Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Elizabeth Warren wants to cancel a gigantic portion of student loans (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter supermike80
- Start date
supermike80
Footballguy
Then why did you mention him, why not just say it was the industry? This isn't making sense.
timschochet
Footballguy
Because your outrage seems selective. I will repeat: we do not live in a libertarian society. We allocate trillions of taxpayer dollars already, and fairness is never a consideration. Why should it be in this case?
proteus126
Footballguy
So, we want to break faith with the lender - the American taxpayer - so that people who made a bad leverage decision regarding their education be provided the ability to make an even worse leverage decision regarding real estate. Because it will be good for us? Bold plan, Cotton.
supermike80
Footballguy
Ok my outrage seems selective? What in God's name is your point? I cant have an opinion on this if I don't post opinions on EVERYTHING ELSE? Give it a rest.
By the way, not outraged, I said right from the top I'm not sure how I feel---I am off the cuff against it--and I would like pros and cons. Your cons didn't convince me and I feel they are wrong...That's OK with you right? Or are you going to continue to point out how I feel or think, or my selective postings?
Last edited by a moderator:
supermike80
Footballguy
Good point. Hasn't it been proven over and over that risky credit leads to more risky credit? We buy their loans, and they take on a car loan, or a business loan, or a mortgate, and fail on that again cause heck...they got bailed out once...so why not again?
Those aren't fair. I would have no problem if Warren focused her efforts on eliminating government free stuff. But this type of pandering to win an election is borderline obscene.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Perhaps that’s what it is but the US is a top 15 country in per capita GDP and there are plenty of countries lower on the list that make this system work very well. My worry is that if she was elected and moved forward with such a plan that it would be like Obamacare where after all the lobbyists and cross-party compromises are made, it’s ends up something that nobody really wanted.
timschochet
Footballguy
About 100 years ago there was a debate in this country about forgiving the war debts of England, France and Germany. A guy named John Maynard Keynes came up with an extraordinary idea: we should just forgive what’s owed- it would allow their economies to recover and that would make us richer in the long run. The American public couldn’t understand his argument and the idea was nixed by Calvin Coolidge who thought it was nuts: “they hired the money, didn’t they?” Coolidge said. To Coolidge and the vast majority, you borrow money and you have to pay what’s owed. Simple.
Except that historians now almost all agree that had we forgiven those loans there would have been no Great Depression, no Third Reich, no World War II. Keynes was a man way ahead of his time, and he had a different way of looking at debt: not in terms of what is owed but in terms of what benefits society. Yet even today most people don’t seem to understand this idea.
Except that historians now almost all agree that had we forgiven those loans there would have been no Great Depression, no Third Reich, no World War II. Keynes was a man way ahead of his time, and he had a different way of looking at debt: not in terms of what is owed but in terms of what benefits society. Yet even today most people don’t seem to understand this idea.
timschochet
Footballguy
Lol every single thread you participate in ends up with this same post almost word for word.
supermike80
Footballguy
Are you writing a book or something. Can you PLEASE just focus on yourself? Why are you so concerned with what I post? Let it go lady, you're creeping me out now.
supermike80
Footballguy
Well then I'll take that theory and apply it to our debt...and say who cares how high it gets...we will just not pay it. Using that theory yeah, I think we should finance everyone;s college, or trade school and borrow to do it. Not like we are going to pay it back anyway.
proteus126
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I literally started to type up a response to that exact quote, but I got about three sentences in and decided "oh the hell with this."
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
I would agree that there shouldn't be a fairness litmus test. There are plenty of times governments should do things based on need that aren't necessarily fair to everyone.
However, one undeniable reason it should at least be a consideration is that it is important to the American people. If citizens feel the government is treating people unnecessarily unfairly, won't this be factored into how they vote?
Regarding your point about "regular people", I don't think that's true. People thought the bank bailouts were unfair. People think the Trump tax cuts unfairly benefited the rich. There are lots of examples.
You're mischaracterizing the vast majority of students who are in debt. Many are business majors, teachers, medical technologists, nurses and even future doctors whose debt is a burden on their future economic choices. How do you expect a teacher in Kansas or Miami to pay student loans and buy a home on a low salary?
This is from NCES:
Question:
What are the most popular majors for postsecondary students?
Response:
Of the 1,895,000 bachelor's degrees conferred in 2014–15, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of business (364,000), health professions and related programs (216,000), social sciences and history (167,000), psychology (118,000), biological and biomedical sciences (110,000), engineering (98,000), visual and performing arts (96,000), and education (92,000). At the master's degree level, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of business (185,000), education (147,000), and health professions and related programs (103,000). At the doctor's degree level, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of health professions and related programs (71,000), legal professions and studies (40,300), education (11,800), engineering (10,200), biological and biomedical sciences (8,100), psychology (6,600), and physical sciences and science technologies (5,800).
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
Good point, but........there were also reparations after WW2 and I think the end result was better than most people expected.
Maybe the key is to strike a balance between payment and punishment.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Last estimate I saw it would cost a little over 70 billion a year to just pay tuitions for everyone attending state college. We spend over 50 billion a year putting them in debt now. That debt then goes on to be a drag on our economy and hurt the working class. Which really seems like the better investment?
supermike80
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Post WW2 finances are complex. The West took reparations in the form of German intellectual property and and massive forced labor camps. The US also pumped large amounts of money into Europe and Asia to rebuild it. Much of it was paid back but probably at least half of it was forgiven and much of it was delayed for 30 or 40 years.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Person 1: Person goes to Tier B school that is cheaper because that's what they could afford. They make less money now than they could have if they had chosen a Tier A school. They have little to no debt though because they made a responsible decision.
Person 2: Person goes to Tier A school that costs a lot more than their Tier B choice. They rack up a ton of debt but now make more money because of their decision (won't call it irresponsible but less responsible?). They have a ton of debt.
Government wipes away the debt for Person 2 they are left in a great position. Debt free making a lot of money with a better degree. Person 1 stuck with a lesser degree, lower salary and nothing from the government. That's crap.
Person 2: Person goes to Tier A school that costs a lot more than their Tier B choice. They rack up a ton of debt but now make more money because of their decision (won't call it irresponsible but less responsible?). They have a ton of debt.
Government wipes away the debt for Person 2 they are left in a great position. Debt free making a lot of money with a better degree. Person 1 stuck with a lesser degree, lower salary and nothing from the government. That's crap.
No. I am not.
For every example you can find of an underpaid teacher in Miami doing good for society...I'm sure I can pull 10 of someone going to college, not picking a major until the middle of their junior year, eventually getting a liberal arts degree and then getting a job as a temp because they have no tangible skills.
supermike80
Footballguy
Person 3 goes to college...fails out because he partied to hard, gets employment at a smaller income level than he or she might have with a degree, and also gets his loans paidd for by the government.
This is only loan forgiveness once, then it becomes free education from the federal government.
NCCommish
Footballguy
And I can cite ten where someone got a STEM degree and now works in restaurants. I know more than a few well educated waitstaff. We can trade I know a guys all day.
supermike80
Footballguy
If they have a STEM Degree and work in a restaurant there is probably something else going on. And most likely their fault.
NCCommish
Footballguy
supermike80
Footballguy
Then they lost money on their education investment. Welcome to the real world. That's probably the best financial education they will get in their lives.
Last edited by a moderator:
NCCommish
Footballguy
No not really. The fields are very competitive. The fact is in many to make any money at all you need at least a master's, which means even more debt, and for the best a doctoral degree which put you six figures in debt. People get their BS find out it's not enough but don't want to go another 30-40k more in debt. So there you are.
NCCommish
Footballguy
And the guy who works construction just lost money. And the guy who builds furniture just lost money. Car manufacturers just lost money. This isn't one person got screwed. We are at the point the whole economy is getting screwed.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
People and businesses lose money all the time. It helps them do it right the next time.
It doesn't screw the economy. It is our economy.
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
Warren seems desperate to hang her hat on something to gain traction against the other Democrats.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Agree. Some kind of post secondary stipend is a better idea imo. Use it for school, job training, business investment, home, etc. Base it on a few economic factors.
SHIZNITTTT
Footballguy
I am as liberal as they come and I don't want free college for everyone. I don't want loan forgiveness for everyone.
Option 1. Go to a community college get a job save some money working ####ty hours so you can save up to get a better education later.
Option 2. Join the military and get the G.I. Bill
Option 3. Go to a trade school get a job save money and go back to college.
Option 4. Go into a profession that requires a degree and is in HIGH demand. Ask your potential future employer to pay your way through college for "x" years and you will work for them "x" years.
Option 5. Go to work out high school working suck ### jobs and save for college while still living at home. Save money go to college get job = winning.
With no "skin in the game" kids will be choosing degrees that have no future even more than they are today. Medieval and Renaissance Studies College Degrees we don't need. Thanks.
Option 1. Go to a community college get a job save some money working ####ty hours so you can save up to get a better education later.
Option 2. Join the military and get the G.I. Bill
Option 3. Go to a trade school get a job save money and go back to college.
Option 4. Go into a profession that requires a degree and is in HIGH demand. Ask your potential future employer to pay your way through college for "x" years and you will work for them "x" years.
Option 5. Go to work out high school working suck ### jobs and save for college while still living at home. Save money go to college get job = winning.
With no "skin in the game" kids will be choosing degrees that have no future even more than they are today. Medieval and Renaissance Studies College Degrees we don't need. Thanks.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
To be fair this has always been her thing. Her polices overlap with Bernie quite a bit. Her area of expertise is economic oversight, bankruptcy and “Main Street” finance.
supermike80
Footballguy
Then they are silly for getting the initial degree in the first place. this is exactly the problem. People take on things that they either didn't understand or didn't look into enough. If the job market is that tough and it takes that much education, then maybe find another career path instead of asking me to pay for their failed educational choice.
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
It’s been reparations, impeachment and now this. She sees the handwriting on the wall that her campaign is circling the drain and needs to get some attention fast.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
which means that will be passed straight down to the consumers through increases in good and services - nobody believes in free Warren, people are not fooled anymore by believing taxation isn't ultimately passed down to consumers
no, she means the PARENTS of the students ..... students rarely earn anything.
what is the incentives to excel in school anymore if everyone gets free college? why try for scholarships? what's to help drive these kids ?
they won't give $5 billion to border security, but she's asking for A MINIMUM 50 Billion for black skin only colleges?
that's racist - stop judging people on their skin color - for the love of God PLEASE STOP
NCCommish
Footballguy
No one is being judged. This is a way to give a hand up to people who need it. Which in turn will make them more successful, which will in turn make their kids more successful. Which in turn will make all of us more successful.
Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
The Commish
Footballguy
My PSA for this thread.....this last post by SC has been addressed ad nauseum in various other threads on this board. That he continues with it should tell you he's not listening to other perspectives....it's ok to move on.
As to the topic, it's unfortunate that we need to hit the "reset" button on education, but it seems we do. When we hit that button there is going to be some people who normally would be required to get out of their bad choices on their own that end up being bailed out. Hopefully there is something in the legislation that prevents it from being done again and accountability assigned moving forward. This isn't all that dissimilar from the financial "reset" in 2008 that was required. We did that for corporations and even put controls in place to minimize the chances of it happening again. Hopefully, they don't all get rolled back before 2020 allowing for that same toxic environment. I say that as any employee who's being sold to someone else as a direct result of those policies. Just because the industry doesn't like them doesn't mean they aren't good for them. Those regulations help minimize the possibility of a 2008 happening again. Hopefully Warren puts measures into her plan to help minimize the possibility of what's happening right now from happening again once things are reset.
As to the topic, it's unfortunate that we need to hit the "reset" button on education, but it seems we do. When we hit that button there is going to be some people who normally would be required to get out of their bad choices on their own that end up being bailed out. Hopefully there is something in the legislation that prevents it from being done again and accountability assigned moving forward. This isn't all that dissimilar from the financial "reset" in 2008 that was required. We did that for corporations and even put controls in place to minimize the chances of it happening again. Hopefully, they don't all get rolled back before 2020 allowing for that same toxic environment. I say that as any employee who's being sold to someone else as a direct result of those policies. Just because the industry doesn't like them doesn't mean they aren't good for them. Those regulations help minimize the possibility of a 2008 happening again. Hopefully Warren puts measures into her plan to help minimize the possibility of what's happening right now from happening again once things are reset.
supermike80
Footballguy
So what are you saying...One time wash all debts, install some sort of protections against it further, then go back to business as usual?
The Commish
Footballguy
SC refuses to acknowledge that we all don't start at the same place in life and thinks we all have the same obstacles to overcome in the race of life. It's not worth your time.NCCommish said:
supermike80
Footballguy
I think the point is fair however. Why only BLACK colleges......There are millions of non blacks who are facing HUGE obstacles..Do we just forget about them?
The Commish
Footballguy
Personally, I'd remove the special protections of student loans when it comes to filing bankruptcy and let the reconciliation happen that way. It requires the individual to make a decision to either figure out how to pay the loans or file bankruptcy to get out from under the loans. That way, they are "penalized" to some extent for washing their hands of their obligation. This special protection is a significant part of the problem.
If they don't do that what I would require to get on board with a simple forgiveness of debt is a measure that once reset, the rules change and we stick to the rules moving forward to prevent this sort of thing from happening again.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Was that Oscar Wilde or Olivia, I can never remember.NCCommish said:
