Eli Manning, Retired and the HoF Debate (1 Viewer)

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

Of the handful of two-time SB winners, only one who has won two is NOT in the HOF.  

This is my trigger.

Guy rose above poverty and his two blind parents struggling to make ends meet, had his college career nearly derailed by a thyroid issue, had to prove himself to even be a QB, then proceeded to smash passing, TD, and total offense records and introducing pro-style offense to the Pac 8 forever, goes on to be Heisman winner (over Theisman and Eli's dad), goes 1st pick overall in the draft, AFC ROY, Comeback Player of the year, wins two SBs, one SB MVP. An extraordinary story and career.

And it's Eli that will get into the HOF.

I say they both should be in. I definitely see and understand the arguments why they shouldn't, but the tie should go to the multiple SB winners, IMHO.

 

[rockaction]

This is my trigger.

Guy rose above poverty and his two blind parents struggling to make ends meet, had his college career nearly derailed by a thyroid issue, had to prove himself to even be a QB, then proceeded to smash passing, TD, and total offense records and introducing pro-style offense to the Pac 8 forever, goes on to be Heisman winner (over Theisman and Eli's dad), goes 1st pick overall in the draft, AFC ROY, Comeback Player of the year, wins two SBs, one SB MVP. An extraordinary story and career.

And it's Eli that will get into the HOF.

I say they both should be in. I definitely see and understand the arguments why they shouldn't, but the tie should go to the multiple SB winners, IMHO.

I grew up a Jets/Giants/Raiders fan. I sort of didn't know you could only root for one. Jim Plunkett is a great story, and those Raiders teams were part of my childhood. Excellent stuff.

 

[Insein]

McNabb will never sniff the HOF imo. He was very good for a long time (though he had his flaws), didn't win a SB, and played at the same time as a bunch of all-time greats who are without question HOFers ahead of him. I don't think you could make an argument that he was even a top-5 QB during his career compared to all the historically good guys he happened to be stuck competing against. 

I'd disagree with that. There was a period from 02-05 that I'd say he was a top 5 QB in the league. Had he won that super bowl, I'd say he'd be a lock. Not first ballot but he'd get in eventually. No super bowl and he's got no shot.

 

[Insein]

This is my trigger.

Guy rose above poverty and his two blind parents struggling to make ends meet, had his college career nearly derailed by a thyroid issue, had to prove himself to even be a QB, then proceeded to smash passing, TD, and total offense records and introducing pro-style offense to the Pac 8 forever, goes on to be Heisman winner (over Theisman and Eli's dad), goes 1st pick overall in the draft, AFC ROY, Comeback Player of the year, wins two SBs, one SB MVP. An extraordinary story and career.

And it's Eli that will get into the HOF.

I say they both should be in. I definitely see and understand the arguments why they shouldn't, but the tie should go to the multiple SB winners, IMHO.

It's an embarrassment that Plunkett hasn't made it in by now. 

 

[Smack Tripper]

 In one of those games he had three turnovers including two terrible fumbles. The defense sacked Brady five times and held them to one touchdown. One of those two things was far more important in that single game out of 232.

Under 2 minutes to go, he drove the field to keep the pats from an undefeated season the acknowledgment as the greatest team of all time.  If you think a head case like Rivers is gonna do that, keep thinking.   He has two rings as a starting QB.  Its a short list of guys who've done that, shorter still guys that won two Super Bowl MVPs

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Under 2 minutes to go, he drove the field to keep the pats from an undefeated season the acknowledgment as the greatest team of all time.  If you think a head case like Rivers is gonna do that, keep thinking.   He has two rings as a starting QB.  Its a short list of guys who've done that, shorter still guys that won two Super Bowl MVPs

When did I ever mention Rivers? Quality straw-man right here. 

 

[Deamon]

Maybe the Giants feel he's a distraction now and will set him free via trade/release.  So many humorous storylines:

- Denver needs a backup QB.  Imagine Eli following in his Brothers footsteps and ending up in Denver?!

- Jets could use anything right now.  Eli wouldn't even have to move or swap stadiums.  Would be hilarious.

- Jacksonville could use a new backup while Foles is out.  Reunited with Coughlin would be cool.

- Saints lose their starter and are a contender which I'm sure he would waive his no-trade clause for.  Would he be any worse than Teddy Bridgewater???  Yes.  Yes he would.

- Miami would take just about anyone, and maybe they could get Eli and a 6th for a 7th.   Miami gets a free pick, and we get to watch Eli's shocked weird facial expressions when Parker drops his 15 yard wobbler.

C'mon Giants.... Free Eli!!!! 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Because that selected quote only told part of his career. Two plays don’t a career make. 

By all means, please use a larger sample size to defend Eli. You have 230 other games to choose from. 

I wasn’t defending Eli. I was correcting your incorrect statement  Do you really think the pass to Manningham was a bad pass where a great catch bailed him out?

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Have any of you pro Eli to the HOF guys mentioned his impressive turnover numbers?

I like Eli Manning the person, not the player. 

 

[Anarchy99]

To further my comments that regular season Eli should not be a HOFer, here's what the numbers show. The numbers I am listing for Eli are essentially the passing numbers for the Giants offense in the time frame Eli played. The passing yardage totals are adjusted . . . meaning yardage lost on sacks has been taken out of the passing yardage totals. Over the span of Eli's career, I calculated the team totals for an average team's passing totals. Let me repeat that last part . . . the numbers used as a basis comparison are the LEAGUE AVERAGE compiled since 2004. Note that the totals listed for Eli are the numbers for the entire NYG passes . . . and Eli did not throw every pass in that time. That would explain why the numbers don't add up exactly to Eli's career totals.

NYG: 4980 completions
NFL: 4884 completions
TOTAL: +2% above average

NYG: 8242 attempts
NFL: 7942 attempts
TOTAL: +3.8% above average

NYG: 60.4% completion %
NFL: 61.5% completion %
TOTAL: -1.8% below average (listed as a percentage under average)

NYG: 55011 adjusted passing yards
NFL: 49694 adjusted passing yards
TOTAL: +10.6% above average

NYG: 369 passing TD
NFL: 345 passing TD
TOTAL: +7.0%

NYG: 243 interceptions
NFL: 219 interceptions
TOTAL: +11.0%

NYG: 395 total turnovers
NFL: 369 total turnovers
TOTAL: +7.0%

NYG: 82.9 adjusted passer rating
NFL: 82.4 adjusted passer rating
TOTAL: +0.6% above average

NYG: 116-116 record
NFL: 116-116 record
TOTAL: 0% difference

That's the tale of the tape comparing the Giants offense / passing numbers to THE LEAGUE AVERAGE TEAM. A little bit above league average in passing yardage and passing TD. Below average in terms of turnovers. I don't have the time or the energy to compare the team numbers of teams led by the Brady's, Roethlisberger's, Peyton's, and Bree's of the world . . . but I would project them to be light years ahead of the Giants totals vs. the rest of the league.

That being said, Eli's getting in the Hall. It's not the Hall of Statistics, and beating NE twice in the SB is pretty much all he needed on his resume to get in. 
 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Absurd.  Guy walked beat Brady's Patriots coming from behind in the 4th quarter, walked into Lambeau and beat Favre in 0 degree weather.  These things don't happen by chance 

Yes they do.  When you have a long career and play enough games, the law of large numbers implies that you will have a few flukey games just by pure chance.  

 

[Dr. Octopus]

All of this arguing is useless - he's getting in because he is a 2 time Super Bowl MVP, is a Manning, played in New York, and showed tremendous durability and longevity.

Of course many will not like it, but it's going to happen no matter how many internet nerds argue that he shouldn't get in. He has been an important part of NFL history, so if his stats bother you that much, just accept that part and move on. 

 

[Faust]

The Giants’ Complex Decision to Bench Eli Manning

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I wasn’t defending Eli. I was correcting your incorrect statement  Do you really think the pass to Manningham was a bad pass where a great catch bailed him out?

It was better than the 3-flies up and a prayer lob on the Tyree helmet catch, but it was hardly a perfect pass.

It still took a spectacular catch to make the play. That’s why when you look it up all the links say, “Manningham Spectacular Catch” and not “Eli manning’s Brilliant Throw!” - it was thrown into double coverage. 

so ok, my bad - he threw 1 lucky prayer of a pass to tyree, and one decent pass into double coverage that his receiver bailed him out on. 

He was still largely terrible that game.

Accurate enough? 

 

[Anarchy99]

All of this arguing is useless - he's getting in because he is a 2 time Super Bowl MVP, is a Manning, played in New York, and showed tremendous durability and longevity.

Of course many will not like it, but it's going to happen no matter how many internet nerds argue that he shouldn't get in. He has been an important part of NFL history, so if his stats bother you that much, just accept that part and move on. 

I can't speak for everyone, but I think most of us are aware that he's going to get in. But that doesn't change the debate as to if he really should be. Does Eli really stand out among his peers, which include his brother, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger, Favre, Warner, Rodgers, Rivers, and Ryan? Wilson and Mahomes will likely end up having great careers that slightly overlapped Eli (although they should probably fall in the next wave of great QB's). Excluding those two, Eli might rank 10th on the list I just mentioned. That's a lot of QB's to come from roughly the same era to make the HOF.

Looking back over recent decades, there were 13 HOF QB's that played at least 1 game in the 70's. 10 HOF QB's that played at least one game in the 80's. 9 QB's (so far) that played at least 1 game in the 90's. 4 QB's that played at least 1 game in the 00's (Warner, Favre, Aikman, and Moon), and 1 QB that has been inducted that played in the 2010's (Favre).

Since Eli is getting in, that probably means the list of HOF QB's that played at least 1 game in the 00's will probably include (eventually):

Brett Favre
Kurt Warner
Troy Aikman
Warren Moon
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Drew Brees
Ben Roethlisberger
Eli Manning
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Philip Rivers

That's 12 guys. And before people poo-poo the inclusion of Ryan, he's had the most passing yards and third most passing TD's through his first 10 seasons in league history. People may also question the inclusion of Rivers, but he is the polar opposite of Eli. Great regular season numbers and invisible post season numbers. Rivers' career YPA is the highest of any active QB not named Wilson (and 6th all time for QB's with at least 20,000 passing yards). That likely covers the HOF QB's from 2000-2009 . . . unless people want to try to make lukewarm arguments for guys like McNabb, Stafford, Bledsoe, Collins, or Romo (all of which don't seem like great options and will likely get shot down in flames).

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

NYG: 55011 adjusted passing yards
NFL: 49694 adjusted passing yards
TOTAL: +10.6% above average

It would be interesting to see how much of that is YAC, but not really critical to the discussion. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

All of this arguing is useless - he's getting in because he is a 2 time Super Bowl MVP, is a Manning, played in New York, and showed tremendous durability and longevity.

Of course many will not like it, but it's going to happen no matter how many internet nerds argue that he shouldn't get in. He has been an important part of NFL history, so if his stats bother you that much, just accept that part and move on. 

This is a fair post. 

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Yes they do.  When you have a long career and play enough games, the law of large numbers implies that you will have a few flukey games just by pure chance.  

I don't think that's really what the law of large numbers means but whatever.  But it's an achievement in and of itself to have as long a career and play as many games as Eli has, and your baseline level of talent has to be pretty high to, on more than one occasion, beat arguably the greatest QB of all time on the biggest stage in football just by pure chance.  If all it took to occasionally win a couple of fluky Super Bowls is "play enough games" lots of people would do it.  The reality is very few ever have, and Eli's among them.  He'll get into the Hall for that reason alone.  

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Drew Brees
Ben Roethlisberger
Eli Manning
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Philip Rivers

I crossed off the top 4 on that list as they're not really from Eli's "generation" of QBs.  The rest here are Eli's peers.  It's not crazy that there will be 8 QBs from this generation inducted into the HOF.  You can argue he's the worst of these 8 but if the other 7 all get in the Hall, Eli is too. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I don't think that's really what the law of large numbers means but whatever.  But it's an achievement in and of itself to have as long a career and play as many games as Eli has, and your baseline level of talent has to be pretty high to, on more than one occasion, beat arguably the greatest QB of all time on the biggest stage in football just by pure chance.  If all it took to occasionally win a couple of fluky Super Bowls is "play enough games" lots of people would do it.  The reality is very few ever have, and Eli's among them.  He'll get into the Hall for that reason alone.  

He didn’t “beat the greatest QB of all time”. That is a fallacy-ridden narrative to paint.

If anything can be said in a team sport, you could maybe, possibly say he “beat” the Patriots defense.

or you could say his WRs did when they bailed him out. 

Or his OC “beat” the Pats defense by calling plays that Eli didn’t bungle with a turnover for a 4th or 5th time that game. 

If anyone “beat” Tom Brady, it was the Giants stifling defense holding him to 1 TD while sacking him 5x. 

Last I checked it wasn’t a skills competition with Brady & Eli throwing into holes/nets from various distances while both teams watched from the sidelines. 

Y’all Eli supporters really need to stop banging this drum, because it’s nonsensical. 

 

[Anarchy99]

This is a fair post. 

I am almost hoping that DEN goes on a run and somehow wins another Super Bowl based on the strength of their defense and Flacco would then have two SB titles just like Eli. If Flacco starts this year and next, he would likely end up in the Top 15 in passing yards and Top 20 in passing TD by the time he retired. IIRC, he's won the most road playoff games of any NFL QB, won a title and had 11 TD passes with 0 INT that post season, has a 10-5 playoff record, and has a career .582 winning%. Clearly that's an imaginary scenario that likely will not come to fruition . . . but that would then set up a very similar situation to that of Eli's. We all know Eli will get in. But very few would say Flacco would deserve to get in.

 

[Anarchy99]

I crossed off the top 4 on that list as they're not really from Eli's "generation" of QBs.  The rest here are Eli's peers.  It's not crazy that there will be 8 QBs from this generation inducted into the HOF.  You can argue he's the worst of these 8 but if the other 7 all get in the Hall, Eli is too. 

There's no great way to define what qualifies as players in the same era. Favre and Eli had 7 seasons that overlapped. Wilson has 7 or 8 seasons that overlap with Eli. IMO, both of those guys could be argued to be peers or in the same era as Eli.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I crossed off the top 4 on that list as they're not really from Eli's "generation" of QBs.  The rest here are Eli's peers.  It's not crazy that there will be 8 QBs from this generation inducted into the HOF.  You can argue he's the worst of these 8 but if the other 7 all get in the Hall, Eli is too. 

Wut

Brady: 2000-2019

Roethlisburger: 2004-2019

Brees: 2001-2019

Eli:  2004-2019

 

[Anarchy99]

Wut

Brady: 2000-2019

Roethlisburger: 2004-2019

Brees: 2001-2019

Eli:  2004-2019

Not the Top 4 of his list . . . the Top 4 of my list (Warner, Favre, Aikman, and Moon). Warner and Eli played in 6 seasons together. Is that enough to call them in the same era? Who knows?

 

[Faust]

Eli Manning's legacy through the eyes of those who know him best

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

He didn’t “beat the greatest QB of all time”. That is a fallacy-ridden narrative to paint.

It has long been the case that QBs get a disproportionate amount of credit for their team's successes and blame for their team's failures.  It will likely continue to be true for a long time.  That's not unique to Eli, that's just NFL fandom.  Super Bowl wins are an important QB stat, for better or worse.  Dramatic last-second Super Bowl wins against 18-0 teams, even more so.   

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Not the Top 4 of his list . . . the Top 4 of my list (Warner, Favre, Aikman, and Moon). Warner and Eli played in 6 seasons together. Is that enough to call them in the same era? Who knows?

Ah. I’d say a 5-7 year overlap is a yes. But “era” is a bit loosely defined. 

Typically when comparing players across periods of time, one would look at the style of the game. Like the “live ball era” in baseball vs the “dead ball era”. Those players span decades but can be fairly compared because they all played with similar parameters. 

NFL has a few eras in that regard. The “vertical game” era, and more recently the “push out rule” era. IMO for QBs that’s a big one - I wouldn’t compare Marino to Favre, because heaps of Marino’s yards wouldn’t count in today's game. But I would compare Favre to Wentz (and announcers frequently do) because they both play in the same/similar rules system. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Eli Manning's legacy through the eyes of those who know him best

Get ready for a million puff pieces pumping him up as a HOFer & downplaying his benching for being awful. 

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

There's no great way to define what qualifies as players in the same era. Favre and Eli had 7 seasons that overlapped. Wilson has 7 or 8 seasons that overlap with Eli. IMO, both of those guys could be argued to be peers or in the same era as Eli.

Sure, agreed it's a bit of a squishy definition.  Favre just "feels" like he belongs to the era before Eli, and similarly Wilson is from the generation after.  Eli overlaps with a lot of QBs because he's had a long career, but Favre's prime was before Eli was in the league, and Eli had won 2 Super Bowls before Wilson entered the league.  

 

[rockaction]

Sure, agreed it's a bit of a squishy definition.  Favre just "feels" like he belongs to the era before Eli, and similarly Wilson is from the generation after.  Eli overlaps with a lot of QBs because he's had a long career, but Favre's prime was before Eli was in the league, and Eli had won 2 Super Bowls before Wilson entered the league.  

I see it this exact way, too.

 

[yoman]

Not the Top 4 of his list . . . the Top 4 of my list (Warner, Favre, Aikman, and Moon). Warner and Eli played in 6 seasons together. Is that enough to call them in the same era? Who knows?

I made a list too and didn't go back as far but I think those names are fair and I also included Russell Wilson on the list. I think when all is said and done he might be knocking on the door to the hall of fame too.  I think Rivers is the only questionable name that I added but think he would have won Superbowls with the Giants. I was the one who mentioned him not Hot Sauce Guy.  Other than racking up fantasy points I don't think all the quarterbacks deserve to get in. I wouldn't put Rivers in from my list below and Ryan is questionable but I think he has had a better overall more consistent career than Manning but you can't take away the 2 Superbowl wins which Ryan doesn't have. 

Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Dree Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger, Russell Wilson, Matt Ryan, or Philip Rivers

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

It has long been the case that QBs get a disproportionate amount of credit for their team's successes and blame for their team's failures. 

According to whom? 

QBs get blamed when they choke. Had Tyree not made that ridiculous helmet catch, all anyone would have talked about the next day was Eli’s horrific ball security. 

And deservedly so. 

But Eli completed that drive, and yes - got some credit for the win. But it was a team effort & the giants defense got plenty of love for it. They were hardly forgotten in the post-game glow. 

And regardless of any of this, it was one game in a completely average career. And if you look past the 1 drive in that 1 game, Eli was pretty below average. 

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Not the Top 4 of his list . . . the Top 4 of my list (Warner, Favre, Aikman, and Moon). Warner and Eli played in 6 seasons together. Is that enough to call them in the same era? Who knows?

Warner's a weird one.  His career had two relatively short but big peaks, he was great for a couple years before Eli came into the league... then at age 33 lost his job to rookie Eli amid a period of mediocrity... then was great again a couple years later in Arizona.  I guess you can put him in Eli's generation, I wouldn't really argue against it.

 

[Anarchy99]

It has long been the case that QBs get a disproportionate amount of credit for their team's successes and blame for their team's failures.  It will likely continue to be true for a long time.  That's not unique to Eli, that's just NFL fandom.  Super Bowl wins are an important QB stat, for better or worse.  Dramatic last-second Super Bowl wins against 18-0 teams, even more so.   

Water is wet. QB's will always get way too much credit for being on a winning team and take too much heat for not winning. IMO, the perfect example is Eli and Rivers. In all of these debates, the post season seems to count 75% and regular season numbers tend to count about 25%. Using those ratios, Eli looks like a lock HOFer and Rivers may not even look borderline.

Another good example is Brady. IIRC, in the Patriots Super Bowls, NE held the lead in the final minute or at the end of the game in 8 of them and was a possession away from tying the game against PHI. Obviously in two of those games the Giants scored late and won. But the outcomes in most of these games could have swung either way. How would the Brady narrative change if the Patriots had gone 2-7 in Super Bowls? Their win against SEA swung with Brady on the sideline. But yet he is the one that gets credit for winning the game. Probably Brady's best performance across an entire SB was his game against the Eagles. Certainly not his fault the defense for NE was putrid. But he gets an L in the loss column. That's just how it goes.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Sure, agreed it's a bit of a squishy definition.  Favre just "feels" like he belongs to the era before Eli, and similarly Wilson is from the generation after.  Eli overlaps with a lot of QBs because he's had a long career, but Favre's prime was before Eli was in the league, and Eli had won 2 Super Bowls before Wilson entered the league.  

 He played in the same era of football though. Overlap of years is largely irrelevant 

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

According to whom? 

...everyone?  Are you saying it's not true that "QBs get a disproportionate amount of credit for their team's successes and blame for their team's failures?"  I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's reality. 

 

[Anarchy99]

Warner's a weird one.  His career had two relatively short but big peaks, he was great for a couple years before Eli came into the league... then at age 33 lost his job to rookie Eli amid a period of mediocrity... then was great again a couple years later in Arizona.  I guess you can put him in Eli's generation, I wouldn't really argue against it.

Warner is one that his post season numbers are off the charts. He averaged over 300 yards per game passing with almost a 103 QB rating in the playoffs. He doesn't seem to pass the high career totals sniff test, but clearly his time with the Greatest Show on Turf and then taking the lowly Cardinals to the SB was enough to get him in. Plus his backstory is a Disney feel good movie in the making.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I wouldn't put Rivers in from my list below and Ryan is questionable but I think he has had a better overall more consistent career than Manning but you can't take away the 2 Superbowl wins which Ryan doesn't have. 

Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Dree Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger, Russell Wilson, Matt Ryan, or Philip Rivers

Roethlisberger is an interesting example of why 2 SB wins shouldn’t equate to easy HOF entry.

In each of those wins there was a highly questionable penalty call / non call.

1. Darryl Jackson phantom push-off negates obvious TD. Steelers win. 

2. Missed call on obvious illegal block in the back. Steelers TD, Steelers win. 

Big Ben got 2 rings for that. Sure, he played in those games and didn’t play badly.

but to point to those two games and say “yep, he’s a lock for the Hall” sounds ridiculous in context.’

 

[Anarchy99]

Roethlisberger is an interesting example of why 2 SB wins shouldn’t equate to easy HOF entry.

In each of those wins there was a highly questionable penalty call / non call.

1. Darryl Jackson phantom push-off negates obvious TD. Steelers win. 

2. Missed call on obvious illegal block in the back. Steelers TD, Steelers win. 

Big Ben got 2 rings for that. Sure, he played in those games and didn’t play badly.

but to point to those two games and say “yep, he’s a lock for the Hall” sounds ridiculous in context.’

In the end, how you win or how poorly you played really doesn't carry a lot of weight. Bottom line, the Steelers won twice with Big Ben. Technically that is across a 19 or 20 game season, not just 3 or 4 in the post season. But as we have been discussing today, people like a winner. People will remember Ben won twice. They won't remember and many won't care about the specifics and details. They certainly should, but they won't.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

It was better than the 3-flies up and a prayer lob on the Tyree helmet catch, but it was hardly a perfect pass.

It still took a spectacular catch to make the play. That’s why when you look it up all the links say, “Manningham Spectacular Catch” and not “Eli manning’s Brilliant Throw!” - it was thrown into double coverage. 

You have this totally wrong - even during the game Collinsworth kept gushing about the pass. It's considered on of the greatest throws in the SuperBowl. Its was thrown perfectly to the sideline where only Mario could have got it.

I'll move along though. Not worth discussing.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

...everyone?  Are you saying it's not true that "QBs get a disproportionate amount of credit for their team's successes and blame for their team's failures?"  I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's reality. 

I’d like to think in the context of this discussion we’re all capable of better than group-think analysis though.

so if we’re debating Eli’s worthiness, we might want to avoid the canned narrative argumentum ad populum stuff. 

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

 He played in the same era of football though. Overlap of years is largely irrelevant 

For me Favre is at least as much of the Troy Aikman - Steve Young generation than he is of Eli's.  Obviously a subjective thing, and complicated by the fact that Favre played forever, but when Favre was in his prime Eli Manning was like 14 years old.  But whatever, it's a silly tangent. 

Edit: As a corollary, I propose that if you potentially grew up with a poster of a QB on your wall, you're not from the same generation as that QB.  (And before you give me counterexamples, I just came up with this, it's not well-defined and am not sure it holds up to scrutiny.)

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Warner is one that his post season numbers are off the charts. He averaged over 300 yards per game passing with almost a 103 QB rating in the playoffs. He doesn't seem to pass the high career totals sniff test, but clearly his time with the Greatest Show on Turf and then taking the lowly Cardinals to the SB was enough to get him in. Plus his backstory is a Disney feel good movie in the making.

Warner is an interesting one. His “grocery bagger to super bowl winner” story definitely looms larger than his career. He had this Everyman thing about him. And he’s such a nice guy. 

He also stepped into Trent Green’s Porsche & hit the gas, when madman Martz schtick still worked. Easy to look good with Tory Holt, Isaac Bruce & Marshall Faulk around you. 

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

I’d like to think in the context of this discussion we’re all capable of better than group-think analysis though.

so if we’re debating Eli’s worthiness, we might want to avoid the canned narrative argumentum ad populum stuff. 

We don't have HOF votes though, so it doesn't really matter whether we think he's worthy. 

 

[Anarchy99]

You have this totally wrong - even during the game Collinsworth kept gushing about the pass. It's considered on of the greatest throws in the SuperBowl. Its was thrown perfectly to the sideline where only Mario could have got it.

I'll move along though. Not worth discussing.

Certainly it was a great throw. Into a very tight window. IMO, the Tyree catch was much more on the lucky side. Given the way they called things at the time, I thought Eli should have been called down for being in the grasp. But that's not how the refs saw it and the rest is history.

 

[rockaction]

Certainly it was a great throw. Into a very tight window. IMO, the Tyree catch was much more on the lucky side. Given the way they called things at the time, I thought Eli should have been called down for being in the grasp. But that's not how the refs saw it and the rest is history.

The Mario Manningham throw, I believe Collinsworth observed, was so good it was like Eli traveled fifty or sixty yards in the air and placed it in his hands and away from the defender. There's no doubt that was a great throw.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Certainly it was a great throw. Into a very tight window. IMO, the Tyree catch was much more on the lucky side. Given the way they called things at the time, I thought Eli should have been called down for being in the grasp. But that's not how the refs saw it and the rest is history.

He also chose to throw it into double coverage. If either DB got his head around it’s probably a 4th turnover & game over, Pats win. 

Agree about the Tyree play. He should have been called down, and when he wasn’t, it was a Hail Mary throw to a covered WR, and poorly thrown at that.  One of the most miraculous plays in NFL history for sure. That’s not the same as being a great play by Eli. But in a way, that play really does define him well if you go back to that coin flipping analogy made earlier. 

 

[dhockster]

Counterpoint: Eli Manning stinks.

He was a game manager who had the benefit of tremendous defenses & were it not for two unbelievably fortunate catches on really badly thrown balls (especially the Tyree helmet catch) he’d have 0 rings.

his only redeeming quality was longevity, and many would argue he should have stopped playing a few years ago. Statistically it’s hard to argue against that. 

Eli Manning over his career is a mediocre QB, with a .500 record (116-116) who had a 60% completion percentage & threw 241 interceptions in 232 games, averaging more than an Int/game. 

He lacked leadership, and after every terrible Interception he’d sulk on the sidelines, or shake his head in disgust as though it was the receivers fault or the OLs fault or anyone but his fault. His body language was always terrible. 

He was never 1st team all pro, nor did he lead the league in anything any year he played. Oh, wait - interceptions, 3 times

He was also careless with the football & fumbled 124 times. 

his season high was 35 TDs. And he threw 14 picks that year.

you can take his compiling stats & put lipstick all over that pig, but the fact is when he’s enshrined in Canton because of his family name, the HOF will be diminished for his inclusion. 

And he started his career with the ultimate b***h move of refusing to play for the team who drafted him demanding a trade, so when he’s ending his career I most certainly will not cut him any slack. He’s among the most overrated QBs of all time.

Discuss.

"Mr Gambini (Hot Sauce Guy), that is a lucid, well thought out, intelligent objection. OVERRULED!!"

No matter good an argument you make (and I think you make a good one), the Hall of Fame is still going to overrule you and put Manning in.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

He also chose to throw it into double coverage. If either DB got his head around it’s probably a 4th turnover & game over, Pats win. 

That ball was in a place neither DB could get to.  Go watch the video again - any other QB makes that throw and people would be creaming themselves over how perfectly placed it was.  But instead because it was Eli it was a bad throw because he "chose to throw it into double coverage?" C'mon man.  Credit where credit is due.  

 

[Dr. Octopus]

He also chose to throw it into double coverage. If either DB got his head around it’s probably a 4th turnover & game over, Pats win. 

He did not throw it into double coverage - the pass traveled so far in the air the safety got over there while it was in the air - and the defenders had ZERO chance to break it up because of the placement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cXqbqMgNoE