Fantasy playoff chaos question, opinions needed (1 Viewer)

[Smack Tripper]

Fantasy playoff chaos question:

Four teams, 7-6 for two wildcard slots.

League rules:

Tiebreakers:

1. Winning percentage

2. Head to head record

3. Total points

4. Divisional record

Teams in Order of descending points(no ties in total points)

Team a

Team b

Team c

Team d

Team a 1-2 vs common opponents ( with a win over team b)

Team b and c are 2-1

Team d is 1-2 (with a win over team c)

Who goes to the post?

 

[Don Quixote]

Team B. Team B & C tied after first tiebreak with 2-1 head to head record. Team B wins over Team C in second tiebreak in total points.

ETA: Just saw two go. B & C.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Team B. Team B & C tied after first tiebreak with 2-1 head to head record. Team B wins over Team C in second tiebreak in total points.

ETA: Just saw two go. B & C.

This is the website default

Team A is arguing to the commish that he beat team b head to head and outscored him and the tiebreak is head to head and not combined record of the tied teams. Can't say we've had this issue historically.

 

[Van Dyman]

A and B. HTH should only be used to break a tie between two teams, not four, so go to the next tie-breaker.

 

[Catbird]

In my leagues that use H2H as a tiebreaker, the rule is you have to beat everyone you are tied with H2H for that to break the tie. If not, as here, you go to the next breaker and it finishes a, b, c and d.

 

[rick6668]

A and B. HTH should only be used to break a tie between two teams, not four, so go to the next tie-breaker.

This.

Tie for 4 teams broken by Total Points - Team A

Tie for 3 teams broken by Total Points - Team B

HTH is only for a tiebreak with 2 teams. (HTH is a stupid tiebreak anyway)

 

[Don Quixote]

Team B. Team B & C tied after first tiebreak with 2-1 head to head record. Team B wins over Team C in second tiebreak in total points.

ETA: Just saw two go. B & C.

This is the website default

Team A is arguing to the commish that he beat team b head to head and outscored him and the tiebreak is head to head and not combined record of the tied teams. Can't say we've had this issue historically.

The rule, as described, is also not that H2H only applies as a tiebreaker if the team has beaten all tied teams. I think the sensible thing to do is apply each tiebreak down the chain to all four teams until the tie is broken.

 

[rick6668]

In my leagues that use H2H as a tiebreaker, the rule is you have to beat everyone you are tied with H2H for that to break the tie. If not, as here, you go to the next breaker and it finishes a, b, c and d.

Close, should be A, B, D, C in your scenario. After A is selected on Total Points, B is selected on HTH record of 2-0 and then D is selected based on HTH record of 1-0, then C.

 

[shadyridr]

I still dont understand why people use H2H as a tiebreaker. Just use points. It eliminates all this confusion and also reduces the luck a little too.

 

[GregR]

People are posting about their league's rules, not about Smack Tripper's though.

If the 2nd tiebreak is head to head record, unless it was worded specifically otherwise that should be interpreted to mean total head to head record amongst tied teams at that point in the tiebreak.

So after step 2, you have teams A and D eliminated with 1-2 records and teams B and C continue tiebreaking.

For seeding B and C, you restart a tiebreak with just the two of them. So you would go to head to head games between just B and C. Total points would never get used in this scenario. In a multi-team tiebreak, if a team is eliminated you start back at the top, you never just continue on to the next step with the remaining teams.

 

[chad in Indy]

Can you explain why divisional record is the last tie breaker? That really doesn't make sense and logically should be the #2 behind overall record if you actually have divisions

 

[Smack Tripper]

Can you explain why divisional record is the last tie breaker? That really doesn't make sense and logically should be the #2 behind overall record if you actually have divisions

Not sure. I think the league push will be for total points next year to avoid this.

But we are certainly working with the existing rules.

 

[GregR]

Can you explain why divisional record is the last tie breaker? That really doesn't make sense and logically should be the #2 behind overall record if you actually have divisions

Not sure. I think the league push will be for total points next year to avoid this.

But we are certainly working with the existing rules.

Which is what you have to do.

Team A's interpretation of applying head to head record just isn't the normal meaning of the term or how it is applied. He just needs to accept that.

 

[Joe Summer]

Here's how the NFL would break the tie (I think):

FOR 1st PLAYOFF SPOT:

STEP 1: eliminate A and D (because they are 1-2 in H2H)

STEP 2: eliminate B (because it lost to C in H2H)

Therefore, C gets the first playoff spot. Now you start over for the other spot:

STEP 1: eliminate D (0-2 vs A & B)

STEP 2: eliminate B (because it lost to A in H2H)

Therefore, A gets the 2nd playoff spot.

 

[ratbast]

Most h2h tiebreakers i have seen word it as winning percentage among tied teams. Thus B and C are the two who make the playoffs.

To rank the higher one of those two, id say total points so B but I could see the argument to do h2h again between the 2 of them first.

Either way, A and D are out.

 

[Meatwad Reloaded]

B and C. You guys are idiots for not making total points the main tie breaker. It is also stupid that the number one 'tie' breaker is 'winning percentage'. Don't you have the same win percentage if you end in a tie?

 

[BobbyLayne]

I still dont understand why people use H2H as a tiebreaker. Just use points. It eliminates all this confusion and also reduces the luck a little too.

 

[Phantom Knight]

Can you explain why divisional record is the last tie breaker? That really doesn't make sense and logically should be the #2 behind overall record if you actually have divisions

Not sure. I think the league push will be for total points next year to avoid this.

But we are certainly working with the existing rules.

Which is what you have to do.

Team A's interpretation of applying head to head record just isn't the normal meaning of the term or how it is applied. He just needs to accept that.

The issue is that those who are not in this league cannot assume how H2H is defined. As this thread illustrates, there are leagues doing things different ways.

If the league uses a "strict" head to head definition, then the H2H tiebreak would be skipped giving the playoff spots to teams A and B.

If the league uses a "general" head to head definition, then the H2H tiebreak would apply giving the playoff sports to teams B and C.

Hopefully the league bylaws define this. If not, the commish has to determine how to fairly select one of the two options.

 

[Van Dyman]

Can you explain why divisional record is the last tie breaker? That really doesn't make sense and logically should be the #2 behind overall record if you actually have divisions

Not sure. I think the league push will be for total points next year to avoid this.

But we are certainly working with the existing rules.

Which is what you have to do.

Team A's interpretation of applying head to head record just isn't the normal meaning of the term or how it is applied. He just needs to accept that.

The issue is that those who are not in this league cannot assume how H2H is defined. As this thread illustrates, there are leagues doing things different ways.

If the league uses a "strict" head to head definition, then the H2H tiebreak would be skipped giving the playoff spots to teams A and B.

If the league uses a "general" head to head definition, then the H2H tiebreak would apply giving the playoff sports to teams B and C.

Hopefully the league bylaws define this. If not, the commish has to determine how to fairly select one of the two options.

If the site has separate options for HTH or "record against tied teams" then that would be significant, right?

eta: heads to heads. Just struck me as funny.

 

[tangfoot]

H2H should only be used if one team has swept all teams they are tied with. In this case I would break the 4-way tie by total points only.

 

[Mr.Pack]

People are posting about their league's rules, not about Smack Tripper's though.

If the 2nd tiebreak is head to head record, unless it was worded specifically otherwise that should be interpreted to mean total head to head record amongst tied teams at that point in the tiebreak.

So after step 2, you have teams A and D eliminated with 1-2 records and teams B and C continue tiebreaking.

For seeding B and C, you restart a tiebreak with just the two of them. So you would go to head to head games between just B and C. Total points would never get used in this scenario. In a multi-team tiebreak, if a team is eliminated you start back at the top, you never just continue on to the next step with the remaining teams.

This is exactly right.

This is how your rules are written.

 

[bigums]

People are posting about their league's rules, not about Smack Tripper's though.

If the 2nd tiebreak is head to head record, unless it was worded specifically otherwise that should be interpreted to mean total head to head record amongst tied teams at that point in the tiebreak.

So after step 2, you have teams A and D eliminated with 1-2 records and teams B and C continue tiebreaking.

For seeding B and C, you restart a tiebreak with just the two of them. So you would go to head to head games between just B and C. Total points would never get used in this scenario. In a multi-team tiebreak, if a team is eliminated you start back at the top, you never just continue on to the next step with the remaining teams.

This is exactly right.

This is how your rules are written.

Disagree, though there's a lot left to be desired in those posted rules.

I would argue that a tie breaker process is for 1 position at a time (which is how the NFL handles it as well). Once that position is established, you should restart the tiebreaker process for the final position with anyone still tied to see who gets it. Not sure of records based on OP, but I'm guessing that means B is in and then D, due to A being 0-2 against C and D and I'm inferring that C and D would be 1-1 with D having the win over C.

 

[T J]

I think I've seen maybe 5 logical arguments for a different order. Nice.

 

[GregR]

People are posting about their league's rules, not about Smack Tripper's though.

If the 2nd tiebreak is head to head record, unless it was worded specifically otherwise that should be interpreted to mean total head to head record amongst tied teams at that point in the tiebreak.

So after step 2, you have teams A and D eliminated with 1-2 records and teams B and C continue tiebreaking.

For seeding B and C, you restart a tiebreak with just the two of them. So you would go to head to head games between just B and C. Total points would never get used in this scenario. In a multi-team tiebreak, if a team is eliminated you start back at the top, you never just continue on to the next step with the remaining teams.

This is exactly right.

This is how your rules are written.

Disagree, though there's a lot left to be desired in those posted rules.

I would argue that a tie breaker process is for 1 position at a time (which is how the NFL handles it as well). Once that position is established, you should restart the tiebreaker process for the final position with anyone still tied to see who gets it. Not sure of records based on OP, but I'm guessing that means B is in and then D, due to A being 0-2 against C and D and I'm inferring that C and D would be 1-1 with D having the win over C.

Yep, you're right, I did it wrong. Good catch.

What I said would just give you the 1st wildcard but has nothing to do with the 2nd wildcard.

The 2nd wildcard would start a new tiebreak with all 3 remaining teams in it.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Go one step at a time and eliminate any teams you can before moving to the next step.

All teams tied at 7-6.

B & C were 2-1, A & D were 1-2 -- so A & D are eliminated.

B had more points than C and gets the spot.

 

[grateful zed]

H2H

 

[QuizGuy66]

Fantasy playoff chaos question:

Four teams, 7-6 for two wildcard slots.

League rules:

Tiebreakers:

1. Winning percentage

2. Head to head record

3. Total points

4. Divisional record

Teams in Order of descending points(no ties in total points)

Team a

Team b

Team c

Team d

Team a 1-2 vs common opponents ( with a win over team b)

Team b and c are 2-1

Team d is 1-2 (with a win over team c)

Who goes to the post?

something doesn't add up here.

1) If A is 1-2 and beat B, it must have lost to C and D.

2) But it says D is 1-2 and beat C. Which can't be true on 1).

So something is messed up.

So I have a couple questions:

1) Are all of these teams in the same division? If not, the way the NFL does it is that division ties are broken first - so only the top team in each given division goes into the tiebreak for spot. The process starts again (division ties broken first) for spot 2.

If A, B, C, and D are all in the same divison (or are all in 4 separate divisions) My other question is:

What are the 6 individual game results between the teams?

-QG

 

[zftcg]

I love the headline of this thread: "opinions needed". Because clearly, what we need to resolve this issue is the views of a bunch of anonymous moolyaks with incomplete information posting on a message board.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Step 1: Go down the list to head to head.

1a: Eliminate A and D based on head to head.

Step 2: Go back to the top of the list. Go down to head to head.

2a: If either B or C has a head-to-head advantage, give that team the first wildcard.

2b: If neither team has a head-to-head advantage, (the series was split or the teams didn't play), go to total points. B makes the playoffs.

Step 3: Go back to the top of the list. Go down to head to head.

3a: if B made the playoffs in step 2, eliminate A for sure (because it's left with an 0-2 record against remaining teams). If C has a better record in this particular round-robin than D, it wins the playoff spot outright in this step. If not, once A is eliminated, you re-run the head-to-head comparison, and D earns the final playoff spot due to the direct head-to-head win over C.

3b: If C made the playoffs in step 2, compare head-to-head records of A, B, and D. If any team has a better record, put them in. If two teams have a better record than the third, eliminate the third and start back at the top of the list for the two-team tiebreaker. If all three teams have the same head-to-head record, A makes the playoffs due to the total points tiebreaker.

So, based on the information given, I see:

If C holds the head-to-head tiebreaker over B, then the teams that make the playoffs are C (as the 5 seed) and whichever team had the best round-robin record among A, B, and D. (If two teams are tied for the best round-robin record, then it's whichever team wins that two-team tiebreaker. If all teams have the same round-robin record, A makes it based on total points.)

If B holds the head-to-head tiebreaker over C *OR* if neither team holds the head-to-head tiebreaker over the other, then the teams that make the playoffs are B, (as the 5 seed), and C, (if it has a better round-robin record among the A/C/D troika than D does), or D, (if C and D are tied in round-robin record among the A/C/D troika).

Of course, this is all provided the information that you gave us if complete and accurate. The key is just to go back to the top of the list every time anything changes and work your way back down. When in doubt, go back to the top of the list.

 

[Yenrub]

Shouldn’t you try to sort out one playoff spot at a time instead of two at once?

The NFL does something like this; only one team advances to the playoffs in any tie-breaking step. Remaining tied teams revert to the first step of the applicable tie-breaker

So figure out which of the 4 gets playoff spot #1

Then figure out which of the remaining three teams gets the #2 playoff spot as if the team that got the playoff spot #1 wasn’t involved

 

[The Dude]

The best tiebreaker is to compare scores over the 13 weeks season and whoever would have won more would go in - takes out the randomness of the time they actually played H2H.

I would do the same in multiple ties - but one team needs to have an advantage over all the others.

Then I would go most points