Early DL Rankings (1 Viewer)

[Jene Bramel]

Early DL Rankings

I've been delaying doing this set of projections and generating the rankings hoping for some visions that bring clarity to this group. Even for a tier guy like me, I think anything after the top 17-18 looks like target some upside and hope for the best. I expect everything after the top 20 to look very different by August.

It's even worse with the defensive tackles. Here's an early gestalt. This group will be the most difficult of the five positions. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I note that any and all homer insights will be very welcome.

1 AMOBI OKOYE

2 TOMMY KELLY

3 JOVAN HAYE

4 JONATHAN BABINEAUX

5 DARNELL DOCKETT

6 KELLY GREGG

7 ALBERT HAYNESWORTH

8 RAHEEM BROCK

9 TOMMIE HARRIS

10 MIKE PATTERSON

11 KEVIN WILLIAMS

12 ADAM CARRIKER

13 HALOTI NGATA

14 DAMIONE LEWIS

15 JOHN MCCARGO

16 BRIAN YOUNG

17 FRED ROBBINS

18 PAT WILLIAMS

19 VINCE WILFORK

20 SHAUN ROGERS

21 JOHN HENDERSON

22 DOMATA PEKO

23 ROB MEIER

24 CORY REDDING

25 KRIS JENKINS

I've got plenty of opinions, but I'll let you guys drive the discussion.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Nice list JB.

You got something against Tony Brown?

 

[Jene Bramel]

Nice list JB.You got something against Tony Brown?

No, not really. Not sure there's too much upside there is all, but he's as likely as any of the others to fit into the 16-25 range among the DTs.

 

[Michael Fox Fan]

Great list Jene. Always enjoy your rankings.

Do you see Suggs as a DL this year? If so, why? Do you see him winning arbitration?

Are there any "high variance" guys from the 11-25 range who you could see finishing top-5?

 

[crazy gadget]

 

[Jene Bramel]

Great list Jene. Always enjoy your rankings. Do you see Suggs as a DL this year? If so, why? Do you see him winning arbitration?Are there any "high variance" guys from the 11-25 range who you could see finishing top-5?

I waffled on Suggs on our (soon to be released) podcast last night, too. The league management websites were pretty much on the ball last season. If Suggs doesn't win his arbitration and the tag sticks for the entire season, it's going to be hard for him (and possibly Jason Taylor) to stay designated as DL into September.I've left them where they've been for now, but dropped both a few spots due to the risk.Gaines Adams and Derrick Burgess are the guys that jump out to me as big upside guys who could put up 14 sacks if things break well.

 

[bcr8f]

Nice list but I have Haynesworth higher if healthy.

 

[obxlegends]

Jene, any thoughts on Victor Adeyanju?

I'm also surprised with Juqua Thomas not being listed. I thought he played quite well last year part time.

Thanks!

 

[Jene Bramel]

Jene, any thoughts on Victor Adeyanju?I'm also surprised with Juqua Thomas not being listed. I thought he played quite well last year part time.Thanks!

No thoughts on Adeyanju. Has potential, but is missing that something that would make up for his lack of elite skill.I'm reserving judgment on Thomas, Clemons and Abiamiri until one of them proves he can hit the tackle numbers despite the hockey line rotation in Philly or plays well enough to get a significant number of snaps.

 

[Tick]

I'm surprised to see the DTs and 3-4 DEs listed above the young unproven 4-3 DEs. I'd much rather have the potential of IAF than a replacement level guy.

Why McClover and no Charles Johnson?

What are the chances Erasmus James ever gets healthy and makes an impact?

 

[Young 8]

is there an estimated date for DB rankings ??

thx in advance

 

[Jene Bramel]

I'm surprised to see the DTs and 3-4 DEs listed above the young unproven 4-3 DEs. I'd much rather have the potential of IAF than a replacement level guy.

Why McClover and no Charles Johnson?

What are the chances Erasmus James ever gets healthy and makes an impact?

Agreed on the IAF/potential comment. I haven't made up my mind on IAF or Jamaal Anderson yet for 2008, so they're sort of floating on the back end while I drag my feet. People have suggested (maybe it was even you) that we do a From The Gut IDP feature similar to what DD does for the offensive side. That's probably a better way of getting my rankings and tiers across. In this case, the high potential 4-3 DEs I like (that may not be evident just by looking at the 1-60) are Gaines Adams, Derrick Burgess, Ray Edwards and......one of the Carolina ends, whether it be McClover or Johnson. I like both; McClover is there because he moved ahead of Johnson in camp and Johnson never really pushed him out of the way in-season. Whichever one earns the bulk of the playing time probably gets bumped to the low 20s - high 30s on my list.

I'm pretty much done with Erasmus James -- his left knee has to be a total mess by now and he's never made a consistent impact in any of his three seasons when "healthy". His scouting reports always impressed me, though, so if he shows up with a good game I'll advocating moving on him.

 

[Jene Bramel]

is there an estimated date for DB rankings ??thx in advance

Hopefully by the end of this coming week.

 

[Chaos Commish]

I'm surprised to see the DTs and 3-4 DEs listed above the young unproven 4-3 DEs. I'd much rather have the potential of IAF than a replacement level guy.

Why McClover and no Charles Johnson?

What are the chances Erasmus James ever gets healthy and makes an impact?

Agreed on the IAF/potential comment. I haven't made up my mind on IAF or Jamaal Anderson yet for 2008, so they're sort of floating on the back end while I drag my feet. People have suggested (maybe it was even you) that we do a From The Gut IDP feature similar to what DD does for the offensive side. That's probably a better way of getting my rankings and tiers across. In this case, the high potential 4-3 DEs I like (that may not be evident just by looking at the 1-60) are Gaines Adams, Derrick Burgess, Ray Edwards and......one of the Carolina ends, whether it be McClover or Johnson. I like both; McClover is there because he moved ahead of Johnson in camp and Johnson never really pushed him out of the way in-season. Whichever one earns the bulk of the playing time probably gets bumped to the low 20s - high 30s on my list.

I'm pretty much done with Erasmus James -- his left knee has to be a total mess by now and he's never made a consistent impact in any of his three seasons when "healthy". His scouting reports always impressed me, though, so if he shows up with a good game I'll advocating moving on him.

Not sure why, but Yahoo lists Johnson as the backup at both L and RDE, with no mention of McClover and Brayton starting. USA Today discusses the Brayton acquisition (and I like their reporting because it is obvious they are in communication with the teams), and they report the competition is going to be between Johnson and Brayton. Again no mention of McClover. Just a little vibe I'm picking up. I would expect Brayton was a silly acquisition and McClover and Johnson are both better options, but for some reason those digging around the situation are not counting Stanley in the mix. Of course, I expect Johnson to win the role enroute to his first of many great seasons, but I always like McClover too. I predict Mark Anderson will recover from his sophomore injury plagued slump and come back very stout against the run in addition to what he does best. Hard working dedicated kid with a lot to prove and a chip on his shoulder.

 

[Tick]

I like the Mark Anderson call - he wasn't ready this season, but I could see him playing as a rush specialist this year barring injuries in front of him, then coming back to a full time roll next season as a better all-around end. This seems like the offseason to take a shot on him if you can get him for cheap.

 

[Jene Bramel]

I predict Mark Anderson will recover from his sophomore injury plagued slump and come back very stout against the run in addition to what he does best. Hard working dedicated kid with a lot to prove and a chip on his shoulder.

Anderson is going to be another test of my gut. I really, really liked what I saw from Anderson against the run in 2006. He looked solid in pursuit and he passed the test of a part-time player who looked able to play a full time role -- 12 sacks but 24 solo tackles. If he gets the starting job back, he'll be screaming up my lists. I don't remember there being a lot of minor injuries before the knee thing, though. What am I missing there?

 

[Chaos Commish]

I predict Mark Anderson will recover from his sophomore injury plagued slump and come back very stout against the run in addition to what he does best. Hard working dedicated kid with a lot to prove and a chip on his shoulder.

Anderson is going to be another test of my gut. I really, really liked what I saw from Anderson against the run in 2006. He looked solid in pursuit and he passed the test of a part-time player who looked able to play a full time role -- 12 sacks but 24 solo tackles. If he gets the starting job back, he'll be screaming up my lists. I don't remember there being a lot of minor injuries before the knee thing, though. What am I missing there?

Hmm... I read an article about him (that got my hopes up but I'm a sucker for the puff piece) and he referred to plural injuries, so that's all I got. I'll look for the piece. I could be mistaken. Also, more on Charles Johnson starting here. Now it could be that your observations are actually better and McClover is just under the pundit radar where IDP junkies are a little more in tune, but this is a steady theme. And of course, few are more interested in Charles Johnson than me.

 

[pretender]

I predict Mark Anderson will recover from his sophomore injury plagued slump and come back very stout against the run in addition to what he does best. Hard working dedicated kid with a lot to prove and a chip on his shoulder.

Anderson is going to be another test of my gut. I really, really liked what I saw from Anderson against the run in 2006. He looked solid in pursuit and he passed the test of a part-time player who looked able to play a full time role -- 12 sacks but 24 solo tackles. If he gets the starting job back, he'll be screaming up my lists. I don't remember there being a lot of minor injuries before the knee thing, though. What am I missing there?

Hmm... I read an article about him (that got my hopes up but I'm a sucker for the puff piece) and he referred to plural injuries, so that's all I got. I'll look for the piece. I could be mistaken. Also, more on Charles Johnson starting here. Now it could be that your observations are actually better and McClover is just under the pundit radar where IDP junkies are a little more in tune, but this is a steady theme. And of course, few are more interested in Charles Johnson than me.

Link doesn't seem to work - could you paraphrase it here?

 

[Tick]

I predict Mark Anderson will recover from his sophomore injury plagued slump and come back very stout against the run in addition to what he does best. Hard working dedicated kid with a lot to prove and a chip on his shoulder.

Anderson is going to be another test of my gut. I really, really liked what I saw from Anderson against the run in 2006. He looked solid in pursuit and he passed the test of a part-time player who looked able to play a full time role -- 12 sacks but 24 solo tackles. If he gets the starting job back, he'll be screaming up my lists. I don't remember there being a lot of minor injuries before the knee thing, though. What am I missing there?

Hmm... I read an article about him (that got my hopes up but I'm a sucker for the puff piece) and he referred to plural injuries, so that's all I got. I'll look for the piece. I could be mistaken. Also, more on Charles Johnson starting here. Now it could be that your observations are actually better and McClover is just under the pundit radar where IDP junkies are a little more in tune, but this is a steady theme. And of course, few are more interested in Charles Johnson than me.

Link doesn't seem to work - could you paraphrase it here?

Projected starters on D:

DT - Damione Lewis ... His quickness will help, but Panthers need depth here.

DT - Ma’ake Kemoeatu ... With Jenkins gone, he's the primary run stuffer on the line.

DE - Julius Peppers ... Panthers need him to return to form after a subpar '07.

DE - Charles Johnson-y ... Signee Tyler Brayton could start; so could a draftee like Derrick Harvey.

MLB - Jon Beason ... In only one year, he's become the team's rock solid defensive leader.

OLB - Thomas Davis ... Finally coming into his own and may be ready for breakout season.

OLB - Landon Johnson-x ... Former Bengal will battle with Na'il Diggs for this spot.

CB - Ken Lucas ... Richard Marshall is an excellent backup who could beat out Lucas or Gamble.

CB - Chris Gamble ... Cornerback is probably the Panthers' most stable position in terms of recent turnover.

SS - Chris Harris ... New contract reveals team's confidence in his long-term viability as a starter.

FS - Terrence Holt-x ... This spot is still a question mark. Holt struggled last year with Cardinals.

 

[pretender]

I predict Mark Anderson will recover from his sophomore injury plagued slump and come back very stout against the run in addition to what he does best. Hard working dedicated kid with a lot to prove and a chip on his shoulder.

Anderson is going to be another test of my gut. I really, really liked what I saw from Anderson against the run in 2006. He looked solid in pursuit and he passed the test of a part-time player who looked able to play a full time role -- 12 sacks but 24 solo tackles. If he gets the starting job back, he'll be screaming up my lists. I don't remember there being a lot of minor injuries before the knee thing, though. What am I missing there?

Hmm... I read an article about him (that got my hopes up but I'm a sucker for the puff piece) and he referred to plural injuries, so that's all I got. I'll look for the piece. I could be mistaken. Also, more on Charles Johnson starting here. Now it could be that your observations are actually better and McClover is just under the pundit radar where IDP junkies are a little more in tune, but this is a steady theme. And of course, few are more interested in Charles Johnson than me.

Link doesn't seem to work - could you paraphrase it here?

Projected starters on D:

DT - Damione Lewis ... His quickness will help, but Panthers need depth here.

DT - Ma’ake Kemoeatu ... With Jenkins gone, he's the primary run stuffer on the line.

DE - Julius Peppers ... Panthers need him to return to form after a subpar '07.

DE - Charles Johnson-y ... Signee Tyler Brayton could start; so could a draftee like Derrick Harvey.

MLB - Jon Beason ... In only one year, he's become the team's rock solid defensive leader.

OLB - Thomas Davis ... Finally coming into his own and may be ready for breakout season.

OLB - Landon Johnson-x ... Former Bengal will battle with Na'il Diggs for this spot.

CB - Ken Lucas ... Richard Marshall is an excellent backup who could beat out Lucas or Gamble.

CB - Chris Gamble ... Cornerback is probably the Panthers' most stable position in terms of recent turnover.

SS - Chris Harris ... New contract reveals team's confidence in his long-term viability as a starter.

FS - Terrence Holt-x ... This spot is still a question mark. Holt struggled last year with Cardinals.

 

[Chaos Commish]

I predict Mark Anderson will recover from his sophomore injury plagued slump and come back very stout against the run in addition to what he does best. Hard working dedicated kid with a lot to prove and a chip on his shoulder.

Anderson is going to be another test of my gut. I really, really liked what I saw from Anderson against the run in 2006. He looked solid in pursuit and he passed the test of a part-time player who looked able to play a full time role -- 12 sacks but 24 solo tackles. If he gets the starting job back, he'll be screaming up my lists. I don't remember there being a lot of minor injuries before the knee thing, though. What am I missing there?

Hmm... I read an article about him (that got my hopes up but I'm a sucker for the puff piece) and he referred to plural injuries, so that's all I got. I'll look for the piece. I could be mistaken. Also, more on Charles Johnson starting here. Now it could be that your observations are actually better and McClover is just under the pundit radar where IDP junkies are a little more in tune, but this is a steady theme. And of course, few are more interested in Charles Johnson than me.

Link doesn't seem to work - could you paraphrase it here?

Weird. It's just a projected starting lineup from Panthers Insiders:

Projected Panthers lineup, as of today

Here’s a look at the Panthers projected starting lineup as of today. It includes four of the eight free agent signees. Look for at least one or two new starters to come from the draft.

QB - Jake Delhomme ... Recovery from elbow surgery said to be going well.

RB - DeAngelo Williams ... Ready for more carries, but sidekick could come from draft.

FB - Brad Hoover ... Mr. Reliable back for another year.

WR - Steve Smith ... Finally, he may get the help he needs.

WR - D.J. Hackett--x ... If he's healthy, he could be a force. Muhsin Muhammad also a factor.

TE - Jeff King ... Figures to split playing time with Dante Rosario.

RG - Keydrick Vincent--x ... This could be Bridges if an OT comes via the draft.

LG - Travelle Wharton ... Better suited to move inside than to play LT.

RT - Jeremy Bridges-y ... First- or second-round draft pick could start here or at LT. Gross can play either.

LT - Jordan Gross ... Franchise player waiting to hear which side he'll play.

C - Ryan Kalil ... Is he ready to live up to potential after release of Hartwig?

DT - Damione Lewis ... His quickness will help, but Panthers need depth here.

DT - Ma’ake Kemoeatu ... With Jenkins gone, he's the primary run stuffer on the line.

DE - Julius Peppers ... Panthers need him to return to form after a subpar '07.

DE - Charles Johnson-y ... Signee Tyler Brayton could start; so could a draftee like Derrick Harvey.

MLB - Jon Beason ... In only one year, he's become the team's rock solid defensive leader.

OLB - Thomas Davis ... Finally coming into his own and may be ready for breakout season.

OLB - Landon Johnson-x ... Former Bengal will battle with Na'il Diggs for this spot.

CB - Ken Lucas ... Richard Marshall is an excellent backup who could beat out Lucas or Gamble.

CB - Chris Gamble ... Cornerback is probably the Panthers' most stable position in terms of recent turnover.

SS - Chris Harris ... New contract reveals team's confidence in his long-term viability as a starter.

FS - Terrence Holt-x ... This spot is still a question mark. Holt struggled last year with Cardinals.

It' a common theme out there, but this morning I decided to specifically google McClover and he's certainly still in the picture. With Johnson, you just search Panthers info and he's there. Probably because he was a 3rd rounder last year and has higher expectations than a 7th rounder two years ago. We'll see. McClover was a very good player in college and he seemed to have a definite edge on Johnson early last year. Jene is correct about that. It's muddy for sure.

 

[Weiner Dog]

I can see the rationale with most of your DT's, but how does Babineauz make an appearance in the Top-5?? A monster like Tommie Harris (ranked #9) dwarfs him in both talent and production. Harris was on pace for a 14-sack season thru the first-half of last year before suffering a knee injury which would have driven most players to the bench. Plus, Harris is fighting for a long-term extension.

I also like Mike Patterson as a Top-5 DT. He can rush from the interior and is a lock for 50+ tackles. While we're looking the Eagles DL, I view Brodrick Bunkley as a "sleeper" DT this year. The #14 overall pick from '06 could easily leap into the 40-6 category.

My Top-5 DT rankings:

1. Tommie Harris

2. Amobi Okoye

3. Darnell Dockett

4. Mike Patterson

5. Jovan Haye

 

[Jene Bramel]

I can see the rationale with most of your DT's, but how does Babineauz make an appearance in the Top-5?? A monster like Tommie Harris (ranked #9) dwarfs him in both talent and production. Harris was on pace for a 14-sack season thru the first-half of last year before suffering a knee injury which would have driven most players to the bench. Plus, Harris is fighting for a long-term extension.I also like Mike Patterson as a Top-5 DT. He can rush from the interior and is a lock for 50+ tackles. While we're looking the Eagles DL, I view Brodrick Bunkley as a "sleeper" DT this year. The #14 overall pick from '06 could easily leap into the 40-6 category.My Top-5 DT rankings:1. Tommie Harris2. Amobi Okoye3. Darnell Dockett4. Mike Patterson5. Jovan Haye

I'm not completely sold on Babineaux either, especially if Mike Smith moves away from the NT/UT alignment the Falcons have used in the past. But he was very solid when Coleman was out (33 solos and three sacks in nine games and that's ignoring Week 11 when Coleman left early). That solo tackle production is tough to ignore in the FBG scoring system.I realize that Tommie Harris gets plenty of Pro Bowl love and hype as the next Warren Sapp. I've probably got some blinders on here, but I don't see it when I watch him play. Knee injury or not, over the past three seasons, much of his feasting has been on inferior interior lines (DET, KC, SEA in 2006), and he's nowhere near the run supporting tackle that Sapp, Glover, Coleman etal were in the UT role. I know I underrate him, but he's in the same group as Julius Peppers for me -- big name, very inconsistent production. However, I had forgotten about the contract angle; that extra motivator will be enough for me to bump him a few spots in the next version. Thanks.The Bunkley call is interesting, too.

 

[Tick]

One guy I'd like to hear opinions on is Greg White from Tampa Bay. He had three incredible games in the last half of the season, but three clunkers as well. I didn't see him much last year - was it a Spicer-like mirage, or could he become something?

 

[FUBAR]

One guy I'd like to hear opinions on is Greg White from Tampa Bay. He had three incredible games in the last half of the season, but three clunkers as well. I didn't see him much last year - was it a Spicer-like mirage, or could he become something?

good question. They signed Douglas, so I wouldn't count on much from White.

 

[Weiner Dog]

One guy I'd like to hear opinions on is Greg White from Tampa Bay. He had three incredible games in the last half of the season, but three clunkers as well. I didn't see him much last year - was it a Spicer-like mirage, or could he become something?

good question. They signed Douglas, so I wouldn't count on much from White.

...and Kevin Carter...and they still have Gaines Adams.I see White as a situational pass-rusher

 

[Jene Bramel]

One guy I'd like to hear opinions on is Greg White from Tampa Bay. He had three incredible games in the last half of the season, but three clunkers as well. I didn't see him much last year - was it a Spicer-like mirage, or could he become something?

good question. They signed Douglas, so I wouldn't count on much from White.

...and Kevin Carter...and they still have Gaines Adams.I see White as a situational pass-rusher

Agreed. Carter/Douglas are probably the favorites to play on early downs ahead of White. With Haye and Peterson and Hovan rotating inside, I don't see a huge number of snaps for White. He's an interesting guy, though. 8.5 sacks (21 solos) and 7 forced fumbles could be a fluke (especially with his less than impressive pedigree) or it could be a guy who's found his niche as an explosive pass rusher. He's either the next Dumervil or McCray.

 

[LBH]

Kenyon Coleman finished as DL #15 in one of my dynasty leagues that awards 2pts per tackle. While Coleman cant be counted on in sacks, he does make quite a few tackles. I noticed he wasnt in your top 60. Do you see a big drop off in tackle production going forward?

 

[Jene Bramel]

Kenyon Coleman finished as DL #15 in one of my dynasty leagues that awards 2pts per tackle. While Coleman cant be counted on in sacks, he does make quite a few tackles. I noticed he wasnt in your top 60. Do you see a big drop off in tackle production going forward?

He probably belongs in the top 60. He could still hit 40-45 solos, which would probably get him into the 45-60 range. His ten tackle opening week last year really boosted his stats. While it's totally arbitrary, his 8 week solo tackle split was 34-22. I think the 22 is much more likely to be his baseline than 34. I don't see much upside with him.

 

[Toxic Gatorade]

What are your thoughts on Chris Canty, DE DAL?

From what I've seen reported, he will be starting at DE this year......pure speculation though.......but just wondering since you ranked 60 DT/DE's, where does he fit in your thoughts? Or are the reports I've seen just team talk?

Thanx!

 

[Jene Bramel]

What are your thoughts on Chris Canty, DE DAL?From what I've seen reported, he will be starting at DE this year......pure speculation though.......but just wondering since you ranked 60 DT/DE's, where does he fit in your thoughts? Or are the reports I've seen just team talk?Thanx!

He started last year and should get the bulk of the snaps again this year.I liked Canty a lot last year as a sneaky equivalent to a Luis Castillo or Marques Douglas. He did fairly well, but isn't going to provide enough -- pass rush or solo tackles -- to have any consistent value. He'll need a better pass rush from the LBs and better NT play to get the numbers bump, and I'm not seeing it yet.

 

[Young 8]

Hey Jene, what do you think about Dewayne White ?

He had a great first half last year..before the injury

first 8 games :

- 24+7 tkl

- 5,5 sack

- 2 ff

- 2 fr

- 3 pd

- 1 td

thx in advance

 

[Jene Bramel]

Hey Jene, what do you think about Dewayne White ?

He had a great first half last year..before the injury

first 8 games :

- 24+7 tkl

- 5,5 sack

- 2 ff

- 2 fr

- 3 pd

- 1 td

thx in advance

Too inconsistent for me right now, but there's enough upside to keep him around the top 20. Only three games with more than three solo tackles and only four games with a sack. His splits in games won vs games lost isn't reassuring -- it appears he did much better when the Lions were winning. I'm not sure the Lions will be much better, so White looks like a DL2 who you use with a favorable matchup. It also warrants mentioning that the DT rotation is worse and there's still little to look forward to at the other DL position -- depending on how IAF develops.The injury split is interesting, too, but it's hard to know whether that had as much of an impact as the other issues.