Elimination of 5 yard face mask penalty (1 Viewer)

[Avery]

Amongst the rule changes passed was the elimination of the 5 yard face mask penalty leaving only the 15 yard "personal foul" variety left for the refs to call.

I'm curious if the NFL has:

Stipulated what was previously called as a 5 yard face mask penalty now be call a 15 yard personal foul

or

Stipulated that the 5 yard face mask penalty simply not be called

or

Left it up to the refs to determine for themselves likely resulting in some face mask "touching" that would have previously been called for 5 yards called for 15 yards and some that would have been called for 5 yards not flagged at all.

 

[David Yudkin]

I believe the intent of the new rule was to only call twisting and/or pulled down by facemasks and the ticky-tack hand on the facemask calls will go away.

 

[twitch]

The 5 yarder was the occasion where the head wasnt typically snapped or turned. Just an incidental grab and the hand almost immediately is released. That type of grab of the mask will no longer be called. And I cant tell you how many times a drive is continued on 3rd down because of a BS incidental facemask call. So, as a result of the change, there will be slightly less drives continuing with help from the refs. Same as with that 'force out' rule. Both of those changes significantly favor the D. But I dont see a significantly greater # of 15yd facemask penalties. Just no more ticky tack 5yd calls.

 

[amnesiac]

seems to me defenders will become more careless with facemask contact if they are not worried about the 5 yard penalty, and more contact will lead to more 15 yard penalties even though the intent to pull the mask may not have been there.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I don't like this at all. It is clear that some face mask penalties are more harsh and deserve the 15 yard flag. But no matter how ticky tack a hand pulling on a face mask is it should still be considered a penalty and actually liked the 5 yard rule for the not so violent face mask incidents.

I mean no matter how ticky tack a holding of the jersey is it is still holding. Sure some face mask grabs are accidental but I don't like it just being avoided.

 

[Avery]

The 5 yarder was the occasion where the head wasnt typically snapped or turned. Just an incidental grab and the hand almost immediately is released. That type of grab of the mask will no longer be called. And I cant tell you how many times a drive is continued on 3rd down because of a BS incidental facemask call. So, as a result of the change, there will be slightly less drives continuing with help from the refs. Same as with that 'force out' rule. Both of those changes significantly favor the D. But I dont see a significantly greater # of 15yd facemask penalties. Just no more ticky tack 5yd calls.

The difference between a 5 yard penalty and a 15 yard penalty for a drive is obviously extreme. A 5 yard penalty could keep a drive going while a 15 yard penalty can create the drive.I hope it is called as you lay out, but I am (a bit) concerned that there will be cases where the refs would like to let the defensive player "off the hook" with a 5 yard penalty on obvious but "incidental face mask touching" but feel compelled to make a call for 15 yards for there is no lesser option.

 

[David Yudkin]

I don't like this at all. It is clear that some face mask penalties are more harsh and deserve the 15 yard flag. But no matter how ticky tack a hand pulling on a face mask is it should still be considered a penalty and actually liked the 5 yard rule for the not so violent face mask incidents. I mean no matter how ticky tack a holding of the jersey is it is still holding. Sure some face mask grabs are accidental but I don't like it just being avoided.

You answered your own complaint in your response. If someone pulls on a facemask, it's still a 15-yard penalty. The only thing going away is incidental contact in getting a hand on a facemask. If there is no pulling, no tugging, no tackling by the facemask it won't be a penalty.I agree with you, though, that the rule was fine the way it was. They had way bigger fish to fry than this one.

 

[SayWhat?]

Don't like this change one bit.

 

[twitch]

The 5 yarder was the occasion where the head wasnt typically snapped or turned. Just an incidental grab and the hand almost immediately is released. That type of grab of the mask will no longer be called. And I cant tell you how many times a drive is continued on 3rd down because of a BS incidental facemask call. So, as a result of the change, there will be slightly less drives continuing with help from the refs. Same as with that 'force out' rule. Both of those changes significantly favor the D. But I dont see a significantly greater # of 15yd facemask penalties. Just no more ticky tack 5yd calls.

The difference between a 5 yard penalty and a 15 yard penalty for a drive is obviously extreme. A 5 yard penalty could keep a drive going while a 15 yard penalty can create the drive.I hope it is called as you lay out, but I am (a bit) concerned that there will be cases where the refs would like to let the defensive player "off the hook" with a 5 yard penalty on obvious but "incidental face mask touching" but feel compelled to make a call for 15 yards for there is no lesser option.

Im with you. And I expect those kindof calls will happen. Im just not a big fan of this particular rule change either. I only hated the fact that the 5yd incidental call resulted in an automatic 1st down. But Im sure just like all new rules or rules changes in the league, it'll take a little time, but they'll figure it out.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I don't like this at all. It is clear that some face mask penalties are more harsh and deserve the 15 yard flag. But no matter how ticky tack a hand pulling on a face mask is it should still be considered a penalty and actually liked the 5 yard rule for the not so violent face mask incidents. I mean no matter how ticky tack a holding of the jersey is it is still holding. Sure some face mask grabs are accidental but I don't like it just being avoided.

You answered your own complaint in your response. If someone pulls on a facemask, it's still a 15-yard penalty. The only thing going away is incidental contact in getting a hand on a facemask. If there is no pulling, no tugging, no tackling by the facemask it won't be a penalty.I agree with you, though, that the rule was fine the way it was. They had way bigger fish to fry than this one.

Is that not the way it was last year? I saw a number of face mask penalties not called last year due to no grabbing. I agree that if a hand grazes a face mask it should not have been a 5 yard penalty but I still think that there is a difference in grabbing a face mask of the 5 vs 15 yard variety.

 

[Avery]

The 5 yarder was the occasion where the head wasnt typically snapped or turned. Just an incidental grab and the hand almost immediately is released. That type of grab of the mask will no longer be called. And I cant tell you how many times a drive is continued on 3rd down because of a BS incidental facemask call. So, as a result of the change, there will be slightly less drives continuing with help from the refs. Same as with that 'force out' rule. Both of those changes significantly favor the D. But I dont see a significantly greater # of 15yd facemask penalties. Just no more ticky tack 5yd calls.

The difference between a 5 yard penalty and a 15 yard penalty for a drive is obviously extreme. A 5 yard penalty could keep a drive going while a 15 yard penalty can create the drive.I hope it is called as you lay out, but I am (a bit) concerned that there will be cases where the refs would like to let the defensive player "off the hook" with a 5 yard penalty on obvious but "incidental face mask touching" but feel compelled to make a call for 15 yards for there is no lesser option.

Im with you. And I expect those kindof calls will happen. Im just not a big fan of this particular rule change either. I only hated the fact that the 5yd incidental call resulted in an automatic 1st down. But Im sure just like all new rules or rules changes in the league, it'll take a little time, but they'll figure it out.

Not that anyone in the NFL cares what I think, but I think elimination of the automatic first down with the penalty would have been a better change.Scale back the severity of the penalty, but leaves the refs an "out" for a lesser call.

 

[Nemesis]

I don't like this at all. It is clear that some face mask penalties are more harsh and deserve the 15 yard flag. But no matter how ticky tack a hand pulling on a face mask is it should still be considered a penalty and actually liked the 5 yard rule for the not so violent face mask incidents. I mean no matter how ticky tack a holding of the jersey is it is still holding. Sure some face mask grabs are accidental but I don't like it just being avoided.

If someone pulls on a facemask, it's still a 15-yard penalty. The only thing going away is incidental contact in getting a hand on a facemask. If there is no pulling, no tugging, no tackling by the facemask it won't be a penalty.I agree with you, though, that the rule was fine the way it was. They had way bigger fish to fry than this one.

How 'bout clarifying and start calling the obvious Offensive stiff-arm to the face(mask) of the defensive tackler. Everywhere else on the field, especially in the OL/DL trenches that is an automatic penalty.

 

[yesitsme]

Don't like this change one bit.

Let's give it a chance, will ya. You may end up liking it. If they grab the mask in an attempt to tackle, 15 yards. If it's an accident and the ref can tell it, it's let go. What's the problem? It works for me.

 

[David Yudkin]

I don't like this at all. It is clear that some face mask penalties are more harsh and deserve the 15 yard flag. But no matter how ticky tack a hand pulling on a face mask is it should still be considered a penalty and actually liked the 5 yard rule for the not so violent face mask incidents. I mean no matter how ticky tack a holding of the jersey is it is still holding. Sure some face mask grabs are accidental but I don't like it just being avoided.

If someone pulls on a facemask, it's still a 15-yard penalty. The only thing going away is incidental contact in getting a hand on a facemask. If there is no pulling, no tugging, no tackling by the facemask it won't be a penalty.I agree with you, though, that the rule was fine the way it was. They had way bigger fish to fry than this one.

How 'bout clarifying and start calling the obvious Offensive stiff-arm to the face(mask) of the defensive tackler. Everywhere else on the field, especially in the OL/DL trenches that is an automatic penalty.

Cause they don't consider it a penalty. A stiff arm is not the same as grabbing, twisting, or hauling down by the face mask. It's not technically illegal hands to the face for blocking or pass rushing either. So it's not a penalty as far as I can tell.

 

[Da Guru]

I thought it meant "hands to the facemask" Many times last year I saw o-lineman get flagger for hitting a guys face mask by accident with no intention of grabbing it.

 

[Jason Wood]

seems to me defenders will become more careless with facemask contact if they are not worried about the 5 yard penalty, and more contact will lead to more 15 yard penalties even though the intent to pull the mask may not have been there.

Ultimately I suspect it will be just the opposite. Defenders still have to fear the 15-yard variety, which is damning. And now there's less gray area. You can shrug off a 5-yard penalty particularly when it was this close to not being called; but a 15-yarder has always been blatant and they still will be.

 

[Ozymandias]

seems to me defenders will become more careless with facemask contact if they are not worried about the 5 yard penalty, and more contact will lead to more 15 yard penalties even though the intent to pull the mask may not have been there.

Ultimately I suspect it will be just the opposite. Defenders still have to fear the 15-yard variety, which is damning. And now there's less gray area. You can shrug off a 5-yard penalty particularly when it was this close to not being called; but a 15-yarder has always been blatant and they still will be.

Of course, many calls are judgment calls. But I would have preferred to have them keep the rule the way it was. Now the refs have to decide if they really penalize a team, with no "grey area". The previous rule gave them an out if it was questionable.

 

[Jason Wood]

seems to me defenders will become more careless with facemask contact if they are not worried about the 5 yard penalty, and more contact will lead to more 15 yard penalties even though the intent to pull the mask may not have been there.

Ultimately I suspect it will be just the opposite. Defenders still have to fear the 15-yard variety, which is damning. And now there's less gray area. You can shrug off a 5-yard penalty particularly when it was this close to not being called; but a 15-yarder has always been blatant and they still will be.

Of course, many calls are judgment calls. But I would have preferred to have them keep the rule the way it was. Now the refs have to decide if they really penalize a team, with no "grey area". The previous rule gave them an out if it was questionable.

I think the first year will see quite a bit of variance. I.e., some refs will call a lot more 15-yard penalties while others will let most of the 5-yarders now go uncalled completely. One of the things the NFL does well though is educate the refs on interpreting the rules consistently. It may be a bit off kilter in 2008, but once they have some film to study, I bet the refs start converging on a similar interpretation and, as a result, we have a net REDUCTION in penalties called in aggregate.

 

[Mr Capicollo]

The 5 yarder was the occasion where the head wasnt typically snapped or turned. Just an incidental grab and the hand almost immediately is released. That type of grab of the mask will no longer be called. And I cant tell you how many times a drive is continued on 3rd down because of a BS incidental facemask call. So, as a result of the change, there will be slightly less drives continuing with help from the refs. Same as with that 'force out' rule. Both of those changes significantly favor the D. But I dont see a significantly greater # of 15yd facemask penalties. Just no more ticky tack 5yd calls.

Please, do tell us more about this "football" you speak of.

 

[Koya]

I remember how happy (everyone?) was when they instituted the 5 yard infraction. FAR too often an incedental hand to the face ended up changing a drive and the game - and the 5 yarder was the solution.

It seems the NFL has forgotten that they put the rule there for a reason - because 15 or nothing simply did not work. It means some facemasks had to go uncalled, and others ended up far overpenalizing a team.

Oy.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

What will happen is the refs will always throw the flag when they see a hand on the facemask. The refs will call a quick pow-wow and more often than not they will stick with the yellow flag and the 15 yard penalty even when the replay will clearly show that the RB or WR's head never snapped around. So the result will be more points on the scoreboard, more booing from fans on erroneous judgement calls, a team here and there that misses the playoffs because they lost 1 extra game because of a bad call etc.

 

[jonessed]

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

Well from the very few preseason games I've been watching, basically any hand to the facemask is going to be 15 yards. Actually I'm now supporting this despite my earlier post from months ago (when I was assuming the rule was only going to be for "snap of the neck" only infractions.

Any hand to the facemask = 15 yards. Subjectiveness of the refs is removed. Rules simplified and rule change benefits offense.

Elimination of the pushout ruling (unless you catch a guy in the air and carry him out). Subjectiveness of the refs is removed. Rules are simplified. Benefit goes to the defense.

I see this as a nice offset of rules so offense/defense are balanced and making refs. calls less subjective and more black and white calling. Good job NFL owners/voters whomever.!!!!

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

what about blow to the head of a QB? they change that, cause it's pretty much garbage

 

[Ron_Mexico]

Don't like this change one bit.

I agree. It brings a big "grey area" into the equation.Most rule changes make sense, I'm still scratching my head with this one.

 

[Bossman]

Amongst the rule changes passed was the elimination of the 5 yard face mask penalty leaving only the 15 yard "personal foul" variety left for the refs to call.

I'm curious if the NFL has:

Stipulated what was previously called as a 5 yard face mask penalty now be call a 15 yard personal foul

or

Stipulated that the 5 yard face mask penalty simply not be called

or

Left it up to the refs to determine for themselves likely resulting in some face mask "touching" that would have previously been called for 5 yards called for 15 yards and some that would have been called for 5 yards not flagged at all.

I assumed it would be option "B" with the 5 yard type penalty simply not be called.... which I would be all in favor of. A hand on the facemask poses no injury threat like the grab and tug type. But I was wrong. In a preseason game I watched a player put his hand on an oposing players facemask. No grab, no pull. 15 yard penalty.

So I'm thinking maybe the ref thought he saw a tug, replay showed none, but whatever.

In Thurs nights WAS/NYG game a player waived his hand in front of an oposing players facemask. 15 yard penalty.

Dumb.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I absolutely hate that this rule was changed!

 

[amnesiac]

Well from the very few preseason games I've been watching, basically any hand to the facemask is going to be 15 yards. Actually I'm now supporting this despite my earlier post from months ago (when I was assuming the rule was only going to be for "snap of the neck" only infractions.

Any hand to the facemask = 15 yards. Subjectiveness of the refs is removed. Rules simplified and rule change benefits offense.

Elimination of the pushout ruling (unless you catch a guy in the air and carry him out). Subjectiveness of the refs is removed. Rules are simplified. Benefit goes to the defense.

I see this as a nice offset of rules so offense/defense are balanced and making refs. calls less subjective and more black and white calling. Good job NFL owners/voters whomever.!!!!

this kind of makes sense in a way.maybe they should've split the difference at 10 yards?

 

[treat88]

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

It was broke.I am obviously in the minority but I love this change. The incidental contact variety of facemasking carried far too great a penalty.If the guy does it with intent or if even incidentally it places another player at risk for injury, ring them up.With neither of those factors let it pass.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

It was broke.I am obviously in the minority but I love this change. The incidental contact variety of facemasking carried far too great a penalty.If the guy does it with intent or if even incidentally it places another player at risk for injury, ring them up.With neither of those factors let it pass.

The problem is will the refs know where to let one slilde or are we going to see to many ticky tack ones being called for 15 yarders?