Rogers waxing poetically about his newfound work ethic and motivation shortly before washing out the of the league.

Still, I usually trust the evaluations made by professional organizations who invest millions of dollars in a player than in the words of some anonymous poster on a message board or some beat writer on Twitter.

There's nothing here that's any worse than the stuff I've read about players like Brandon Marshall and Larry Johnson. Have we already forgotten this?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1887031

Vermeil to Johnson: 'Take the diapers off'

* Email

* Print

Associated Press

KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- Larry Johnson reacted sharply to **** Vermeil's comments that the seldom used Chiefs running back "take the diapers off" if he plays this week in place of injured Priest Holmes.

Johnson, a first-round draft pick out of Penn State, might be pressed into action Sunday against Houston if Holmes is still hobbled by a sore ankle. He has expressed his unhappiness over not playing, and on Wednesday, dismissed the suggestion that Vermeil was trying to motivate him with comments made in his weekly news conference.

"I don't need no motivation," Johnson said. "If I need motivation, I'll talk to my father. I don't need another grown man telling me I need to take the diapers off.

"That's not how I've been raised, and I don't need no motivation from anybody. I'm self-motivated because my father taught me to be that way."

Johnson has played sparingly behind Holmes, even dropping to third team behind Derrick Blaylock. His father, Larry Johnson Sr., is defensive line coach at Penn State.

"I don't really listen to that kind of stuff," the younger Johnson said of Vermeil's comments. "If the man can't say something in my face, that's how I feel. It don't mean nothing to me."

Vermeil has criticized Johnson in the past for his casual approach toward preparation, and made the remark when asked about the possibility of Holmes missing Sunday's game.

Vermeil, whose 0-2 team has already been beset by distractions and injuries, said the remark "just popped into my scrambled head."

"He's got some pressure on him now because if Priest doesn't play, he's going to be carrying a load, and it's a lot of responsibility that so far he has a way to go to prove he can handle it," Vermeil said. "And I'm looking forward to giving him the opportunity if Priest can't play."

Although the comment was made in jest, "in a way, there's a little truth to it," Vermeil said.

"I like Larry and I see his talent. And I've spent more time with Larry Johnson than all my roster combined in the last two years, and so has everybody else in this building. And sooner or later he's going to recognize that," Vermeil said.

Vermeil made it clear the day Johnson was drafted that he would have preferred to take a defensive player. But Holmes was coming off hip surgery, and the organization decided it needed insurance at running back.

Last season, Johnson had 20 carries for 85 yards, including a 15-yard touchdown run.

"Yes, it's a little frustrating when they bring you here and they can't tell you whether you're going to play or you're not going to play," Johnson said. "That's just how I feel. By no means I'm going to stop going hard here and going hard every day in practice. It's just something that's frustrating right now and would be to anybody who's in my position."

Vermeil said he understands Johnson's frustration.

"The kid wants to play football badly. He loves to play," Vermeil said. "But in this league they just don't automatically retire Priest Holmes."

"He has all the talent in the world," Vermeil said of Johnson, "and sooner or later, he'll have his opportunity to take advantage of it."

Asked if the statement would impact his relationship with the coach, Johnson said, "It affects a lot of things.

"But that's between to him and me to figure that out. There's a lot of things going on that I want to address but I want to wait to the right time for me to do that."
I don't know whether Baldwin will succeed or fail, but I know that he's the only WR/RB commonly available beyond the top 3 rookie picks who's been given the first round seal of approval by an NFL front office. That's pretty significant, IMO. So I would really caution against dropping him far down your lists just because he hasn't been a training camp darling. For me, he's been one of the most underrated rookies in this crop for months, and that has only intensified now that a lot of panicked people are downgrading his long term outlook based on a few flimsy short term indicators.
 
OMFG, please stop arguing with a Baldwin owner over Baldwin's fantasy stock.

Of course he is the next Jerry Rice. You will never win this argument.

Let it go.

 
OMFG, please stop arguing with a Baldwin owner over Baldwin's fantasy stock.Of course he is the next Jerry Rice. You will never win this argument.Let it go.
That's not the point of what I'm saying at all. He has a big bust risk, like most prospects. I'm not arguing that Baldwin is a lock for stardom. I'm just trying to point out a broader problem of prematurely downgrading high quality prospects based on ambiguous early returns. I see this happen almost every year, with 1st round talents being dropped below marginal talents just because they aren't producing right out of the gate. I think most people are naturally impatient and I think it's something that can work against you in the dynasty format. It's just something to consider when you think about moving a Denarius Moore or Kendall Hunter ahead of a Jonathan Baldwin in your rookie rankings.
 
OMFG, please stop arguing with a Baldwin owner over Baldwin's fantasy stock.

Of course he is the next Jerry Rice. You will never win this argument.

Let it go.
I hate this "OMG YOU MUST BE A _________ OWNER!" nonsense. If I'm on these boards talking about how criminally underrated Player X is, then you are damn freaking right I'm a Player X owner. If I really believe that the guy is criminally underrated, then I'm getting my ### out there, working the damn phone lines, and doing what it takes to trade for him. You've got the causal arrow reversed- I don't think he's underrated because I happen to own him, I happen to own him because I think he's underrated.I will never, ever, ever trust anyone who is posting on here in support of a player if that person does not own the player in question. If even he doesn't believe what he's saying enough to act upon it, then why the hell should I?

 
OMFG, please stop arguing with a Baldwin owner over Baldwin's fantasy stock.Of course he is the next Jerry Rice. You will never win this argument.Let it go.
You have a meager 700 posts, EBF and SSOG have nearly 12,000 and this is what you have to contribute............WOW!!I pick later in the draft and have a feeling the Baldwin my fall to me. I'm NOT a fan at all and think his a HUGE risk but the discussion between EBF and SSOG has me thinking so if you don't like it don't post because you provided absolutely nothing.
 
You have a meager 700 posts, EBF and SSOG have nearly 12,000 and this is what you have to contribute............WOW!!I pick later in the draft and have a feeling the Baldwin my fall to me. I'm NOT a fan at all and think his a HUGE risk but the discussion between EBF and SSOG has me thinking so if you don't like it don't post because you provided absolutely nothing.
I was merely pointing out that no one would ever change EBF's mind and the thread seemed to be getting off track. I don't need 1.4 trillion posts to be interested in others' rankings with my draft coming later today. ..and please, in the future, don't be an internet tough guy
 
You have a meager 700 posts, EBF and SSOG have nearly 12,000 and this is what you have to contribute............WOW!!I pick later in the draft and have a feeling the Baldwin my fall to me. I'm NOT a fan at all and think his a HUGE risk but the discussion between EBF and SSOG has me thinking so if you don't like it don't post because you provided absolutely nothing.
I was merely pointing out that no one would ever change EBF's mind and the thread seemed to be getting off track. I don't need 1.4 trillion posts to be interested in others' rankings with my draft coming later today. ..and please, in the future, don't be an internet tough guy
You know it might have got a little bit off-tract but the information provided during the discussion to me is priceless. Alot of good stuff that I was able to get something out of and why I usually love reading whatever each of them provides as they do work I love to steal for my own ideas. For me I dont really care about a few extra posts if I get the main stuff. I am pretty sure EBF would see that Baldwins value is dropping and make the necessary moves to get him at great value as he sees him at 1.4 value.
 
You have a meager 700 posts, EBF and SSOG have nearly 12,000 and this is what you have to contribute............WOW!!

I pick later in the draft and have a feeling the Baldwin my fall to me. I'm NOT a fan at all and think his a HUGE risk but the discussion between EBF and SSOG has me thinking so if you don't like it don't post because you provided absolutely nothing.
I was merely pointing out that no one would ever change EBF's mind and the thread seemed to be getting off track.I don't need 1.4 trillion posts to be interested in others' rankings with my draft coming later today.

..and please, in the future, don't be an internet tough guy
That's funny.
 
OMFG, please stop arguing with a Baldwin owner over Baldwin's fantasy stock.

Of course he is the next Jerry Rice. You will never win this argument.

Let it go.
I hate this "OMG YOU MUST BE A _________ OWNER!" nonsense. If I'm on these boards talking about how criminally underrated Player X is, then you are damn freaking right I'm a Player X owner. If I really believe that the guy is criminally underrated, then I'm getting my ### out there, working the damn phone lines, and doing what it takes to trade for him. You've got the causal arrow reversed- I don't think he's underrated because I happen to own him, I happen to own him because I think he's underrated.I will never, ever, ever trust anyone who is posting on here in support of a player if that person does not own the player in question. If even he doesn't believe what he's saying enough to act upon it, then why the hell should I?
:goodposting: Funny how people always think that most posters are just randomly arguing in favor of players they own. Players get drafted by owners who watch games, do research, and become high on their talent and chances to succeed. Also, most of us probably play in enough leagues to own half of its players in one place or another anyway. I am more of a reader here than a poster but I do know that when EBF or SSOG give explanations, I at least read them even though I may not agree with every single one.

 
OMFG, please stop arguing with a Baldwin owner over Baldwin's fantasy stock.Of course he is the next Jerry Rice. You will never win this argument.Let it go.
You have a meager 700 posts, EBF and SSOG have nearly 12,000 and this is what you have to contribute............WOW!!I pick later in the draft and have a feeling the Baldwin my fall to me. I'm NOT a fan at all and think his a HUGE risk but the discussion between EBF and SSOG has me thinking so if you don't like it don't post because you provided absolutely nothing.
Post count == intelligenceGood logic, thanks for contributing
 
OMFG, please stop arguing with a Baldwin owner over Baldwin's fantasy stock.

Of course he is the next Jerry Rice. You will never win this argument.

Let it go.
I hate this "OMG YOU MUST BE A _________ OWNER!" nonsense. If I'm on these boards talking about how criminally underrated Player X is, then you are damn freaking right I'm a Player X owner. If I really believe that the guy is criminally underrated, then I'm getting my ### out there, working the damn phone lines, and doing what it takes to trade for him. You've got the causal arrow reversed- I don't think he's underrated because I happen to own him, I happen to own him because I think he's underrated.I will never, ever, ever trust anyone who is posting on here in support of a player if that person does not own the player in question. If even he doesn't believe what he's saying enough to act upon it, then why the hell should I?
Wait a second. The fact that a person doesn't own a particular player does not make their opinion any less valid. There are players that I strongly support that I don't own, because their current owners won't part with them in trade. And the fact that one could overpay for a player so that they can own them doesn't make their opinion any more valid either. As an example EBF traded Calvin Johnson for Crabtree a couple years back, but I don't think that proved his opinion about Crabtree was more valid than someone who didn't own him.
 
OMFG, please stop arguing with a Baldwin owner over Baldwin's fantasy stock.

Of course he is the next Jerry Rice. You will never win this argument.

Let it go.
You have a meager 700 posts, EBF and SSOG have nearly 12,000 and this is what you have to contribute............WOW!!I pick later in the draft and have a feeling the Baldwin my fall to me. I'm NOT a fan at all and think his a HUGE risk but the discussion between EBF and SSOG has me thinking so if you don't like it don't post because you provided absolutely nothing.
Post count == intelligenceGood logic, thanks for contributing
LHUCKS has 43,000 posts, more than EBF and SSOG combined. With that logic, he has more to contribute than those two.
 
I don't have a problem with Moore in the top 10, but I still think Cobb needs to be ahead of him. After the clear top 5 of:

Ingram

Green

Jones

Little

Thomas

I think it then goes:

Cobb

Carter

Vereen

Powell

Ridley

 
OMFG, please stop arguing with a Baldwin owner over Baldwin's fantasy stock.

Of course he is the next Jerry Rice. You will never win this argument.

Let it go.
I hate this "OMG YOU MUST BE A _________ OWNER!" nonsense. If I'm on these boards talking about how criminally underrated Player X is, then you are damn freaking right I'm a Player X owner. If I really believe that the guy is criminally underrated, then I'm getting my ### out there, working the damn phone lines, and doing what it takes to trade for him. You've got the causal arrow reversed- I don't think he's underrated because I happen to own him, I happen to own him because I think he's underrated.I will never, ever, ever trust anyone who is posting on here in support of a player if that person does not own the player in question. If even he doesn't believe what he's saying enough to act upon it, then why the hell should I?
Wait a second. The fact that a person doesn't own a particular player does not make their opinion any less valid. There are players that I strongly support that I don't own, because their current owners won't part with them in trade. And the fact that one could overpay for a player so that they can own them doesn't make their opinion any more valid either. As an example EBF traded Calvin Johnson for Crabtree a couple years back, but I don't think that proved his opinion about Crabtree was more valid than someone who didn't own him.
Sure, it depends on your league, but you better have at least made a good faith effort to acquire him. This came up last year when people where projecting numbers for Finley that would have warranted the #1 overall pick... but when I asked them if they'd ever pick him #1, all I got were crickets. If even you aren't buying what you're peddling, then I sure as hell won't be, either.
 

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