Edelman fumble recovery for a TD (1 Viewer)

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

The real question is, if your league already awards individual TD's as well as DEF/ST for a special teams TD (kickoff or punt return), should Edelman's TD be honored?

I don't see why it would. Edelman didn't return a kickoff or a punt here. He returned a fumble. Do you normally award 6 points to the individual who returns a fumble for a TD?

 

[T J]

Definitely NOT schtick. I honestly do not believe it would have been a new mechanism. I honestly, and not schtickly, believe that where rules are silent, an interpretation needs to be made if a situation arises that necessitates one. I consider this to be such a case. But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions right?

I assume you don't have a rule specifically defining how points are awarded to a kicker who picks up a botched snap on a FG attempt and runs it in for a TD. That doesn't mean your rules are "silent" on this issue. You would award him 6 points, because your league awards 6 points to individuals for rushing TDs. The fact that he usually kicks instead of runs with the ball doesn't matter. It's a rushing TD, and your rules do, in fact, outline how points are awarded for rushing TDs. You also don't have a rule specifically defining how points are awarded to a WR who picks up a fumble on an opponent's kick return and runs it in for a TD. That doesn't mean your rules are "silent" on this issue, either. You award the NE defense 6 points, because your league awards 6 points to the team defense for defensive fumble recovery TDs. It's a defensive TD, and your rules do, in fact, outline how defensive TDs are scored. There's no gap in the rules here that necessitates an alternate interpretation. Next year, if you want to add a scoring rule that awards points to the individual defender in addition to the team defense, that's fine. But that's not the rule you currently have in place, and it's not something you can just add in week 12.

I understand your point. I do. I have from the beginning of this discussion. Before it even started actually. But me understanding it and me agreeing with it are two different things. I'm obviously not going to change your perspective and I'm pretty sure I'm pretty much onboard with my own, so let's leave it at that. What I think is right is irrelevant to how I commish the league.

 

[SonnyD]

The real question is, if your league already awards individual TD's as well as DEF/ST for a special teams TD (kickoff or punt return), should Edelman's TD be honored?

I don't see why it would. Edelman didn't return a kickoff or a punt here. He returned a fumble. Do you normally award 6 points to the individual who returns a fumble for a TD?

So what you're saying is there should be a distinction between which side of the special teams the score comes from? I mean, if you're giving individual credit to the special teams player on offense, why wouldn't credit be given to the individual playing ST on defense?

 

[SonnyD]

The real question is, if your league already awards individual TD's as well as DEF/ST for a special teams TD (kickoff or punt return), should Edelman's TD be honored?

I don't see why it would. Edelman didn't return a kickoff or a punt here. He returned a fumble. Do you normally award 6 points to the individual who returns a fumble for a TD?

I suppose it depends on the situation. Say Breees throws an interception in the end zone, the interceptor starts to bring the ball out and fumbles in the end zone, Jimmy Graham falls on the ball in the end zone for a TD.I assume most leagues would score this as 6 points for the Saints Def and ZERO for Graham. Is this correct?

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

The real question is, if your league already awards individual TD's as well as DEF/ST for a special teams TD (kickoff or punt return), should Edelman's TD be honored?

I don't see why it would. Edelman didn't return a kickoff or a punt here. He returned a fumble. Do you normally award 6 points to the individual who returns a fumble for a TD?

So what you're saying is there should be a distinction between which side of the special teams the score comes from? I mean, if you're giving individual credit to the special teams player on offense, why wouldn't credit be given to the individual playing ST on defense?

If you want to award defensive points to individual defenders, that's fine. But it's something you have to stipulate ahead of time, not decide after the fact. You said you award points to individuals for kickoff and punt returns. Edelman didn't return a kickoff or a punt for a TD.

 

[T J]

The real question is, if your league already awards individual TD's as well as DEF/ST for a special teams TD (kickoff or punt return), should Edelman's TD be honored?

I don't see why it would. Edelman didn't return a kickoff or a punt here. He returned a fumble. Do you normally award 6 points to the individual who returns a fumble for a TD?

Actually, we do. If it's one of those quirky plays where a receiver recovers a fumble, maybe his RB or maybe even if the defense had intercepted it and then fumbled it back and then it was returned by the WR for a TD, then ya, we do award 6pts for that. But no one ever questions it because the offense was on the field at the time. This case is unique in that Edelman was not on offense, but rather on the kickoff coverage team - presumably called the Defense here since MFL awarded defensive points.

 

[SonnyD]

The real question is, if your league already awards individual TD's as well as DEF/ST for a special teams TD (kickoff or punt return), should Edelman's TD be honored?

I don't see why it would. Edelman didn't return a kickoff or a punt here. He returned a fumble. Do you normally award 6 points to the individual who returns a fumble for a TD?

So what you're saying is there should be a distinction between which side of the special teams the score comes from? I mean, if you're giving individual credit to the special teams player on offense, why wouldn't credit be given to the individual playing ST on defense?

If you want to award defensive points to individual defenders, that's fine. But it's something you have to stipulate ahead of time, not decide after the fact. You said you award points to individuals for kickoff and punt returns. Edelman didn't return a kickoff or a punt for a TD.

The problem in our league, which has caused HUGE turmoil because the Edelman owner lost by 3 points and now needs to win to make the playoffs, is that half the members believe we agreed to give individual players on ST credit for TD's to account for things like the Edelman situation, but more so for the Brees/Graham example I gave above. The other half believe otherwise.Very difficult situation.

 

[SonnyD]

The real question is, if your league already awards individual TD's as well as DEF/ST for a special teams TD (kickoff or punt return), should Edelman's TD be honored?

I don't see why it would. Edelman didn't return a kickoff or a punt here. He returned a fumble. Do you normally award 6 points to the individual who returns a fumble for a TD?

Actually, we do. If it's one of those quirky plays where a receiver recovers a fumble, maybe his RB or maybe even if the defense had intercepted it and then fumbled it back and then it was returned by the WR for a TD, then ya, we do award 6pts for that. But no one ever questions it because the offense was on the field at the time. This case is unique in that Edelman was not on offense, but rather on the kickoff coverage team - presumably called the Defense here since MFL awarded defensive points.

Are you sure you aren't in my league TJ? Lol. We are having the exact same issue as your league and as Commish, it has caused a HUGE problem and things have gotten somewhat personal. Difficult situation.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

I suppose it depends on the situation. Say Breees throws an interception in the end zone, the interceptor starts to bring the ball out and fumbles in the end zone, Jimmy Graham falls on the ball in the end zone for a TD.I assume most leagues would score this as 6 points for the Saints Def and ZERO for Graham. Is this correct?

There's less consensus on something like this because it's much more unclear how you define the roles of the players on the field, and how those roles change mid-play. This exact type of scenario has happened more than once before, and it I'm sure it usually inspires a long thread full of valid debate on both sides of the issue. If Brady threw a pick, and then the Jet defender fumbled and Edelman (on the field as a WR) picked up the fumble and ran it in, it would be a different kind of discussion. I'd have to think harder about that kind of play (or actually, if this happened in my league, I'd simply look back at the precedent that was set the last time this kind of thing happened, because I know we've ruled on it before).But in the current scenario it's really not that ambiguous. Edelman was playing defense, he recovered a fumble on defense and he scored a TD on defense. In OP's league, defensive TDs are awarded to the team defense, not the individual defender. I don't see this as being an issue at all.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Sonny and TJ - I agree that the "two turnover" scenario is more complicated (e.g. QB throws a pick, defender fumbles on the return, WR picks it up and runs it for a TD). I believe it's a mistake to compare that to this situation, though. This is just a defensive TD, which you already have a scoring rule in place for.

 

[T J]

The real question is, if your league already awards individual TD's as well as DEF/ST for a special teams TD (kickoff or punt return), should Edelman's TD be honored?

I don't see why it would. Edelman didn't return a kickoff or a punt here. He returned a fumble. Do you normally award 6 points to the individual who returns a fumble for a TD?

Actually, we do. If it's one of those quirky plays where a receiver recovers a fumble, maybe his RB or maybe even if the defense had intercepted it and then fumbled it back and then it was returned by the WR for a TD, then ya, we do award 6pts for that. But no one ever questions it because the offense was on the field at the time. This case is unique in that Edelman was not on offense, but rather on the kickoff coverage team - presumably called the Defense here since MFL awarded defensive points.

Are you sure you aren't in my league TJ? Lol. We are having the exact same issue as your league and as Commish, it has caused a HUGE problem and things have gotten somewhat personal. Difficult situation.

Fortunately it's resolved in our league. League majority voted to not award the points and everyone is ok with the outcome and how it was dealt with. I don't happen to agree with the end result, but it's resolved. Good luck.

 

[SonnyD]

Sonny and TJ - I agree that the "two turnover" scenario is more complicated (e.g. QB throws a pick, defender fumbles on the return, WR picks it up and runs it for a TD). I believe it's a mistake to compare that to this situation, though. This is just a defensive TD, which you already have a scoring rule in place for.

I understand, but the issue in my league is half the members believe we began crediting individuals on DEF/ST to account for situations like the Brees/Graham example. And if that's the case, regardless of where Brees and Graham started off the play (on offense), the official scoring play is on defense since after the turnover they're now playing defense.This really isn't as clear cut as I think you're making it out to be. At least in my league the way scoring is set up, it isn't clear cut at all and it's why it's caused so many problems.

 

[Joe Summer]

A fumble recovery TD is a defensive TD.

Not every time.Offensive player recovers his own fumble = NOT a defensive TDOffensive player recovers teammate's fumble = NOT a defensive TDOffensive player recovers fumbled interception = NOT a defensive TDYou can also make an argument that recovery TDs on Special Teams plays are not technically "defensive" TDs.

 

[Joe Summer]

The real question is, if your league already awards individual TD's as well as DEF/ST for a special teams TD (kickoff or punt return), should Edelman's TD be honored?

In other words, our scoring settings are set up so that if Percy Harvin returns a kickoff for a TD, the Vikings DEF/ST would get 6 points and Harvin would also get 6 points.

And in this scenario, would this be considered making a rule change or correcting what perhaps wasn't properly set up (scoring setting) to begin with.

As to the bolded, I'm not sure if it's possible to properly set up a rule for this type of touchdown. Most websites don't have a scoring category that matches what Edelman did.

 

[SonnyD]

The real question is, if your league already awards individual TD's as well as DEF/ST for a special teams TD (kickoff or punt return), should Edelman's TD be honored?

In other words, our scoring settings are set up so that if Percy Harvin returns a kickoff for a TD, the Vikings DEF/ST would get 6 points and Harvin would also get 6 points.

And in this scenario, would this be considered making a rule change or correcting what perhaps wasn't properly set up (scoring setting) to begin with.

As to the bolded, I'm not sure if it's possible to properly set up a rule for this type of touchdown. Most websites don't have a scoring category that matches what Edelman did.

We play fleaflicker and the administrators there pointed out how to account for this. In the defense section, I needed to assign defensive TD to "ALL" for Edelman to get credit for his TD. Currently it is only set up as "TM" for team defense. In every other scoring category in our league our scoring is set to "ALL". Unfortunately when I set up the scoring I didn't set the defense TD to "ALL" because I thought that had something to do with IDP. So I left it alone at "TM".

Hence the huge turmoil in our league.

 

[Joe Summer]

The real question is, if your league already awards individual TD's as well as DEF/ST for a special teams TD (kickoff or punt return), should Edelman's TD be honored?

In other words, our scoring settings are set up so that if Percy Harvin returns a kickoff for a TD, the Vikings DEF/ST would get 6 points and Harvin would also get 6 points.

And in this scenario, would this be considered making a rule change or correcting what perhaps wasn't properly set up (scoring setting) to begin with.

As to the bolded, I'm not sure if it's possible to properly set up a rule for this type of touchdown. Most websites don't have a scoring category that matches what Edelman did.

We play fleaflicker and the administrators there pointed out how to account for this. In the defense section, I needed to assign defensive TD to "ALL" for Edelman to get credit for his TD. Currently it is only set up as "TM" for team defense.

That doesn't seem like an ideal solution to me. What if you want to credit players for Special Teams TDs but not for standard Defensive TDs?

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

A fumble recovery TD is a defensive TD.

Not every time.Offensive player recovers his own fumble = NOT a defensive TDOffensive player recovers teammate's fumble = NOT a defensive TDOffensive player recovers fumbled interception = NOT a defensive TD

In the context of the comment, I was referring specifically to this fumble recovery and the OP's league's framework. Obviously if an offensive player recovers his own fumble it's not treated as a defensive TD, etc.; I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

You can also make an argument that recovery TDs on Special Teams plays are not technically "defensive" TDs.

It's fake football, you can make an argument to score it any way you want. But you have to set that up ahead of time. If for some reason you want to score fumble recoveries while defending a kickoff differently than other defensive fumble recoveries, that's fine, but you've got to spell that out. If your rules don't indicate that there's a difference, then there isn't one. If I award 4 pts for passing TDs, and a RB throws a TD pass, it wouldn't make sense to argue that my rules are "silent" on TD passes by RBs. I have a rule to score passing TDs, and I would apply that rule. If for some reason I want to set up different scoring for RB passing TDs, then I'd do that in the offseason, not introduce it in week 12. Now if OP said: "Guys, I screwed up. Our league rulebook states that individuals on the kickoff team should receive points if they recover a fumble while defending a kickoff and return it for a TD, because it's not 'technically' a defensive TD. However, I set it up wrong on the league website and Edelman didn't get the points he was supposed to get per our league rules." Then that's something different. But that doesn't appear to be what happened here. Clearly from the league vote he just took, most of the owners in OP's league were not under the assumption that Edelman should get the points for it individually (I wouldn't make that assumption, either, unless the rules specifically indicated otherwise).