What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

FCC set to approve Net Neutrality rules today (1 Viewer)

Insomniac said:
guderian said:
Abraham said:
It's a big deal. NN prohibits providers and he government from regulating web content. Without it, Comcast (for example) could decide they want to block all porn to their customers....or all news sites with a liberal perspective...or all Muslim religious discussion boards....or Christian discussion boards, etc.
This is absolutely what it's NOT about. If Comcast were to block access to sites (or even slow it) customers would switch en masse to alternative providers. I've lived in my house for 12 years and today I get speeds 6x what I got when I moved in and my monthly charge hasn't budged and I can access whatever I want. So, I'm not seeing a big need for the government to step in and regulate the Internet. This rule-making has been pushed by content providers in an economic dispute with the network providers. The network providers want to charge providers that create disproportionate network demand. Net Neutrality will limit that ability, therefore, the cost of network upgrades will be borne by the consumer or they won't be made. This was marketed as keeping the Internet "free and open", but the Internet has been a huge success story in the past decade plus and it will be interesting to see how that changes now that the government has stepped in to regulate it.
What alternate providers? Comcast and the other ISPs are not just network providers they're also content providers. If I want to watch a movie I can pay Comcast $4.99 for each movie or pay $7.99 a month to Netflix to stream as many movies and TV shows as I want. (At least that's what their web site says, I don't use it). Doesn't it seem likely to you that Comcast would like regulations that would allow them to degrade Netflix so much that nobody would use it? Then they could get more people to pay their outrageous prices.
This is a blatant effort by the government to control the Internet. It's a solution in search of a problem and all of these justifications have been made up retroactively. Ask yourself these three questions:

1. Has your Internet service provider ever blocked, restricted or throttled back access to any site?

2. Have your prices increased significantly?

3. Have your connection speeds decreased?

My speeds have consistently improved at stable prices.

In terms of alternate providers, here is a link to the most recent report by the FCC on broadband access. Table 13 (page 33) breaks down the number of fixed line providers per census tract.

96.3% of tracts have at least 2 fixed line providers

81.2% have at least 3

55.5% have at least 4

And as usual, the government's data is two-years old (2008--which is why it will be interesting to see how the Internet works now that they're regulating it) and it excludes wireless competition. By the end of next year most people will also have access to at least two LTE/4G providers or WIMAX (Clearwire/Sprint).

 
Here's a grand summary of where I am with this. I'm not ignoring anything, just short on time.
Fair enough.
As a general rule, I'm against unnecessary government regulation. Further, I feel the burden of proof is on the government to show that any particular regulation/authority is necessary, rather than the other way around. That is, I shouldn't have to show why government shouldn't do something; government should have to show why it is necessary that they should do something. I don't think anyone has shown why this is necessary yet.
I am with you along the lines that government regulation needs to be proven that it is factually needed to protect an entity(ies) before moving forward. However in this case, going as far back as 2007, proof has been provided in my opinion.
The Comcast/Level3 thing is totally irrelevant to me, so anyone pointing to that isn't showing why government needs to step in. Ditto for AT&T, Comcast, or any other provider limiting consumers to certain amounts of GB per month. In most places, there are multiple options for internet access. True, there may only be one "cable internet" provider, but there are other options (e.g. DSL, satellite, etc.). The argument that "those aren't as good as cable" is a bad one. That's like arguing that Pepsi isn't as good as Coke, and therefore, government should be able to regulate how much Coke can charge because they have a monopoly on Coke. More to the point, even if there are locations where there is only one option, I think any regulation should come in the form of government regulating the local monopoly (e.g. making sure the local monopoly isn't using their monopoly status to overcharge its customers), not "regulating the internet federally".
The Comcast/Level3 issue was cited as a sort of proof of concept in conjunction with the other instances to show how providers can implement unfair practices and why they should be limited in their ability to unfairly dictate rules on the fly. Providers still hold the right to limit usage on their networks through new Terms of Service, this hasn't change and neither has their ability to charge for usage on whatever scale they see fit, as long as the customers are provided that information from the outset, so this argument is moot. Additionally I see this action by the FCC as really nothing more than forcing the issue to the forefront and requiring that it be addressed instead of some clandestine attempt at regulating the internet.
To date, the only instance that anyone has offered in this thread that comes close to a net neutrality argument is the BitTorrent thing, and from what I read in the articles posted, even those allegations were iffy.
I think this might come down to you not fully understanding what Comcast was doing, which I have seen first hand. If memory serves you are more of a legal expert than a technologies/InfoSec guy.
Back to the FCC, my issue with them doing anything in this area is one of the slippery slope principle. Once they've asserted their ability to regulate in this area and it goes unchallenged, I think it's a short step for them to go the next step and tell the carriers that they must block/deprioritize/report certain sites (e.g. gambling, drugs, etc.).
Once again we can agree that any and all slippery slopes need to be avoided. Though this is not truly one of those instances as others are so aggressively trying to claim. The FCC has not put itself into a position of power over content regulation with this ruling, nor have they provided themselves a future backdoor into greater regulation over internet usage, content, delivery or any other items and structures to include pricing. The ruling is very straight forward, and while they might not have had the outright oversight as provided them with other media such as air or POTS, they adapted those rights to internet services in such a way that they could protect not just consumers but also the service and content providers to provide fair and unfettered access unless explicitly outlined within a service agreement. If you are worried about any entity attempting to block/de-prioritize/report any sights you should be talking a long and hard look at the most invasive and uncontrolled organization created, DHS.Schlzm
 
The Comcast/Level3 thing is totally irrelevant to me, so anyone pointing to that isn't showing why government needs to step in. Ditto for AT&T, Comcast, or any other provider limiting consumers to certain amounts of GB per month. In most places, there are multiple options for internet access. True, there may only be one "cable internet" provider, but there are other options (e.g. DSL, satellite, etc.). The argument that "those aren't as good as cable" is a bad one. That's like arguing that Pepsi isn't as good as Coke, and therefore, government should be able to regulate how much Coke can charge because they have a monopoly on Coke. More to the point, even if there are locations where there is only one option, I think any regulation should come in the form of government regulating the local monopoly (e.g. making sure the local monopoly isn't using their monopoly status to overcharge its customers), not "regulating the internet federally".
The Comcast/Level3 issue was cited as a sort of proof of concept in conjunction with the other instances to show how providers can implement unfair practices and why they should be limited in their ability to unfairly dictate rules on the fly. Providers still hold the right to limit usage on their networks through new Terms of Service, this hasn't change and neither has their ability to charge for usage on whatever scale they see fit, as long as the customers are provided that information from the outset, so this argument is moot. Additionally I see this action by the FCC as really nothing more than forcing the issue to the forefront and requiring that it be addressed instead of some clandestine attempt at regulating the internet.
I still don't see any way that the Comcast/Level3 issue relates to net neutrality, nor do I see how it works even as a proof of concept on how providers implement unfair practices or change rules on the fly. As I understand this issue, the existing peering agreement between Comcast and Level3 was/is expiring and it is thus time to negotiate a new one. Comcast wants more money than they used to because Level3 is using more bandwidth than they used to. Level3 then attempted to publicly frame the issue as "Comcast is denying Netflix traffic", even though that's the furthest thing from the truth.
To date, the only instance that anyone has offered in this thread that comes close to a net neutrality argument is the BitTorrent thing, and from what I read in the articles posted, even those allegations were iffy.
I think this might come down to you not fully understanding what Comcast was doing, which I have seen first hand. If memory serves you are more of a legal expert than a technologies/InfoSec guy.
I'm in technology, but I don't know much about the details of protocols, torrents, downloads, etc. Again, from what I read in the articles, Comcast may have been doing something illegal under the existing laws (although the allegations weren't proven or admitted to), and a lawsuit under existing laws engineered a settlement. Had there not been a settlement, the lawsuit may have succeeded in proving Comcast did something underhanded/illegal. Regardless, it appears that the outcome was satisfactory without the need for new FCC regulations.In total, I still don't think the government has met the burden of proof that this new authority is necessary. I'm not suggesting it will never be necessary, or that we shouldn't ever regulate the carriers (or content providers, for that matter), simply that it's not necessary or advisable today.Re: your DHS comment, I'm absolutely on board with you that the DHS is way overboard in a lot of areas. However, just because they do it doesn't mean the FCC should too.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The Comcast/Level3 thing is totally irrelevant to me, so anyone pointing to that isn't showing why government needs to step in. Ditto for AT&T, Comcast, or any other provider limiting consumers to certain amounts of GB per month. In most places, there are multiple options for internet access. True, there may only be one "cable internet" provider, but there are other options (e.g. DSL, satellite, etc.). The argument that "those aren't as good as cable" is a bad one. That's like arguing that Pepsi isn't as good as Coke, and therefore, government should be able to regulate how much Coke can charge because they have a monopoly on Coke. More to the point, even if there are locations where there is only one option, I think any regulation should come in the form of government regulating the local monopoly (e.g. making sure the local monopoly isn't using their monopoly status to overcharge its customers), not "regulating the internet federally".
The Comcast/Level3 issue was cited as a sort of proof of concept in conjunction with the other instances to show how providers can implement unfair practices and why they should be limited in their ability to unfairly dictate rules on the fly. Providers still hold the right to limit usage on their networks through new Terms of Service, this hasn't change and neither has their ability to charge for usage on whatever scale they see fit, as long as the customers are provided that information from the outset, so this argument is moot. Additionally I see this action by the FCC as really nothing more than forcing the issue to the forefront and requiring that it be addressed instead of some clandestine attempt at regulating the internet.
I still don't see any way that the Comcast/Level3 issue relates to net neutrality, nor do I see how it works even as a proof of concept on how providers implement unfair practices or change rules on the fly. As I understand this issue, the existing peering agreement between Comcast and Level3 was/is expiring and it is thus time to negotiate a new one. Comcast wants more money than they used to because Level3 is using more bandwidth than they used to. Level3 then attempted to publicly frame the issue as "Comcast is denying Netflix traffic", even though that's the furthest thing from the truth.
To date, the only instance that anyone has offered in this thread that comes close to a net neutrality argument is the BitTorrent thing, and from what I read in the articles posted, even those allegations were iffy.
I think this might come down to you not fully understanding what Comcast was doing, which I have seen first hand. If memory serves you are more of a legal expert than a technologies/InfoSec guy.
I'm in technology, but I don't know much about the details of protocols, torrents, downloads, etc. Again, from what I read in the articles, Comcast may have been doing something illegal under the existing laws (although the allegations weren't proven or admitted to), and a lawsuit under existing laws engineered a settlement. Had there not been a settlement, the lawsuit may have succeeded in proving Comcast did something underhanded/illegal. Regardless, it appears that the outcome was satisfactory without the need for new FCC regulations.In total, I still don't think the government has met the burden of proof that this new authority is necessary. I'm not suggesting it will never be necessary, or that we shouldn't ever regulate the carriers (or content providers, for that matter), simply that it's not necessary or advisable today.Re: your DHS comment, I'm absolutely on board with you that the DHS is way overboard in a lot of areas. However, just because they do it doesn't mean the FCC should too.
I can accept your stance on this possibly not being the right thing right now, while I think that the evidence in total as to carriers actions so far forced the issue since it was not going to be heard in congress any time soon. Maybe the FCC isn't the correct way to go about this, however I still commend them for getting this out in the public with the ruling and also being able to maintain restraint with the ruling itself and making it weak enough to avoid harm but with just enough force to prevent unfair practices from continuing. I would be more than happy to actually see this go before congress and an actual law be made either dictating levels of oversight or mandating a fair usage package for standard communications lines. However as some in this thread have been stating, ignoring the issue would not have been solved via the free market, even with a single settled lawsuit in the books, the abuses would have continued until it boiled over and eventually I think a more kneejerk ruling would have been the outcome and ultimately worse for everyone involved. Schlzm
 
For those who haven't actually read the ruling or fully understand what this means, here;

The three new rules, which will go into effect early next year, force ISPs to be transparent about how they handle network congestion, prohibit them from blocking traffic such as Skype on wired networks, and outlaw “unreasonable” discrimination on those networks, meaning they can’t put a competing online video service in the slow lane to benefit their own video services.
Now I will happily field any question or accusations about how this is the beginning of the end and that next thing we know the only sites we will be able to visit will be those on the federally mandated whitelist created by powerhungry bureaucrats behind closed doors without any public knowledge or say.Schlzm

 
For those who haven't actually read the ruling or fully understand what this means, here;

The three new rules, which will go into effect early next year, force ISPs to be transparent about how they handle network congestion, prohibit them from blocking traffic such as Skype on wired networks, and outlaw “unreasonable” discrimination on those networks, meaning they can’t put a competing online video service in the slow lane to benefit their own video services.
Now I will happily field any question or accusations about how this is the beginning of the end and that next thing we know the only sites we will be able to visit will be those on the federally mandated whitelist created by powerhungry bureaucrats behind closed doors without any public knowledge or say.Schlzm
This is my favorite line of the article.
The FCC’s order is a milestone in the multiyear battle over so-called “net neutrality,” which is the principle that broadband service providers shouldn’t be able to interfere with or block web traffic, or favor their own services at the expense of smaller rivals. Without net neutrality — which ensures that everyone has open access to the internet — revolutionary web startups like Google, Facebook and Twitter may never have gotten off the ground, proponents argue.
Man I wish we had net neutrality before so that we could have had Google, FB and Twitter. Oh wait... we do. Yet we had no net neutrality legislation. How did those companies ever get started then? Hmmm... Thank god the government is here now to ensure that the the net is neutral.
 
bueno said:
Unlucky said:
bueno said:
I don't fully understand thew argument either way, but I don't trust the government enough to believe they are acting in our best interests.
Do you think Comcast or other large companies will act in the best interests of the citizens of the United States? I'm not saying they'll screw over the citizens outright, but anytime a company uses monopolistic practices to decrease competition, the consumer loses out.
Is Comcast a monopoly?
In some ways, yes. If I want reliable, high-speed internet, I have to get Comcast. Yes, I could get DSL or Satellite, but they are either slower or less reliable to an extent that is not OK with me. Comcast owns the cable lines going into my residence. I don't have a fiber-optic network option.
 
bueno said:
Unlucky said:
bueno said:
I don't fully understand thew argument either way, but I don't trust the government enough to believe they are acting in our best interests.
Do you think Comcast or other large companies will act in the best interests of the citizens of the United States? I'm not saying they'll screw over the citizens outright, but anytime a company uses monopolistic practices to decrease competition, the consumer loses out.
Is Comcast a monopoly?
In some ways, yes. If I want reliable, high-speed internet, I have to get Comcast. Yes, I could get DSL or Satellite, but they are either slower or less reliable to an extent that is not OK with me. Comcast owns the cable lines going into my residence. I don't have a fiber-optic network option.
That's like saying that Coke is a monopoly because Pepsi and RC Cola taste bad. There are other options, you just don't prefer them.
 
bueno said:
Unlucky said:
bueno said:
I don't fully understand thew argument either way, but I don't trust the government enough to believe they are acting in our best interests.
Do you think Comcast or other large companies will act in the best interests of the citizens of the United States? I'm not saying they'll screw over the citizens outright, but anytime a company uses monopolistic practices to decrease competition, the consumer loses out.
Is Comcast a monopoly?
In some ways, yes. If I want reliable, high-speed internet, I have to get Comcast. Yes, I could get DSL or Satellite, but they are either slower or less reliable to an extent that is not OK with me. Comcast owns the cable lines going into my residence. I don't have a fiber-optic network option.
That's like saying that Coke is a monopoly because Pepsi and RC Cola taste bad. There are other options, you just don't prefer them.
Or you HAVE TO HAVE a Maserati because its faster and has better performance than a Mustang. Both will take you where you need to go in a pretty reasonable time but you prefer the Maseratti.
 
bueno said:
Unlucky said:
Do you think Comcast or other large companies will act in the best interests of the citizens of the United States? I'm not saying they'll screw over the citizens outright, but anytime a company uses monopolistic practices to decrease competition, the consumer loses out.
Is Comcast a monopoly?
In some ways, yes. If I want reliable, high-speed internet, I have to get Comcast. Yes, I could get DSL or Satellite, but they are either slower or less reliable to an extent that is not OK with me. Comcast owns the cable lines going into my residence. I don't have a fiber-optic network option.
That's like saying that Coke is a monopoly because Pepsi and RC Cola taste bad. There are other options, you just don't prefer them.
Or you HAVE TO HAVE a Maserati because its faster and has better performance than a Mustang. Both will take you where you need to go in a pretty reasonable time but you prefer the Maseratti.
Really? This is what you're going with? Comcast can do whatever it please because dialup is still around? Nevermind that in the middle of your term with Comcast they suddenly decide to shut off your service yet still charge you the full month that you are legally obligated to pay, because hey next month you can just dust off that ol' 56k and teach them a lesson with your wallet right?Schlzm

 
bueno said:
Unlucky said:
bueno said:
I don't fully understand thew argument either way, but I don't trust the government enough to believe they are acting in our best interests.
Do you think Comcast or other large companies will act in the best interests of the citizens of the United States? I'm not saying they'll screw over the citizens outright, but anytime a company uses monopolistic practices to decrease competition, the consumer loses out.
Is Comcast a monopoly?
In some ways, yes. If I want reliable, high-speed internet, I have to get Comcast. Yes, I could get DSL or Satellite, but they are either slower or less reliable to an extent that is not OK with me. Comcast owns the cable lines going into my residence. I don't have a fiber-optic network option.
That's like saying that Coke is a monopoly because Pepsi and RC Cola taste bad. There are other options, you just don't prefer them.
Yes and no. There are other options, but what if those other options don't really work as well and are thus not useful? It's not a question of taste or preference, but a question of performance. Perhaps an analogy that there is only one car dealer, but several moped dealers? If I want a car, I have one choice, but I could still find transportation through the moped dealers.
 
Here's the bottom line: I want the FCC to have the authority to regulate the service providers in a way that ensures that the service providers do not block, alter, or purposely slow down connection speeds to any website. I want the FCC to have my back in keeping the internet open and free. If the FCC does not have this authority, then who does? If the answer is nobody, and that I should change service providers if I don't like mine, then I am not OK with that.

 
Really? This is what you're going with? Comcast can do whatever it please because dialup is still around? Nevermind that in the middle of your term with Comcast they suddenly decide to shut off your service yet still charge you the full month that you are legally obligated to pay, because hey next month you can just dust off that ol' 56k and teach them a lesson with your wallet right?Schlzm
Who said 56k? I'm talking DSL. Still high speed. Just not as high a speed as some would like. Plus, who said that they will be shutting off my service? We have a contract and there are terms. Not sure what angle you're going for now.In my analogy above, Maseratti is Cable and Mustang is DSL. 56k would be like using a child's power wheels.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Really? This is what you're going with? Comcast can do whatever it please because dialup is still around? Nevermind that in the middle of your term with Comcast they suddenly decide to shut off your service yet still charge you the full month that you are legally obligated to pay, because hey next month you can just dust off that ol' 56k and teach them a lesson with your wallet right?Schlzm
Who said 56k? I'm talking DSL. Still high speed. Just not as high a speed as some would like. Plus, who said that they will be shutting off my service? We have a contract and there are terms. Not sure what angle you're going for now.In my analogy above, Maseratti is Cable and Mustang is DSL. 56k would be like using a child's power wheels.
Well your only options are dial-up or cable because you happen to live in a low service geographical region, and your cable just got shut off because the provider decided you were using too much bandwidth without ever notifying you of any limit. This has happened, so enjoy waiting five minutes for your email to load. Well I guess you could always just move somewhere that provides more options....Schlzm
 
For those who haven't actually read the ruling or fully understand what this means, here;

The three new rules, which will go into effect early next year, force ISPs to be transparent about how they handle network congestion, prohibit them from blocking traffic such as Skype on wired networks, and outlaw “unreasonable” discrimination on those networks, meaning they can’t put a competing online video service in the slow lane to benefit their own video services.
Now I will happily field any question or accusations about how this is the beginning of the end and that next thing we know the only sites we will be able to visit will be those on the federally mandated whitelist created by powerhungry bureaucrats behind closed doors without any public knowledge or say.Schlzm
1. Things have been just fine for the last decade. I've paid $40/month for the past 12 years and my speeds are about 6x what they were when I first got the service. Also, in the last decade maybe 60 million households have gotten broadband service. This hardly looks to be an area that's screaming for government intervention to 'fix'. 2. Telecom companies have spent tens of billions of dollars upgrading their networks--telecom spending has been a bright spot even through the recession. Now that the government has a toehold in telling them what they can/can't do with these networks how does that factor in to their incentive to invest?

3. The importance in this legislation isn't the headline proclamations, but the following and on-going rule-making process. Think about the Telecom Act of 1996 that led to a boom/bubble in telecom start-ups and network builds only to end up in a crash as the details in the rules were "tweaked". The big telecom companies remember that and they'll be incredibly hesitant to keep investing in networks that now have the threat of essentially becoming privatized as the last mile was in the '96 Act.

4. Slippery slope. The next time the government begins regulating an activity and stops will be the first time.

5. This was a solution in search of a problem.

 
Really? This is what you're going with? Comcast can do whatever it please because dialup is still around? Nevermind that in the middle of your term with Comcast they suddenly decide to shut off your service yet still charge you the full month that you are legally obligated to pay, because hey next month you can just dust off that ol' 56k and teach them a lesson with your wallet right?Schlzm
Who said 56k? I'm talking DSL. Still high speed. Just not as high a speed as some would like. Plus, who said that they will be shutting off my service? We have a contract and there are terms. Not sure what angle you're going for now.In my analogy above, Maseratti is Cable and Mustang is DSL. 56k would be like using a child's power wheels.
Well your only options are dial-up or cable because you happen to live in a low service geographical region, and your cable just got shut off because the provider decided you were using too much bandwidth without ever notifying you of any limit. This has happened, so enjoy waiting five minutes for your email to load. Well I guess you could always just move somewhere that provides more options....Schlzm
Clearwire... LTE...
 
Here's the bottom line: I want the FCC to have the authority to regulate the service providers in a way that ensures that the service providers do not block, alter, or purposely slow down connection speeds to any website. I want the FCC to have my back in keeping the internet open and free. If the FCC does not have this authority, then who does? If the answer is nobody, and that I should change service providers if I don't like mine, then I am not OK with that.
:thumbdown:
 
Really? This is what you're going with? Comcast can do whatever it please because dialup is still around? Nevermind that in the middle of your term with Comcast they suddenly decide to shut off your service yet still charge you the full month that you are legally obligated to pay, because hey next month you can just dust off that ol' 56k and teach them a lesson with your wallet right?Schlzm
I was just answering the question of whether Comcast is a monopoly, unrelated to any net neutrality issues. Fact is, if Unlucky can get satellite or DSL, he has other options and Comcast isn't a monopoly.
 
Really? This is what you're going with? Comcast can do whatever it please because dialup is still around? Nevermind that in the middle of your term with Comcast they suddenly decide to shut off your service yet still charge you the full month that you are legally obligated to pay, because hey next month you can just dust off that ol' 56k and teach them a lesson with your wallet right?

Schlzm
Who said 56k? I'm talking DSL. Still high speed. Just not as high a speed as some would like. Plus, who said that they will be shutting off my service? We have a contract and there are terms. Not sure what angle you're going for now.In my analogy above, Maseratti is Cable and Mustang is DSL. 56k would be like using a child's power wheels.
Well your only options are dial-up or cable because you happen to live in a low service geographical region, and your cable just got shut off because the provider decided you were using too much bandwidth without ever notifying you of any limit. This has happened, so enjoy waiting five minutes for your email to load. Well I guess you could always just move somewhere that provides more options....Schlzm
Clearwire...
Hrm, doesn't seem viable except for those who live in a major metropolitan area...http://www.clear.com/coverage

I guess you are in great shape if you live in Germany?http://www.3gpp.org/GCF-Certification-for-LTE-Devices

Schlzm

 
http://www.slate.com/id/2278626/pagenum/all/

Whose Internet Is It, Anyway?

The FCC's new "net neutrality" rules only muddle the picture.

By Jack Shafer

Posted Tuesday, Dec. 21, 2010, at 5:42 PM ET

The Federal Communications Commission has reinvigorated the "net neutrality" debate with its approval today of new rules governing Internet access. (The actual rules have yet to be released to the public.) Reportedly, the broadband companies that drop wires into your home to provide Internet service—like Comcast and Charter, for example—will be prohibited from blocking services and applications and from engaging in the "unreasonable discrimination" of data delivery. Wireless Internet providers will face less stringent rules.

Does the FCC have the power to issue such dictates? A federal court ruled 3-0 last May that the commission had overstepped its authority when it told Comcast not to slow file-sharing-network traffic to users, so its powers are in question. Both the Washington Post and New York Times predict a future court date for the new rules. The Post calls it likely that the Republican-controlled House of Representatives will also attempt to gut the rules.

The FCC's sense of urgency may befuddle you. After all, the many-colored, hydra-headed, and infernally useful beast that is the U.S. Internet came into being without government demands and decrees. Without commandments from the FCC or anybody else, American broadband companies invested tens of billions of dollars to create an Internet infrastructure for their customers.

The FCC is not motivated by any screwing the broadband companies have given customers. Even the throttling of Comcast customers' file-sharing connection can be interpreted as pro-consumer if it was initiated to prevent one set of users from hogging bandwidth to the detriment of others. What grieves the FCC is the screwing the broadband industry might deliver. FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski said as much in his prepared remarks, in which he decried the lack of enforceable rules, processes, and means of recourse for citizens seeking to protect Internet innovators, consumers, and speakers. He speaks of wanting to keep the Internet free and open, but he's silent on exactly what grand sins the Internet industry has committed.

The best Genachowski can come up with is the "leverage" existing broadband providers have over innovators and new entrepreneurs. Like the characters in Philip K. ****'s short story "The Minority Report," Internet providers are guilty of pre-crimes, i.e., crimes that the FCC thinks they're destined to commit, and should be shackled before they can actually commit them.

Please, don't take me for a corporate apologist: I would punch my Internet provider, Comcast, in the face for its lies, poor service, and general hamfistedness if it had a face to punch. And from what I can tell from my neighbors' experience, I'd throw the same punch at Verizon if I had a Fios account. The broadband companies are not angels. But before we lock them up, clip their wings, and blind them, we might want to demand a little more proof of their wrongdoing.

In a critique of the FCC plan published by the Atlantic today, scholars David J. Farber and Gerald R. Faulhaber surmise that the commission wants to prohibit Internet providers from charging for the expedited delivery of bits and bytes. But why should they be barred from setting a premium price to fast-track for Google or Netflix, the authors complain, when the U.S. Postal Service does just that with express-mail delivery.

Indeed, why should it be the feds' business if Comcast—which is in the video-delivery business—demands a premium from other video-streaming companies, such as Google and Netflix, for access to the pipes it built? Allowing the government to dictate those terms is tantamount to resurrecting the Interstate Commerce Commission and vesting in it the power to tell Federal Express what prices to charge for delivering packages.

Would any of the companies currently in the broadband game have built their systems without the expectation that they could "leverage" their investment? I doubt it. Do they lust for an Internet environment that imprisons us in their "walled garden" and bleeds us for every penny during our stay? Of course they do. But then why—in the absence of FCC regulatory powers to ban such Internet land-grabs—haven't the broadband providers erected such walled gardens? Because 1) they face competition from another broadband provider and don't want to give their customers an incentive to leave, or 2) where they're the only broadband provider, they tend not to want to give a potential competitor encouragement to enter their market.

Even the staunchest net neutrality advocate will concede that net neutrality is a fuzzy concept. No network can be purely neutral. If the current Internet didn't prioritize some traffic at the expense of other traffic, the whole enterprise would grind to a halt like Manhattan's streets when the stoplights stop working.

So the basic question here is who will set the Internet's priorities, the government or the providers. That I have an innate distrust for government should surprise no regular readers. Traditionally, the state censors and marginalizes voices while private businesses tend to remain tolerant. Even at the height of the rebellions of the 1960s and early 1970s, political radicals and social radicals could always find printers to publish their most sordid, seditious, and sensational material. But that's only because there was no FCC control over who could own and operate a printing press, no control over what prices they could charge for their services, and no state commandment that they had to accept any print job. The only times the FCC has spurred debate and commentary have been when it has stepped out of the way.

If the FCC is as keen about encouraging Internet innovation and entrepreneurship and forestalling censorship as its chairman claims to be, there is a smarter policy framework to pursue. First, the FCC should avoid cementing the current broadband monopolies and duopolies into place by encouraging new entrants. One way to encourage new land-based Internet providers would be to replace municipal- and state-franchise laws, which extract concessions and cash from cable systems and telephone companies for the right to string line, with a federal-franchise system that simplifies the process—and can't shake the new entrants down or otherwise impede them.

On the wireless side, the FCC would be wiser to continue on the course it set a few years ago by easing the reallocation of spectrum originally given to television to mobile broadband. That earlier reallocation made possible the wireless Internet provider Clearwire, which is just rolling out in many places in the country. Additional spectrum deregulation would help create more competition. For instance, if TV stations want to exit the TV business and repurpose their spectrum to Internet service, the FCC should step off.

While I dread the hassles and unintended consequences of corporate control of the Internet, I dread the intended consequences of a controlling FCC much, much more.
 
I guess you are in great shape if you live in Germany?http://www.3gpp.org/GCF-Certification-for-LTE-Devices

Schlzm
Verizon LTE Coverage MapAT&T HSPA Coverage Soon to be Upgrade to LTE

Clearwire/Sprint 4G (Wimax) Coverage Map (Just raised $1 B to build-out more)

T-Mobile 4G Coverage (click 'Check Your 4G Coverage')

Clearwire's just the largest of many fixed wireless providers. All of these providers are in addition to the 81% of the country that has access to 3 or more fixed line providers according to old FCC 2008 data. I've had a $40/month Verizon 3G data card since 2005 and I was able to use it in some pretty small towns since then.

That will all pretty much cover 80-90% of the US. If you want to live 10 miles from the nearest town, you've already accepted the trade-offs so you shouldn't expect to have numerous options for speedy Internet service.

I'd guess that at least 80% of the people in the US will have at least 5 options for high speed Internet access by the end of 2011. This Net Neutrality is a solution in search of a problem.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I guess you are in great shape if you live in Germany?http://www.3gpp.org/GCF-Certification-for-LTE-Devices

Schlzm
Verizon LTE Coverage MapAT&T HSPA Coverage Soon to be Upgrade to LTE

Clearwire/Sprint 4G (Wimax) Coverage Map (Just raised $1 B to build-out more)

T-Mobile 4G Coverage (click 'Check Your 4G Coverage')

Clearwire's just the largest of many fixed wireless providers. All of these providers are in addition to the 81% of the country that has access to 3 or more fixed line providers according to old FCC 2008 data. I've had a $40/month Verizon 3G data card since 2005 and I was able to use it in some pretty small towns since then.

That will all pretty much cover 80-90% of the US. If you want to live 10 miles from the nearest town, you've already accepted the trade-offs so you shouldn't expect to have numerous options for speedy Internet service.

I'd guess that at least 80% of the people in the US will have at least 5 options for high speed Internet access by the end of 2011. This Net Neutrality is a solution in search of a problem.
http://network4g.verizonwireless.com/#/coverage - Not really massive coverage if you ask me, about half the country is left out. http://techland.time.com/2010/12/06/consum...rvice-provider/ - That sounds promising.

I already showed how limited the clearwire coverage is, so nothing exciting there...

http://coverage.t-mobile.com/Default.aspx - Maybe a third of the country has a data option? I have T-Mobile, no 3g at my house and in many sections of my daily commute I don't even have voice or text.

There were problems that the FCC specifically addressed that pushed this which have been covered in this thread. Though like I said earlier, if you want options and a fast, reliable internet service just move right? What's the big deal? It's not hard to just up and relocate on a whim.

Schlzm

 
I guess you are in great shape if you live in Germany?http://www.3gpp.org/GCF-Certification-for-LTE-Devices

Schlzm
Verizon LTE Coverage MapAT&T HSPA Coverage Soon to be Upgrade to LTE

Clearwire/Sprint 4G (Wimax) Coverage Map (Just raised $1 B to build-out more)

T-Mobile 4G Coverage (click 'Check Your 4G Coverage')

Clearwire's just the largest of many fixed wireless providers. All of these providers are in addition to the 81% of the country that has access to 3 or more fixed line providers according to old FCC 2008 data. I've had a $40/month Verizon 3G data card since 2005 and I was able to use it in some pretty small towns since then.

That will all pretty much cover 80-90% of the US. If you want to live 10 miles from the nearest town, you've already accepted the trade-offs so you shouldn't expect to have numerous options for speedy Internet service.

I'd guess that at least 80% of the people in the US will have at least 5 options for high speed Internet access by the end of 2011. This Net Neutrality is a solution in search of a problem.
http://network4g.verizonwireless.com/#/coverage - Not really massive coverage if you ask me, about half the country is left out. http://techland.time.com/2010/12/06/consum...rvice-provider/ - That sounds promising.

I already showed how limited the clearwire coverage is, so nothing exciting there...

http://coverage.t-mobile.com/Default.aspx - Maybe a third of the country has a data option? I have T-Mobile, no 3g at my house and in many sections of my daily commute I don't even have voice or text.

There were problems that the FCC specifically addressed that pushed this which have been covered in this thread. Though like I said earlier, if you want options and a fast, reliable internet service just move right? What's the big deal? It's not hard to just up and relocate on a whim.

Schlzm
You seem to be dug in pretty hard on this issue, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you want to have 100% geographical coverage of the US I'm guessing it would probably cost north of $1 trillion. Even if you casually dismiss Verizon, T-Mobile and Clearwire's 4G coverage as one-third to half of the country you're missing several points:1. This is 4G and 3G has coverage of 80-90% of the population.

2. These networks are in the process of being rolled out and 4G coverage of half of the country now means 70-80% by the end of 2011.

3. These coverage maps aren't 100% over-lapping. If you don't get T-Mobile 3G at your house, then use someone else. If you live somewhere where there's only 1 fixed wireline provider (<2% of the US per old FCC data) and there aren't any 3G wireless options, then you're already living somewhere where you've accepted limited access to services.

So far I've given you hard stats that show:

1. 81% of the country has accessed to 3 or more fixed line broadband providers.

2. 80-90% of the country already has access to at least one 3G provider. I've used it in non-urban/suburban areas of Texas, California, Michigan, Alabama, etc. Heck, I used it in Orange, Texas back in 2005.

3. At least half of the country CURRENTLY has access to at least one 4G provider.

If you're going to continue to just dig your heels in and adamantly argue that any significant portion of the population has access to only 1 or 2 options, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. :lmao:

Enjoy your government regulated Internet. I'm sure it will be much freer, more open, cheaper and speedier than it is now. :blackdot: I'm also sure it will be more ubiquitous because the big telecom providers were surely waiting for government regulation to invest in further expanding their networks into all of these places where you say there aren't any options.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Indeed, why should it be the feds' business if Comcast—which is in the video-delivery business—demands a premium from other video-streaming companies, such as Google and Netflix, for access to the pipes it built? Allowing the government to dictate those terms is tantamount to resurrecting the Interstate Commerce Commission and vesting in it the power to tell Federal Express what prices to charge for delivering packages.
From the slate article above ...here is the problem with the issue..when anyone(FedEx, USPS, DHL, UPS) wants to deliver a package to my house they can - no one charges a toll down the street from my house - or on my block to get the package to to me - everyone can drive 25-30mph to get here. Nor do they charge a fee to allow FedEx to drive faster to get here than UPS - I get to decide who gets here faster because the streets are clear - and when a new competitor to FedEx comes around they don't have to pay extra to compete with Fedex who is allowed to go faster - I get more choices.They are going to make sure ESPN website and content can get to me faster than Footballguys because ESPN can afford to do that. Somewhere on the internet a new fantasy football owner wants some news and says - this ESPN is faster than Footballguys and sticks with ESPN. It's all 1's and 0's to me - I want my 1's and 0's to get here to me at the same speed whether it's from Footballguys or ESPN - at the download rate I paid for it - not decided by the rate Comcast wants to charge Footballguys or ESPN.
 
[You seem to be dug in pretty hard on this issue, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you want to have 100% geographical coverage of the US I'm guessing it would probably cost north of $1 trillion. Even if you casually dismiss Verizon, T-Mobile and Clearwire's 4G coverage as one-third to half of the country you're missing several points:

1. This is 4G and 3G has coverage of 80-90% of the population. I'll just have to give it to you that you are very forward thinking and are optimistic about future coverage so I guess that's good, I am thinking current term options which aren't as wonderful as the maps are made out to be, there are dead spots in several of the major cities I a travel in regularly.

2. These networks are in the process of being rolled out and 4G coverage of half of the country now means 70-80% by the end of 2011.

3. These coverage maps aren't 100% over-lapping. If you don't get T-Mobile 3G at your house, then use someone else. If you live somewhere where there's only 1 fixed wireline provider (<2% of the US per old FCC data) and there aren't any 3G wireless options, then you're already living somewhere where you've accepted limited access to services. I am, Comcast for my internet. You're telling me that if Comcast screws me over and T-Mobile doesn't offer data coverage I have to make two major changes instead of just being provided the heads up of my usage contract before hand?

So far I've given you hard stats that show:

1. 81% of the country has accessed to 3 or more fixed line broadband providers.

2. 80-90% of the country already has access to at least one 3G provider. I've used it in non-urban/suburban areas of Texas, California, Michigan, Alabama, etc. Heck, I used it in Orange, Texas back in 2005.

3. At least half of the country CURRENTLY has access to at least one 4G provider.

If you're going to continue to just dig your heels in and adamantly argue that any significant portion of the population has access to only 1 or 2 options, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. :shrug:

Enjoy your government regulated Internet. I'm sure it will be much freer, more open, cheaper and speedier than it is now. :) I'm also sure it will be more ubiquitous because the big telecom providers were surely waiting for government regulation to invest in further expanding their networks into all of these places where you say there aren't any options.
I am going to dig in my heels that the net neutrality ruling looks out for those who don't have the options available to them, nevermind having to deal with contract termination disputes or other potential issues. You seem hellbent on finding a way to make this ruling out to be some tyrannical move by the FCC when it simply isn't, and the only backup you have to this mindset is pure speculation while myself and others have provided evidence as to not only the actual ruling and what it does but how it is a net positive for both consumer and company alike alongside the driving factors behind it. Also this false theory that because a provider can no longer perform traffic shaping, throttling or disconnection of service on the fly without having it predefined in their contract has been pulled out of thin air with absolutely no factual support. Schlzm

 
I guess it's fair to say that Comcast isn't a monopoly. I'm sure the other options, such as wireless access, will get better in the future. Fiber Optic coverage is nearby my neighborhood, but not in it. If my provider (Comcast) is going to limit speeds of certain sites I visit, how would I really know that? Wouldn't I think that site is running slow today? Maybe I'd be mildly annoyed, but maybe I'd stop going to that site after awhile?

I find it hard to say that it's good for the consumer in the long run if network providers are not regulated at all. Shouldn't someone have some regulatory authority over them? I'm not asking for strangling regulations or government to dictate terms, but rather some governing body with authority to enforce rules that promote a fair and competitive marketplace. That's my general take on regulation: rules that ensure a fair and competitive marketplace. Without that, companies will screw consumers and screw each other in order to make money.

 
I am going to dig in my heels that the net neutrality ruling looks out for those who don't have the options available to them, nevermind having to deal with contract termination disputes or other potential issues. You seem hellbent on finding a way to make this ruling out to be some tyrannical move by the FCC when it simply isn't, and the only backup you have to this mindset is pure speculation while myself and others have provided evidence as to not only the actual ruling and what it does but how it is a net positive for both consumer and company alike alongside the driving factors behind it. Also this false theory that because a provider can no longer perform traffic shaping, throttling or disconnection of service on the fly without having it predefined in their contract has been pulled out of thin air with absolutely no factual support.

Schlzm
Much like the theory that the internet wasn't free and open before Net Neutrality and the benevolent FCC stepped in. :goodposting: It really comes down to an ideological view. Those that want the government to protect them from private industry and those that prefer the government stay out of the way and let the market decide itself. Government intervention is needed in certain situations where a major problem has occured that is affecting a vast majority of people where logistically, private industry couldn't handle it. This is nowhere near that level.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I am going to dig in my heels that the net neutrality ruling looks out for those who don't have the options available to them, nevermind having to deal with contract termination disputes or other potential issues. You seem hellbent on finding a way to make this ruling out to be some tyrannical move by the FCC when it simply isn't, and the only backup you have to this mindset is pure speculation while myself and others have provided evidence as to not only the actual ruling and what it does but how it is a net positive for both consumer and company alike alongside the driving factors behind it. Also this false theory that because a provider can no longer perform traffic shaping, throttling or disconnection of service on the fly without having it predefined in their contract has been pulled out of thin air with absolutely no factual support.

Schlzm
Much like the theory that the internet wasn't free and open before Net Neutrality and the benevolent FCC stepped in. :rolleyes: It really comes down to an ideological view. Those that want the government to protect them from private industry and those that prefer the government stay out of the way and let the market decide itself. Government intervention is needed in certain situations where a major problem has occured that is affecting a vast majority of people where logistically, private industry couldn't handle it. This is nowhere near that level.
Only because you have refused to apparently even view th evidence provided. Out of everyone in this thread you haven't brought anything to the table to support your claims other than attempts at sarcasm and belittling. Additionally you don't even seem to understand what the ruling even does or addresses other than what you want to believe it does. :rolleyes: Schlzm

 
I am going to dig in my heels that the net neutrality ruling looks out for those who don't have the options available to them, nevermind having to deal with contract termination disputes or other potential issues. You seem hellbent on finding a way to make this ruling out to be some tyrannical move by the FCC when it simply isn't, and the only backup you have to this mindset is pure speculation while myself and others have provided evidence as to not only the actual ruling and what it does but how it is a net positive for both consumer and company alike alongside the driving factors behind it. Also this false theory that because a provider can no longer perform traffic shaping, throttling or disconnection of service on the fly without having it predefined in their contract has been pulled out of thin air with absolutely no factual support.

Schlzm
Much like the theory that the internet wasn't free and open before Net Neutrality and the benevolent FCC stepped in. :lol: It really comes down to an ideological view. Those that want the government to protect them from private industry and those that prefer the government stay out of the way and let the market decide itself. Government intervention is needed in certain situations where a major problem has occured that is affecting a vast majority of people where logistically, private industry couldn't handle it. This is nowhere near that level.
Only because you have refused to apparently even view th evidence provided. Out of everyone in this thread you haven't brought anything to the table to support your claims other than attempts at sarcasm and belittling. Additionally you don't even seem to understand what the ruling even does or addresses other than what you want to believe it does. :) Schlzm
Evidence? All Ive seen from you is the allegations that comcast was attempting to receive an increased fee from clients that were drastically exceeding the bandwidth that was previously agreed upon. A contract dispute between 2 private parties. This hardly dictates that the federal government's intervention into an area for the good of the people to keep the internet "open and free." Then you try to dispute other posters showing you that there is private competition up and coming as well as currently available. I'm by far the last person to defend Comcast because they are blood sucking leaches. I'm no big fan of Verizon either but the government is a thousand times worse in efficiency than anything those companies can impede. This ruling does NOTHING to protect the people from the telecoms. If the telecoms wanted to do what has been alleged, they could at any time and have had the ability to do so since the late 90's. Yet they haven't. What benefit does it give them in the long term to place a stranglehold on the internet and slow it down for their customers? Thats why they haven't done that.

So all this ruling has done is established a precedent that the FCC can tell the telecoms what to do regarding internet distribution. Right now its only bandwidth amounts. How do you not see how easily that can goto content advisory from there?

 
I am going to dig in my heels that the net neutrality ruling looks out for those who don't have the options available to them, nevermind having to deal with contract termination disputes or other potential issues. You seem hellbent on finding a way to make this ruling out to be some tyrannical move by the FCC when it simply isn't, and the only backup you have to this mindset is pure speculation while myself and others have provided evidence as to not only the actual ruling and what it does but how it is a net positive for both consumer and company alike alongside the driving factors behind it. Also this false theory that because a provider can no longer perform traffic shaping, throttling or disconnection of service on the fly without having it predefined in their contract has been pulled out of thin air with absolutely no factual support.

Schlzm
Much like the theory that the internet wasn't free and open before Net Neutrality and the benevolent FCC stepped in. :thumbup: It really comes down to an ideological view. Those that want the government to protect them from private industry and those that prefer the government stay out of the way and let the market decide itself. Government intervention is needed in certain situations where a major problem has occured that is affecting a vast majority of people where logistically, private industry couldn't handle it. This is nowhere near that level.
Only because you have refused to apparently even view th evidence provided. Out of everyone in this thread you haven't brought anything to the table to support your claims other than attempts at sarcasm and belittling. Additionally you don't even seem to understand what the ruling even does or addresses other than what you want to believe it does. :( Schlzm
Evidence? All Ive seen from you is the allegations that comcast was attempting to receive an increased fee from clients that were drastically exceeding the bandwidth that was previously agreed upon. A contract dispute between 2 private parties. This hardly dictates that the federal government's intervention into an area for the good of the people to keep the internet "open and free." Then you try to dispute other posters showing you that there is private competition up and coming as well as currently available. I'm by far the last person to defend Comcast because they are blood sucking leaches. I'm no big fan of Verizon either but the government is a thousand times worse in efficiency than anything those companies can impede. This ruling does NOTHING to protect the people from the telecoms. If the telecoms wanted to do what has been alleged, they could at any time and have had the ability to do so since the late 90's. Yet they haven't. What benefit does it give them in the long term to place a stranglehold on the internet and slow it down for their customers? Thats why they haven't done that.

So all this ruling has done is established a precedent that the FCC can tell the telecoms what to do regarding internet distribution. Right now its only bandwidth amounts. How do you not see how easily that can goto content advisory from there?
You have amazing skills of comprehension, selective viewing and living up to your username. Schlzm

 
By JOHN FUNDThe Federal Communications Commission's new "net neutrality" rules, passed on a partisan 3-2 vote yesterday, represent a huge win for a slick lobbying campaign run by liberal activist groups and foundations. The losers are likely to be consumers who will see innovation and investment chilled by regulations that treat the Internet like a public utility.There's little evidence the public is demanding these rules, which purport to stop the non-problem of phone and cable companies blocking access to websites and interfering with Internet traffic. Over 300 House and Senate members have signed a letter opposing FCC Internet regulation, and there will undoubtedly be even less support in the next Congress.The FCC has approved rules that would give the federal government authority to regulate Internet traffic and prevent broadband providers from selectively blocking web traffic. WSJ's Amy Schatz explains what the new rules really mean.Yet President Obama, long an ardent backer of net neutrality, is ignoring both Congress and adverse court rulings, especially by a federal appeals court in April that the agency doesn't have the power to enforce net neutrality. He is seeking to impose his will on the Internet through the executive branch. FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski, a former law school friend of Mr. Obama, has worked closely with the White House on the issue. Official visitor logs show he's had at least 11 personal meetings with the president.The net neutrality vision for government regulation of the Internet began with the work of Robert McChesney, a University of Illinois communications professor who founded the liberal lobby Free Press in 2002. Mr. McChesney's agenda? "At the moment, the battle over network neutrality is not to completely eliminate the telephone and cable companies," he told the website SocialistProject in 2009. "But the ultimate goal is to get rid of the media capitalists in the phone and cable companies and to divest them from control."A year earlier, Mr. McChesney wrote in the Marxist journal Monthly Review that "any serious effort to reform the media system would have to necessarily be part of a revolutionary program to overthrow the capitalist system itself." Mr. McChesney told me in an interview that some of his comments have been "taken out of context." He acknowledged that he is a socialist and said he was "hesitant to say I'm not a Marxist."More * Internet Gets New Rules * Opinion: The FCC's Threat to Internet Freedom For a man with such radical views, Mr. McChesney and his Free Press group have had astonishing influence. Mr. Genachowski's press secretary at the FCC, Jen Howard, used to handle media relations at Free Press. The FCC's chief diversity officer, Mark Lloyd, co-authored a Free Press report calling for regulation of political talk radio.Free Press has been funded by a network of liberal foundations that helped the lobby invent the purported problem that net neutrality is supposed to solve. They then fashioned a political strategy similar to the one employed by activists behind the political speech restrictions of the 2002 McCain-Feingold campaign-finance reform bill. The methods of that earlier campaign were discussed in 2004 by Sean Treglia, a former program officer for the Pew Charitable Trusts, during a talk at the University of Southern California. Far from being the efforts of genuine grass-roots activists, Mr. Treglia noted, the campaign-finance reform lobby was controlled and funded by foundations like Pew."The idea was to create an impression that a mass movement was afoot," he told his audience. He noted that "If Congress thought this was a Pew effort, it'd be worthless." A study by the Political Money Line, a nonpartisan website dealing with issues of campaign funding, found that of the $140 million spent to directly promote campaign-finance reform in the last decade, $123 million came from eight liberal foundations.View Full ImagefundMartin KozlowskifundfundAfter McCain-Feingold passed, several of the foundations involved in the effort began shifting their attention to "media reform"—a movement to impose government controls on Internet companies somewhat related to the long-defunct "Fairness Doctrine" that used to regulate TV and radio companies. In a 2005 interview with the progressive website Buzzflash, Mr. McChesney said that campaign-finance reform advocate Josh Silver approached him and "said let's get to work on getting popular involvement in media policy making." Together the two founded Free Press.Free Press and allied groups such as MoveOn.org quickly got funding. Of the eight major foundations that provided the vast bulk of money for campaign-finance reform, six became major funders of the media-reform movement. (They are the Pew Charitable Trusts, Bill Moyers's Schumann Center for Media and Democracy, the Joyce Foundation, George Soros's Open Society Institute, the Ford Foundation, and the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation.) Free Press today has 40 staffers and an annual budget of $4 million.These wealthy funders pay for more than publicity and conferences. In 2009, Free Press commissioned a poll, released by the Harmony Institute, on net neutrality. Harmony reported that "more than 50% of the public argued that, as a private resource, the Internet should not be regulated by the federal government." The poll went on to say that since "currently the public likes the way the Internet works . . . messaging should target supporters by asking them to act vigilantly" to prevent a "centrally controlled Internet."To that end, Free Press and other groups helped manufacture "research" on net neutrality. In 2009, for example, the FCC commissioned Harvard University's Berkman Center for Internet and Society to conduct an "independent review of existing information" for the agency in order to "lay the foundation for enlightened, data-driven decision making."Considering how openly activist the Berkman Center has been on these issues, it was an odd decision for the FCC to delegate its broadband research to this outfit. Unless, of course, the FCC already knew the answer it wanted to get.The Berkman Center's FCC- commissioned report, "Next Generation Connectivity," wound up being funded in large part by the Ford and MacArthur foundations. So some of the same foundations that have spent years funding net neutrality advocacy research ended up funding the FCC-commissioned study that evaluated net neutrality research.The FCC's "National Broadband Plan," released last spring, included only five citations of respected think tanks such as the International Technology and Innovation Foundation or the Brookings Institution. But the report cited research from liberal groups such as Free Press, Public Knowledge, Pew and the New America Foundation more than 50 times.So the "media reform" movement paid for research that backed its views, paid activists to promote the research, saw its allies installed in the FCC and other key agencies, and paid for the FCC research that evaluated the research they had already paid for. Now they have their policy. That's quite a coup.Mr. Fund is a columnist for WSJ.com.
 
http://arstechnica.com/telecom/news/2011/03/wimax-throttling-lawsuit-clearwire-cant-deliver-the-goods.ars

Wireless operator Clearwire has had a bumpy few months, and now things are getting worse. A lawsuit has been filed by 15 users over the company's throttling practices, accusing Clearwire of not delivering advertised "high-speed Internet" services to customers and charging them termination fees when they walk away unsatisfied. The group even says that Clearwire is engaging in a Ponzi scheme by selling service that it can't deliver in hopes of raking in enough money later to build out its network.
:whistle:
 
http://arstechnica.com/telecom/news/2011/03/wimax-throttling-lawsuit-clearwire-cant-deliver-the-goods.ars

Wireless operator Clearwire has had a bumpy few months, and now things are getting worse. A lawsuit has been filed by 15 users over the company's throttling practices, accusing Clearwire of not delivering advertised "high-speed Internet" services to customers and charging them termination fees when they walk away unsatisfied. The group even says that Clearwire is engaging in a Ponzi scheme by selling service that it can't deliver in hopes of raking in enough money later to build out its network.
:whistle:
1. This isn't about Net Neutrality.2. It's being dealt with through legal means that existed before the Net Neutrality rules, just like Comcast.3. It goes to highlight that it's going to cost a lot more money to met the demand of heavy users and guess who's going to pay for that?
 
http://arstechnica.com/telecom/news/2011/03/wimax-throttling-lawsuit-clearwire-cant-deliver-the-goods.ars

Wireless operator Clearwire has had a bumpy few months, and now things are getting worse. A lawsuit has been filed by 15 users over the company's throttling practices, accusing Clearwire of not delivering advertised "high-speed Internet" services to customers and charging them termination fees when they walk away unsatisfied. The group even says that Clearwire is engaging in a Ponzi scheme by selling service that it can't deliver in hopes of raking in enough money later to build out its network.
:whistle:
1. This isn't about Net Neutrality.2. It's being dealt with through legal means that existed before the Net Neutrality rules, just like Comcast.3. It goes to highlight that it's going to cost a lot more money to met the demand of heavy users and guess who's going to pay for that?
Clearwire/WiMax was one of your shining gems of alternate high speed internet access and they are now screwing their customers via bandwidth throttling and then attempting to penalize those who are dropping the service due to a failure to meet the contractual agreement. Yes this is being tackled in a court of law, but without the net neutrality arguments how much coverage would this have gotten do you honestly think?Schlzm
 
So, how does this affect me being able to download rather large movies...?
We could have a porn-free internet before you know it.
I live in a medium sized town. I have only one internet provider available to me (other than dial-up).The cable/internet company blocks all pornography from the internet. They also sent me a letter last month that I had exceeded my allowed internet useage during January and that they would be forced to cancel my service if it continued to do so....
 
http://arstechnica.com/telecom/news/2011/03/wimax-throttling-lawsuit-clearwire-cant-deliver-the-goods.ars

Wireless operator Clearwire has had a bumpy few months, and now things are getting worse. A lawsuit has been filed by 15 users over the company's throttling practices, accusing Clearwire of not delivering advertised "high-speed Internet" services to customers and charging them termination fees when they walk away unsatisfied. The group even says that Clearwire is engaging in a Ponzi scheme by selling service that it can't deliver in hopes of raking in enough money later to build out its network.
:whistle:
1. This isn't about Net Neutrality.2. It's being dealt with through legal means that existed before the Net Neutrality rules, just like Comcast.3. It goes to highlight that it's going to cost a lot more money to met the demand of heavy users and guess who's going to pay for that?
Clearwire/WiMax was one of your shining gems of alternate high speed internet access and they are now screwing their customers via bandwidth throttling and then attempting to penalize those who are dropping the service due to a failure to meet the contractual agreement. Yes this is being tackled in a court of law, but without the net neutrality arguments how much coverage would this have gotten do you honestly think?Schlzm
I'm not seeing the net neutrality violation here. if Clearwire were throttling bandwidth to specific sites, I see your point. But it sounds like they're throttling everything.
 
http://arstechnica.com/telecom/news/2011/03/wimax-throttling-lawsuit-clearwire-cant-deliver-the-goods.ars

Wireless operator Clearwire has had a bumpy few months, and now things are getting worse. A lawsuit has been filed by 15 users over the company's throttling practices, accusing Clearwire of not delivering advertised "high-speed Internet" services to customers and charging them termination fees when they walk away unsatisfied. The group even says that Clearwire is engaging in a Ponzi scheme by selling service that it can't deliver in hopes of raking in enough money later to build out its network.
:whistle:
1. This isn't about Net Neutrality.2. It's being dealt with through legal means that existed before the Net Neutrality rules, just like Comcast.3. It goes to highlight that it's going to cost a lot more money to met the demand of heavy users and guess who's going to pay for that?
Clearwire/WiMax was one of your shining gems of alternate high speed internet access and they are now screwing their customers via bandwidth throttling and then attempting to penalize those who are dropping the service due to a failure to meet the contractual agreement. Yes this is being tackled in a court of law, but without the net neutrality arguments how much coverage would this have gotten do you honestly think?Schlzm
I'm not seeing the net neutrality violation here. if Clearwire were throttling bandwidth to specific sites, I see your point. But it sounds like they're throttling everything.
This particular case is more a false advertising or contractual failure issue. However Guderian was touting this exact service as an alternative to other carriers involved in activities that drove the net neutrality debate. Really the only reason why I popped it up here, that just because someone claims to have a viable option doesn't mean it actually is. See George's above post as well.Schlzm
 
So, how does this affect me being able to download rather large movies...?
We could have a porn-free internet before you know it.
I live in a medium sized town. I have only one internet provider available to me (other than dial-up).The cable/internet company blocks all pornography from the internet. They also sent me a letter last month that I had exceeded my allowed internet useage during January and that they would be forced to cancel my service if it continued to do so....
I seriously doubt there is only one non-dialup option available to you. None of the phone companies offer DSL? You can't get a satellite dish?
 
Back to the FCC, my issue with them doing anything in this area is one of the slippery slope principle. Once they've asserted their ability to regulate in this area and it goes unchallenged, I think it's a short step for them to go the next step and tell the carriers that they must block/deprioritize/report certain sites (e.g. gambling, drugs, etc.).
It seems your concerns over the FCC creating a slippery slope were partially valid. However it was DHS and BATFE who decided to pick winners and losers in their free-for-all lockdown of sites recently.Schlzm
 
This particular case is more a false advertising or contractual failure issue. However Guderian was touting this exact service as an alternative to other carriers involved in activities that drove the net neutrality debate. Really the only reason why I popped it up here, that just because someone claims to have a viable option doesn't mean it actually is. See George's above post as well.Schlzm
There are multiple options. Some are great, some are good, some aren't so good, depending on each customer's specific needs. This particular option appears to be not so good for these specific customers. I'm not seeing how this is terribly different from most other products.I think Pepsi tastes terrible, which makes it not a very good option for me. That doesn't make Coke a monopoly.
 
Back to the FCC, my issue with them doing anything in this area is one of the slippery slope principle. Once they've asserted their ability to regulate in this area and it goes unchallenged, I think it's a short step for them to go the next step and tell the carriers that they must block/deprioritize/report certain sites (e.g. gambling, drugs, etc.).
It seems your concerns over the FCC creating a slippery slope were partially valid. However it was DHS and BATFE who decided to pick winners and losers in their free-for-all lockdown of sites recently.Schlzm
Yeah, don't get me started on DHS and abuse of regulatory powers...
 
So, how does this affect me being able to download rather large movies...?
We could have a porn-free internet before you know it.
I live in a medium sized town. I have only one internet provider available to me (other than dial-up).The cable/internet company blocks all pornography from the internet. They also sent me a letter last month that I had exceeded my allowed internet useage during January and that they would be forced to cancel my service if it continued to do so....
I seriously doubt there is only one non-dialup option available to you. None of the phone companies offer DSL? You can't get a satellite dish?
Not through the phone company. Sattelite is an option.
 
This particular case is more a false advertising or contractual failure issue. However Guderian was touting this exact service as an alternative to other carriers involved in activities that drove the net neutrality debate. Really the only reason why I popped it up here, that just because someone claims to have a viable option doesn't mean it actually is. See George's above post as well.Schlzm
There are multiple options. Some are great, some are good, some aren't so good, depending on each customer's specific needs. This particular option appears to be not so good for these specific customers. I'm not seeing how this is terribly different from most other products.I think Pepsi tastes terrible, which makes it not a very good option for me. That doesn't make Coke a monopoly.
True enough however Pepsi doesn't try and fine you when you decide that 20oz tastes like garbage and toss it in the trash to go buy a Coke. I noted that the ClearWire issue isn't really a net neutrality battle. Also just because there are a host of crappy options available to me other than my cable internet doesn't mean the cable provider should be able to up and turn my access off on a whim because they decided this month playing SC-II on battle.net is too much cybertubing for one person.Schlzm
 
http://arstechnica.com/telecom/news/2011/03/wimax-throttling-lawsuit-clearwire-cant-deliver-the-goods.ars

Wireless operator Clearwire has had a bumpy few months, and now things are getting worse. A lawsuit has been filed by 15 users over the company's throttling practices, accusing Clearwire of not delivering advertised "high-speed Internet" services to customers and charging them termination fees when they walk away unsatisfied. The group even says that Clearwire is engaging in a Ponzi scheme by selling service that it can't deliver in hopes of raking in enough money later to build out its network.
:whistle:
1. This isn't about Net Neutrality.2. It's being dealt with through legal means that existed before the Net Neutrality rules, just like Comcast.3. It goes to highlight that it's going to cost a lot more money to met the demand of heavy users and guess who's going to pay for that?
Clearwire/WiMax was one of your shining gems of alternate high speed internet access and they are now screwing their customers via bandwidth throttling and then attempting to penalize those who are dropping the service due to a failure to meet the contractual agreement. Yes this is being tackled in a court of law, but without the net neutrality arguments how much coverage would this have gotten do you honestly think?Schlzm
I'm not seeing the net neutrality violation here. if Clearwire were throttling bandwidth to specific sites, I see your point. But it sounds like they're throttling everything.
This particular case is more a false advertising or contractual failure issue. However Guderian was touting this exact service as an alternative to other carriers involved in activities that drove the net neutrality debate. Really the only reason why I popped it up here, that just because someone claims to have a viable option doesn't mean it actually is. See George's above post as well.Schlzm
So really, this isn't about net neutrality, but about you "getting one" on guderian. Got it.
 
http://arstechnica.com/telecom/news/2011/03/wimax-throttling-lawsuit-clearwire-cant-deliver-the-goods.ars

Wireless operator Clearwire has had a bumpy few months, and now things are getting worse. A lawsuit has been filed by 15 users over the company's throttling practices, accusing Clearwire of not delivering advertised "high-speed Internet" services to customers and charging them termination fees when they walk away unsatisfied. The group even says that Clearwire is engaging in a Ponzi scheme by selling service that it can't deliver in hopes of raking in enough money later to build out its network.
:whistle:
1. This isn't about Net Neutrality.2. It's being dealt with through legal means that existed before the Net Neutrality rules, just like Comcast.3. It goes to highlight that it's going to cost a lot more money to met the demand of heavy users and guess who's going to pay for that?
Clearwire/WiMax was one of your shining gems of alternate high speed internet access and they are now screwing their customers via bandwidth throttling and then attempting to penalize those who are dropping the service due to a failure to meet the contractual agreement. Yes this is being tackled in a court of law, but without the net neutrality arguments how much coverage would this have gotten do you honestly think?Schlzm
I'm not seeing the net neutrality violation here. if Clearwire were throttling bandwidth to specific sites, I see your point. But it sounds like they're throttling everything.
This particular case is more a false advertising or contractual failure issue. However Guderian was touting this exact service as an alternative to other carriers involved in activities that drove the net neutrality debate. Really the only reason why I popped it up here, that just because someone claims to have a viable option doesn't mean it actually is. See George's above post as well.Schlzm
So really, this isn't about net neutrality, but about you "getting one" on guderian. Got it.
Mostly that but also to point out that if the debate had never existed these types of issues wouldn't be as widely reported on or even known to most customers as something to be on the look out for.Schlzm
 
This particular case is more a false advertising or contractual failure issue. However Guderian was touting this exact service as an alternative to other carriers involved in activities that drove the net neutrality debate. Really the only reason why I popped it up here, that just because someone claims to have a viable option doesn't mean it actually is. See George's above post as well.Schlzm
There are multiple options. Some are great, some are good, some aren't so good, depending on each customer's specific needs. This particular option appears to be not so good for these specific customers. I'm not seeing how this is terribly different from most other products.I think Pepsi tastes terrible, which makes it not a very good option for me. That doesn't make Coke a monopoly.
True enough however Pepsi doesn't try and fine you when you decide that 20oz tastes like garbage and toss it in the trash to go buy a Coke. I noted that the ClearWire issue isn't really a net neutrality battle. Also just because there are a host of crappy options available to me other than my cable internet doesn't mean the cable provider should be able to up and turn my access off on a whim because they decided this month playing SC-II on battle.net is too much cybertubing for one person.Schlzm
Correct. They shouldn't be able to turn your access off on a whim at all, and I assume they'd be in breach of contract if they do.
 
This particular case is more a false advertising or contractual failure issue. However Guderian was touting this exact service as an alternative to other carriers involved in activities that drove the net neutrality debate. Really the only reason why I popped it up here, that just because someone claims to have a viable option doesn't mean it actually is. See George's above post as well.

Schlzm
You mean this post:
Verizon LTE Coverage Map

AT&T HSPA Coverage Soon to be Upgrade to LTE

Clearwire/Sprint 4G (Wimax) Coverage Map (Just raised $1 B to build-out more)

T-Mobile 4G Coverage (click 'Check Your 4G Coverage')

Clearwire's just the largest of many fixed wireless providers. All of these providers are in addition to the 81% of the country that has access to 3 or more fixed line providers according to old FCC 2008 data. I've had a $40/month Verizon 3G data card since 2005 and I was able to use it in some pretty small towns since then.

That will all pretty much cover 80-90% of the US. If you want to live 10 miles from the nearest town, you've already accepted the trade-offs so you shouldn't expect to have numerous options for speedy Internet service.

I'd guess that at least 80% of the people in the US will have at least 5 options for high speed Internet access by the end of 2011. This Net Neutrality is a solution in search of a problem.
or This one?
You seem to be dug in pretty hard on this issue, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you want to have 100% geographical coverage of the US I'm guessing it would probably cost north of $1 trillion. Even if you casually dismiss Verizon, T-Mobile and Clearwire's 4G coverage as one-third to half of the country you're missing several points:

1. This is 4G and 3G has coverage of 80-90% of the population.

2. These networks are in the process of being rolled out and 4G coverage of half of the country now means 70-80% by the end of 2011.

3. These coverage maps aren't 100% over-lapping. If you don't get T-Mobile 3G at your house, then use someone else. If you live somewhere where there's only 1 fixed wireline provider (<2% of the US per old FCC data) and there aren't any 3G wireless options, then you're already living somewhere where you've accepted limited access to services.

So far I've given you hard stats that show:

1. 81% of the country has accessed to 3 or more fixed line broadband providers.

2. 80-90% of the country already has access to at least one 3G provider. I've used it in non-urban/suburban areas of Texas, California, Michigan, Alabama, etc. Heck, I used it in Orange, Texas back in 2005.

3. At least half of the country CURRENTLY has access to at least one 4G provider.

If you're going to continue to just dig your heels in and adamantly argue that any significant portion of the population has access to only 1 or 2 options, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. :lmao:

Enjoy your government regulated Internet. I'm sure it will be much freer, more open, cheaper and speedier than it is now. :blackdot: I'm also sure it will be more ubiquitous because the big telecom providers were surely waiting for government regulation to invest in further expanding their networks into all of these places where you say there aren't any options.
So you find one negative article about one company three months after we were debating this and you think you've proven something???
 
Here is the very real impact of Net Neutrality regulations...

AT&T to Fit Subs With Broadband Caps

AT&T Inc. (NYSE: T) is following in the footsteps of some of its cable competitors by installing monthly broadband consumption caps designed to keep bandwidth hogs in check.

AT&T will impose a new, monthly 150GB cap on all DSL customers and a 250GB cap on all U-verse subscribers starting May 2. AT&T will be alerting customers of the new terms of service between March 18 and March 31, according to DSL Reports.

AT&T is also looking to impose penalty charges on customers who regularly exceed the cap, but is stopping short of implementing a full metering policy on broadband services. The carrier will reportedly charge US$10 for every 50GB above the usage threshold, but has inserted a grace period of sorts as it will only ding customers if they exceed the new caps three times. As it does for wireless plans, the carrier will also tell customers when they reach 65 percent, 90 percent and 100 percent of their monthly allowance.

Instead of going with a tightly integrated usage-based billing model that has taken root in Canada but has historically been the cause of political and consumer firestorms in the US, AT&T is borrowing a page from some MSOs by going with a large consumption cap. Comcast Corp. (Nasdaq: CMCSA, CMCSK), for example, implemented a monthly 250GB cap on "excessive use" in October 2008, but doesn't charge customers for exceeding it. (See Comcast Draws the Line at 250GB.)

AT&T was not immediately available for additional comment.

Why this matters

The concept of metered billing in the U.S. has grown hot again following a new set of Federal Communications Commission (FCC) network neutrality rules that, some fear, could open the door to by-the-byte billing policies. Those rules may not stick, however, after a House panel voted for a bill to block them last week. (See Net Neutrality Rules in Jeopardy, The FCC Strikes Back, FCC Votes to Approve Net Neutrality Rules and Verizon Fights Net Neutrality Order.)

AT&T is clearly taking baby steps into the world of consumption caps and metered billing. It, along with Time Warner Cable Inc. (NYSE: TWC), used Beaumont, Texas, as a proving ground for metered, usage-based billing on broadband services, but pulled them back amid a highly publicized backlash. At the time, AT&T was testing out a 20GB cap on its low-end DSL package and a 150GB cap for its fastest offering, and then billing $1 for every GB consumed beyond the threshold.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top