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ESPN stole FF Hall of Fame idea? (1 Viewer)

hephner

Footballguy
Read this yesterday on FootballOutsiders.com and didn't see any mention of it here yet.

I guess when your best ideas you can come up with yourself are things like "Who's Now?" :no: :angry: :unsure: , you've gotta steal good ideas from somewhere to help promote your network.

Pretty funny read too:

Virgil Parks Defends the Original FFHoF

8/1/2007

by Mike Tanier

Back in 2005, Mike Tanier wrote the original story about the Fantasy Football Hall of Fame (FFHoF) and its visionary creator Virgil Parks. We caught up with Parks again one year later for an update. But since then, ESPN appropriated Parks’ idea without his consent. Their new Fantasy Football Hall of Fame advertising campaign is crushing Parks’ efforts to get the real FFHoF off the ground. As part of our continuing effort to stick up for the common man, we dispatched Mike Tanier to interview Parks.

Tanier: How did you feel when you saw the ESPN Fantasy Football Hall of Fame advertisements, which seem to be a blatant rip-off of your idea?

Parks: I was astonished. I was disappointed. But mostly I was hung over. I saw them on Friday morning after dollar drafts night at P.J.’s. Ruthie was tending bad, the cute blonde with that amazing dragon tattoo at the base of her …

Tanier: Focus, Virgil.

Parks: Right. Anyway, two aspirins, an Arnold Palmer, and a soft boiled egg later, I knew I had to call two people: my lawyer, and my friends at Football Outsiders.

Tanier: You seem to have a clear-cut case here. I mean, you copyrighted the name Fantasy Football Hall of Fame, right?

Parks: Um, no. See, some years ago a business partner convinced me to switch from copyright to Copy-Lite, a low-cost alternative legal protection source. With copyright, you file some paperwork and get an ironclad guarantee that no one can claim your intellectual property. With Copy-Lite, you cross your fingers and rely on everyone else to be honest. Copy-Lite never failed me until now.

Tanier: So what’s your course of action here?

Parks: Oh, don’t worry. I still have a case. I mean, your article appeared both here and on FOXSports.com in December of 2005. Deadspin also picked it up, as did some other news sources. Unless the four-letter network has some material from before that date (fat chance) it is clear that they nabbed my idea. I plan to sue for 3.5 bazillion dollars.

Tanier: That’s a considerable amount. Are you afraid of taking on a media giant like ESPN?

Parks: I’ve done it before. I sued NBC over the Smurfs in 1982. I proved that my 13-year old nephew got a tattoo on his arm because he wanted to emulate Hefty Smurf. Got a good settlement for pain and suffering, too. I’m the reason why Hefty’s arm was digitally altered in all subsequent broadcasts. Peyo carried a grudge against me to his grave, the Belgian *******.

Tanier: Do you think that ESPN maliciously stole your idea?

Parks: Oh, I know what you are thinking. It isn’t the most original idea in the world. There are some similarities between my Hall, as outlined in your article, and ESPN’s concept, but they could be the product of any brainstorming session. This isn’t like your precious FO “research” that you guard so carefully. But you know what? The Football Outsiders article about the Fantasy Football Hall of Fame is still the top result on Google. Either the advertising agency didn’t do a routine Google search to find me, so they ran with their idea, or they did a routine Google search, found me, and decided I was ripe for the plucking. So it’s either incompetence or theft. I don’t care which it is. I just want my 3.5 bazillion dollars.

Tanier: Have you suffered material losses?

Parks: Oh, it is a desperate crisis. The real, original FFHoF cannot raise money anymore. We were working on a Drew Bledsoe statue, and we hoped to make it as lifelike as possible. We hoped to hire MIT engineers to develop special alloys that would make the Bledsoe statue 25 percent more immobile than a regular statue. That project is out the window. We can’t afford to hire curators, cafeteria staff … heck, Mike, we can’t even afford to pay your stipend for all of the work you do as Recording Secretary and Media Consultant.

Tanier: You pay me in tavern peanuts.

Parks: Yes, but so does Football Outsiders. And that’s the point, isn’t it? Advertising agencies receive tens of thousands of dollars to design campaigns like the Fantasy Football Hall of Fame. Networks like ESPN spend millions implementing those campaigns. You and the other FO writers aren’t really looking for those types of paydays, though I bet you wouldn’t turn them down. What you really want is credit. Mention Football Outsiders or Pro Football Prospectus, and maybe we’ll sell a few hundred more books. Mention Mike Tanier or Aaron Schatz, and maybe they can demand more as freelance writers or get better assignments. That’s all someone has to do, and while you won’t hand over the DVOA formula or anything, you’ll be pretty darn generous with your research or ideas. It has to be discouraging when the bigger fish won’t even acknowledge what they borrowed, let alone pay for it.

Tanier: It is discouraging, Virgil. But this isn’t about me. It’s about you and the FFHoF. Where do you go from here?

Parks: We’re adapting. I’m talking to some investors about an NFL Draft Hall of Fame. Brian Bosworth. Trev Alberts. Ryan Leaf. I know a guy who knows Mel Kiper Jr.’s barber and can get a lock of his hair. Some contractors say that for the right price they can build an authentic Brady Quinn Isolation Chamber. If I strike it rich from this lawsuit, we could break ground on the new museum by 2009.

Tanier: Sounds great. I am on board to help.

Parks: Thanks, homeslice. And remember: you heard about the NFL Draft Hall of Fame here first!

posted 8-1-2007 at 2:03 PM by Mike Tanier || Too Deep Zone ||

 
This isn't even the first or most blatant instance of the mainstream media blatantly ripping off Football Outsiders. Gil Brandt blatantly ripped off some of their research, although he eventually almost apologized, even if it WAS buried on the depths of NFL.com where no one would see it.

 
Not defending Brandt but how is that "almost" an apology. Seems like a full apology.

 
This isn't even the first or most blatant instance of the mainstream media blatantly ripping off Football Outsiders. Gil Brandt blatantly ripped off some of their research, although he eventually almost apologized, even if it WAS buried on the depths of NFL.com where no one would see it.
Ya, I remember reading about that. I like how Brandt later backtracked after it came out that it was virtually word for word, and said that he basically forgot to site the source.After reading Moneyball, it doesn't surprise me that this sort of thing is happening to FootballOutsiders. It sounded like a lot of people were borrowing Bill James' ideas on baseball statistical analysis, although a lot of teams were resistant to admitting they were slowly joining the sabermetrics bandwagon.

 
There aren't many original(completely original) ideas on most FF sites, or even sports in general.

This isn't new.

I recall a few "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" posts from loads of different people over the years including Dodds and Joe B.

Every sports radio station does an update. WFAN first did that in NY 20+years ago. Big deal.

IIRC years ago only one station ran scores across the screen during football telecasts and the other thought that might be annoying. Now they all do. Big deal.

I've had several of my FF stuff imitated and/or improved upon even if just in taking my theory and running with it. Big deal.

Google isn't anywhere near the first search engine.

Wikipedia came many years after the first wiki or twiki.

There's a fine line between imitation and improving upon an idea. We need more or the latter as that creates some good competition and us FF visitors get to reap the benefits.

FBGs isn't the first to have a blogger. Doug isn't the first to have a stats site. Who cares?

 
Sorry, but this article just seems like a bad attempt at humor.

Read this yesterday on FootballOutsiders.com and didn't see any mention of it here yet.

I guess when your best ideas you can come up with yourself are things like "Who's Now?" ;) :unsure: :rolleyes: , you've gotta steal good ideas from somewhere to help promote your network.

Pretty funny read too:

Virgil Parks Defends the Original FFHoF

8/1/2007

by Mike Tanier

Back in 2005, Mike Tanier wrote the original story about the Fantasy Football Hall of Fame (FFHoF) and its visionary creator Virgil Parks. We caught up with Parks again one year later for an update. But since then, ESPN appropriated Parks’ idea without his consent. Their new Fantasy Football Hall of Fame advertising campaign is crushing Parks’ efforts to get the real FFHoF off the ground. As part of our continuing effort to stick up for the common man, we dispatched Mike Tanier to interview Parks.

Tanier: How did you feel when you saw the ESPN Fantasy Football Hall of Fame advertisements, which seem to be a blatant rip-off of your idea?

Parks: I was astonished. I was disappointed. But mostly I was hung over. I saw them on Friday morning after dollar drafts night at P.J.’s. Ruthie was tending bad, the cute blonde with that amazing dragon tattoo at the base of her …

Tanier: Focus, Virgil.

Parks: Right. Anyway, two aspirins, an Arnold Palmer, and a soft boiled egg later, I knew I had to call two people: my lawyer, and my friends at Football Outsiders.

Tanier: You seem to have a clear-cut case here. I mean, you copyrighted the name Fantasy Football Hall of Fame, right?

Parks: Um, no. See, some years ago a business partner convinced me to switch from copyright to Copy-Lite, a low-cost alternative legal protection source. With copyright, you file some paperwork and get an ironclad guarantee that no one can claim your intellectual property. With Copy-Lite, you cross your fingers and rely on everyone else to be honest. Copy-Lite never failed me until now.

Tanier: So what’s your course of action here?

Parks: Oh, don’t worry. I still have a case. I mean, your article appeared both here and on FOXSports.com in December of 2005. Deadspin also picked it up, as did some other news sources. Unless the four-letter network has some material from before that date (fat chance) it is clear that they nabbed my idea. I plan to sue for 3.5 bazillion dollars.

Tanier: That’s a considerable amount. Are you afraid of taking on a media giant like ESPN?

Parks: I’ve done it before. I sued NBC over the Smurfs in 1982. I proved that my 13-year old nephew got a tattoo on his arm because he wanted to emulate Hefty Smurf. Got a good settlement for pain and suffering, too. I’m the reason why Hefty’s arm was digitally altered in all subsequent broadcasts. Peyo carried a grudge against me to his grave, the Belgian *******.

Tanier: Do you think that ESPN maliciously stole your idea?

Parks: Oh, I know what you are thinking. It isn’t the most original idea in the world. There are some similarities between my Hall, as outlined in your article, and ESPN’s concept, but they could be the product of any brainstorming session. This isn’t like your precious FO “research” that you guard so carefully. But you know what? The Football Outsiders article about the Fantasy Football Hall of Fame is still the top result on Google. Either the advertising agency didn’t do a routine Google search to find me, so they ran with their idea, or they did a routine Google search, found me, and decided I was ripe for the plucking. So it’s either incompetence or theft. I don’t care which it is. I just want my 3.5 bazillion dollars.

Tanier: Have you suffered material losses?

Parks: Oh, it is a desperate crisis. The real, original FFHoF cannot raise money anymore. We were working on a Drew Bledsoe statue, and we hoped to make it as lifelike as possible. We hoped to hire MIT engineers to develop special alloys that would make the Bledsoe statue 25 percent more immobile than a regular statue. That project is out the window. We can’t afford to hire curators, cafeteria staff … heck, Mike, we can’t even afford to pay your stipend for all of the work you do as Recording Secretary and Media Consultant.

Tanier: You pay me in tavern peanuts.

Parks: Yes, but so does Football Outsiders. And that’s the point, isn’t it? Advertising agencies receive tens of thousands of dollars to design campaigns like the Fantasy Football Hall of Fame. Networks like ESPN spend millions implementing those campaigns. You and the other FO writers aren’t really looking for those types of paydays, though I bet you wouldn’t turn them down. What you really want is credit. Mention Football Outsiders or Pro Football Prospectus, and maybe we’ll sell a few hundred more books. Mention Mike Tanier or Aaron Schatz, and maybe they can demand more as freelance writers or get better assignments. That’s all someone has to do, and while you won’t hand over the DVOA formula or anything, you’ll be pretty darn generous with your research or ideas. It has to be discouraging when the bigger fish won’t even acknowledge what they borrowed, let alone pay for it.

Tanier: It is discouraging, Virgil. But this isn’t about me. It’s about you and the FFHoF. Where do you go from here?

Parks: We’re adapting. I’m talking to some investors about an NFL Draft Hall of Fame. Brian Bosworth. Trev Alberts. Ryan Leaf. I know a guy who knows Mel Kiper Jr.’s barber and can get a lock of his hair. Some contractors say that for the right price they can build an authentic Brady Quinn Isolation Chamber. If I strike it rich from this lawsuit, we could break ground on the new museum by 2009.

Tanier: Sounds great. I am on board to help.

Parks: Thanks, homeslice. And remember: you heard about the NFL Draft Hall of Fame here first!

posted 8-1-2007 at 2:03 PM by Mike Tanier || Too Deep Zone ||
 
Sorry, but this article just seems like a bad attempt at humor.

Read this yesterday on FootballOutsiders.com and didn't see any mention of it here yet.

I guess when your best ideas you can come up with yourself are things like "Who's Now?" ;) :unsure: :rolleyes: , you've gotta steal good ideas from somewhere to help promote your network.

Pretty funny read too:

Virgil Parks Defends the Original FFHoF

8/1/2007

by Mike Tanier

Back in 2005, Mike Tanier wrote the original story about the Fantasy Football Hall of Fame (FFHoF) and its visionary creator Virgil Parks. We caught up with Parks again one year later for an update. But since then, ESPN appropriated Parks’ idea without his consent. Their new Fantasy Football Hall of Fame advertising campaign is crushing Parks’ efforts to get the real FFHoF off the ground. As part of our continuing effort to stick up for the common man, we dispatched Mike Tanier to interview Parks.

Tanier: How did you feel when you saw the ESPN Fantasy Football Hall of Fame advertisements, which seem to be a blatant rip-off of your idea?

Parks: I was astonished. I was disappointed. But mostly I was hung over. I saw them on Friday morning after dollar drafts night at P.J.’s. Ruthie was tending bad, the cute blonde with that amazing dragon tattoo at the base of her …

Tanier: Focus, Virgil.

Parks: Right. Anyway, two aspirins, an Arnold Palmer, and a soft boiled egg later, I knew I had to call two people: my lawyer, and my friends at Football Outsiders.

Tanier: You seem to have a clear-cut case here. I mean, you copyrighted the name Fantasy Football Hall of Fame, right?

Parks: Um, no. See, some years ago a business partner convinced me to switch from copyright to Copy-Lite, a low-cost alternative legal protection source. With copyright, you file some paperwork and get an ironclad guarantee that no one can claim your intellectual property. With Copy-Lite, you cross your fingers and rely on everyone else to be honest. Copy-Lite never failed me until now.

Tanier: So what’s your course of action here?

Parks: Oh, don’t worry. I still have a case. I mean, your article appeared both here and on FOXSports.com in December of 2005. Deadspin also picked it up, as did some other news sources. Unless the four-letter network has some material from before that date (fat chance) it is clear that they nabbed my idea. I plan to sue for 3.5 bazillion dollars.

Tanier: That’s a considerable amount. Are you afraid of taking on a media giant like ESPN?

Parks: I’ve done it before. I sued NBC over the Smurfs in 1982. I proved that my 13-year old nephew got a tattoo on his arm because he wanted to emulate Hefty Smurf. Got a good settlement for pain and suffering, too. I’m the reason why Hefty’s arm was digitally altered in all subsequent broadcasts. Peyo carried a grudge against me to his grave, the Belgian *******.

Tanier: Do you think that ESPN maliciously stole your idea?

Parks: Oh, I know what you are thinking. It isn’t the most original idea in the world. There are some similarities between my Hall, as outlined in your article, and ESPN’s concept, but they could be the product of any brainstorming session. This isn’t like your precious FO “research” that you guard so carefully. But you know what? The Football Outsiders article about the Fantasy Football Hall of Fame is still the top result on Google. Either the advertising agency didn’t do a routine Google search to find me, so they ran with their idea, or they did a routine Google search, found me, and decided I was ripe for the plucking. So it’s either incompetence or theft. I don’t care which it is. I just want my 3.5 bazillion dollars.

Tanier: Have you suffered material losses?

Parks: Oh, it is a desperate crisis. The real, original FFHoF cannot raise money anymore. We were working on a Drew Bledsoe statue, and we hoped to make it as lifelike as possible. We hoped to hire MIT engineers to develop special alloys that would make the Bledsoe statue 25 percent more immobile than a regular statue. That project is out the window. We can’t afford to hire curators, cafeteria staff … heck, Mike, we can’t even afford to pay your stipend for all of the work you do as Recording Secretary and Media Consultant.

Tanier: You pay me in tavern peanuts.

Parks: Yes, but so does Football Outsiders. And that’s the point, isn’t it? Advertising agencies receive tens of thousands of dollars to design campaigns like the Fantasy Football Hall of Fame. Networks like ESPN spend millions implementing those campaigns. You and the other FO writers aren’t really looking for those types of paydays, though I bet you wouldn’t turn them down. What you really want is credit. Mention Football Outsiders or Pro Football Prospectus, and maybe we’ll sell a few hundred more books. Mention Mike Tanier or Aaron Schatz, and maybe they can demand more as freelance writers or get better assignments. That’s all someone has to do, and while you won’t hand over the DVOA formula or anything, you’ll be pretty darn generous with your research or ideas. It has to be discouraging when the bigger fish won’t even acknowledge what they borrowed, let alone pay for it.

Tanier: It is discouraging, Virgil. But this isn’t about me. It’s about you and the FFHoF. Where do you go from here?

Parks: We’re adapting. I’m talking to some investors about an NFL Draft Hall of Fame. Brian Bosworth. Trev Alberts. Ryan Leaf. I know a guy who knows Mel Kiper Jr.’s barber and can get a lock of his hair. Some contractors say that for the right price they can build an authentic Brady Quinn Isolation Chamber. If I strike it rich from this lawsuit, we could break ground on the new museum by 2009.

Tanier: Sounds great. I am on board to help.

Parks: Thanks, homeslice. And remember: you heard about the NFL Draft Hall of Fame here first!

posted 8-1-2007 at 2:03 PM by Mike Tanier || Too Deep Zone ||
I think they're intent was to take a lighter approach to the subject while jabbing at ESPN a bit. Obviously, the subject matter of an FF HOF is not that serious of a topic to begin with, hence the tone of the interview.
 
Parks: I’ve done it before. I sued NBC over the Smurfs in 1982. I proved that my 13-year old nephew got a tattoo on his arm because he wanted to emulate Hefty Smurf. Got a good settlement for pain and suffering, too. I’m the reason why Hefty’s arm was digitally altered in all subsequent broadcasts. Peyo carried a grudge against me to his grave, the Belgian *******.
just for that I hope he gets NOTHING!!!!!!what a slimeball
 
There aren't many original(completely original) ideas on most FF sites, or even sports in general.This isn't new.I recall a few "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" posts from loads of different people over the years including Dodds and Joe B.Every sports radio station does an update. WFAN first did that in NY 20+years ago. Big deal.IIRC years ago only one station ran scores across the screen during football telecasts and the other thought that might be annoying. Now they all do. Big deal.I've had several of my FF stuff imitated and/or improved upon even if just in taking my theory and running with it. Big deal.Google isn't anywhere near the first search engine.Wikipedia came many years after the first wiki or twiki.There's a fine line between imitation and improving upon an idea. We need more or the latter as that creates some good competition and us FF visitors get to reap the benefits.FBGs isn't the first to have a blogger. Doug isn't the first to have a stats site. Who cares?
Unfortunately, a lot of ideas seem to get stolen in the fantasy realm though. I could be wrong, but doesn't FBG have an actual copyright on VBD? And yet I see it talked about and used other places, my guess is without permission.I think this article was just a humorous way of pointing out that ESPN steals material from the small guys. They recognize that there's not much else that they can do about it because they're not going to win a legal fight against ESPN.
 
Coming from the entertainment industry, as I do, this is not uncommon. If you do not protect yourself against it (ie, if you didn't copyright something) you might get that idea duplicated.

On the other hand, stuff gets duplicated all the time -- ideas are out there in the 'ether' and often more than one person might come up with the same thing at the same time. So you can't jump the gun and assume some idea was stolen.

Although it sounds like Outsiders had this going a while ago. But if it ain't copyrighted... well hate to say it, but it's free game.

Also, a quick copyright note - if VBD is copyrighted and is being used elsewhere, FBG should put a stop to it. Every time you let it go, you weaken your copyright - if you finally take someone to court after they or others have used your copyrighted material, product or whatever without permission repeatedly and you never stopped it - the opposing attorney will cite all those times you let it go for years and you might lose. Just a tangent there.

I wouldn't be shocked if ESPN straight ripped the idea off (or more to the point, their marketing guys). I'm also not shocked if people say it happens often.

 
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Not defending Brandt but how is that "almost" an apology. Seems like a full apology.
I call it "almost" an apology because it was buried deep within the deepest recesses of NFL.com where no one will ever see it. It's also a complete lie- Greg Esterbrook approached Gil Brandt about how he stole from Football Outsiders, and Brandt vigorously denied all accusations, saying that he compiled all of those numbers and did all of the research himself (despite the fact that "his" research had the exact same silly mistake that FO's had, where they included everyone else's bowl games in games started, but forgot about McNabb's). It wasn't until FO went over Brandt's head and went to his editors that they forced him to write an admission where he pretends that stealing the article was an honest mistake and he never lied and pretended that it was his own work.If someone does something wrong, lies about it and vigorously denies it, and then finally "apologizes" only because his boss forces him to, then I consider that almost an apology.As for ESPN ripping off the FFHoF (and trust me, they knew about Football Outsiders' version before they made their own, simply because FO's version was and still is the #1 Google result for "fantasy football hall of fame"), I don't think it's that big of a deal. It's an idea that I'm sure has been done many times before, and seems like something that a couple guys would debate around the water cooler. I don't think having a FFHoF is any worse than a "Top-50 players chances to make the HoF", despite the fact that that conversation has been done thousands of times already. Brandt actually going and ripping off original statistical research and then lying about it later, on the other hand, really gets me steamed.
 
Unfortunately, a lot of ideas seem to get stolen in the fantasy realm though. I could be wrong, but doesn't FBG have an actual copyright on VBD? And yet I see it talked about and used other places, my guess is without permission.
I doubt it. I remember it 10+ years ago on the RSFF newsgroup and that's before FBGs.DD could have done it with Mr. Football but Greg Kellogg was into VBD back then too with articles at Komments.com or his netscape site.

The words "value based drafting" seem like common words too and/or a common idea name anyone could have come up with on their own, completely separate and felt it was original.

One thing too-

FF was supposedly invented by someone on the Raiders in the 60s but me and my friends played rotisere baseball but for football. Countless others crossed rotisere baseball into other sports like us so...which is the original thought?

I remember using tiers on my geocities site when someone else (very very same time) used "blocks". Further, I don't think grouping players into smaller groups is original so it was probably done llllong before us.

One thing that gets lost in FF is the books about the NFL draft in print. GMs, coaches, scouts etc discuss their draft thoughts and ideas. Those old guys may have initially(inadvertently) come up some FF draft ideas too.

Really the best thing to do is sit back and just enjoy, life's too short for anything else IMO

 
Sorry but the idea of a fantasy football HoF wasn't even an original idea in 2005... Just nobody is stupid enough to actually try and make one lol... That's like making a Bomberman 64 HoF, which I am not opposed to :/

 
Unfortunately, a lot of ideas seem to get stolen in the fantasy realm though. I could be wrong, but doesn't FBG have an actual copyright on VBD? And yet I see it talked about and used other places, my guess is without permission.
I doubt it. I remember it 10+ years ago on the RSFF newsgroup and that's before FBGs.DD could have done it with Mr. Football but Greg Kellogg was into VBD back then too with articles at Komments.com or his netscape site.

The words "value based drafting" seem like common words too and/or a common idea name anyone could have come up with on their own, completely separate and felt it was original.

One thing too-

FF was supposedly invented by someone on the Raiders in the 60s but me and my friends played rotisere baseball but for football. Countless others crossed rotisere baseball into other sports like us so...which is the original thought?

I remember using tiers on my geocities site when someone else (very very same time) used "blocks". Further, I don't think grouping players into smaller groups is original so it was probably done llllong before us.

One thing that gets lost in FF is the books about the NFL draft in print. GMs, coaches, scouts etc discuss their draft thoughts and ideas. Those old guys may have initially(inadvertently) come up some FF draft ideas too.

Really the best thing to do is sit back and just enjoy, life's too short for anything else IMO
:rolleyes: I'm pretty sure that Joe came up with VBD. LinkNow maybe he never copyrighted it or felt that it was a general enough idea that he couldn't copyright it. And of course there were other people out there diving into stats. But this is a pretty specific line of reasoning and statistical comparison and IMO a pretty original idea. And frankly, Joe and David can probably credit a large amount of FBG's success to the idea of VBD.

Ideas do have value in the marketplace and people shouldn't just throw their hands up and shrug when someone steals their original idea. I think in the case of a FFHoF they'd have a hard time getting a judge to believe that it wasn't an obvious idea, but just because someone has to do with fantasy football doesn't mean that it doesn't have real world value attached to it.

 
Unfortunately, a lot of ideas seem to get stolen in the fantasy realm though. I could be wrong, but doesn't FBG have an actual copyright on VBD? And yet I see it talked about and used other places, my guess is without permission.
I doubt it. I remember it 10+ years ago on the RSFF newsgroup and that's before FBGs.DD could have done it with Mr. Football but Greg Kellogg was into VBD back then too with articles at Komments.com or his netscape site.

The words "value based drafting" seem like common words too and/or a common idea name anyone could have come up with on their own, completely separate and felt it was original.

One thing too-

FF was supposedly invented by someone on the Raiders in the 60s but me and my friends played rotisere baseball but for football. Countless others crossed rotisere baseball into other sports like us so...which is the original thought?

I remember using tiers on my geocities site when someone else (very very same time) used "blocks". Further, I don't think grouping players into smaller groups is original so it was probably done llllong before us.

One thing that gets lost in FF is the books about the NFL draft in print. GMs, coaches, scouts etc discuss their draft thoughts and ideas. Those old guys may have initially(inadvertently) come up some FF draft ideas too.

Really the best thing to do is sit back and just enjoy, life's too short for anything else IMO
:thumbup: I'm pretty sure that Joe came up with VBD. Link
as I saidhttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.f...arch+this+group

ETA should clarify

You'll see a 1999 thread where Greg mentions a completely different article by Joe, not the 2001 article you linked. So I could be wrong in that it was in fact Joe, but it wasn't started at FBGs.

BTW if you're a VBD nut, you may thoroughly enjoy that thread

 
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Unfortunately, a lot of ideas seem to get stolen in the fantasy realm though. I could be wrong, but doesn't FBG have an actual copyright on VBD? And yet I see it talked about and used other places, my guess is without permission.
I doubt it. I remember it 10+ years ago on the RSFF newsgroup and that's before FBGs.DD could have done it with Mr. Football but Greg Kellogg was into VBD back then too with articles at Komments.com or his netscape site.

The words "value based drafting" seem like common words too and/or a common idea name anyone could have come up with on their own, completely separate and felt it was original.

One thing too-

FF was supposedly invented by someone on the Raiders in the 60s but me and my friends played rotisere baseball but for football. Countless others crossed rotisere baseball into other sports like us so...which is the original thought?

I remember using tiers on my geocities site when someone else (very very same time) used "blocks". Further, I don't think grouping players into smaller groups is original so it was probably done llllong before us.

One thing that gets lost in FF is the books about the NFL draft in print. GMs, coaches, scouts etc discuss their draft thoughts and ideas. Those old guys may have initially(inadvertently) come up some FF draft ideas too.

Really the best thing to do is sit back and just enjoy, life's too short for anything else IMO
:thumbup: I'm pretty sure that Joe came up with VBD. LinkNow maybe he never copyrighted it or felt that it was a general enough idea that he couldn't copyright it. And of course there were other people out there diving into stats. But this is a pretty specific line of reasoning and statistical comparison and IMO a pretty original idea. And frankly, Joe and David can probably credit a large amount of FBG's success to the idea of VBD.

Ideas do have value in the marketplace and people shouldn't just throw their hands up and shrug when someone steals their original idea. I think in the case of a FFHoF they'd have a hard time getting a judge to believe that it wasn't an obvious idea, but just because someone has to do with fantasy football doesn't mean that it doesn't have real world value attached to it.
I think theres a lineage of the idea that could date all the way back to what Bill James was doing with the Baseball Abstract books in the 80's, and what he simply called "Approximate Value". In the late 90s, I believe, Keith Woolner, who created Baseball Prospectus, improved the measure when he introduced the VORP rating system (Value over Replacement Player), which is very similar to VBD in the FF world.
 
I think theres a lineage of the idea that could date all the way back to what Bill James was doing with the Baseball Abstract books in the 80's, and what he simply called "Approximate Value". In the late 90s, I believe, Keith Woolner, who created Baseball Prospectus, improved the measure when he introduced the VORP rating system (Value over Replacement Player), which is very similar to VBD in the FF world.
well in each article I've seen, Joe credits some baseball folks too.There really is a point here where it's wayyy more fun to just enjoy it
 

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