Elizabeth Warren wants to cancel a gigantic portion of student loans (2 Viewers)

[supermike80]

Personally, I'd remove the special protections of student loans when it comes to filing bankruptcy and let the reconciliation happen that way.  It requires the individual to make a decision to either figure out how to pay the loans or file bankruptcy to get out from under the loans.  That way, they are "penalized" to some extent for washing their hands of their obligation.  This special protection is a significant part of the problem.  

If they don't do that what I would require to get on board with a simple forgiveness of debt is a measure that once reset, the rules change and we stick to the rules moving forward to prevent this sort of thing from happening again.

Now I can 100% get behind the bankruptcy angle.....I agree completely

 

[Ilov80s]

Was that Oscar Wilde or Olivia, I can never remember.

Kim

 

[stlrams]

Another wrinkle to this plan, there are for-profit colleges/universities that target kids from poor households knowing full well that money coming from student loan programs and delinquent loans will be high.

 

[The Commish]

I think the point is fair however. Why only BLACK colleges......There are millions of non blacks who are facing HUGE obstacles..Do we just forget about them?

Almost all of us face huge obstacles at one point or another.  In terms of education it is incredibly well documented how disproportionate quality of education is for black students compared to their white counterparts.  This is a specific effort to help a specific group who are specifically held down earlier in the race.  That's why the focus.  In sports it's called a "make up call".  The reactions are pretty similar too.  One group has been getting call after call through the first quarter then get hit with a bad call early in the second and their lives are coming to an end.  They easily forget about all the calls to that point...it's about self awareness.

 

[Stealthycat]

This is a way to give a hand up to people who need it

and who are those people?  looking at skin color and judging

and I hate that, I really do

i'm for helping ANYONE that needs help, not just those who's skin color happens to be right

 

[supermike80]

Almost all of us face huge obstacles at one point or another.  In terms of education it is incredibly well documented how disproportionate quality of education is for black students compared to their white counterparts.  This is a specific effort to help a specific group who are specifically held down earlier in the race.  That's why the focus.  In sports it's called a "make up call".  The reactions are pretty similar too.  One group has been getting call after call through the first quarter then get hit with a bad call early in the second and their lives are coming to an end.  They easily forget about all the calls to that point...it's about self awareness.

Nope...Gonna disagree..Generally speaking I think the challenges are economic rather than based on race(yes race plays a part but I think economics are a larger factor).  A poor white or a poor asian kid has a significant disadvantage in this country.  Or a kid with drug addicted parents(this is increasing).  

But Liz only wants to help the black kids.   Thats racism..plain and simple.....

 

[GROOT]

This isn't addressing the real problem,  Government guaranteed student loans is the reason for student debt getting out of control. 

 

[Stealthycat]

My PSA for this thread.....this last post by SC has been addressed ad nauseum in various other threads on this board.  That he continues with it should tell you he's not listening to other perspectives....it's ok to move on

when skin color is used to judge people, it needs called what it is 

nothing is free - things need to be earned

kids need to be earn what they get through hard work and effort - not skin color, not free, and they don't need judged on their parents income either

 

[Stealthycat]

This isn't addressing the real problem,  Government guaranteed student loans is the reason for student debt getting out of control. 

yes, because its caused college tuition to soar over the last decade

if what Warren suggests come to pass, it'll cost $75,000 a year to go to what is now $20,000 a year college - 

 

[supermike80]

yes, because its caused college tuition to soar over the last decade

if what Warren suggests come to pass, it'll cost $75,000 a year to go to what is now $20,000 a year college - 

Doesn't matter what it costs, the government is going to pay for it.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Now I can 100% get behind the bankruptcy angle.....I agree completely

I've argued this before in other threads, but so many debtors would file bankruptcy it would "bankrupt" the student loan system.  The interest wouldn't pay for all the losses.  Maybe they could increase the interest rates for new loans.  But then you're having the people who end up paying subsidizing the defaulters.

It would also make it harder for those with student loans to get as favorable of terms on credit cards, auto loans, and other debts because that bankruptcy threat is heightened.

 

[The Commish]

Nope...Gonna disagree..Generally speaking I think the challenges are economic rather than based on race(yes race plays a part but I think economics are a larger factor).  A poor white or a poor asian kid has a significant disadvantage in this country.  Or a kid with drug addicted parents(this is increasing).  

But Liz only wants to help the black kids.   Thats racism..plain and simple.....

You can disagree...no skin off my back.  I'd encourage you to read the studies of the disadvantaged in this country to get an accurate gauge of what's going on here though.  You will find that the bold is absolutely true, compared to rich people.  When poor white/asian kids are compared to poor black children, poor black children still have it worse than those groups.  She wants to help those that are the most oppressed.  

Of course, whether you know it or not, you're making an argument for extending government funded education from high school to college.  I'm ok with that too.  I think our government needs to do everything it can to prepare individuals for competition in this global workforce we are participating in.

 

[supermike80]

I've argued this before in other threads, but so many debtors would file bankruptcy it would "bankrupt" the student loan system.  The interest wouldn't pay for all the losses.  Maybe they could increase the interest rates for new loans.  But then you're having the people who end up paying subsidizing the defaulters.

It would also make it harder for those with student loans to get as favorable of terms on credit cards, auto loans, and other debts because that bankruptcy threat is heightened.

True...Good points there.  There is always another side

 

[Hawkeye21]

No. I am not.

For every example you can find of an underpaid teacher in Miami doing good for society...I'm sure I can pull 10 of someone going to college, not picking a major until the middle of their junior year, eventually getting a liberal arts degree and then getting a job as a temp because they have no tangible skills.

There are so many different stories of how people have gotten where they are.  I went to a two year college for liberal arts because I didn't know what I wanted to do.  I then went back to the same two year college and got a degree in landscaping.  I did landscaping for two years before I realized that's not what I wanted to do the rest of my life.  Now I'm part owner of a business and doing much better than I would have if still doing landscaping.

Let's not paint with too broad of a brush here.

 

[The Commish]

if what Warren suggests come to pass, it'll cost $75,000 a year to go to what is now $20,000 a year college

Do you have a link to back this up or are you just making #### up again?

 

[supermike80]

You can disagree...no skin off my back.  I'd encourage you to read the studies of the disadvantaged in this country to get an accurate gauge of what's going on here though.  You will find that the bold is absolutely true, compared to rich people.  When poor white/asian kids are compared to poor black children, poor black children still have it worse than those groups.  She wants to help those that are the most oppressed.  

Of course, whether you know it or not, you're making an argument for extending government funded education from high school to college.  I'm ok with that too.  I think our government needs to do everything it can to prepare individuals for competition in this global workforce we are participating in.

Arghhh.....This isn't an all or nothing argument.  I do not disagree one bit that blacks have it harder.  That seems to make sense.  It does NOT, however, mean that asian kids or white kids can;t have significant challenges..and Liz is going to only help the black kids.  

I'm not making an argument for more, I say none at all and don't give $50 billion to black kids ONLY...That's racism.  Singling out a group simply because of it's race.  

 

[SoBeDad]

Another wrinkle to this plan, there are for-profit colleges/universities that target kids from poor households knowing full well that money coming from student loan programs and delinquent loans will be high.

Correct. And they see a savior in Betty DeVos.

 

[The Commish]

Arghhh.....This isn't an all or nothing argument.  I do not disagree one bit that blacks have it harder.  That seems to make sense.  It does NOT, however, mean that asian kids or white kids can;t have significant challenges..and Liz is going to only help the black kids.  

I'm not making an argument for more, I say none at all and don't give $50 billion to black kids ONLY...That's racism.  Singling out a group simply because of it's race.  

You're focused on this particular obstacle.  Go back an obstacle or two where the poor white/asian kids are struggling through ankle deep mud while the black kids are wading through waist high mud.  Is that racism?  Of course it is.  So is your plan to overhaul the entire thing?  I'm certainly on board with that.  Interested in your thoughts on how you eliminate all the racism black kids experience prior to this point.

ETA:  Like I said, it would behove you to educate yourself on the entire topic of education through those studies.  Focus on one obstacle in the whole race while ignoring the others is a fruitless endeavor.  

 

[supermike80]

You're focused on this particular obstacle.  Go back an obstacle or two where the poor white/asian kids are struggling through ankle deep mud while the black kids are wading through waist high mud.  Is that racism?  Of course it is.  So is your plan to overhaul the entire thing?  I'm certainly on board with that.  Interested in your thoughts on how you eliminate all the racism black kids experience prior to this point.

Step 1). Eliminate any program that gives kids an economic advantage over other kids simply because of the color of their skin.

 

[The Commish]

Step 1). Eliminate any program that gives kids an economic advantage over other kids simply because of the color of their skin.

explain

 

[PhantomJB]

There are so many different stories of how people have gotten where they are.  I went to a two year college for liberal arts because I didn't know what I wanted to do.  I then went back to the same two year college and got a degree in landscaping.  I did landscaping for two years before I realized that's not what I wanted to do the rest of my life.  Now I'm part owner of a business and doing much better than I would have if still doing landscaping.

Let's not paint with too broad of a brush here.

Absolutely agree. So maybe you are misinterpreting my point and, in fact, helping reinforce it.

You made choices as a young person. Some good, some bad. Experimented. Had some setbacks but then paid a penalty for them. In the process learned some lessons that applied to future success and growth. 

College is a choice with consequences. Let those consequences pay out.

 

[supermike80]

explain

Kill Liz Warren's plan to give $50 billion in aid to strictly black colleges

 

[Hawkeye21]

Absolutely agree. So maybe you are misinterpreting my point and, in fact, helping reinforce it.

You made choices as a young person. Some good, some bad. Experimented. Had some setbacks but then paid a penalty for them. In the process learned some lessons that applied to future success and growth. 

College is a choice with consequences. Let those consequences pay out.

I must have misunderstood your point then.  I see people talk negative about people going to college but not using their degree for what they do after college.  It happens a lot but that college experience is not a waste.  It can be expensive but it's a huge learning experience regardless. 

 

[The Commish]

Kill Liz Warren's plan to give $50 billion in aid to strictly black colleges

Ok...what about the racism black students face prior to that in this wonderful race of life?

 

[supermike80]

Ok...what about the racism black students face prior to that in this wonderful race of life?

Well if I could solve that I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you now would I?   

 

[PhantomJB]

I must have misunderstood your point then.  I see people talk negative about people going to college but not using their degree for what they do after college.  It happens a lot but that college experience is not a waste.  It can be expensive but it's a huge learning experience regardless. 

Absolutely I would encourage freedom and experimentation. I only pointed it out as a negative when the learning experience comes at the expense of others.

 

[NCCommish]

Agree - I opened 529 plans the day both my kids were born and had it automatic withdrawal that I estimated would save 75% of college costs.  Both my kids will graduate with no student debt.

That's awesome and sincerely congratulations on being able to do that. I hope your children appreciate it. But you do realize that around 50% of the working families in this country can't deal with a 500.00 emergency right? Much less afford a college fund. 

 

[NCCommish]

Was that Oscar Wilde or Olivia, I can never remember.

Oscar.

 

[supermike80]

Absolutely I would encourage freedom and experimentation. I only pointed it out as a negative when the learning experience comes at the expense of others.

We don't wanna know about yer bedroom habits.   

   

 

[pantherclub]

I think it’s one of her better ideas. I’m in favor for a very specific reason: home buying. My FIL was the VP of a very large home building company in Southern California. Though retired he keeps up with trends. One recurrent theme is that even though young people are still coming out of college with good salaries they’re not able lto purchase homes in the same numbers their parents did because of the student loans. 

I’m one of those who believes that home ownership is essential to a stable and prosperous society. So I would structure this in the form of something like the old GI Bill. 

its a horrible idea

 

[belljr]

Doesn't matter what it costs, the government is going to pay for it.

Again a Stafford Goverment loan caps out at ~11K a year for undergrad students claiming independent.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsidized#how-much

 

[supermike80]

Again a Stafford Goverment loan caps out at ~11K a year for undergrad students claiming independent.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsidized#how-much

Today

 

[pantherclub]

Ok...what about the racism black students face prior to that in this wonderful race of life?

at some point in the near future that crutch excuse needs to be eliminated.  there are millions of AA in this country that rose above it.  at some point one needs to look in the mirror instead of screaming racism

 

[[scooter]]

I think it’s one of her better ideas. I’m in favor for a very specific reason: home buying.

Here's a better idea: don't count the student loan debt as part of a person's credit rating. Then, make them pay back the debt when either A) the house appreciates in value, or B) the house is sold.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

That's awesome and sincerely congratulations on being able to do that. I hope your children appreciate it. But you do realize that around 50% of the working families in this country can't deal with a 500.00 emergency right? Much less afford a college fund. 

That they do not have the money set aside does not mean that they could not have done so, at least not in all cases.  There are some in true poverty, too many, but for many their lack of financial resources only reflects their profligate ways.  We are not a society of savers.  We have unlearned that essential behavior, to live within our means.  Politicians, in particular, are loath to ever deliver that message as that message does not buy them votes.  Messaging that folks are the victims of unseen forces instead of their own lack of self control, and that the politician will right the wrong buys votes and is a welcome message.  A false one, but well welcomed.  

My administrative assistant makes 25% of what I do. She drives a Mercedes, I drive a 11 year old Hyundai or a 19 year old Dodge, depending on which I can keep running.  She has a brand new iphone, I have a 6 year old phone.  She wants to talk about Game of Thrones, but I can't afford HBO.  She eats out every weekend and goes to one event or another, I stay home and do yard work or house work, painting, doing flatwork, replacing and repairing items. My vacation this summer will be to paint the exterior of the home.

She thinks she cannot afford some items and that it is unfair.  She sometimes remarks that I have the money to do things and I should not worry about stuff. 

 

[TripItUp]

Instead of thinking up clever ways to tax the wealthy, and subsequently use that money, why not just think of a more transparent, less prescriptive approach.  

 

[TripItUp]

at some point in the near future that crutch excuse needs to be eliminated.  there are millions of AA in this country that rose above it.  at some point one needs to look in the mirror instead of screaming racism

 

[NCCommish]

That they do not have the money set aside does not mean that they could not have done so, at least not in all cases.  There are some in true poverty, too many, but for many their lack of financial resources only reflects their profligate ways.  We are not a society of savers.  We have unlearned that essential behavior, to live within our means.  Politicians, in particular, are loath to ever deliver that message as that message does not buy them votes.  Messaging that folks are the victims of unseen forces instead of their own lack of self control, and that the politician will right the wrong buys votes and is a welcome message.  A false one, but well welcomed.  

My administrative assistant makes 25% of what I do. She drives a Mercedes, I drive a 11 year old Hyundai or a 19 year old Dodge, depending on which I can keep running.  She has a brand new iphone, I have a 6 year old phone.  She wants to talk about Game of Thrones, but I can't afford HBO.  She eats out every weekend and goes to one event or another, I stay home and do yard work or house work, painting, doing flatwork, replacing and repairing items. My vacation this summer will be to paint the exterior of the home.

She thinks she cannot afford some items and that it is unfair.  She sometimes remarks that I have the money to do things and I should not worry about stuff. 

You sound a lot like my parents. Always denying themselves for later. Passed on using my mom's discount tickets to anywhere in the world. Never took a real vacation but it was going to all pay off when they retired. It didn't. They lost a ton of money in the crash. And now my father can't even dress himself much less travel. Not saying be completely a grasshopper but too much ant isn't good either.

 

[The Commish]

Well if I could solve that I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you now would I?   

That's part of the deal though.  The reality is, you can't change that.  So, if you can't change the path, you change the obstacles they contestants face.   

 

[Sweet J]

I think this plan is bullcrap.  I'm working my rear end off and saving every penny I can to send my kid to school so that he can graduate with no debt.  He is going to a school that he would MUCH prefer not to go to; and is giving up a school that he REALLY wants to go to, because I refuse to sign off on any school debt when he's got perfectly "workable" state school options.  And Warren wants to come in and discourage me from being fiscally responsible and reward people for not doing so?  Crap.

If I had saved NOTHING because I didn't have the means, then my kid would live at home and go to community college for two years, before transferring to a decent state school option, to minimize the debt.

I don't want to subsidize some kid's private school education. Call me a grumpy old man.  But what happened to personal responsibility? 

edited out an inflammatory word. 

 

[supermike80]

That's part of the deal though.  The reality is, you can't change that.  So, if you can't change the path, you change the obstacles they contestants face.   

You are still missing the point.

Economic disadvantages,,.Not by race.    It's racism.   And I am against ALL racism.   Including handouts simply by the color of a person's skin.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Instead of thinking up clever ways to tax the wealthy, and subsequently use that money, why not just think of a more transparent, less prescriptive approach.  

If you're suggesting increasing marginal tax rates on high income taxpayers, I'm completely on board.

 

[The Commish]

at some point in the near future that crutch excuse needs to be eliminated.  there are millions of AA in this country that rose above it.  at some point one needs to look in the mirror instead of screaming racism

You're speaking in the past tense as if it's been addressed in any meaningful way for them to move forward....it hasn't no matter how much you try to minimize it in your own mind.  It's still very real and a legitimate issue they are facing that a lot of others aren't.

 

[Sweet J]

You're speaking in the past tense as if it's been addressed in any meaningful way for them to move forward....it hasn't no matter how much you try to minimize it in your own mind.  It's still very real and a legitimate issue they are facing that a lot of others aren't.

As we both get older, you are sounding more "liberal" and I'm sounding more "conservative."  Weird.  I guess I'll meet you in the middle, brother.

 

[The Commish]

You are still missing the point.

Economic disadvantages,,.Not by race.    It's racism.   And I am against ALL racism.   Including handouts simply by the color of a person's skin.

We just went over this.  Remove this "racism" when you remove the racism they experience at points earlier in the race.  It's funny that you say you're against ALL racism but give a rather flippant response just a few posts up from this one when I ask you about racism they experience before this point in their lives.  I'm all for removing all the racism.....all of it.  Until then we have to attempt equality through obstacle manipulation  

 

[supermike80]

We just went over this.  Remove this "racism" when you remove the racism they experience at points earlier in the race.  It's funny that you say you're against ALL racism but give a rather flippant response just a few posts up from this one when I ask you about racism they experience before this point in their lives.  I'm all for removing all the racism.....all of it.  Until then we have to attempt equality through obstacle manipulation  

Yes we did.  Liz's proposal is racist.  Doesn't take into account anything but race, and that is textbook racism.    I'm against it.  I would rather it be supported by something like ECONOMIC obstacles....not just the color of their skin.

 

[The Commish]

As we both get older, you are sounding more "liberal" and I'm sounding more "conservative."  Weird.  I guess I'll meet you in the middle, brother.

What's "liberal" about acknowledging that the deck is still stacked based on race?  It might not be as lopsided as it once was, but it's not as close to "equal" as many want to believe.

 

[The Commish]

Yes we did.  Liz's proposal is racist.  Doesn't take into account anything but race, and that is textbook racism.    I'm against it.  I would rather it be supported by something like ECONOMIC obstacles....not just the color of their skin.

Ok...lets get rid of racism....my previous question that you just shrugged off still stands.  When I get an answer to that, I'm good with also removing this perceived racism.  Until then it needs to stay in place to attempt to level the playing field.

 

[PhantomJB]

You're speaking in the past tense as if it's been addressed in any meaningful way for them to move forward....it hasn't no matter how much you try to minimize it in your own mind.  It's still very real and a legitimate issue they are facing that a lot of others aren't.

"It" should have been addressed before the student chose to go to college. 

 

[Sweet J]

What's "liberal" about acknowledging that the deck is still stacked based on race?  It might not be as lopsided as it once was, but it's not as close to "equal" as many want to believe.

Heck, we could probably have a long conversation about this in another thread.  Was just a quick observation, really.  Based part in my perception (could be wrong), of a divide on the Left vs. Right about how we perceive race relations in this country.  I agree with what I think you are saying -- that a conversation about what is *actually* happening (i.e., demonstrative facts) shouldn't really be slanted at "liberal" vs "conservative." But anecdotally that isn't how it seems to be playing out in America right now.  But you are right -- I'm greatly oversimplifying.  Plenty of "conservative," "libertarian," or "Republican" folks are "progressive" when it comes to race discussions.  Just like plenty of liberals can be d*cks about it.